|
Note: I will help any Protoss player that contacts me on NA server SWBKSalv.574 . I'm a masters player, I don't charge people money.
I recently found out about the 'Adopt a Newb' group on HOTS and I've been attempting to help Protoss players in my free time. That being said, it's very frustrating because a lot of players seemingly have no idea how to ask for help. This a common conversation:
Player: "Hi, can you help me with Protoss?"
Salv: "Sure, what problems are you having?"
Player: "I suck."
Salv: "Can you tell me some specific problems you're having?"
Player: "I don't know - I can't beat Terran or Zerg"
Salv: "I need more information than that"
Player: "Nevermind"
When I played SC:BW I wrote a Protoss guide on how to play a conservative style for PvP, PvT, and PvZ - that was 40 pages (if you're interested for some nostalgia, here it is in PDF form: http://home.arcor.de/socke456/Protoss-Guide-FAQ-by-Salv.pdf ). So when people need general help, I feel like it's the same as asking me to write another 40 page guide just for them - it's way too broad and general.
So when people say they want help, but have no idea where I can help them besides teaching them all aspects of all the matchups - that's a problem. I find helping people to be relaxing and fun, but when you have to find out why the player is playing bad in addition to helping by giving them advice, it becomes a job. So please, have some replays ready to show people if you need help, have some questions or strategies you're having trouble with - simply saying you suck is to the point, but it's not going to help.
Anyone else use the 'Adopt a Newb' group? Any similar experiences or advice?
|
I've been coached for free by a pro. vVv.Hyuna offered to do that a while ago, and it was definitely worth it. Though I had more specific things than what you have described. I have to say that normally, if I had the time, I would take you up on this, but I definitely recommend taking lessons to anyone who seriously wants to get better at starcraft. That said, I have never used adopt a newb, but I have seen that some tutees (the peopel tutored) can be less than savory. There was a guy that I played with on a team for a while who got coaching from SlayerS_MiYa. From my experience with the guy, though I never sat in on one of their lessons, he probably did what you were just complaining about to some extent; that said he paid for those lessons.
Don't make it a job, just make it fun :>.
|
|
|
On March 25 2013 06:47 Emzeeshady wrote:
Most of the time it is not worth it to have a SC2 coach unless you plan on going pro. It is better to figure out your style for yourself and find out how to play best doing that.
I would agree, but then I wouldn't called it coaching, I'd call it lessons. I just try to help people with their games, like if they don't know what unit composition works versus what, or if they need some advice on where to improve. My whole frustration is simply that a lot of people seem to view coaching as something that the coach puts the effort into and the player just absorbs - an attitude like, "Make me a better player" as opposed to "How can I be a better player?" If that makes sense.
|
Yeah, I always coached people with them understanding that coaching is an "accelerated way of learning". I'm not the one doing the learning. I'd usually make it very clear that the lesson's success is largely up to what the participator puts into it.
As for advice for you, don't underestimate empathy. I successfully coached a lot of people because I had recently been a very low-level player, and could understand how people think and feel. Communicating with a student by attempting to understand their situation is in my opinion the best way to allow them to grow quickly.
Edit: your pdf link is broken.
|
On March 25 2013 07:16 CecilSunkure wrote:
Yeah, I always coached people with them understanding that coaching is an "accelerated way of learning". I'm not the one doing the learning. I'd usually make it very clear that the lesson's success is largely up to what the participator puts into it.
As for advice for you, don't underestimate empathy. I successfully coached a lot of people because I had recently been a very low-level player, and could understand how people think and feel. Communicating with a student by attempting to understand their situation is in my opinion the best way to allow them to grow quickly.
Edit: your pdf link is broken.
Thanks for the advice, and fixed the link, I had it in parenthesis and the ' ) ' was being included in the link.
|
Happens to me all the time... Someone will ask, "how do I bet this certain race" and I ask what's their build and all they'll tell me is "Oh whatever I feel like (and/or is comfortable with at the time). But when I probe a bit into their play style they show no signs of understanding from scout information, so when I confront them and try to explain how to counter certain builds they usually just give up and convince themselves that their old "original" build was the best.
|
Students are like that. I don't just mean in SC -- if you go into tutoring just about any discipline, you can expect similar responses.
"What are you needing help with?"
"I suck at math."
"What problems are you having trouble with specifically?"
"All of it."
Which is why as a tutor, you have people go through some problems in the book until they get stuck, just to see where they are. In general, in a student-teacher relationship, the onus is on the teacher to be able to figure out how to best effectively teach the student.
SC is no different -- before you do anything else, have them play a practice game, preferably with a friend of yours that's online, but just something you can observe. You'll be able to see where their game sense is -- are they having problems with building workers? Timing their buildings? Scouting? Moving out? Keeping production up? Missing Upgrades? Floating resources? There's all kinds of different ways to improve, and you'll get more out of watching them play a quick game vs. a friend than you will out of hours typing back and forth. From there, it should be much easier to tell them what to focus on, rather than trying to pull what's wrong out of them. Because, really, if they knew what was wrong, why would they need a coach in the first place? 
Just some food for thought. Might give you a better starting point at any rate. Good luck and hang in there, we need more people willing to help out other people in general.
|
Agreeing with the post above. Many people seek tutors/mentors so they can find out their major issues and help with them. Often, if you know where the problem is, you find the solution on your own, or it is easier to do so and don't really need to ask a mentor to teach/guide you. I realize this is harder than having your student telling you their problem, but at the same time I'd not feel upset at them for that. Like the poster above me said, work with them, have them send you replays, so you get a sense of their gameplay, or even better, have them play a game or two with someone, while you watch.
Coaching is a difficult task, if you want to do it well, and just like with teaching anything else, often it is needed to approach the individual, well.. individually. If you have too many expectations and try to build a "pattern" how you aproach your students, you will end up frustrated, as everyone learns in different ways and has different struggles/problems.
In any way, good luck in coaching, hope you will find even more enjoyment from it. It is heartwarming to see people helping each other.
|
Since I intend to use Adopt-A-Noob in future, would you be able to help me with what level of specifics people should be giving you and others like you? (I can't play HotS for over a week and haven't even started it yet, so I won't be asking for coaching for a while. This is just a pre-emptive thing.)
Obviously: "I need help as Protoss" is insufficient. What about these:
"I need help in PvT."
"I want to learn MC's PvT Stargate build, which I have not yet tried on ladder."
"I have been trying MC's PvT Stargate build on ladder, and can't make it work, and don't know why."
"I have been trying MC's PvT Stargate build, and I keep dying to the 10-minute stim-medivac push for some reason."
"I have been trying MC's PvT Stargate build, and I keep dying to the 10-minute stim-medivac push because I am unable to do enough damage with my initial harassment in order to make up the economic gap between my opponent and myself, and he ends up with too much stuff in that window."
I'm assuming the last two are fine, but I'm not sure where on the spectrum I should be at before asking for help.
|
I find when people ask me for help and I get responses like the ones you mention I just tell them to come back with replays that they feel articulate the state of their play so I can evaluate them.
A lot of people who haven't really looked into detailed analysis of their play honestly don't know where to start, and although it's hard on you as a coach, it's really common for them to feel that way.
Of course there are people who just go "yeah, I want to get better!" and then you ask them to put in some time and they get cold feet and there's nothing you can do.
|
Players who cannot articulate what's wrong with their play are either not really interested in improving, never learned how to improve fast in anything, or have self esteem issues.
Which isn't as bad as it sounds, because I have seen it to be very common. As in, even the people who say 'I suck' as their excuse are too embarassed to admit their own glaring problems. They know they're slow, they know their build orders aren't optimal, they know they haven't got a clue how to react to scouting information and how to abuse greedy plays. But because they feel their overall game is so full of problems, they aren't ready to admit even one of them. A step that could take them to the next level.
Honestly, in SC2, playing lots of games does make you improve, as with almost anything else. But if you want to improve fast, you have to detect, admit, and focus on your mistakes and flaws. It really isn't that hard, but it does take dedication. For example, you know your build orders aren't optimal. There are countless VOD's, replays and guides that tell you good build orders, but you are too afraid/lazy to actually try them and hone them. You have to get out of your comfort zone. Yes, you're gonna lose a game or two because its a totally new system, but at least after a dozen games you'll be back stronger than ever, even if you lost a few.
Helping other people is something I've done a lot in the past, and will probably do at some point in the future too. But from experience I know better than to try and convince people how to play who really only like the thought of being better, not making an effort to be better.
|
On March 25 2013 15:23 Salivanth wrote:
Since I intend to use Adopt-A-Noob in future, would you be able to help me with what level of specifics people should be giving you and others like you? (I can't play HotS for over a week and haven't even started it yet, so I won't be asking for coaching for a while. This is just a pre-emptive thing.)
Obviously: "I need help as Protoss" is insufficient. What about these:
"I need help in PvT."
"I want to learn MC's PvT Stargate build, which I have not yet tried on ladder."
"I have been trying MC's PvT Stargate build on ladder, and can't make it work, and don't know why."
"I have been trying MC's PvT Stargate build, and I keep dying to the 10-minute stim-medivac push for some reason."
"I have been trying MC's PvT Stargate build, and I keep dying to the 10-minute stim-medivac push because I am unable to do enough damage with my initial harassment in order to make up the economic gap between my opponent and myself, and he ends up with too much stuff in that window."
I'm assuming the last two are fine, but I'm not sure where on the spectrum I should be at before asking for help.
I think any of those questions are fine. In fact, if someone just said, can you look at this and give me some advice/tips (replay)? I would think that's perfect! In your example I couldn't help them too much because I don't use that build and I don't know much about it, but even just having a replay would be sufficient.
On March 25 2013 18:44 Ahzz wrote:
Helping other people is something I've done a lot in the past, and will probably do at some point in the future too. But from experience I know better than to try and convince people how to play who really only like the thought of being better, not making an effort to be better.
I can only speak from my own personal point of view, but in brood war when I was trying to improve I would have replays, ideas, questions, etc - the problem was finding someone who could help me with all of them.
|
salv, I agree and know your pain in trying to help someone who doesn't quite understand mechanics. I'm only a Gold toss player, but I am trying to assist a friend of mine from the ground up. giving him advice and build orders (telling him Build orders are the most important up to 5-7 min in the game) and he's not doing too bad. however he constantly asks me how he can improve if he sucks. I told him, most of it is muscle memory when it comes down to most of it. get familiar with hotkeys, know what makes what and how to tell what build your opponent is doing.
all he knows as far as build orders go is 4gate, which is probably the most standard build... but I was wondering if we are all on bnet at the same time if you could give him a few pointers per chance? Ill have him toss you an friend request. (he's hung out in swbk a bit in bw.)
|
Related to the post above and trying to teach mechanics: I've been trying to convince my husband to pick up the game again and was keen to help him in doing so, even though he picked Terran and I am Protoss player. The basis of thes is, he blatantly refused to use the hotkeys and kept on clicking everything. (drove me nearly crazy, and then he complained how is it that everyone beats him and how Protoss is OP... sigh) I told him, that without using the hotkeys he will only continue being frustrated, and he kept opposing me, he would never remember the million hotkeys for every stupid thing in the game. (indirect quote there  )
This is when an idea to advice him to use grid settings occured to me. He is purely logic person and hates memorizing without logic just because - so this actually helped him immensely with the very basic mechanics, as he seems to have much easier time with grid settings, rather than memorizing which letter does what. From there, it's just muscle memory. It really depends, from person to person, what their tendencies are.
Also, I believe for an ultimate beginner, basic opening, such as Pylon on 9, Gate on 13, Gas on 14 & Cyber as soon as Gate finishes should be sufficient. From there, keeping emphasis on producing and having like, 3 gates per base (+1 tech structure like Robo/Stargate) to keep healthy production and economy, while getting them used to constantly producing workers and units at the same time is the most important. Timings and precise plans are for when you actually have the mechanics/muscle memory to back them up and they would only confuse someone completelly new. New players seem to have lack of understanding that they should constantly keep producing workers & keep their production facilities busy all the time, as again, my husband would upgrade every stupid thing without even having units to utilize the damn upgrades. <.<
I'd however say, that teaching someone new to the game has it's pluses as well. They don't have any bad habits and are a blank state, so they can be taught all good habits in time.
|
On March 26 2013 17:24 newbish4life wrote:
salv, I agree and know your pain in trying to help someone who doesn't quite understand mechanics. I'm only a Gold toss player, but I am trying to assist a friend of mine from the ground up. giving him advice and build orders (telling him Build orders are the most important up to 5-7 min in the game) and he's not doing too bad. however he constantly asks me how he can improve if he sucks. I told him, most of it is muscle memory when it comes down to most of it. get familiar with hotkeys, know what makes what and how to tell what build your opponent is doing.
all he knows as far as build orders go is 4gate, which is probably the most standard build... but I was wondering if we are all on bnet at the same time if you could give him a few pointers per chance? Ill have him toss you an friend request. (he's hung out in swbk a bit in bw.)
Sure, no problem, send him my way or just msg me when you're both on.
On March 27 2013 01:11 BabyToss! wrote:Related to the post above and trying to teach mechanics: I've been trying to convince my husband to pick up the game again and was keen to help him in doing so, even though he picked Terran and I am Protoss player. The basis of thes is, he blatantly refused to use the hotkeys and kept on clicking everything. (drove me nearly crazy, and then he complained how is it that everyone beats him and how Protoss is OP... sigh) I told him, that without using the hotkeys he will only continue being frustrated, and he kept opposing me, he would never remember the million hotkeys for every stupid thing in the game. (indirect quote there ) This is when an idea to advice him to use grid settings occured to me. He is purely logic person and hates memorizing without logic just because - so this actually helped him immensely with the very basic mechanics, as he seems to have much easier time with grid settings, rather than memorizing which letter does what. From there, it's just muscle memory. It really depends, from person to person, what their tendencies are. Also, I believe for an ultimate beginner, basic opening, such as Pylon on 9, Gate on 13, Gas on 14 & Cyber as soon as Gate finishes should be sufficient. From there, keeping emphasis on producing and having like, 3 gates per base (+1 tech structure like Robo/Stargate) to keep healthy production and economy, while getting them used to constantly producing workers and units at the same time is the most important. Timings and precise plans are for when you actually have the mechanics/muscle memory to back them up and they would only confuse someone completelly new. New players seem to have lack of understanding that they should constantly keep producing workers & keep their production facilities busy all the time, as again, my husband would upgrade every stupid thing without even having units to utilize the damn upgrades. <.< I'd however say, that teaching someone new to the game has it's pluses as well. They don't have any bad habits and are a blank state, so they can be taught all good habits in time.
That's really cool, and that was a great idea you had with the grid hotkeys because it does make sense having everything laid out according to the command card. My fiance plays (a little bit) and I teach her to play, it's cool to see her progress on certain things (and refuse to do other things lol, like use spells, or not build units simply because they look cool).
|
On March 27 2013 01:46 Salv wrote:
That's really cool, and that was a great idea you had with the grid hotkeys because it does make sense having everything laid out according to the command card. My fiance plays (a little bit) and I teach her to play, it's cool to see her progress on certain things (and refuse to do other things lol, like use spells, or not build units simply because they look cool).
Yeah, it's really always about how the student approaches the learning. The role of a mentor is to figure out how to approach the student in order to be able to offer them an effective, helpful way of learning. In case of the significant others, it is sometimes more complicated though - they totally don't want to do as we say, just for the sake of not listening us!
Good luck coaching your underlings through "Adopt a Newb" program.
|
I remember when Destiny used to stream his coaching lessons, he would ask what's his problem and often get someone slightly higher league than him and find out what's wrong.
then he would go through the replay and coach him for the rematch.
I thoink nowadays with this group and the ability to restart a game, more coach should take this approach.
Lots of people think they aren't winning is for example, wrong unit composition but actually the losses are caused by something else more fundermental and a better player like you could pinpoint something out and tell him what's wrong with his games
|
On March 27 2013 16:46 ETisME wrote:
I remember when Destiny used to stream his coaching lessons, he would ask what's his problem and often get someone slightly higher league than him and find out what's wrong.
then he would go through the replay and coach him for the rematch.
I thoink nowadays with this group and the ability to restart a game, more coach should take this approach.
Lots of people think they aren't winning is for example, wrong unit composition but actually the losses are caused by something else more fundermental and a better player like you could pinpoint something out and tell him what's wrong with his games
Brilliant idea for the replay resume use. I've had a few students simply "not listen" when I would give my opinion. Nothing can be hard proof though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
