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The Three Things To Learn Before Age 20:
(This is by no means EVERYTHING you should know, just three things I consider important - purely my own opinion)
LESSON ONE: You can’t change other people. This can extend as far as you like, but in particular in changing people’s opinions. We live in a very connected and communicative environment, constantly interacting with people, sharing our ideas on absolutely everything. It is literally unavoidable in such an environment to confront somebody on an issue of disagreement. And I’m here to tell you if you didn’t already know you will not win any arguments in real life. Yes arguments can be won in a formal debate or in government. But in day to day life you can’t, this is a common mistake and one that will cause you immense frustration on a day to day basis. If you run into somebody with a differing world view or values to your own your best course of action is to simply walk away. This goes double in an online environment. Yelling and screaming at someone isn’t ever, ever going to change their view on something – religion, politics, or morality.
If you catch yourself having such an argument with a person ask yourself, “Are they going to be able to change my mind on this matter?”. If the answer is “no”, as it is likely to be, why would you assume your opponent is going to change his? The only thing more annoying than seeing somebody with a stupidly wrong idea or perspective on something is trying to logical illustrate why they are wrong and for them to stubbornly refuse to acknowledge their wrongness. You will achieve nothing then leaving yourself stressed, angry and potentially one friend shorter. If you’re having a conversation with someone and they say something that you believe is wrong, let it slide. If you ignore it you can continue on having a chat with whomever it is, if you pull them up on it your likely going to get angry at each other and ruin whatever you were doing previously. The concept that you can ‘win’ an argument or debate is a falsehood, and by avoiding these situations by simply walking away or ignoring them in an online environment will save you endless hours of frustration.
LESSON TWO: You are cocky and arrogant. Yes you are, don’t argue otherwise. It’s called having self-esteem and while self-esteem is good as it lets you be a confident, independent individual, it has a double edged sword. Have you ever been wrong in a situation and admitted to it, all the while saying to yourself in your head why that actually was not the case? Ever missed an opportunity or failed to achieve something in life and conveniently had a perfectly good reason why you failed? If it is convenient then it’s probably not a real reason. Humans (with any scrape of self-esteem) naturally make reasons as to why everyone else is mistaken, not you. This can apply from having failed an exam (“I was not trying that time, but if I did I would have passed”) to a car accident (“I am not a bad driver; it was his fault for not reacting”) or avoiding a fight (“If I did get in a fight, I know that if I really try hard I will win”).
I’m not saying having self-esteem is a bad thing; it is a very very good thing. It just pays later on down the track to be aware of when you are making excuses for yourself and not excepting reality. Very rarely is the whole world wrong and you’re right. Being able to observe you response to something from an objective position lets you know when you really are in the right, doing what is right for you. At the same time it prevents you from fooling yourself into thinking something that is not. Be aware of yourself.
LESSON THREE: Life is not fair and just. This is a pretty big lesson. While I would assume everyone comes to realize this well before they turn twenty, many do not in its full entirety and scope. Bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people – the complete opposite of pretty much anything you read or watched as a young child. It is ingrained in us through school and the how we are raised: that those with authority know what is right, and can only do right. This relates the most to the government or schooling for a young adult but also for smaller institutions like friendship groups or family. Though these institutions have always been, are and will be around doesn’t mean that at any point they are fair or just. Guilty people do not always end up convicted; innocent people do not end up free. If you are pulled over by a cop and you were doing nothing wrong by no way prevents you from being punished. If you read in the newspaper that somebody, or a group of people is bad, did wrong and should be punished does not mean that it is true. When you look at developing countries on the news, hearing of how some journalist or protester has been locked up you naturally question it – did they deserve to be locked up? Is this an instance of tyranny? Why don’t you ask these questions when the same thing happens within your own boarders?
Modern society works on the principle, not of protecting the individual as you may hope, but on prosecuting the individual who is seen to threaten the protection of others. It is not always there to help you just because you’re a participating member of it.
  
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Most people don't realise that the "don't waste your time arguing with people online" mantra extends to real life as well.
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Lesson one had a good and promising topic, but you then went on to talk about arguments instead of changing people's personalities. The lesson here is that there's a distinction between arguments that are coalescent in nature and arguments that are not, i.e. that are either born out of an interest to learn from each other or just forcefully drag the other person to what you think is true. Being aware of that distinction is a useful talent toi have.
Lesson two is a tough one; there's a difference between arrogance and self-esteem. Sure we do have a tendency to rationalize mistakes, but that doesn't make one arrogant or cocky. Being able to admit that one is fallible is a much greater sign of proper self-esteem than thinking of oneself as never mistaken - this is because the latter is mostly due to insecurity. Your conclusion is correct though: Knowing about yourself is really tough if, especially in adolescence, you're mostly influenced by peer pressure.
Lesson three is meh: Sure, life is not fair. Society is not fair. The justice system is not perfect. So let's work to make it better. Insist on your rights, be loud about injustice, get mad at mistreatment. Righteous anger is a virtue. Putting effort into making a just society is the idea behind all the stories about the good being rewarded and the evil punished etc.
2/5
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On December 29 2012 18:54 Smokincoyote wrote:
The Three Things To Learn Before Age 20:
(This is by no means EVERYTHING you should know, just three things I consider important - purely my own opinion)
LESSON ONE: You can’t change other people. This can extend as far as you like, but in particular in changing people’s opinions. We live in a very connected and communicative environment, constantly interacting with people, sharing our ideas on absolutely everything. It is literally unavoidable in such an environment to confront somebody on an issue of disagreement. And I’m here to tell you if you didn’t already know you will not win any arguments in real life. Yes arguments can be won in a formal debate or in government. But in day to day life you can’t, this is a common mistake and one that will cause you immense frustration on a day to day basis. If you run into somebody with a differing world view or values to your own your best course of action is to simply walk away. This goes double in an online environment. Yelling and screaming at someone isn’t ever, ever going to change their view on something – religion, politics, or morality.
screaming, arguing, isnt ever going to change viewpoints. being open to whatever anybody has to say will. this point assumes the cockiness and arrogance of point 2 and the continued education of a student -- being wrong is WRONG~!
except, its not. its a necessary part of the maturing process. the real reasoning behind point 1 is that if you decide to engage in persuasion, you need to be open to persuasion yourself or the whole process means nothing. be open, attentive and accepting of others and once you understand their point of view, suddenly the world is a little more familiar.
actually, what i think this lesson is trying to say is that people will never seek to improve themselves except when required by themselves. you can't change people unless they want to change. the hardest part of this is keeping quiet when your experience can shortcut months of woes and mistakes by somebody close to you -- but whats most valuable is their ability to improve themselves. keep quiet and dont seek to improve their situation unless they ask.
and trust me, once they ask its fair game. but if you force that information on them before its ready, thats harmful
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Russian Federation748 Posts
Aren't you contradicting yourself in 2) and 3) ? You're claiming the world is unfair, yet just one paragraph before :
Very rarely is the whole world wrong and you’re right
If the world is unfair, it's all but natural people should fail to achieve their goals or run into trouble even when they have done nothing to deserve it, it's the definition of unfairness. You mention failing an exam as an example ; what if the exam is poorly conceived and favours bad students ? Is one supposed to concurrently acknowledge its unfairness and yet blame oneself for not succeeding ?
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On December 29 2012 20:11 Kyrillion wrote:Aren't you contradicting yourself in 2) and 3) ? You're claiming the world is unfair, yet just one paragraph before : If the world is unfair, it's all but natural people should fail to achieve their goals or run into trouble even when they have done nothing to deserve it, it's the definition of unfairness. You mention failing an exam as an example ; what if the exam is poorly conceived and favours bad students ? Is one supposed to concurrently acknowledge its unfairness and yet blame oneself for not succeeding ?
Good point, I haven't explained it well enough and have contradicted myself.
The context of points two and three are different. Where I stated in lesson two that rarely are you right and the world is wrong I meant it in the context of individual actions, like your driving skills or passing an exam. Yes perhaps the exam favors bad students or the road rules are illogical but that is a much greater picture. If you feel that you were able to pass an exam and did not, there is no point in rationalizing your failings when you believe that you can pass. If you could pass then you would. If you say one thing and the world hears something different then you're probably kidding yourself. I didn't intend for point two to be applied to the greater picture of right / wrong - I should have been more clear about that in the OP.
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You take lesson one for granted, and yet you post this on the internet of all places?
/joke
You can actually change other people through any possible form of communication. For example, by getting into a furious argument with someone, you change their opinion of you for the worse, and quite possibly go so far as to form or further develop a stereotype against people who share your opinion. By helping someone, you change their opinion of you for the better. The ability to change other people is why any living being cares for another living being. People that you associate as kind, friendly, and helpful are people that you believe can change you for the better. The opposite is true as well; people that you associate as evil, treacherous, and harmful are people that you believe can change you for the worse. You maintain friendships because you gain more as an individual when you actively seek out communication with that person. The more someone changes you positively, the more you like them, leading to more positive changes.
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I must completely disagree with your lesson one, I have argued with friends on many occasions, sometimes merely for the sake of it, but in scenarios involving politics or morality we occasionally admit being wrong, myself or one of them and accept our view as being flawed, there's no screaming or yelling involved. I never enter an argument completely unwilling to compromise, I personally despise the kind of people that are stubborn without reason. Even if I'm wrong about me changing their mind about something, I know they changed my outlook and I cannot be the only one.
I appreciate the irony here of course.
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I'm ok with your three lessons. Come at me my 20th Birthday ! 2 more years to wait !
( about lesson 1, I still love arguing for the sake of arguing. Rustling the jimmies of someone is always fun)
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I disagree with just about all of these, but in context. You can't force other people to change, but people will change if they want to keep something in their lives. What you are arguing is saying that if you ask someone to quit smoking in a relationship, you are saying they won't do that ever, not even to keep the relationship. That just isn't how that works. Furthermore, as much as #2 makes sense, I'd like to think that I have some humility in me when I need it. To hear you make such matter-of-fact claims about my manners is actually somewhat insulting. I gotta say as much as you may thinks these are true, the irony is that they apply to you much more than they apply to others. Kyrillion pretty much said it right.
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Disagree with no.1
You can't change peoples opinion on the spot is more appropriate, but if you talk sense and an extreme change isn't required you will often change peoples opinions, they'll just need time to think and they won't admit it. Otherwise we'd never progress and our opinions wouldn't change.
I don't see your lesson in no.2, you just say self esteem is good but also bad without really clarifying why, unless you think being wrong is bad? Why?
I think a far more important lesson is, it doesn't matter who's wrong or who's right, only who people think is wrong or right. Very few places are meritocracies.
On no.3, you talk about life being unfair then just give examples of the law. Life can't be judged as fair or unfair as those are human concepts, applicable only to our own creations, like law.
Modern society works on the principle, not of protecting the individual as you may hope, but on prosecuting the individual who is seen to threaten the protection of others. It is not always there to help you just because you’re a participating member of it.
That's an extremely bold statement to make, first off, simply because you've generalized across borders. I'm sure there are systems which embrace that philosophy but many do not. Many would say their laws are to preserve religious values, or defend the liberty of others, not just punish those who disagree with their values.
The problem you've ultimately come across though, is that you can't write these things down, at least not in a short easily digestible format. I'm sure everyone here understands the points you're trying to make, but they only understand because they know already.
If it were a simple case of writing down a few paragraphs of wisdom we'd all learn it as soon as we can read.
The fact is, first off it requires experience in the world, to become less self centered and also to have a fully developed brain.
If you want to read about this kind of stuff though there are plenty of places, philosophy is a broad subject, but books like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, the works of Seneca / Satre etc etc all provide interesting takes, although its always useful to consider the times in which they were hypothesized, there is usually some useful things to take away.
Then of course the modern equivalent, psychology, understanding the quirks of humanity goes a long way.
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#1 Is very true. Educating uncooperative morons is almost always EV-
You should only argue with them if you have some time to waste and if you want to have a good laugh or get better at arguying lol. I'm also obviously assuming that you are not discussing non sensical stuff like religion, politics, lolconomics, metaphilolulzphy, morals etc... (otherwise we get a pair of morons). Now that i think about it you can actually teach maths, law and a bit of history to morons as long as they are honest and obedients but then you are not really arguying.
#2 Confidence is always good, as long as it is backed by some experience. However for many people (and i would say for most nerdlings on TL) the main problem is actually underconfidence which is something way worse. As a young guy you will rarely get blamed for being a bit over confident as long as you are not obnoxious or downright retarded. Actually it will even help you in several aspects of your life. It will help you to get jobs for example. Recruiters love that kind of people and they will usually pick the sligthly overconfident person instead of the shy guy if their resume isn't too different.
#3 Is sooooooooooooo true and it is one of the hardest thing to understand about life if you have been educated with all the moralistic bs, religious or secular (way more pernicious). That's why so many young people get so passionate about politics, justice, liberty, equality and dumb stuff like that and then they grow up and become depressive, remain passionated (and stupid) and at best they become cynics. Took me 23 years to learn that and i can relate a lot when you say that you need to know that before 20 lol. But i think that's not really something you can learn easily, you have to experience some profound disillusions first. My 20-23 were pretty bad haha.
The thing is that you will never change how life works. Some people have to be poor and some people have to die.
If you can't do anything about it (i mean helping a particular person) and if it doesn't affect people you geniously like, you should not be sad and you should NEVER feel guilty. That's what i hate the most about NGO running on donations, they try so hard to make you feel guilty that it becomes disgusting, they are like those fake beggars who are plaguing downtown areas in Europe. They are paying PR people and they want you to send money to African children or whatever is the latest trend in genetic diseases ? Fuck them, ask the doctors, the med firms and lab technicians to work for free if they want to make the world better. Maybe they will tell them to fuck off too. You are not responsible for all the tsunamis, earthquakes, bad DNA and famines around the world. Now if you still want to make a donation go ahead but please don't blame me and don't try to make me feel guilty.
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EPT
