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The Zerg race has borne the brunt of a lot of negativity in recent months, and I worry that the WoL cycle is set to repeat itself in HotS: lots of struggling (only now in the face of taunts about 'patchzergs finding their rightful place' instead of 'lazy zergs not innovating'), gradually stabilising through build development and patches to the point where it's all but impossible for a zerg to win a game and be applauded for it.
To my mind the problem is and always has been that Zerg is too predictable. Predictability makes it easy to plan counters. When it's easy to plan counters they must be soft and defensible to preserve win-rate balance. Cue T/P complaints about WoL Zergs 'safely' droning up to their predictable late-game composition.
HotS isn't set to change that. Yes, widow mines and oracles are going to screw with Zergs. Yes, Protoss air is going to cause problems. But so long as Zerg remains the race that just wants to drone and take bases, the answer to all these problems will be strategies and patches that funnel Zergs into passive, defensive, frustrating play.
Here's one example of why Zergs are predictable. Compare Zerg and Terran drop play. Lair, overlord speed and overlord drop cost 400 gas. A factory, starport and two medivacs also costs 400 gas. So far, so similar.
However, it takes a full minute longer to go pool->lair->drop than it does to go barracks->factory->starport->medivac. And that's without building any queens, which tie up hatcheries for 50 seconds a pop. Want to put speedlings in those overlords? Another 100 gas. Banelings? At least 150 gas that's not coming home. Roaches? 100+ gas for units that do half the dps/supply of a marine.
Now factor in the lack of a wall-in to defend counters, the self-inflicted economic damage and the fact lings are just plain worse than marines at drop play. Now consider that Blizzard have decided the already cheaper, earlier, better and safer Terran drops needed to be greatly buffed in HotS in order to be worth it.
We can carry on all night. Rushing a couple of mutalisks compared to rushing a couple of phoenix or banshees. Rushing burrowed banelings versus rushing widow mines. The ability of a mineral-only warp prism to suddenly put ten zealots in your base, versus a Nydus worm that twiddles its thumbs for twenty seconds before announcing its intent to slowly dribble lings into your mineral line.
This is not a complaint that Zerg as a race is weak. Nobody can argue that. What frustrates me is that Zerg has so few ways to be strong. When that happens, and a 50/50 winrate is enforced through patches, people are going to get annoyed. Again.
Burrow at hatchery was a step in the right direction, as are Vipers as a way to keep large lair-tech armies relevant while a hive transition takes place. But why not go further? Why not apply more of the same 'Let's make it almost certainly OP and then dial it back' logic that's given us medivac afterburners, widow mines and Oracles?
Three changes I'd like to see tried:
1. Overlord drop reduced from 200/200/130 to 100/100/80. This makes it possible for a Zerg to put 16 speedlings in an overlord at a similar time and gas cost to a Terran dropping 8 marines.
2. Queen building in parallel with lair/upgrade research. Queens are a huge stealth nerf to Zerg flexibility in the early game: mandatory for defence, economy or aggression, yet they limit tech timing options in a way that T/P macro mechanics do not.
3. Nydus worms 'burrowed' for at least part of their construction time. Visible without detection in a similar way to burrowed roaches - maybe becoming more visible as they near completion. If I can be expected to watch the minimap and respond to a hellbat drop in the split second before my drones all catch fire, surely I don't need twenty seconds to deal with a Nydus.
Yes, all these changes would make Zerg stronger - but stronger in ways it's currently weak, not in ways it's already strong. Would there need to be nerfs to compensate? Maybe. Are the changes too much? Again, maybe. Perhaps 100/100/80 is a little too fast or too cheap. Perhaps 200/200/130 is actually fine and it just takes the nudge of a buff to help players figure it out.
I want to be able to cheer Zergs on for doing cool stuff that isn't stalling for mass corruptor and broodlords. And that's going to give T/P opportunities to win that doesn't involve fighting mass corruptor and broodlords. I don't want Blizzard to see a 15% win/loss swing in ZvX every time a new T/P strategy comes out because all Zergs are playing the same, and have to patch those strategies out of the game.
What do you think?
 
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1. Overlord drop reduced from 200/200/130 to 100/100/80. This makes it possible for a Zerg to put 16 speedlings in an overlord at a similar time and gas cost to a Terran dropping 8 marines.
Except every medivac is 100/100. For what you are suggesting...every single overlord will be a dropship for only 200 gas if you include speed.
Except overlords are required. So you instantly have a ridiculous amount of dropships.
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On March 09 2013 10:46 Umpteen wrote:
The Zerg race has borne the brunt of a lot of negativity in recent months, and I worry that the WoL cycle is set to repeat itself in HotS: lots of struggling (only now in the face of taunts about 'patchzergs finding their rightful place' instead of 'lazy zergs not innovating'), gradually stabilising through build development and patches to the point where it's all but impossible for a zerg to win a game and be applauded for it.
To my mind the problem is and always has been that Zerg is too predictable. Predictability makes it easy to plan counters. When it's easy to plan counters they must be soft and defensible to preserve win-rate balance. Cue T/P complaints about WoL Zergs 'safely' droning up to their predictable late-game composition.
HotS isn't set to change that. Yes, widow mines and oracles are going to screw with Zergs. Yes, Protoss air is going to cause problems. But so long as Zerg remains the race that just wants to drone and take bases, the answer to all these problems will be strategies and patches that funnel Zergs into passive, defensive, frustrating play.
Here's one example of why Zergs are predictable. Compare Zerg and Terran drop play. Lair, overlord speed and overlord drop cost 400 gas. A factory, starport and two medivacs also costs 400 gas. So far, so similar.
However, it takes a full minute longer to go pool->lair->drop than it does to go barracks->factory->starport->medivac. And that's without building any queens, which tie up hatcheries for 50 seconds a pop. Want to put speedlings in those overlords? Another 100 gas. Banelings? At least 150 gas that's not coming home. Roaches? 100+ gas for units that do half the dps/supply of a marine.
Now factor in the lack of a wall-in to defend counters, the self-inflicted economic damage and the fact lings are just plain worse than marines at drop play. Now consider that Blizzard have decided the already cheaper, earlier, better and safer Terran drops needed to be greatly buffed in HotS in order to be worth it.
We can carry on all night. Rushing a couple of mutalisks compared to rushing a couple of phoenix or banshees. Rushing burrowed banelings versus rushing widow mines. The ability of a mineral-only warp prism to suddenly put ten zealots in your base, versus a Nydus worm that twiddles its thumbs for twenty seconds before announcing its intent to slowly dribble lings into your mineral line.
This is not a complaint that Zerg as a race is weak. Nobody can argue that. What frustrates me is that Zerg has so few ways to be strong. When that happens, and a 50/50 winrate is enforced through patches, people are going to get annoyed. Again.
Burrow at hatchery was a step in the right direction, as are Vipers as a way to keep large lair-tech armies relevant while a hive transition takes place. But why not go further? Why not apply more of the same 'Let's make it almost certainly OP and then dial it back' logic that's given us medivac afterburners, widow mines and Oracles?
Three changes I'd like to see tried:
1. Overlord drop reduced from 200/200/130 to 100/100/80. This makes it possible for a Zerg to put 16 speedlings in an overlord at a similar time and gas cost to a Terran dropping 8 marines.
2. Queen building in parallel with lair/upgrade research. Queens are a huge stealth nerf to Zerg flexibility in the early game: mandatory for defence, economy or aggression, yet they limit tech timing options in a way that T/P macro mechanics do not.
3. Nydus worms 'burrowed' for at least part of their construction time. Visible without detection in a similar way to burrowed roaches - maybe becoming more visible as they near completion. If I can be expected to watch the minimap and respond to a hellbat drop in the split second before my drones all catch fire, surely I don't need twenty seconds to deal with a Nydus.
Yes, all these changes would make Zerg stronger - but stronger in ways it's currently weak, not in ways it's already strong. Would there need to be nerfs to compensate? Maybe. Are the changes too much? Again, maybe. Perhaps 100/100/80 is a little too fast or too cheap. Perhaps 200/200/130 is actually fine and it just takes the nudge of a buff to help players figure it out.
I want to be able to cheer Zergs on for doing cool stuff that isn't stalling for mass corruptor and broodlords. And that's going to give T/P opportunities to win that doesn't involve fighting mass corruptor and broodlords. I don't want Blizzard to see a 15% win/loss swing in ZvX every time a new T/P strategy comes out because all Zergs are playing the same, and have to patch those strategies out of the game.
What do you think?
So zerg is now stronger in places it was currently weak... Then where are they weak? It makes sense in theory but these are buffs. Zerg in it's current state may be boring but it's strong. You can't give it these buffs without taking something away. They would just be too good.
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I would like to see a buff to drop build speed (but not cost) if only so that mass ling/bane bombs could come back into style again...Along with a slight buff to pathing (so that they are more consistent).
That and a buff to nydus worms (so that people can start using them)...
If you really want to do more tech with Zerg, cut a queen and get a faster lair. I think most Zergs have forgotten that you have to make a choice between double upgrades and faster tech...It's too much to ask for both.
I think the core of what you are asking for are specific buffs to highlight alternative Zerg playstyles, which actually happen to be all the kickass playstyles that currently aren't possible (or are not as effective as a slow turtle or massive blob of 2 supply units).
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I remember when Terran was the most hated race, back when everything was TvT and all the zergs were crying. I remember a time when being toss meant a death sentence because blizz decided that toss was too strong at low levels of the ladder. I really don't think any of this will deflate the hate. The hate is based on people seeing a unit that takes little skill to use, a point and click aoe spell that does dmg and makes units frozen, taking over the metagame with another A move unit that synergizes with it. I'll be honest, none of this is based off the real problem. Yes drop play would be cute, but the issue is that at the end of the game, every zerg player has the same unit comp that steamrolls everything else. If this were changed, most people would stop hating on zerg. Then again, skytoss is about to become the next unkillable thing, I've seen a bunch of streamers cry imba about it, so we will see if the hate shifts to toss soon.
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On March 09 2013 10:46 Umpteen wrote:3. Nydus worms 'burrowed' for at least part of their construction time. Visible without detection in a similar way to burrowed roaches - maybe becoming more visible as they near completion. If I can be expected to watch the minimap and respond to a hellbat drop in the split second before my drones all catch fire, surely I don't need twenty seconds to deal with a Nydus.
This is not even a valid comparison. You can't see a cloaked unit on the minimap. This means you would have to watch your entire base constantly in order to stop a cloaked Nydus. For drops, you can spread overlords and see it coming. If you don't spot it, then yeah it will be hard to stop. Terran, Protoss, and Zerg would be required to get detectors all around their base in order to block it.
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On March 09 2013 10:46 Umpteen wrote:
The Zerg race has borne the brunt of a lot of negativity in recent months, and I worry that the WoL cycle is set to repeat itself in HotS: lots of struggling (only now in the face of taunts about 'patchzergs finding their rightful place' instead of 'lazy zergs not innovating'), gradually stabilising through build development and patches to the point where it's all but impossible for a zerg to win a game and be applauded for it.
To my mind the problem is and always has been that Zerg is too predictable. Predictability makes it easy to plan counters. When it's easy to plan counters they must be soft and defensible to preserve win-rate balance. Cue T/P complaints about WoL Zergs 'safely' droning up to their predictable late-game composition.
HotS isn't set to change that. Yes, widow mines and oracles are going to screw with Zergs. Yes, Protoss air is going to cause problems. But so long as Zerg remains the race that just wants to drone and take bases, the answer to all these problems will be strategies and patches that funnel Zergs into passive, defensive, frustrating play.
Here's one example of why Zergs are predictable. Compare Zerg and Terran drop play. Lair, overlord speed and overlord drop cost 400 gas. A factory, starport and two medivacs also costs 400 gas. So far, so similar.
However, it takes a full minute longer to go pool->lair->drop than it does to go barracks->factory->starport->medivac. And that's without building any queens, which tie up hatcheries for 50 seconds a pop. Want to put speedlings in those overlords? Another 100 gas. Banelings? At least 150 gas that's not coming home. Roaches? 100+ gas for units that do half the dps/supply of a marine.
Now factor in the lack of a wall-in to defend counters, the self-inflicted economic damage and the fact lings are just plain worse than marines at drop play. Now consider that Blizzard have decided the already cheaper, earlier, better and safer Terran drops needed to be greatly buffed in HotS in order to be worth it.
We can carry on all night. Rushing a couple of mutalisks compared to rushing a couple of phoenix or banshees. Rushing burrowed banelings versus rushing widow mines. The ability of a mineral-only warp prism to suddenly put ten zealots in your base, versus a Nydus worm that twiddles its thumbs for twenty seconds before announcing its intent to slowly dribble lings into your mineral line.
This is not a complaint that Zerg as a race is weak. Nobody can argue that. What frustrates me is that Zerg has so few ways to be strong. When that happens, and a 50/50 winrate is enforced through patches, people are going to get annoyed. Again.
Burrow at hatchery was a step in the right direction, as are Vipers as a way to keep large lair-tech armies relevant while a hive transition takes place. But why not go further? Why not apply more of the same 'Let's make it almost certainly OP and then dial it back' logic that's given us medivac afterburners, widow mines and Oracles?
Three changes I'd like to see tried:
1. Overlord drop reduced from 200/200/130 to 100/100/80. This makes it possible for a Zerg to put 16 speedlings in an overlord at a similar time and gas cost to a Terran dropping 8 marines.
2. Queen building in parallel with lair/upgrade research. Queens are a huge stealth nerf to Zerg flexibility in the early game: mandatory for defence, economy or aggression, yet they limit tech timing options in a way that T/P macro mechanics do not.
3. Nydus worms 'burrowed' for at least part of their construction time. Visible without detection in a similar way to burrowed roaches - maybe becoming more visible as they near completion. If I can be expected to watch the minimap and respond to a hellbat drop in the split second before my drones all catch fire, surely I don't need twenty seconds to deal with a Nydus.
Yes, all these changes would make Zerg stronger - but stronger in ways it's currently weak, not in ways it's already strong. Would there need to be nerfs to compensate? Maybe. Are the changes too much? Again, maybe. Perhaps 100/100/80 is a little too fast or too cheap. Perhaps 200/200/130 is actually fine and it just takes the nudge of a buff to help players figure it out.
I want to be able to cheer Zergs on for doing cool stuff that isn't stalling for mass corruptor and broodlords. And that's going to give T/P opportunities to win that doesn't involve fighting mass corruptor and broodlords. I don't want Blizzard to see a 15% win/loss swing in ZvX every time a new T/P strategy comes out because all Zergs are playing the same, and have to patch those strategies out of the game.
What do you think?
If you want to make drops more viable for zergs, you basically need to change the entire larvae mechanics. Because the only way terrans and Protoss can deal with early Zerg aggression is to use wall offs. If zergs can by pass that, you will just see a lot of 2 base roach drops. Protoss and terrans can't fight mass roaches head on until that have force fields, or bio upgrades like stim and Combat shields.
Comparing Zerg units 1v1 vs Terran/Protoss just doesn't work. You mentioned mutas vs banshees. But you have to considered it is a lot easier to pump up 7-8 mutas compare to 7-8 banshees. The production mechanics are just too different.
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I'm just speaking for WoL here:
For me the problem is different: Zerg units aren't microable. I would like to say that Zerg players don't micro, which is true, but it would be kind of insulting and it's not the root of the problem, so I'm just gonna say that they can't really micro unmicroable units.
Do you remember your favorite battle highlight of your favorite zerg player? Well it's probably a glorious A-move on a clueless P or T army, with 2 or 3 F keystrokes, not some awesomely placed forcefields or blink micro or marine split, pick up micro or whatever. This, but not this. Don't get me wrong, it's no less glorious, but it's a glorious 1A nonetheless.
Zerg obviously has a lot else to do other than microing units, I'm not arguing the contrary (macro, having map control, creep spread, map awareness/drop spotting, etc etc).
But to balance the race, you have to balance its units. Either they are too weak, and every Zerg player dies, even the best, because they can't get much more out of their crappy units anyway, either they're too strong, and every random ladder hero faceroll gangnam style terran and protoss armies.
It's even sadder that at the end of WoL, the fun and skillbased units Zerg can use (ling, mutas, things like that) are not even their most effective units. Better just open with 6 queens (so exciting!), roach bust or go for the doom cloud that barely moves (so I guess it's less of an A-move, more like A-crawl).
What it creates in us random terran and protoss ladder nobodies when we lose to you zerg gosus, is the frustration that in the ultimate battle (you know, where we lose everything while you're still at 200/200 remaxing in infestors, broodlords and 80 lings), you didn't even seem to "try". You just shat on us with your units and it did the trick, while we had to push buttons and click like madmen to still die miserably.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg) This
That's our feeling at least, I'm not saying that's the reality. After all you did do something, you at least held down that Z key long enough to produce the following 80 lings, props to you.
I hope HotS will change that, but for now, my Zerg hate is still going strong 
I would love to like Zerg again btw, and there are still Zergs I respect (usually the ones who despise/are not really successful at the current Zerg gameplay), like DRG or Nestea. I'm even going to watch the last ZvZ finals, I hope it'll be worth it.
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Thanks for the thoughtful responses, all Quick reply to some of them:
This is not even a valid comparison. You can't see a cloaked unit on the minimap. This means you would have to watch your entire base constantly in order to stop a cloaked Nydus. For drops, you can spread overlords and see it coming. If you don't spot it, then yeah it will be hard to stop. Terran, Protoss, and Zerg would be required to get detectors all around their base in order to block it.
This is not an accurate assessment. I said that it could be burrowed for only part of the building process. How many seconds does it take a boosted medivac to get into a base? Four or five? So why is twenty seconds visibility necessary for a Nydus?
If you want to make drops more viable for zergs, you basically need to change the entire larvae mechanics. Because the only way terrans and Protoss can deal with early Zerg aggression is to use wall offs. If zergs can by pass that, you will just see a lot of 2 base roach drops. Protoss and terrans can't fight mass roaches head on until that have force fields, or bio upgrades like stim and Combat shields.
So what you're saying is that having drops a minute earlier and 100 gas cheaper would take 2-base roach drops from something so worthless nobody ever does it to completely unstoppable? And there's no way we could find a middle ground (as I suggested in the 'try something probably OP and then dial it back' part of my blog)?
Comparing Zerg units 1v1 vs Terran/Protoss just doesn't work. You mentioned mutas vs banshees. But you have to considered it is a lot easier to pump up 7-8 mutas compare to 7-8 banshees. The production mechanics are just too different.
It's easier, yes, but it's still the same amount of money spent on other stuff you don't have. If I have 7-8 mutas I don't have 800/800 of other units or drones. If a Terran harasses with one or two banshees he's down a much smaller amount - and one or two banshees are a meaningful threat. One or two muta are not. Zerg is predictable because everything requires so much commitment.
I didn't suggest buffing mutas (or indeed any units) precisely because Zerg has the CAPABILITY of investing heavily and quickly in them. That's Zerg's strength and it doesn't need making stronger.
Except every medivac is 100/100. For what you are suggesting...every single overlord will be a dropship for only 200 gas if you include speed.
Except overlords are required. So you instantly have a ridiculous amount of dropships.
But that's already true right now, for just 300 gas, and still nobody uses them! The 100 extra gas only matters because of how much it blunts early drop play. And because we are talking about early, the number of dropships is less relevant because there's only so much you even have to drop! Also, overlords don't heal, which is another big reason Terran drops are so strong.
So zerg is now stronger in places it was currently weak... Then where are they weak? It makes sense in theory but these are buffs. Zerg in it's current state may be boring but it's strong. You can't give it these buffs without taking something away. They would just be too good.
You're conflating different kinds of weakness and strength. Yes, Zerg is boring but strong. If it got other strong options, would it automatically make the current boring ones stronger? Maybe a bit, if you don't bother scouting, but I already said there might need to be nerfs elsewhere.
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I like all these ideas. I don't think Zerg is too weak, but I do think it lacks variety.
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I think the corruptor is the root of the problem. The answer to broodlords has to be air-to-air units like vikings, but the answer to that should not be more air-to-air units because then you just get silly who can 1-a the hardest scenarios rather than air units trying to get a positional advantage over ground units with a strength advantage.
As long as the corruptor just a-moves over other air-to-air units you can never have interesting compositions or micro battles.
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If I were going to do anything to a unit, I think it would be to make Hydra better against air (range and/or damage). It helps break up muta vs muta, it softens Colossus as a counter, and it could make engaging VR/Colossus/Templar something exciting and positional rather than 'Well, I made all the corruptors; let's see if I've banked enough to remax when they're dead'.
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On March 10 2013 10:22 Umpteen wrote:
If I were going to do anything to a unit, I think it would be to make Hydra better against air (range and/or damage). It helps break up muta vs muta, it softens Colossus as a counter, and it could make engaging VR/Colossus/Templar something exciting and positional rather than 'Well, I made all the corruptors; let's see if I've banked enough to remax when they're dead'.
I'd like to see maybe an increase in the size of Hydras so they don't get instantly obliterated by splash
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I wouldn't have so much of a problem with zerg but the way larva works is absolutely ridiculous... They really need to reduce the cap on hatcheries and I would also say weaken spawn larva itself. The fact that a zerg can go up to 3base and only needs to spend 450 on another building to have sufficient production for all bases is insane. 40 seconds+production time of most zerg tier 1/1.5 units gives zerg a fairly comfortable cushion between seeing an attack and being attacked, which means droning is really easy to get away with, since you essentially know the attack is coming as the enemy army moves out
And then, of course, in lategame with 6+ hatcheries maxed out on larva, zerg only needs to spend ~30-40 larva to remax, and that's 2 hatcheries' worth. With a big enough bank, they have zero need to spend money on production aside from queens and expansion hatches, which also makes the process of zerg remaxing a lot more cost efficient than any other race.
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On March 10 2013 11:13 GTPGlitch wrote:
I wouldn't have so much of a problem with zerg but the way larva works is absolutely ridiculous... They really need to reduce the cap on hatcheries and I would also say weaken spawn larva itself. The fact that a zerg can go up to 3base and only needs to spend 450 on another building to have sufficient production for all bases is insane. 40 seconds+production time of most zerg tier 1/1.5 units gives zerg a fairly comfortable cushion between seeing an attack and being attacked, which means droning is really easy to get away with, since you essentially know the attack is coming as the enemy army moves out
And then, of course, in lategame with 6+ hatcheries maxed out on larva, zerg only needs to spend ~30-40 larva to remax, and that's 2 hatcheries' worth. With a big enough bank, they have zero need to spend money on production aside from queens and expansion hatches, which also makes the process of zerg remaxing a lot more cost efficient than any other race.
Protoss can reinforce instantly into the battle. Not any worse than Zerg's production mechanic
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On March 10 2013 11:19 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 11:13 GTPGlitch wrote:
I wouldn't have so much of a problem with zerg but the way larva works is absolutely ridiculous... They really need to reduce the cap on hatcheries and I would also say weaken spawn larva itself. The fact that a zerg can go up to 3base and only needs to spend 450 on another building to have sufficient production for all bases is insane. 40 seconds+production time of most zerg tier 1/1.5 units gives zerg a fairly comfortable cushion between seeing an attack and being attacked, which means droning is really easy to get away with, since you essentially know the attack is coming as the enemy army moves out
And then, of course, in lategame with 6+ hatcheries maxed out on larva, zerg only needs to spend ~30-40 larva to remax, and that's 2 hatcheries' worth. With a big enough bank, they have zero need to spend money on production aside from queens and expansion hatches, which also makes the process of zerg remaxing a lot more cost efficient than any other race. Protoss can reinforce instantly into the battle. Not any worse than Zerg's production mechanic
1) requires a pylon or warp prism: early game is the only time pylon is sustainable, and lategame warp prism usually dies unless placed fairly far back so it's not technically instantly into the battle
2) Protoss has to build robotics bays, stargates, and gateways. It's not like they build a gogocolossus building and then can just spawn them from the nexus...
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^You need to invest 150 minerals for every unit you want to warp in "instantly." There are more costs associated with it. Not that it invalidates your argument. 40 minutes into the game Toss have like 30 gateways anyway.
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EPT
