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On October 07 2013 00:22 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 16:33 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 06 2013 02:17 IronManSC wrote:On October 05 2013 17:28 sam!zdat wrote:
none of this stuff is real. if you are going to make it matter in the modern world, if you ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT YOUR FAITH, you are going to need to make it matter EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT REAL. otherwise it is useless and you are nothing but a delusional fanatic of a dying cult If it's not real, then what's there to live for? Christians are being slaughtered for their faith and have been for centuries (even today in Kenya and Pakistan lately) -- would you die for something you knew wasn't true? "Dear friends, don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot do any more to you after that. But i'll tell you whom to fear. Fear God, who has the power to kill you and then throw you into hell. Yes, he's the one to fear." - Luke 12:4-5. There's a bit of history of Christians dying for their faith when held at the verge of death. People all throughout history have sacrificed their lives for ideas/beliefs which they personally believed to be true, but weren't necessarily actually true. Case in point - every martyr for every other religion throughout human history, combatants on both sides of every religious war (e.g. Crusades), extremist Muslim suicide bombers, or soldiers influenced by wartime government propaganda. Clearly not all of these people could have known that their beliefs were true seeing as how every religion cannot possibly be true (and some of the propaganda is provably false) - rather, they believed that they knew that their beliefs were true, which is simply an extension of the actual belief itself. Also, does there have to be something to live for? Personally I think "not being dead" is a perfectly valid reason to want to be alive. On October 06 2013 02:17 IronManSC wrote:
You receive God-given faith when you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins. When you believe, you receive the Holy Spirit, who comforts you, guides you, teaches you, and assures you of eternal life.
How is this in any way distinguishable from your own thoughts/conscience? My point with the death thing was that despite how odd Christianity is to people, and how "blind faith" it may appear to others, there's more to the faith than what you see. The secular world says you have to learn it and see it to believe. It's about believing and then seeing and learning. As previously mentioned, the faith itself is God-given. We don't just believe it and then let our carnal mind take over. It's not of this world, and it's not carnal, it's supernatural.
Then your belief will necessarily color your experience and your learning, leading everything to reinforce your belief even more. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and there will be no way out as long as you continue to follow this path.
I don't think that the secular world says that you have to learn it and see it to believe. I think the secular world (or rather, I, since I can only speak for myself ...) simply asks you to not refuse yourself learning because of your faith. After all, if your faith is true, there is no question of your faith, and so what harm does it do to expose yourself to other approaches towards the text?
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On October 07 2013 04:40 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 00:22 IronManSC wrote:On October 06 2013 16:33 -NegativeZero- wrote:On October 06 2013 02:17 IronManSC wrote:On October 05 2013 17:28 sam!zdat wrote:
none of this stuff is real. if you are going to make it matter in the modern world, if you ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT YOUR FAITH, you are going to need to make it matter EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT REAL. otherwise it is useless and you are nothing but a delusional fanatic of a dying cult If it's not real, then what's there to live for? Christians are being slaughtered for their faith and have been for centuries (even today in Kenya and Pakistan lately) -- would you die for something you knew wasn't true? "Dear friends, don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot do any more to you after that. But i'll tell you whom to fear. Fear God, who has the power to kill you and then throw you into hell. Yes, he's the one to fear." - Luke 12:4-5. There's a bit of history of Christians dying for their faith when held at the verge of death. People all throughout history have sacrificed their lives for ideas/beliefs which they personally believed to be true, but weren't necessarily actually true. Case in point - every martyr for every other religion throughout human history, combatants on both sides of every religious war (e.g. Crusades), extremist Muslim suicide bombers, or soldiers influenced by wartime government propaganda. Clearly not all of these people could have known that their beliefs were true seeing as how every religion cannot possibly be true (and some of the propaganda is provably false) - rather, they believed that they knew that their beliefs were true, which is simply an extension of the actual belief itself. Also, does there have to be something to live for? Personally I think "not being dead" is a perfectly valid reason to want to be alive. On October 06 2013 02:17 IronManSC wrote:
You receive God-given faith when you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins. When you believe, you receive the Holy Spirit, who comforts you, guides you, teaches you, and assures you of eternal life.
How is this in any way distinguishable from your own thoughts/conscience? My point with the death thing was that despite how odd Christianity is to people, and how "blind faith" it may appear to others, there's more to the faith than what you see. The secular world says you have to learn it and see it to believe. It's about believing and then seeing and learning. As previously mentioned, the faith itself is God-given. We don't just believe it and then let our carnal mind take over. It's not of this world, and it's not carnal, it's supernatural. Then your belief will necessarily color your experience and your learning, leading everything to reinforce your belief even more. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and there will be no way out as long as you continue to follow this path. I don't think that the secular world says that you have to learn it and see it to believe. I think the secular world (or rather, I, since I can only speak for myself ...) simply asks you to not refuse yourself learning because of your faith. After all, if your faith is true, there is no question of your faith, and so what harm does it do to expose yourself to other approaches towards the text?
Exactly this - "believing and then seeing" is a prime example of confirmation bias. Everyone wants to be correct, so people with pre-existing beliefs tend to subconsciously interpret or twist information so it suits their beliefs, or selectively focus on information which supports their beliefs while ignoring information that contradicts it. What religious people might see as "God-given faith" may in fact simply be the act of looking at the world through the lens of their particular religion and interpreting what they see to be consistent with that religion.
The only way to look at information objectively is to disregard all personal biases and draw your conclusions only from the information you gather - in essence, the basis of the scientific method.
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On October 06 2013 02:17 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 17:28 sam!zdat wrote:
you think the spiritual content of christianity is some ridiculous myth about how jesus is the son of god and is going to make you live forever because you believe this absurd thing? that's what you think is the sum total of the value of your tradition? god, that's so disrespectful You receive God-given faith when you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins. When you believe, you receive the Holy Spirit, who comforts you, guides you, teaches you, and assures you of eternal life. We live by faith, not by sight - trusting God in who he is, what he did for us on the cross, and what he promised to those who love him. As plainly as I can make it, if you accept Jesus, you have eternal life, so yes he will let you live forever because that was God's original plan from the beginning. That's why he made us in the first place: to live with God, but we rebelled by sinning. Therefore, God, who is perfect, laid down his life to pay our death penalty for sin, and through Christ we find forgiveness of sins and can be made right with God through Jesus. God does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to live, so he made a way and is offering it to everybody. Why do we Christians do what we do (life of gratitude)? Because of what Christ did for us. Why do we Christians love Jesus? Because he first loved us. "When were were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. Now, most people would not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good. But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners." - Romans 5:6-8 This is the context behind spiritual truth, but hey I don't know about what kind of sandals they wore, the names of the Pharisees, or the customs of that day, so I guess all of this is invalid because I am somehow "disrespecting historical context." Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 17:28 sam!zdat wrote:
the historical context that you ignore is THE ENTIRE HISTORICAL CONTEXT OF THE ENTIRE ANCIENT WORLD Again I ask, what specific context am I ignoring? "The entire historical context of the entire ancient world" is not a specific answer. You're just spouting out insults. What did I ignore or disrespect and in what regard?
Do you believe that John, the named apostle, is identical with the writer of the Gospel of John? By the way, where in the Bible does it say that the "one whom Jesus loved" is identical with John? That's just a guess that has become accepted in some church mythologies.
More importantly, do you think it matters whether the writer of the Gospel of John is identical with the apostle named John?
The context that you are ignoring is that there were a number of apocalyptic prophets wandering around the ancient world at the same time as Jesus. The Gospel of John was the last gospel to be written and displays numerous inconsistencies with the synoptic gospels and a much different theology, that isn't seen in the other gospels. If you were familiar with Plato and the platonists that followed him, you would see a lot of similarities between the theological teachings in John and the philosophical ideas of the platonists and the neoplatonists who emerged around the same time as the early church began to spread throughout the east.
The problem with your interpretation of the bibles is that you are cross-referencing other gospels when explaining the meaning of the one you are currently reading. It's bad practice to interpret the historical validity of Mark by referring to John, an author who wrote much later, was very likely from a different cultural milieu, and had a very different agenda. So when Sam says that you are reading an afterlife into the gospels, that's what he is talking about. You are taking quotes from John, out of historical context, and saying that they apply to Mark and Matthew, arguably gospels that are closer to the message that Jesus himself actually preached. You would have a much tougher time making the case that the early Christians believed in an afterlife if you restricted your analysis to one Gospel/author at a time, and focused on the synoptic gospels.
The sectarians that included the author of John were one of many smaller groups of Christians who each had very different theologies, including very different christologies (beliefs about the nature of Christ) and eschatologies (beliefs about the nature of the apocalypse/death/afterlife). You are ignoring the conflict between these different groups and their competing interpretations of Jesus' message, mostly because you don't even know what early Christianity looked like. What's your understanding of how Christianity developed and spread? Have you thought about it?
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I guess you don't have an interest in discussing the historicity of the Bible.
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On October 09 2013 11:22 IgnE wrote:
I guess you don't have an interest in discussing the historicity of the Bible.
I believe you missed this part of the OP:
I don't expect non-Christians to participate but, you may if you are open minded...
He said nothing of any requirement on his part about being open minded. To be fair, that was at least stated from the outset...
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Terrible. Stuff you're saying:
* God is intolerant to people having fun. If you enjoy skateboarding, he breaks your arm until you do exactly as he says. What a terrible God to have.
* Using your other arm instead of your main arm turns you from an idiot to a smart kid over a month. Wow, you should tell educators that.
* Being in a skateboard accident because you're terrible at skating is comparable to being in a car accident where you lose your loved ones and survive on your own. It's just Gods way of telling you to do as he pleases.
I know you mean this blog to be inspiring to people of faith... but honestly, I can't help but feel terribly sad for people who believe like this.
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On October 09 2013 15:39 Tobberoth wrote:Terrible. Stuff you're saying: * God is intolerant to people having fun. If you enjoy skateboarding, he breaks your arm until you do exactly as he says. What a terrible God to have. * Using your other arm instead of your main arm turns you from an idiot to a smart kid over a month. Wow, you should tell educators that. * Being in a skateboard accident because you're terrible at skating is comparable to being in a car accident where you lose your loved ones and survive on your own. It's just Gods way of telling you to do as he pleases. I know you mean this blog to be inspiring to people of faith... but honestly, I can't help but feel terribly sad for people who believe like this.
If you don't want to be apart of it, then don't read any of it?
You are using a carnal interpretation of my accident. There's a difference between having fun (a hobby) and actually worshiping it by means of letting it consume your every day life to a point where you have no time, or desire, to sit down and spend time with God. It's called an idol, which is anything that takes God's place as #1 - whatever is most important to you in life. The first commandment is "You shall have no other gods before me."
Also, you think this is God's way of forcing me to do as he pleases, and yet there were blessings/good things that came from it: passing grades, caring much more about the rest of my school years, and having the friends I do now (If I was a year behind, I wouldn't be hanging out with my current friends).
Did you know that each side of your brain actually does different things?
http://www.livescience.com/32935-whats-the-difference-between-the-right-brain-and-left-brain.html
I didn't say I became a "smart kid" in a month, nor was I an idiot (why the name calling?), but that I was using a part of my brain that I hadn't used before which somehow triggered my capabilities to improve in school relatively fast. This is not rocket science.
Following God doesn't guarantee prosperity or safety in life. If it did, people would only believe in God to become wealthy and healthy. He can certainly bless you richly if he wants, but it's a tough road of faith where God wants us to trust in his promises and love, and he tests and refines our faith through trials; big or small. When something bad happens, where do you ultimately place your hope and trust to keep going forward?
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On October 09 2013 11:22 IgnE wrote:
I guess you don't have an interest in discussing the historicity of the Bible.
3 reasons.
1) In all honesty I could answer it with what I know, but I am not a historian or a theologian, so I don't feel qualified to go into that subject.
2) More or less, I've been busy lately with work and planning a proposal in the next month, so I haven't had too much time to check TL.
3) I'm sort of burned out on all the discussions so far. They're not leading to anything good, and they are mostly people who just try to disregard the Christian faith in any way they can with what I say. I'm not trying to convince people, i'm just telling you what I believe and what I've been assured of.
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On October 09 2013 17:00 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 15:39 Tobberoth wrote:Terrible. Stuff you're saying: * God is intolerant to people having fun. If you enjoy skateboarding, he breaks your arm until you do exactly as he says. What a terrible God to have. * Using your other arm instead of your main arm turns you from an idiot to a smart kid over a month. Wow, you should tell educators that. * Being in a skateboard accident because you're terrible at skating is comparable to being in a car accident where you lose your loved ones and survive on your own. It's just Gods way of telling you to do as he pleases. I know you mean this blog to be inspiring to people of faith... but honestly, I can't help but feel terribly sad for people who believe like this. If you don't want to be apart of it, then don't read any of it? You are using a carnal interpretation of my accident. There's a difference between having fun (a hobby) and actually worshiping it by means of letting it consume your every day life to a point where you have no time, or desire, to sit down and spend time with God. It's called an idol, which is anything that takes God's place as #1 - whatever is most important to you in life. The first commandment is "You shall have no other gods before me." Also, you think this is God's way of forcing me to do as he pleases, and yet there were blessings/good things that came from it: passing grades, caring much more about the rest of my school years, and having the friends I do now (If I was a year behind, I wouldn't be hanging out with my current friends). Did you know that each side of your brain actually does different things? http://www.livescience.com/32935-whats-the-difference-between-the-right-brain-and-left-brain.htmlI didn't say I became a "smart kid" in a month, nor was I an idiot (why the name calling?), but that I was using a part of my brain that I hadn't used before which somehow triggered my capabilities to improve in school relatively fast. This is not rocket science. Following God doesn't guarantee prosperity or safety in life. If it did, people would only believe in God to become wealthy and healthy. He can certainly bless you richly if he wants, but it's a tough road of faith where God wants us to trust in his promises and love, and he tests and refines our faith through trials; big or small. When something bad happens, where do you ultimately place your hope and trust to keep going forward?
The first commandment should obviously be "You shall have no other gods, which includes dumb temporary hobbies like skateboarding, beside me or I'll hurt you badly instead of using my devine power to make you realize this yourself, because I prefer hurting people". Doesn't matter if good things come of it, an omnipotent being doesn't have to go to such lengths to harm you to have good things happen to you, and regardless, what about that sweet freedom?
I'd say going from about to have to redo a year (close enough to being an idiot from my experience, though I use that word lightly) to having decent grades in a month is more than just "using the other side of your brain". Believe it or not, you use both sides of your brain all the time. Seems more logical to me that you would consider this improvement an act of god rather than changing which arm you write with.
I place my hope and trust in my humanity. I have a drive to go forward, to improve myself. I also know why accidents happen, without having to connect it to the will of a mean omnipotent being, so I can handle misfortune rationally. If I fall off my skateboard, instead of blaming it on God telling me not to skate, I would blame my own inadequacy at skateboard and either stop doing it because I didn't want to put in the time, or work at it harder.
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I wrote out a big reply for this thread but its just a lost cause, i urge the rest of you to leave him be and carry on your seperate ways. There is little to no support for his views and opinions here anyway and i dont know how popular his blog is but that should pretty much confirm anything you have to say before posting. He does no harm and he's entitled to those opinions, but there is zero point arguing
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i wonder why he didnt also break your right arm aswell when you had to change ur masturbation arm
also ur "faith" is far from being "progressive"
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On October 09 2013 17:05 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 11:22 IgnE wrote:
I guess you don't have an interest in discussing the historicity of the Bible. 3 reasons. 1) In all honesty I could answer it with what I know, but I am not a historian or a theologian, so I don't feel qualified to go into that subject. 2) More or less, I've been busy lately with work and planning a proposal in the next month, so I haven't had too much time to check TL. 3) I'm sort of burned out on all the discussions so far. They're not leading to anything good, and they are mostly people who just try to disregard the Christian faith in any way they can with what I say. I'm not trying to convince people, i'm just telling you what I believe and what I've been assured of.
Do you think the historicity of the Bible matters? Do you think it has implications for what you believe?
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On October 09 2013 17:00 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 15:39 Tobberoth wrote:Terrible. Stuff you're saying: * God is intolerant to people having fun. If you enjoy skateboarding, he breaks your arm until you do exactly as he says. What a terrible God to have. * Using your other arm instead of your main arm turns you from an idiot to a smart kid over a month. Wow, you should tell educators that. * Being in a skateboard accident because you're terrible at skating is comparable to being in a car accident where you lose your loved ones and survive on your own. It's just Gods way of telling you to do as he pleases. I know you mean this blog to be inspiring to people of faith... but honestly, I can't help but feel terribly sad for people who believe like this. If you don't want to be apart of it, then don't read any of it? You are using a carnal interpretation of my accident. There's a difference between having fun (a hobby) and actually worshiping it by means of letting it consume your every day life to a point where you have no time, or desire, to sit down and spend time with God. It's called an idol, which is anything that takes God's place as #1 - whatever is most important to you in life. The first commandment is "You shall have no other gods before me." Also, you think this is God's way of forcing me to do as he pleases, and yet there were blessings/good things that came from it: passing grades, caring much more about the rest of my school years, and having the friends I do now (If I was a year behind, I wouldn't be hanging out with my current friends). Did you know that each side of your brain actually does different things? http://www.livescience.com/32935-whats-the-difference-between-the-right-brain-and-left-brain.htmlI didn't say I became a "smart kid" in a month, nor was I an idiot (why the name calling?), but that I was using a part of my brain that I hadn't used before which somehow triggered my capabilities to improve in school relatively fast. This is not rocket science. Following God doesn't guarantee prosperity or safety in life. If it did, people would only believe in God to become wealthy and healthy. He can certainly bless you richly if he wants, but it's a tough road of faith where God wants us to trust in his promises and love, and he tests and refines our faith through trials; big or small. When something bad happens, where do you ultimately place your hope and trust to keep going forward?
The problem with your blog post is that your interpretation of the event puts a Panglossian spin on everything, hearkening back to some Leibnizian theology. Pangloss from Voltaire's _Candide_ teaches people that they live in the "best of all possible worlds" and that everything that happens is the best thing that could have happened. You are taking that approach with your arm breaking.
Many things could have happened instead of your arm breaking, including your arm not breaking, and nothing significant happening. If this alternate history had happened you might very well have written a blog post recently about how failing a grade and staying behind a year was the best thing that ever happened to you and that God was speaking to you. But now, at least, you have great friends who are better than your original friends, a reinvigorated interest in your studies, and a respect for those who overcome adversity.
Or maybe instead you had met some more hardcore skaters and had gone on to become a professional skateboarder making hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. Then you may have written a blogpost about how great God is that he set up this meeting for you that led to your great success in life, and how you owe it all to him. You've learned the hard work of studying and perfecting a craft, gotten a lot of material wealth, and gotten a lot of satisfaction.
You can interpret you breaking your arm any way that you like. But God could have acted in any of an infinite number of other ways. And all the consequences of those other ways could very well have been interpreted by you to be equal to, or, far better than the real consequences of you breaking your arm. Yet somehow you want us to believe that this was God's plan for you because it was the best thing that could possibly have happened. It doesn't ring true. It doesn't even pass the sniff test.
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Ignorance is bliss.
Good luck OP 
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On October 09 2013 18:36 Capped wrote:
I wrote out a big reply for this thread but its just a lost cause, i urge the rest of you to leave him be and carry on your seperate ways. There is little to no support for his views and opinions here anyway and i dont know how popular his blog is but that should pretty much confirm anything you have to say before posting. He does no harm and he's entitled to those opinions, but there is zero point arguing
The urge that most of the people feel here to contest someone's beliefs. It's his belief, everyone is entitled to their own belief and the possibility to connect with those that believe a similar thing or want to listen to them. Yet, quite franctly I'm not sure if everyone respects his opinion, you don't have to agree with eachother, just respect eachother. And bluntly stating someone is a lost cause is just not very respectful.
I strongly advise most of you to read the OP again, it says clearly don't argue for the sake of arguing. And let's be honest are you arguing people really interested in learning about religion or more so in proving someone wrong? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, a very selfish, close minded and evil approach if you ask me.
An argument can only take place if you really listen to the other, not the one directional blind-sided approach or pre-assumptions before going into an argument.
PS. I'm not religious myself.
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On October 10 2013 03:29 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 17:05 IronManSC wrote:On October 09 2013 11:22 IgnE wrote:
I guess you don't have an interest in discussing the historicity of the Bible. 3 reasons. 1) In all honesty I could answer it with what I know, but I am not a historian or a theologian, so I don't feel qualified to go into that subject. 2) More or less, I've been busy lately with work and planning a proposal in the next month, so I haven't had too much time to check TL. 3) I'm sort of burned out on all the discussions so far. They're not leading to anything good, and they are mostly people who just try to disregard the Christian faith in any way they can with what I say. I'm not trying to convince people, i'm just telling you what I believe and what I've been assured of. Do you think the historicity of the Bible matters? Do you think it has implications for what you believe?
History is important, yes, but it is not what we rely on. Jesus showed us how to live by faith, not by historical value. History is just that: history. Faith continues, and it produces trust in God.
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On October 10 2013 09:21 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 03:29 IgnE wrote:On October 09 2013 17:05 IronManSC wrote:On October 09 2013 11:22 IgnE wrote:
I guess you don't have an interest in discussing the historicity of the Bible. 3 reasons. 1) In all honesty I could answer it with what I know, but I am not a historian or a theologian, so I don't feel qualified to go into that subject. 2) More or less, I've been busy lately with work and planning a proposal in the next month, so I haven't had too much time to check TL. 3) I'm sort of burned out on all the discussions so far. They're not leading to anything good, and they are mostly people who just try to disregard the Christian faith in any way they can with what I say. I'm not trying to convince people, i'm just telling you what I believe and what I've been assured of. Do you think the historicity of the Bible matters? Do you think it has implications for what you believe? History is important, yes, but it is not what we rely on. Jesus showed us how to live by faith, not by historical value. History is just that: history. Faith continues, and it produces trust in God.
You didn't answer the second question. Do you think the historicity of the Bible has implications for what you believe? That is, do you think the likelihood of something having happened or happened a certain way should influence what you believe about the nature and teachings of Jesus?
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On October 10 2013 09:33 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 09:21 IronManSC wrote:On October 10 2013 03:29 IgnE wrote:On October 09 2013 17:05 IronManSC wrote:On October 09 2013 11:22 IgnE wrote:
I guess you don't have an interest in discussing the historicity of the Bible. 3 reasons. 1) In all honesty I could answer it with what I know, but I am not a historian or a theologian, so I don't feel qualified to go into that subject. 2) More or less, I've been busy lately with work and planning a proposal in the next month, so I haven't had too much time to check TL. 3) I'm sort of burned out on all the discussions so far. They're not leading to anything good, and they are mostly people who just try to disregard the Christian faith in any way they can with what I say. I'm not trying to convince people, i'm just telling you what I believe and what I've been assured of. Do you think the historicity of the Bible matters? Do you think it has implications for what you believe? History is important, yes, but it is not what we rely on. Jesus showed us how to live by faith, not by historical value. History is just that: history. Faith continues, and it produces trust in God. You didn't answer the second question. Do you think the historicity of the Bible has implications for what you believe? That is, do you think the likelihood of something having happened or happened a certain way should influence what you believe about the nature and teachings of Jesus?
Yes. Jesus's death and resurrection.
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EPT
