• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:19
CEST 18:19
KST 01:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors0Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun13[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists22
Community News
RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event9Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results02026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers25Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) SC2 INu's Battles#15 <BO.9 2Matches> WardiTV Spring Cup SEL Masters #6 - Solar vs Classic (SC: Evo)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Why there arent any 256x256 pro maps? [ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL21 General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro8 Day 2 Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [BSL22] RO16 Group Stage - 02 - 10 May
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread Daigo vs Menard Best of 10 Diablo IV
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread 3D technology/software discussion Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Movie Stars In Video Games: …
TrAiDoS
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1058 users

Entropy vs Occams Razor. Early Siege Unit?

Blogs > decemberscalm
Post a Reply
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-16 19:45:29
April 16 2013 19:44 GMT
#1
This is purely for my own rant space so I can re-read it and get more perspective, also to lay my thoughts out instead of wasting 50 pages of paper and throwing away what I dislike.

Hi anyone who happens across this blog. Just a quick introduction to myself. I've been creating games since I was very young. I'd literally make multiplayer rpg's played across my houses rooms with various game mechanics. I was heavily involved in SCBW mapping, and dabbled in modding other things. I've spent hours and hours in the SC2 data editor. Currently I am most involved in the Starbow melee mod community.



I've been drawing up various mods for SC2 for years now. From procedural generated rogue likes to a WW1 mod that has actually progress quite a bit. Some are just aesthetics, like getting an immortal to keep aiming at targets even when moving (but not firing on the move), others are crazy experiments on how units behave.

I am an absolute fan of BW and constantly think on how SC2 could be changed to still have the merits of BW. My biggest motivation is two simple things. Watching 10 viewer count stream of BW is amazingly more entertaining than watching the 8k plus viewer streams on at any moment. This is game wise, not how entertaining the player is (Grubby is hilariously entertaining, Jaedong is a spectacle, but neither reflect upon the game compared to BW). The second thing is the innate joy I receive upon loading up a BW game, playing an easy ZvP and how much bloody fun simply using hydras to fight zealot/goons is. Why is there this stark contrast? Que Day9's rant about Frisbee's and Baseballs and the twitchy aspects to unit control in BW.





Introduction over, on to the main piece.

I am currently building and still fleshing out a for fun melee mod that is trying to encapsulate a lot of what I feel could make SC2 much more fun.

To understand my predicament first I'll need to give you a general taste of the tech tree and the unit roles within it for Terran. Keep in mind there are two Terran factions, because who needs balance right? Ahahaha, but seriously that shouldn't be a crazy issue, more on that later.
Terran Faction 1: Kel-Morian Combine
Tier 1: Rax
Marine- Generalist, Medic-Support, Ghost-Support/Siege, Firebat-Antiswarm
Fact-Vulture-Harrass/AreaControl, Tank-Hard Board Control (less mobile, more expensive, higher damage), Goliath-Hard Airspace control
Star-Wraith-Harasser/Light Airspace control, SciVess-Spell Support, Dropship, BC-Siege Unit

Now here is my conundrum. I want the mod to emphasis hard control being very possible. This is one of my favorite aspects from BW. Put a few cannons and a reaver behind a bridge and the enemy will not attempt to break it without a huge army and the right tools. That or simply finding somewhere else to attack of course.
I am theorizing that hard board control could be produced with fantastic results via more expensive, dangerous, and less mobile (longer siege time) siege tanks.
This means you are sans 1 mobile siege option.
My theory is I could replace the siege tanks role with another unit. My first concept for this unit in the KMC arsenal is an APC with a longer ranged grenade longer.
It won't do tons of damage, it isn't a good fighter by itself. Think about early to midgame TvZ. T is stuck waiting to bust down sunken colonies until siege tanks are there. This wouldn't be possible with a slower, less mobile, longer setup tank. Instead it could be replaced by an APC that would slowly whittle sunken colonies down.

This parralels addition thinking about collosus and reaver. Perhaps a collosus could be the immobile hard board control and the reaver the siege unit.
Lurker/swarm host could serve as hard board control. Not sure for the siege unit yet because Z already has so much late game tools between dark swarm, ultras, guardians, blords, etc.

My first approach to unit lineups was that of simplicity. BW was so beautiful because each units interaction was so important. Basic unit making dictates that if you over inflate the amount of units, there will be a lot of unused ones. It is far more important to make sure the fewer count of units you do put in promote good game play.

Too many roles involved means roles overlaps and it the game suddenly becomes wishy washy and the units themselves just seem out of place against the backdrop of other units on their race.

I will assuredly be thinking on this matter more.
Assuming the new roles are added this would be the lineup.
Terran: Dominion
Marine, Medic, ?Maruader?-Early ish, but weak seige unit after range upgrade, ghost
Tank, Hellion, Widow Mine,
Warhound (air support, perhaps it could be given the weak siege role, but having a bunch of anti air units that can all siege seems a bit odd)
The Diamondback could also serve as a weak siege unit, but aesthetically it looks out of place so the marauder or warhound is probably the best bet.
Banshee, Raven, BC, Viking(light air control)

Terran: Kel-Morian Combine
Marine, Medic, Firebat, Spectre
Vulture, Tank, APC (weak siege role as discussed before, preferably with a recquire upgrade for that purpose), Goliath
Wraith, Sci Vess, BC


*****
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
April 16 2013 20:00 GMT
#2
Go go go December!
Creator of Starbow
pebble444
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Italy2503 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-16 20:27:29
April 16 2013 20:27 GMT
#3
Watching 10 viewer count stream of BW is amazingly more entertaining than watching the 8k plus viewer streams on at any moment


THIS :D

Man i Hope another TLS starts soon do

Edit: format
"Awaken my Child, and embrace the Glory that is your Birthright"
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
14:00
Season 2 - May 2026
RotterdaM793
uThermal489
mouzHeroMarine377
IndyStarCraft 218
SteadfastSC209
elazer79
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 793
uThermal 489
mouzHeroMarine 377
IndyStarCraft 218
SteadfastSC 209
Railgan 119
elazer 79
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 42964
Horang2 1918
EffOrt 1254
Shuttle 1176
ggaemo 601
Hyuk 297
Soma 288
firebathero 265
Rush 234
Leta 191
[ Show more ]
PianO 133
Dewaltoss 110
Sharp 93
actioN 73
Barracks 68
ToSsGirL 48
Pusan 45
Hm[arnc] 43
Sacsri 29
Rock 26
Terrorterran 18
GoRush 11
Shine 6
Dota 2
Gorgc4750
qojqva2950
monkeys_forever234
Fuzer 203
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor437
Other Games
B2W.Neo1520
Liquid`RaSZi1162
Beastyqt1095
KnowMe202
FrodaN34
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV624
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream68
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 8
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV580
League of Legends
• Jankos1987
Other Games
• Shiphtur287
Upcoming Events
BSL
2h 41m
IPSL
2h 41m
eOnzErG vs TBD
G5 vs Nesh
Patches Events
7h 41m
Replay Cast
16h 41m
Wardi Open
17h 41m
Afreeca Starleague
17h 41m
Jaedong vs Light
Monday Night Weeklies
23h 41m
Replay Cast
1d 7h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 17h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 17h
Snow vs Flash
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Invitational
1d 18h
GSL
2 days
Classic vs Cure
Maru vs Rogue
GSL
3 days
SHIN vs Zoun
ByuN vs herO
OSC
3 days
OSC
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Escore
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
SHIN vs Bunny
ByuN vs Shameless
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
BSL
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Cure vs Zoun
Clem vs Lambo
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-05-02
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
KK 2v2 League Season 1
Acropolis #4
SCTL 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W6
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
Escore Tournament S2: W7
Escore Tournament S2: W8
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.