• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 03:38
CET 09:38
KST 17:38
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Tenacious Turtle Tussle StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night
Brood War
General
[BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest Foreign Brood War Let's talk about Metropolis BW General Discussion [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation Path of Exile ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
How Sleep Deprivation Affect…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1335 users

Entropy vs Occams Razor. Early Siege Unit?

Blogs > decemberscalm
Post a Reply
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-16 19:45:29
April 16 2013 19:44 GMT
#1
This is purely for my own rant space so I can re-read it and get more perspective, also to lay my thoughts out instead of wasting 50 pages of paper and throwing away what I dislike.

Hi anyone who happens across this blog. Just a quick introduction to myself. I've been creating games since I was very young. I'd literally make multiplayer rpg's played across my houses rooms with various game mechanics. I was heavily involved in SCBW mapping, and dabbled in modding other things. I've spent hours and hours in the SC2 data editor. Currently I am most involved in the Starbow melee mod community.



I've been drawing up various mods for SC2 for years now. From procedural generated rogue likes to a WW1 mod that has actually progress quite a bit. Some are just aesthetics, like getting an immortal to keep aiming at targets even when moving (but not firing on the move), others are crazy experiments on how units behave.

I am an absolute fan of BW and constantly think on how SC2 could be changed to still have the merits of BW. My biggest motivation is two simple things. Watching 10 viewer count stream of BW is amazingly more entertaining than watching the 8k plus viewer streams on at any moment. This is game wise, not how entertaining the player is (Grubby is hilariously entertaining, Jaedong is a spectacle, but neither reflect upon the game compared to BW). The second thing is the innate joy I receive upon loading up a BW game, playing an easy ZvP and how much bloody fun simply using hydras to fight zealot/goons is. Why is there this stark contrast? Que Day9's rant about Frisbee's and Baseballs and the twitchy aspects to unit control in BW.





Introduction over, on to the main piece.

I am currently building and still fleshing out a for fun melee mod that is trying to encapsulate a lot of what I feel could make SC2 much more fun.

To understand my predicament first I'll need to give you a general taste of the tech tree and the unit roles within it for Terran. Keep in mind there are two Terran factions, because who needs balance right? Ahahaha, but seriously that shouldn't be a crazy issue, more on that later.
Terran Faction 1: Kel-Morian Combine
Tier 1: Rax
Marine- Generalist, Medic-Support, Ghost-Support/Siege, Firebat-Antiswarm
Fact-Vulture-Harrass/AreaControl, Tank-Hard Board Control (less mobile, more expensive, higher damage), Goliath-Hard Airspace control
Star-Wraith-Harasser/Light Airspace control, SciVess-Spell Support, Dropship, BC-Siege Unit

Now here is my conundrum. I want the mod to emphasis hard control being very possible. This is one of my favorite aspects from BW. Put a few cannons and a reaver behind a bridge and the enemy will not attempt to break it without a huge army and the right tools. That or simply finding somewhere else to attack of course.
I am theorizing that hard board control could be produced with fantastic results via more expensive, dangerous, and less mobile (longer siege time) siege tanks.
This means you are sans 1 mobile siege option.
My theory is I could replace the siege tanks role with another unit. My first concept for this unit in the KMC arsenal is an APC with a longer ranged grenade longer.
It won't do tons of damage, it isn't a good fighter by itself. Think about early to midgame TvZ. T is stuck waiting to bust down sunken colonies until siege tanks are there. This wouldn't be possible with a slower, less mobile, longer setup tank. Instead it could be replaced by an APC that would slowly whittle sunken colonies down.

This parralels addition thinking about collosus and reaver. Perhaps a collosus could be the immobile hard board control and the reaver the siege unit.
Lurker/swarm host could serve as hard board control. Not sure for the siege unit yet because Z already has so much late game tools between dark swarm, ultras, guardians, blords, etc.

My first approach to unit lineups was that of simplicity. BW was so beautiful because each units interaction was so important. Basic unit making dictates that if you over inflate the amount of units, there will be a lot of unused ones. It is far more important to make sure the fewer count of units you do put in promote good game play.

Too many roles involved means roles overlaps and it the game suddenly becomes wishy washy and the units themselves just seem out of place against the backdrop of other units on their race.

I will assuredly be thinking on this matter more.
Assuming the new roles are added this would be the lineup.
Terran: Dominion
Marine, Medic, ?Maruader?-Early ish, but weak seige unit after range upgrade, ghost
Tank, Hellion, Widow Mine,
Warhound (air support, perhaps it could be given the weak siege role, but having a bunch of anti air units that can all siege seems a bit odd)
The Diamondback could also serve as a weak siege unit, but aesthetically it looks out of place so the marauder or warhound is probably the best bet.
Banshee, Raven, BC, Viking(light air control)

Terran: Kel-Morian Combine
Marine, Medic, Firebat, Spectre
Vulture, Tank, APC (weak siege role as discussed before, preferably with a recquire upgrade for that purpose), Goliath
Wraith, Sci Vess, BC


*****
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
April 16 2013 20:00 GMT
#2
Go go go December!
Creator of Starbow
pebble444
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Italy2500 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-16 20:27:29
April 16 2013 20:27 GMT
#3
Watching 10 viewer count stream of BW is amazingly more entertaining than watching the 8k plus viewer streams on at any moment


THIS :D

Man i Hope another TLS starts soon do

Edit: format
"Awaken my Child, and embrace the Glory that is your Birthright"
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 22m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft630
SortOf 132
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1003
Rush 148
ggaemo 117
Hyuk 95
Leta 79
Killer 69
Bale 64
ToSsGirL 30
Shine 25
Sacsri 13
[ Show more ]
sorry 12
soO 10
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm73
League of Legends
JimRising 474
C9.Mang0400
Reynor78
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss404
Other Games
summit1g9433
XaKoH 246
Happy227
Mew2King86
Dewaltoss20
ToD4
trigger3
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick701
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH224
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• HappyZerGling165
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
1h 22m
WardiTV 2025
3h 22m
StarCraft2.fi
8h 22m
WardiTV 2025
1d 3h
RSL Revival
1d 19h
StarCraft2.fi
2 days
IPSL
2 days
Sziky vs JDConan
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
WardiTV 2025
3 days
IPSL
3 days
Tarson vs DragOn
[ Show More ]
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Revival: Season 3
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.