• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 23:43
CET 05:43
KST 13:43
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced11[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge2
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge
Tourneys
Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest RSL Revival: Season 3 Tenacious Turtle Tussle [Alpha Pro Series] Nice vs Cure $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone Which season is the best in ASL? soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group C - Saturday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? Current Meta PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread The Perfect Game Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread The Big Programming Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esports Earnings: Bigger Pri…
TrAiDoS
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1502 users

Bioshock Infinite: What doesn't make sense

Blogs > KaRath_
Post a Reply
KaRath_
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia245 Posts
April 06 2013 11:12 GMT
#1
I've never properly played Bioshock 1 or 2 before playing Infinite, and definitely not System Shock either (was too young for that back in the days when it was out ). However, playing Infinite just gave me a headache from thinking all about it.

I was thinking where to put this. I want a thread with a discussion about the game's ending, with my own personal view on it (hence, didn't really put this in the pre-existing thread, nor putting it in the more general Sports + Game forum). So I might as well type it out in a blog.

Spoilers from here-on within, as in GAME-CHANGING SPOILERS. if anyone does respond, please also spoiler it. I couldn't really fit spoiler in the title, hahaha

+ Show Spoiler +
Personally, the multiple universe/dimensions has been explored to some extent in other literature and it's fascinating. To think that there could be ten million different (or even more) universes where something different happens each time is both exciting and terrifying. The main focal point is how Booker is taken from his universe and placed into another (yes, Comstock is Booker in the universe that Booker accepts the baptism after his role at Wounded Knee). So he is effectively placed in Comstock's Universe from Booker's own (hence Lighthouse Scene at the beginning)

Okay, so we accept that the Luteces, after being fractured and split across many dimensions, having this power to get Booker into a different universe... hang on, isn't there a flaw in itself? The Luteces never had a massive interest in Booker getting Anna/Elizabeth back because they felt like charitable people... they wanted Comstock to pay for what he did. And, as the ending shows Booker realising that he is both Comstock/Booker and letting Elizabeths drown him, thus never putting the entire motion in play... surely the Luteces knew about this. Yet why couldn't they simply take him to that particular point in time and shoot him? It achieves the same purpose, yet so much less long-winded. Although, I suppose they hypothesised that he had to go through this particular method to achieve the end-goal...

Which leads to the next problem. The biggest problem I find with the ending is the entire "Booker gets killed before he accepts the baptism, thus never setting the entire chain of events in the first place". This is where it gets a bit tricky. If I recall correctly, there are multiple theories on how dimensional/time travel works, though I only know of two. One of them states that whatever has happened, has already happened (in other words, what this game is - as we quote the Luteces, died, dies, will die - everything is already set in motion. Everything that will happen has already happened, just in a different universe) The other one being the "grandpa theory" - if you killed your granddad, then theoretically you would cease to exist, as you would never have been born then.

I'm pretty sure these are the two major theories, do correct me if I'm wrong.

Thus, we have a problem. The two theories cannot be mutually exclusive. I've taken the game as "whatever will happen has already happened. Just in a different universe." This is clear everywhere. Booker is going to die, has died, and will die. It's inevitable. He's killed in other different universes, he gets drowned at the end...

The end credits doesn't really make sense to me. I guess it's him in another universe.

And thus, my biggest gripe so far (this is such a rant hahahaha). Theoretically, if we're going by the first theory, then Booker has no need to go anywhere - just the end scene credits (yeah, Booker just casually did mushrooms and got high and had his head in the clouds - literally) would be reality. What has happened, will happen. Booker died before he became Comstock, thus negating his entire adventure.

Hang on, hang on. This is the big problem I have. Theoretically, because Booker never became Comstock, this alternate universe would never come across (as explained, to stop an alternate universe from happening, you gotta "smother the son of a bitch in his cradle". Which also has problems, but more on that later), and thus Booker never really needed to go anywhere. UNLESS it's the grandpa theory - but the game kinda stated that "that will happen... has already happened".

Hence my confusion.

My other problem, as stated in the previous paragraph, is whether Booker, in THIS universe, decided to sacrifice himself. Who said that he would have sacrificed himself in other universes? Surely it isn't just him who decides what happens, right? It would be the other Bookers... unless they're all dead.

Man, my head really hurts. I guess that's why they call it Infinite - infinite possibilities with the ending.



//

*
I wasted my nights, you turned out the lights, now I'm paralysed, still stuck in that time...
RogerX
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand3180 Posts
April 06 2013 11:42 GMT
#2
I'll try and write some more to this later.

But funny thing about the title. Its called that because there are infinite parallel universes
Stick it up. take it up. step aside and see the world
heynes
Profile Joined July 2009
Germany201 Posts
April 06 2013 11:57 GMT
#3
I liked the endind because it was really unexpected and a bit too much to understand, so it makes me wanna see the end again. But im waiting like 2-3 month to my next playthrough. Dont wanna remember too much
Dagon
Profile Joined August 2010
Romania264 Posts
April 06 2013 16:04 GMT
#4
OK so, the way I see it:

+ Show Spoiler +

The way I like to look at it is that the entire game, the entire trip to Columbia is just an allegory that depicts Booker's descent into madness as a result of the guilt he felt for the events at Wounded Knee and for selling his daughter to some loanshark to rid himself of debt. In this case the ending is nothing more than his mental state in the final moment before committing suicide.
In this variation, the Letuces are visualized by Booker as omnipresent simply because he was unable to rid himself of the debt in real life and Comstock is pretty much Booker's guilt manifested. He is racist and extremely overprotective of Elizabeth both traits resulting form the events and Wounded Knee (slaughtering indians) and from the fact that he sold his daughter. If you want to believe this version of the game, think of it in the same sense as "Life of Pi" or the final episodes of "Evangelion".

Of course, you can devise a way to make everything work even if you believe the entire trip to Columbia is actually real, because of the Letuces. If you think of the Letuces (there was probably only one Letuce in reality but he just chooses to appear as both a man and a woman) as a Schrödinger's Cat type of existence (both dead and alive, both present and not present) than it is actually possible within the laws of quantum mechanics for Letuce to interfere in multiple universes in order to create a sequence of events that would lead to it's own creation and it this way to create an infinite loop without a beginning, a loop in witch Booker is trapped. In this way, the ending is actually the way Booker breaks himself free of the loop, by accepting a fate in witch all of the universes where he became The Prophet and where Columbia was built to disappear. He is able to do that because by the end, Elizabeth is also a Schrödinger's Cat type of existence, and, again, according to the laws of quantum mechanics, it is possible for Elizabeth to interfere in multiple universes and to create a series of events where she was never actually born in the first place.

I personally like the first interpretation more, even if it is prolly not what Ken Lavine had in mind
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
April 06 2013 16:30 GMT
#5
Cardinal Sin, never try to examine and explain time travel in any work of fiction. There is no answer. There will always be errors and paradoxes. The best thing to do is to just 'sit along for the ride'.

I mean really, it would practically impossible to write any kind of fiction with time travel if all you ever do is think about how to rewrite the story to take into effect the time travel. It doesn't work that way. Its just a story meant to be enjoyed as any other with a beginning, middle, and end.
starleague forever
madestro
Profile Joined October 2010
Costa Rica108 Posts
April 06 2013 19:31 GMT
#6
I think you are placing a bit too much emphasis on Booker and not enough on Elizabeth

+ Show Spoiler +
The way I understood after 2 playthroughs and getting every voxphone is like this. The luteces are not omniscient, they are however omnipresent. Through the "accident" caused by Fink they got stuck between tears (dimensions) and yes they can see the tears and move through them but only the ones they had traveled before and not to anyone they wished. By moving along these tears they eventually came to the universe where Elizabeth invades New York and realize that what they previously did (help Comstock get Anna) actually destroys the world so they set out to fix things. You also have to see that they have tried to fix things 122 times before (as evidenced by the coin flip) and how they did it those times remains unknown (although I believe everything went same way except for Songbird always killing Booker, like old Elizabeth tells him), you never see those other times except for the one where you end up ditching the whole Elizabeth thing in favor of joining the Vox, which makes him a martyr but doesn't accomplish anything in the grand scheme of things.

What I never understood was this notion that the Luteces are indeed the same person. I always thought they were brothers. To me it made sense that Rosalind indeed had a brother that died at a young age and her studies into tears suggested she could bring him to this world to stay with her. That was what motivated her to appear to Booker (as the archangel) to suggest him the creation of Columbia and to contact Rosalind and further her studies into the matter. This would explain the money for the tear funding and experiments where Comstock participated and became sterile.

When Comstock became sterile he had a huge problem because he had already announced his prophecy about the heir of the prophet and had married Lady Comstock. Because of this he remembered Anna from his old life, but it was likely that he couldn't reach to her in that timeline (she would have been older and not be able to pass as a baby). So he made the Luteces go to the time in his life before the baptism to offer Booker the deal (baby in exchange for the debt). As Booker tries to get Anna back part of her finger stays in his universe and the rest goes to Comstock's universe. This is what gives Elizabeth her power to open tears at will (like she mentions she could do as little, imagine as a baby). The Luteces realize this, as well as Comstock and device the siphon, the tower and Songbird to use Elizabeth's energy in order to advance Columbia's technology by opening tears into the future. They do not control this power fully though as evidenced by the tears all over Columbia (and the ones Elizabeth can open) but neither does Elizabeth, she can open the ones that emerge but not open ones at will or to wherever she wants. When Booker does rescue her from the tower, he is taking her away from the siphon, which in turn allows her to regain some of her power, she keeps getting stronger until she is able to not only bring stuff from other dimension but to travel with Booker to them. She still cannot control everything in them at will and that is why you see the whole problem with Chen Lin and the dead guards, she is trying to combine the universes but is not powerful enough to do so without consequence.

The Luteces have seen this things but do not know whether or not the choices made by both Booker and Elizabeth will yield results in the long run (often talked about in the constants and variables dialogs) and that is why they appear sometimes to give a little "push" if you will in the direction they wish. Up to this point everything is indicative of another failure by the Luteces to stop the prophecy from being fulfilled. Now Comstock also knows about these events because he used Rosalind's device after they were "killed" but given how stupid he is (after all he is Booker), he has no idea how to correctly interpret things and believe things to be prophecies that shall pass because he has probably gazed into a tear from old Elizabeth's universe where she is burning down New York.

This is where things change. This Elizabeth, being influenced by her contact with Booker, recognizes the wrong in her doing but is unable to revert things. Columbia escaped her control ("as you see the lunatics run the asylum now, they don't listen to me anymore") and her bitterness and lack of hope turned her into a hell bent dictator. Imagine how bad Comstock was and Elizabeth is the same but with powers to open tears, jeez talk about a bad ass. When she repents from her wrongdoing though she remembers Booker and how he was the only one that helped her, so she opens a tear on him to bring him into the future (one of many possible ones) and show him the whole card thing and how to use Songbird to help them. This is the only way to not become her as every time Booker rescued her Songbird will in turn kill Booker and take her back for surgery.

Booker then manages to rescue Elizabeth, effectively changing the timeline there. Elizabeth then decides the only way to ensure she is not turned into that is to find Comstock and get some answers. Note that even though she is stronger and stronger as she is away from the siphon, she still doesn't fully understand how to control the tears or where do they lead.
Now here is where Comstock gets all riled up. He sees the attempts on Booker's life are not successful so he resorts to the last thing he thinks of, telling Elizabeth the truth. However Comstock believes Booker knows as much as he does (which is false, Booker is as dumb as a brick and fabricated memories to suppress the ones from Anna) and wants him to tell Elizabeth that he sold her to Comstock. In theory this is a good idea (to make him tell her) because that should alienate Elizabeth from Booker killing the small ounce of hope she has, but in the end doesn't work since Booker looses control and kills Comstock. This is when Elizabeth realizes that Booker doesn't belong in this universe (she has hints when Booker's nose keeps on bleeding as memories start to combine from universe to universe) but she stills has no idea what her ties are with Booker or Comstock. All she knows is that she is a "freak" that is not Comstock's daughter.

The turning point is given by the card from old Elizabeth, with the ability to control Songbird they can now leave Columbia forever and just rest together since nothing will hunt her. But Elizabeth has the great idea to destroy the tower with Songbird to which Booker agrees, I think mostly because that is the ultimate symbol of Columbia. In doing so the energy stored there all returns to Elizabeth and this is the major change in the story from every universe.

Now Elizabeth is effectively a god. She is able to control the tears at will, she sees all the possibilities, all the "doors" if you will and now knows exactly what happened and why. Booker does not however hold this power. Elizabeth has been taken out of the time stream, she is now omniscient and omnipresent however she decides to explain to Booker what and how it all came to this.

She takes him to the baptism because that is the turning point for the creation of Comstock, which was the root of all those troubles. When he accepts to drown himself he effectively kills 2 different timelines. The one for Elizabeth and the one for Anna being kidnapped. He is not killing his timeline though (there are infinite other universes with Booker, like one where he never killed indians, one where his wife didn't die, one where he was never presented with the option of baptism, etc) and one of those universes is the one that you get to see after the credits. As you can see on the final scene all the other Annas/Elizabeths created or affected by the baptism seize to exist as soon as Booker dies, except for the one that went with you the whole journey because she is essentially a god now and is out of the time stream, existed before and after everything but it does not mean the other Annas (timelines where Booker is never offered a baptism) need to or seize to exist.

Now as for your question of why don't the Luteces just go and kill him in the baptism. Well they do not know that is the turning point as evidenced by their dialog "well how does one know how far back to go ?". Only the now god Elizabeth knows when exactly was the turning point for it all since she sees every possibility. Same reason you don't see the Luteces inside the lighthouse with you and Elizabeth at the end.

As to only this Booker sacrificed himself. Well Elizabeth brought him to the one point where he was presented the baptism option. Like I said before there are infinite other Bookers but they are not given the baptism option so there are infinite other Annas, but not other Elizabeths, as Elizabeth can only exist if Comstock exists.


Of course this is all based on my personal opinion by listening and relistening to the dialogs and voxphones from 2 playthroughs (I was gonna do more but see no real reason as choices don't matter in this game). I hope I made my point a bit clear and it would be nice to further discuss these things with other opinions or evidence.
"The Swarm will consume all." - Queen of Blades
HollowLord
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3862 Posts
April 07 2013 00:00 GMT
#7
The game has far more plot holes than just the time travel. Really the whole story doesn't make much sense at all. It's put together in a great presentation though.
dota 2 stream #noskill #feed #noob twitch.tv/dmcredgrave
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 18m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft452
RuFF_SC2 171
Nina 90
StarCraft: Brood War
Noble 26
Icarus 6
Dota 2
XaKoH 563
monkeys_forever451
NeuroSwarm227
Super Smash Bros
amsayoshi215
Other Games
summit1g15719
Mew2King59
ViBE56
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1623
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream213
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH109
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 34
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4347
• Rush1346
Other Games
• Scarra796
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5h 18m
NightMare vs YoungYakov
Krystianer vs Classic
ByuN vs Shameless
SKillous vs Percival
WardiTV Korean Royale
7h 18m
Zoun vs SHIN
TBD vs Reynor
TBD vs herO
Solar vs TBD
BSL 21
15h 18m
Hawk vs Kyrie
spx vs Cross
Replay Cast
19h 18m
Wardi Open
1d 7h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 12h
StarCraft2.fi
1d 12h
Replay Cast
1d 19h
Wardi Open
2 days
StarCraft2.fi
2 days
[ Show More ]
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
StarCraft2.fi
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
SC Evo League
6 days
BSL 21
6 days
Sziky vs OyAji
Gypsy vs eOnzErG
Liquipedia Results

Completed

SOOP Univ League 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
Slon Tour Season 2
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
Kuram Kup
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.