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This is a discussion I'd like to ask the community about what their take on this subject is. It somewhat boggles my mind how some of these diamond players play vs how I play. As a former GM, I just cannot go back into thinking how a diamond player would think. My noob days are over and its hard to have "fun" with my other friends that arn't as good as me.
So I'd like to compare and ask other diamond players why is that? I mainly want to ask this so I could coach better with players other than masters. I'll give some examples.
People say its the lack of play time. For the majority of diamond players that would be true but while some not so much. I have friends who are diamond and play almost everyday and never get into masters.
What about APM? I'll counter this question with, what about strategy? If your APM is low wouldn't you atleast have better strategy? I mean I see people with the dumbest strategies and just are so retarded. Their army position is terrible and their defense weak as hell. Some just land their 3rd with no army and hope they don't get attacked. People a move their army towards the enemy base and don't think about counter attacks? I mean wtf? Why don't diamond players think about this stuff if their apm is lower or higher. Why do people all rally their army in one place instead of spread them in two spots to cover both main and natural if they know some sort of drop or all in would occur? Instead you find ppl just get 10 scvs killed. Don't you think about a couple games you would think to think of a way to counter this? Why don't you scout a certain angle so you know where to position your army?
I mean I could get into masters by just clicking on the hotkeys or just make only marines. Its definately not the question of your build, unless you do something greedy.
Another thing is, some diamond players watch pro streams and GSL games but yet have no clue how to handle the army. I see diamond players run their entire army of infestors with their army attacking instead of pulling them away. If you see them die all the time why the fuck don't you change your hotkeys so you have infestors one key and army in another. I know you diamond players see the mistake there but are you stubborn to change your ways? Lazy? Or you don't care?
Why do you take a 4th base in the middle of the map and position your army in your natural and get ur 4th base killed? WTF!! I may seem like im venting steam here but this is just ridculous.
I play this custom game where you have a microer and a macroer and I was macroing for this diamond player and we are doubled the supply of the enemy in a TvT. This diamond player was so afraid of seige tanks even tho we have 3/3 vs 1/1 and doubled supply we could've crushed him multiple times. Why isn't it after so many games played you still can't look at an army and say, "Oh yea, I can definately crush that".
I mean all this is just strategy and smart thinking which I assume everyone has some sort of logical thinking if they plan to play starcraft. I could name more but it would just be redundant. But for someone who is trying to improve how come this stuff doesn't cross your mind? Wtf are you thinking about how much that you totally ignore some of these points.
Edit: I am more of asking how come lower leaguers don't try to fix these problems even tho they have identified them instead of them not being able to execute it? If you keep forgeting to do something how come you don't fix it? Yet after a couple season its still a problem for you?
 
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I won't speak for other diamond leaguers, but for me, I've spent so much time focusing on mechanics and nothing else that I genuinely don't have a great sense of how to scout, position well, what army can beat what, when I should be on the map, etc. etc. You can very easily get to Diamond (or even low masters?) just by steamrolling your opponent with better macro and enough "gamesense" to not die to completely stupid bullshit, so true "tactical" play doesn't really even come into the picture.
For example, my brother came to visit yesterday, and we played like ten games... he beat me in nearly all of them, despite not having played for a really long time (granted, I'm rusty too), just because he's been playing since BW and has much better game sense. I simply don't run into opponents that actually know how to exploit my weaknesses, and thus don't learn how to really fix them. I don't play people who go "I'm going to check if his third is under-defended, and maybe I can pull him out of position with my mutas and do a big ling runby if he overcommits." I play people who say "I have a lot of zerglings, and I see good zergs run their zerglings into people's base and kill probes, so I'm gonna do that" even if there's 4 gates blocking, a bunch of sentries, and three cannons."
edit: I guess I didn't really make my main point: you don't just magically do things that good players do just by knowing that you're supposed to do it, otherwise we'd all be really fucking good. Asking why players that aren't as good as you don't make intelligent in-game decisions is just like me asking why people in Silver suck ass at macro. You know you're not supposed to get supply blocked, you know you're supposed to constantly build SCVs, you know you're supposed to keep your money low, so why the hell don't you do it, silver leaguer? The answer is obvious: they aren't accustomed enough to the game yet, so their time and mental energy is being used elsewhere. Starcraft is a really hard game, it takes a lot of practice to get to the point where you can really think about what you're doing.
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On December 22 2012 13:02 corpuscle wrote:
I won't speak for other diamond leaguers, but for me, I've spent so much time focusing on mechanics and nothing else that I genuinely don't have a great sense of how to scout, position well, what army can beat what, when I should be on the map, etc. etc. You can very easily get to Diamond (or even low masters?) just by steamrolling your opponent with better macro and enough "gamesense" to not die to completely stupid bullshit, so true "tactical" play doesn't really even come into the picture.
For example, my brother came to visit yesterday, and we played like ten games... he beat me in nearly all of them, despite not having played for a really long time (granted, I'm rusty too), just because he's been playing since BW and has much better game sense. I simply don't run into opponents that actually know how to exploit my weaknesses, and thus don't learn how to really fix them. I don't play people who go "I'm going to check if his third is under-defended, and maybe I can pull him out of position with my mutas and do a big ling runby if he overcommits." I play people who say "I have a lot of zerglings, and I see good zergs run their zerglings into people's base and kill probes, so I'm gonna do that" even if there's 4 gates blocking, a bunch of sentries, and three cannons."
edit: I guess I didn't really make my main point: you don't just magically do things that good players do just by knowing that you're supposed to do it, otherwise we'd all be really fucking good. Asking why players that aren't as good as you don't make intelligent in-game decisions is just like me asking why people in Silver suck ass at macro. You know you're not supposed to get supply blocked, you know you're supposed to constantly build SCVs, you know you're supposed to keep your money low, so why the hell don't you do it, silver leaguer? The answer is obvious: they aren't accustomed enough to the game yet, so their time and mental energy is being used elsewhere. Starcraft is a really hard game, it takes a lot of practice to get to the point where you can really think about what you're doing.
That still doesn't answer the question about the mere amount of time playing starcraft. Its like also saying that if you practice the piano a lot you should be good at it after a while. I got players who been playing since release and still silver and I mean constant playing, not on and off. There is something going on in their minds that I can't explain.
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Personally I'm a high diamond-ish player, and I know I should be scouting all the time, but I forget to do it because I can't get used to it >.> and when I know I have to, I feel like "eh, it's too inconvenient to scout right now, and I can guess what he's doing anyway" 
EDIT: To clarify, I know about a lot of the things that I should be doing, but I don't always do them because I forget about them while I'm in the game. Force of habit is hard to break.
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On December 22 2012 13:09 gfever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 13:02 corpuscle wrote:
I won't speak for other diamond leaguers, but for me, I've spent so much time focusing on mechanics and nothing else that I genuinely don't have a great sense of how to scout, position well, what army can beat what, when I should be on the map, etc. etc. You can very easily get to Diamond (or even low masters?) just by steamrolling your opponent with better macro and enough "gamesense" to not die to completely stupid bullshit, so true "tactical" play doesn't really even come into the picture.
For example, my brother came to visit yesterday, and we played like ten games... he beat me in nearly all of them, despite not having played for a really long time (granted, I'm rusty too), just because he's been playing since BW and has much better game sense. I simply don't run into opponents that actually know how to exploit my weaknesses, and thus don't learn how to really fix them. I don't play people who go "I'm going to check if his third is under-defended, and maybe I can pull him out of position with my mutas and do a big ling runby if he overcommits." I play people who say "I have a lot of zerglings, and I see good zergs run their zerglings into people's base and kill probes, so I'm gonna do that" even if there's 4 gates blocking, a bunch of sentries, and three cannons."
edit: I guess I didn't really make my main point: you don't just magically do things that good players do just by knowing that you're supposed to do it, otherwise we'd all be really fucking good. Asking why players that aren't as good as you don't make intelligent in-game decisions is just like me asking why people in Silver suck ass at macro. You know you're not supposed to get supply blocked, you know you're supposed to constantly build SCVs, you know you're supposed to keep your money low, so why the hell don't you do it, silver leaguer? The answer is obvious: they aren't accustomed enough to the game yet, so their time and mental energy is being used elsewhere. Starcraft is a really hard game, it takes a lot of practice to get to the point where you can really think about what you're doing. That still doesn't answer the question about the mere amount of time playing starcraft. Its like also saying that if you practice the piano a lot you should be good at it after a while. I got players who been playing since release and still silver and I mean constant playing, not on and off. There is something going on in their minds that I can't explain.
If you practice the piano all the time but only play chopsticks (or any other easy song), no, you will never get good at piano. To get good at something, you have to be willing to push yourself past your comfort zone and try to fix your weaknesses, not just do the same thing over and over again.
You're right that there's something going on in their heads, but it's not too complicated. They just don't care enough to push themselves towards that next level, don't know how, or are too stubborn to work it out. It's really pretty simple. I've spent like six months in Diamond trying to improve using the same methods that got me there, and I've realized in the past month or so that it isn't working at all (and I actually kind of regressed because I stopped playing out of frustration).
edit: also I know I said it before, but this is a really hard game. I know Diamond players seem bad to you, but they're still better than 85% of the people that play this game. It's simply not that easy to get good, it takes work, and if it was really that simple, everyone would be awesome at SC.
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I think a lot depends on how eager you are to improve.
If you feel comfortable with how you play, you wont try as hard to fix problems. If you want to improve a lot I believe you need a mindset that allows you to practice things that will make you lose games while practicing it. Rather than just playing the way you feel good about. It all comes down to what you consider fun, do you value progress higher than comfort?
Also, another point which I believe hinders a lot of people who actually do strive for improvement is that they are not humble enough when it comes to their shortcomings and bad habits. You need to be able to recognize your own mistakes if you are to fix them.
I think there are many other reasons that can play a part in all of this too, but the above mentioned attitudes of comfort and pride are two of the bigger problems for a lot of StarCraft gamers in my opinion.
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On December 22 2012 13:31 wwJd)El_Mojjo wrote:
I think a lot depends on how eager you are to improve.
If you feel comfortable with how you play, you wont try as hard to fix problems. If you want to improve a lot I believe you need a mindset that allows you to practice things that will make you lose games while practicing it. Rather than just playing the way you feel good about. It all comes down to what you consider fun, do you value progress higher than comfort?
Also, another point which I believe hinders a lot of people who actually do strive for improvement is that they are not humble enough when it comes to their shortcomings and bad habits. You need to be able to recognize your own mistakes if you are to fix them.
I think there are many other reasons that can play a part in all of this too, but the above mentioned attitudes of comfort and pride are two of the bigger problems for a lot of StarCraft gamers in my opinion.
Yeah, I've unintentionally failed a LOT to the second part. I'm too fucking stubborn to accept my losses as being my own fault... I need to work on that. The problem with it is that SC2 doesn't give a lot of feedback unless you analyze your reps hardcore. You can't immediately say "ok I lost because X", you have to go in depth and face your failure, and that's hard to do.
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I want to compare my experiences on how I came to be a GM in starcraft.
First I was introduced to age of empires: the conquers expansion from one of my cousins. I was instantly hooked. At first I would only make like 6 or 8 villagers per game thinking that oh if I save my resources instead of spending them I can tech faster. This was when I was like 10 years old. I played this game for the next 1-2 years, and over time I learned about build orders and tried to execute them, some were successful and it was all fun during that learning experience. I then got the mindset that if I had more villagers I would have a larger army so that was my main goal. Get as many villagers as possible in the least amount of time. Again I'm like 13 during that time.
Once age of mythology came along I switched to that and learned a lot more about microing armies and counters to certain builds. Most important thing was the loki rush which was the scariest rush I had encountered and literally thought it was impossible to stop and it was a race auto win. Until I got access to agesanctuary's replay database and it opened TONS OF DOORS. I was able to analysis replays over and over and learned to counter this strategy and that was my major turning point during my gaming experience. Learning to seek problems and solve them by watching others better than me. I played this game for the next 5 years on and off.
I then played Guild wars, tho its not a real time strategy it still has elements of strategy. I was a major PvP elitist, I played so much PvP that I unlocked all the PvP skills and their were almost 500+ skills each like 10,000 points to unlock. But the main thing I got out of it was teamwork and important of each skill in each player's bar. So essentially composition.
Next I played Gears of War 1 and 2 professional. Was my real introduction into competitive gaming and I was already following MLG's halo 2 for a while now. This game really made me want to improve and understand the importance of how to adapt to the problems of having a team and work with my teammates. As well as work on my own problems, practice time was scheduled incrementally. Positional play was another thing that was extremely important.
Now starcraft 2 was released and it was my first ever time playing starcraft. So using the stuff I learned from AOE and AOM my first game ever on it was to cc first and lost to lings, Lol. I picked terran since I thought it required the most skill and was very similar to my previous RTS experience. I was placed in platnium league. By this time I already had the mindset to improve and not think its the game's fault even tho back then we had ridculous maps. I was doing 1 base banshee every game into expansion since I didn't know any better. Reached Diamond then masters when it was released with this build. Until season 2 I started to do 1 rax expand and lost constantly but since I saw MvP hold off ridculous stuff I knew I could do it. The rest is history.
How does this compare to you guys? Did you guys learn stuff from previous games and is the reason why you and me are different in mindsets?
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On December 22 2012 13:02 corpuscle wrote:
I won't speak for other diamond leaguers, but for me, I've spent so much time focusing on mechanics and nothing else that I genuinely don't have a great sense of how to scout, position well, what army can beat what, when I should be on the map, etc. etc. You can very easily get to Diamond (or even low masters?) just by steamrolling your opponent with better macro and enough "gamesense" to not die to completely stupid bullshit, so true "tactical" play doesn't really even come into the picture.
For example, my brother came to visit yesterday, and we played like ten games... he beat me in nearly all of them, despite not having played for a really long time (granted, I'm rusty too), just because he's been playing since BW and has much better game sense. I simply don't run into opponents that actually know how to exploit my weaknesses, and thus don't learn how to really fix them. I don't play people who go "I'm going to check if his third is under-defended, and maybe I can pull him out of position with my mutas and do a big ling runby if he overcommits." I play people who say "I have a lot of zerglings, and I see good zergs run their zerglings into people's base and kill probes, so I'm gonna do that" even if there's 4 gates blocking, a bunch of sentries, and three cannons."
edit: I guess I didn't really make my main point: you don't just magically do things that good players do just by knowing that you're supposed to do it, otherwise we'd all be really fucking good. Asking why players that aren't as good as you don't make intelligent in-game decisions is just like me asking why people in Silver suck ass at macro. You know you're not supposed to get supply blocked, you know you're supposed to constantly build SCVs, you know you're supposed to keep your money low, so why the hell don't you do it, silver leaguer? The answer is obvious: they aren't accustomed enough to the game yet, so their time and mental energy is being used elsewhere. Starcraft is a really hard game, it takes a lot of practice to get to the point where you can really think about what you're doing.
You sound just like me. When you first start out, all people tell you to do is "FOKUS ON YER MEKANIKS"... but then when you focus mechanics and hit the brick wall called strategy... what do you do?
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On December 22 2012 14:14 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 13:02 corpuscle wrote:
I won't speak for other diamond leaguers, but for me, I've spent so much time focusing on mechanics and nothing else that I genuinely don't have a great sense of how to scout, position well, what army can beat what, when I should be on the map, etc. etc. You can very easily get to Diamond (or even low masters?) just by steamrolling your opponent with better macro and enough "gamesense" to not die to completely stupid bullshit, so true "tactical" play doesn't really even come into the picture.
For example, my brother came to visit yesterday, and we played like ten games... he beat me in nearly all of them, despite not having played for a really long time (granted, I'm rusty too), just because he's been playing since BW and has much better game sense. I simply don't run into opponents that actually know how to exploit my weaknesses, and thus don't learn how to really fix them. I don't play people who go "I'm going to check if his third is under-defended, and maybe I can pull him out of position with my mutas and do a big ling runby if he overcommits." I play people who say "I have a lot of zerglings, and I see good zergs run their zerglings into people's base and kill probes, so I'm gonna do that" even if there's 4 gates blocking, a bunch of sentries, and three cannons."
edit: I guess I didn't really make my main point: you don't just magically do things that good players do just by knowing that you're supposed to do it, otherwise we'd all be really fucking good. Asking why players that aren't as good as you don't make intelligent in-game decisions is just like me asking why people in Silver suck ass at macro. You know you're not supposed to get supply blocked, you know you're supposed to constantly build SCVs, you know you're supposed to keep your money low, so why the hell don't you do it, silver leaguer? The answer is obvious: they aren't accustomed enough to the game yet, so their time and mental energy is being used elsewhere. Starcraft is a really hard game, it takes a lot of practice to get to the point where you can really think about what you're doing. You sound just like me. When you first start out, all people tell you to do is "FOKUS ON YER MEKANIKS"... but then when you focus mechanics and hit the brick wall called strategy... what do you do?
Well, considering you apparently managed, why don't you tell us? 
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On December 22 2012 14:19 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 14:14 LgNKami wrote:On December 22 2012 13:02 corpuscle wrote:
I won't speak for other diamond leaguers, but for me, I've spent so much time focusing on mechanics and nothing else that I genuinely don't have a great sense of how to scout, position well, what army can beat what, when I should be on the map, etc. etc. You can very easily get to Diamond (or even low masters?) just by steamrolling your opponent with better macro and enough "gamesense" to not die to completely stupid bullshit, so true "tactical" play doesn't really even come into the picture.
For example, my brother came to visit yesterday, and we played like ten games... he beat me in nearly all of them, despite not having played for a really long time (granted, I'm rusty too), just because he's been playing since BW and has much better game sense. I simply don't run into opponents that actually know how to exploit my weaknesses, and thus don't learn how to really fix them. I don't play people who go "I'm going to check if his third is under-defended, and maybe I can pull him out of position with my mutas and do a big ling runby if he overcommits." I play people who say "I have a lot of zerglings, and I see good zergs run their zerglings into people's base and kill probes, so I'm gonna do that" even if there's 4 gates blocking, a bunch of sentries, and three cannons."
edit: I guess I didn't really make my main point: you don't just magically do things that good players do just by knowing that you're supposed to do it, otherwise we'd all be really fucking good. Asking why players that aren't as good as you don't make intelligent in-game decisions is just like me asking why people in Silver suck ass at macro. You know you're not supposed to get supply blocked, you know you're supposed to constantly build SCVs, you know you're supposed to keep your money low, so why the hell don't you do it, silver leaguer? The answer is obvious: they aren't accustomed enough to the game yet, so their time and mental energy is being used elsewhere. Starcraft is a really hard game, it takes a lot of practice to get to the point where you can really think about what you're doing. You sound just like me. When you first start out, all people tell you to do is "FOKUS ON YER MEKANIKS"... but then when you focus mechanics and hit the brick wall called strategy... what do you do? Well, considering you apparently managed, why don't you tell us?
Honestly, for me, it was about time + breaking down the game a bit. Like an instrument, you learn to play more slowly, putting it together bit by bit until you have the hand movements down and so ingrained that you can speed up and not miss a beat. I finally hit masters (and now nearly GM) by just working myself through my matchups.
What am I doing the first 6 minutes of the game? I would go and just play 6 minutes over and over again. Once I felt good at that, I added on 6 more minutes, and so it went.
Mechanics are great, but they work WITH strategy, with preparation, with scouting. Don't think about practicing "mechanics" (although eventually you should do that too), but think about the game in sections.
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On December 22 2012 14:19 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 14:14 LgNKami wrote:On December 22 2012 13:02 corpuscle wrote:
I won't speak for other diamond leaguers, but for me, I've spent so much time focusing on mechanics and nothing else that I genuinely don't have a great sense of how to scout, position well, what army can beat what, when I should be on the map, etc. etc. You can very easily get to Diamond (or even low masters?) just by steamrolling your opponent with better macro and enough "gamesense" to not die to completely stupid bullshit, so true "tactical" play doesn't really even come into the picture.
For example, my brother came to visit yesterday, and we played like ten games... he beat me in nearly all of them, despite not having played for a really long time (granted, I'm rusty too), just because he's been playing since BW and has much better game sense. I simply don't run into opponents that actually know how to exploit my weaknesses, and thus don't learn how to really fix them. I don't play people who go "I'm going to check if his third is under-defended, and maybe I can pull him out of position with my mutas and do a big ling runby if he overcommits." I play people who say "I have a lot of zerglings, and I see good zergs run their zerglings into people's base and kill probes, so I'm gonna do that" even if there's 4 gates blocking, a bunch of sentries, and three cannons."
edit: I guess I didn't really make my main point: you don't just magically do things that good players do just by knowing that you're supposed to do it, otherwise we'd all be really fucking good. Asking why players that aren't as good as you don't make intelligent in-game decisions is just like me asking why people in Silver suck ass at macro. You know you're not supposed to get supply blocked, you know you're supposed to constantly build SCVs, you know you're supposed to keep your money low, so why the hell don't you do it, silver leaguer? The answer is obvious: they aren't accustomed enough to the game yet, so their time and mental energy is being used elsewhere. Starcraft is a really hard game, it takes a lot of practice to get to the point where you can really think about what you're doing. You sound just like me. When you first start out, all people tell you to do is "FOKUS ON YER MEKANIKS"... but then when you focus mechanics and hit the brick wall called strategy... what do you do? Well, considering you apparently managed, why don't you tell us?
The only thing to do was to keep tanking me account to relearn parts of the game. It went in this order:
1. Get to Masters on pure mechanics (rank doesnt matter because as soon as you hit masters, you tank again) (NO MICRO!)
2. Get to Masters on pure strategy (same as above with rank) (Micro if needed)
3. Get to Masters on while focusing on scouting, strategy and macro (it becomes hard once you hit diamond while doing this for the first time.) (NO MICRO!)
4. Get to Masters (at this point, you will automatically be doing everything I noted above without even knowing it) (you are free to do whatever you want as long as your apm allows it)
Once you reach 4, you have no real reason to tank again unless you're a troll. Also, if you lose a game to a lower league player, don't be ashamed. If you lost, it was you're fault so just watch the replay and see what you did wrong.
PS: This is a long process so don't expect this to be a quick fix. You will be working on this for a good 2-3 months.
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Diamonds will have trouble keeping up their macro and BO's as it is, without having to juggle minimap awareness, positioning, micro, strategy, common sense. In other words, they're not quite as good as GM players. What's complex about that? o_O
Not to mention that a lot of people don't play to improve or don't want to make a conscious effort to do so.
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On December 22 2012 14:59 Saechiis wrote:
Diamonds will have trouble keeping up their macro and BO's as it is, without having to juggle minimap awareness, positioning, micro, strategy, common sense. In other words, they're not quite as good as GM players. What's complex about that? o_O
Not to mention that a lot of people don't play to improve or don't want to make a conscious effort to do so.
This is more geared towards diamonds who really want to hit masters. No shit their macro sucks and no sense of a solid BO and strategy. But what I am asking is why is it that they can't learn this like I did. I learned everything by myself, no one held my hand. How come they don't have the logical sense to work this out by themselves. This is not a question dealing with execution of APM.
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On December 22 2012 15:06 gfever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 14:59 Saechiis wrote:
Diamonds will have trouble keeping up their macro and BO's as it is, without having to juggle minimap awareness, positioning, micro, strategy, common sense. In other words, they're not quite as good as GM players. What's complex about that? o_O
Not to mention that a lot of people don't play to improve or don't want to make a conscious effort to do so. This is more geared towards diamonds who really want to hit masters. No shit their macro sucks and no sense of a solid BO and strategy. But what I am asking is why is it that they can't learn this like I did. I learned everything by myself, no one held my hand. How come they don't have the logical sense to work this out by themselves. This is not a question dealing with execution of APM.
If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Congrats, you're talented. Here's your fucking medal. I had to work hard to even get to diamond, then I kinda hit a plateau, now I'm trying to break out but it's hard as fuck.
Essentially, this is like Michael Phelps looking down at swimmers everywhere and going "Holy shit, why are these plebs so bad they can't even win the olympics?" Bit of an extreme example, but you get my point, it's easy to dismiss the road after you've walked it.
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On December 22 2012 15:06 gfever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 14:59 Saechiis wrote:
Diamonds will have trouble keeping up their macro and BO's as it is, without having to juggle minimap awareness, positioning, micro, strategy, common sense. In other words, they're not quite as good as GM players. What's complex about that? o_O
Not to mention that a lot of people don't play to improve or don't want to make a conscious effort to do so. This is more geared towards diamonds who really want to hit masters. No shit their macro sucks and no sense of a solid BO and strategy. But what I am asking is why is it that they can't learn this like I did. I learned everything by myself, no one held my hand. How come they don't have the logical sense to work this out by themselves. This is not a question dealing with execution of APM.
Because learning requires time? Thinking of ways to play better != playing better,
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i was thinking about answering your "question" about the mindset of lower league players, and i was intrigued when you brought up the topic of fun. then as i kept reading i realized that it was mostly a gloat blog."im better than most people, why does everyone suck?" it seemed like you were never that interested in the "Fun" aspect, but mostly wanted to give other people crap and gloat in your "as an ex gm" Majesty.
Maybe if you think about it you can answer your own question about why you cant have fun in starcraft anymore. But just in case you are having trouble ill give you a hint: your priorities are seriously fucked up. if you want to have fun you are approaching it in the wrong way.
(i think what i said is insightful, but also a tad too emotional. i seemed to have gotten defensive.)
edited for ^
edit 2: re ops edit.
i think the reason, for me at least, is mitigating circumstances in my life leading to a focus shift away from starcraft, ie school, depression. other factors too, like laziness, etc. i want to be good, but constant interruptions cause lack of focus. i also have a tendency to just knock of games quickly without thinking. the flawed thought process is:ive been away for a while, i just need to play a couple hundred games to get back into it. but it ends up inhibiting progress
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Personally, I think my main problem is holding multiprong harassment. I'm high diamond, have beaten a bunch of masters and a few GMs. Its just if a they decide to do mass drops everywhere, even with static, they still kill important tech and economy, and is 90% of the time a loss. So I guess, multitasking is a big issue for me.
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I think a lot of it is to do with how much Starcraft they watch. I remember once I decided to analyse an enormous amount of TvTs, around the time of the TSL4 qualifiers, and that alone really enhanced my knowledge of the matchup. I learnt a lot about army positioning and about timings, and I also learnt whether or not it was safe to attack into a siege line. So I think that's the problem, these players aren't analysing enough games, and instead just mass gaming.
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France12795 Posts
I guess it's because most of the people who gives them advices were already accustomed to RTS when they started sc2. The "macro till you get to master" and stuff like that. They didn't receive advices from people whom SC2 (is whom the right word btw?) was the first RTS they played with the intention to get better. Or they didn't play enough video games in the past. Or don't want to progress badly enough.
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I'm a crappy diamond player (scraped into masters last season, then dropped back).
On December 22 2012 12:49 gfever wrote:
People say its the lack of play time. For the majority of diamond players that would be true but while some not so much. I have friends who are diamond and play almost everyday and never get into masters.
I think what you're doing with play time is more important. How do you practice? Only ladder? Ladder + watch replays looking for specific things? Practice with partners doing the same builds? Practice builds vs AI, then ladder? How is your time spent, and what are you thinking about when you do it?
What about APM? I'll counter this question with, what about strategy? If your APM is low wouldn't you atleast have better strategy? I mean I see people with the dumbest strategies and just are so retarded.
No. Of course not. Diamond players are sloooooow. Being slow means you barely have time (or don't have time) to keep up macro and move your army around. Thinking takes even more time than that. Way more. If I start thinking too hard in game I'll stop doing everything else, and may as well just leave.
Their army position is terrible and their defense weak as hell. Some just land their 3rd with no army and hope they don't get attacked. People a move their army towards the enemy base and don't think about counter attacks? I mean wtf? Why don't diamond players think about this stuff if their apm is lower or higher. Why do people all rally their army in one place instead of spread them in two spots to cover both main and natural if they know some sort of drop or all in would occur? Instead you find ppl just get 10 scvs killed. Don't you think about a couple games you would think to think of a way to counter this? Why don't you scout a certain angle so you know where to position your army?
Probably because 19 times out of 20 it's utterly irrelevant. Maybe you can spot the adjustment you need to make after one lost game, or you play a lot more. Most diamond players probably think "oops" and move on.
I mean I could get into masters by just clicking on the hotkeys or just make only marines. Its definately not the question of your build, unless you do something greedy.
Not just making marines, you couldn't. Also, builds are pretty important - how do I tell if I'm being greedy? What builds can I get away with doing this against, and what can't I? What do I need to scout? There's just so many variations to be aware of.
Another thing is, some diamond players watch pro streams and GSL games but yet have no clue how to handle the army. I see diamond players run their entire army of infestors with their army attacking instead of pulling them away. If you see them die all the time why the fuck don't you change your hotkeys so you have infestors one key and army in another. I know you diamond players see the mistake there but are you stubborn to change your ways? Lazy? Or you don't care?
Why do you take a 4th base in the middle of the map and position your army in your natural and get ur 4th base killed? WTF!! I may seem like im venting steam here but this is just ridculous.
I play this custom game where you have a microer and a macroer and I was macroing for this diamond player and we are doubled the supply of the enemy in a TvT. This diamond player was so afraid of seige tanks even tho we have 3/3 vs 1/1 and doubled supply we could've crushed him multiple times. Why isn't it after so many games played you still can't look at an army and say, "Oh yea, I can definately crush that".
Enh. Well I don't do these things. :p
I know when I can win an engagement or not. Sometimes I'll lose the engagements I should win though, because I engage wrongly / mis-micro.
Edit: I am more of asking how come lower leaguers don't try to fix these problems even tho they have identified them instead of them not being able to execute it? If you keep forgeting to do something how come you don't fix it? Yet after a couple season its still a problem for you?
I think it's a mixture of reasons.
1. e.g. My upgrades are bad. I know I should make a special effort to check them more often, and keep them in mind. Doing so on ladder means I'll probably lose several games due to not keeping my army in the right place / not paying attention to whatever. I should either do it in several games vs the AI, or not care at all about the losses. Either solution takes time from what I actually enjoy (winning on ladder) - it's difficult to stop laddering. I guess this is just laziness / lack of discipline - preferring the possibility of pleasure now, over the very slightly increased possibility of pleasure later. Going back to my first response: it doesn't matter how much time you spend if you're spending it wrongly.
2. Some things I don't know how to fix - mainly builds / scouting. I 1 rax expand most games, and lose every time I encounter a proxy robo build. I just don't know how to change my play against one-basing protoss. How do I tell if it's a robo, stargate, dts, dts / robo? I don't know. Should I withdraw into my main? Should I make turrets? How many bunkers? Do I keep half my army in my main? Is it a build order loss???
It becomes easier to just not fix it - auto-lose half the proxy builds and keep stomping most macro games.
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This blog is basically you just stroking your e-peen. Seriously the subject is "Why Cant THEY be as good as ME." Sorry man, we cant all be uber gosu like you lol.
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On December 22 2012 13:09 gfever wrote:
That still doesn't answer the question about the mere amount of time playing starcraft. Its like also saying that if you practice the piano a lot you should be good at it after a while. I got players who been playing since release and still silver and I mean constant playing, not on and off. There is something going on in their minds that I can't explain.
To learn to play the piano you need very specific practice. Although ladder play can be used for that kind of practice most people just focus on 'beating their opponent'. Playing the piano is relatively straight forward and easy to practice alone, spot and correct mistakes.
Give me a challenge with a metric and I'll spend as much time as it takes until I'm able to meet it (yabot was great for this when I first started, probably helped me get to plat). However, when all I now have to go on is why did I win/lose the last game it's a lot harder to improve. Also, going back to the piano analogy since each (ladder) game can be so much different it would be like practicing a different song each time I play an instrument - and possibly different instruments.
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If your APM is low wouldn't you atleast have better strategy?
For Low-Level players, there is no time to think about this stuff. The constant mantra of probes and pylons, pay attention to the minimap, maybe micro your units, is hard when you are battling the computer to get what you want done. When I was in Bronze, I remember, a large problem for me was utilising control groups, hotkeys and boxing units accurately. If you want to get an idea of what this feels like, try switching mouse acceleration on/off (depending on what you have), changing mouse sensitivity and keyboard hotkeys.
I see people with the dumbest strategies and just are so retarded. Their army position is terrible and their defense weak as hell. Some just land their 3rd with no army and hope they don't get attacked. People a move their army towards the enemy base and don't think about counter attacks? I mean wtf?
I believe that this is due to people thinking in general too much about strategy in 'builds' and 'unit counters'. When you watch GSL or something, it is often hard to appreciate the reasoning behind the positioning of units, feigning of pressure, etc, when what's being talked about is how fast the build up to hive is, what an interesting build is being used, whats happening in a battle, etc. This means that when low-level players take replays/vods to learn from (far to few actually study a replay/replay pack in depth), the player looks for builds and benchmarks, which is very good for improving macro, not so good for improving insight into the game.
Why do people all rally their army in one place instead of spread them in two spots to cover both main and natural if they know some sort of drop or all in would occur?
I know you diamond players see the mistake there but are you stubborn to change your ways? Lazy? Or you don't care?
Ummm, I think I'll go with lazy on this one. Most often, these are just habits that players can't be bothered changing. They definitely should, but I think I'll blame this on an overemphasis on macroing well (which is still very important) over a more holistic approach to improvement. The message that macroing better will get you into higher leagues is misrepresented/interpreted. What I think it means is that the greatest difference between players of different calibres is their macro (which I believe to be true), and therefore improvement in macro should be prioritised. It does not mean that other aspects of play should be ignored for improvement.
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I am a high master player and experience weird stuff with m friends, most of them don´t even want to improve even though i offer my help to get them to master.
But i ask myself why do these people play this game when they don´t want to challenge or improve yourself, without the Esport aspect and the challenge you get from it, it´s pretty frustrating and it makes no sense for me how people can ejoy it without knowing anything about the game (which is sadly true in platinum to gold level).
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I'm a previous Diamond, now Masters level player
What really made me stuck in Diamond as a Terran was the fact that I sometimes just didn't know what to look for in a replay when looking at my own play (aka I didn't know what I was doing wrong)
when I played, I have pretty decent mechanics, and I pride myself on my micro, especially within the first 10 minutes
However, when it got to it, I'd just get rolled over late game and I would watch the replay and be like WELL I WON THE FIRST 10 MINUTES, but absolutely got demolished in the last 10. And I'd have no idea why.
So my friend (high master/GM lvl) watched my replay, and basically told me a few things like
1) macro better during battles
2) tank production in TvT and TvZ is spotty until I get a 3rd base, which means when I do get that 3rd, it's late cause I always get it denied
3) Whenever I sutter-stepped or engaged an army, my guys were always not in an arc
Even though I could see these problems, I never thought it was the biggest problem and never tried to fix it. So basically I fixed them and now I'm Master league
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Thanks for the responses guys, but most of you are answering what diamond players are obviously doing wrong but not answering the question about why they don't want to change or fix those problems. If they can somehow learn how to fix it themselves then they can take each problem and find their way to improve it. Its like the give a man a fish feed them a day, but teach them how to fish feed them for a lifetime ideology. It can be a cultural thing, lack of confidence, etc.
On December 22 2012 22:43 NotoriousBig wrote:
I am a high master player and experience weird stuff with m friends, most of them don´t even want to improve even though i offer my help to get them to master.
But i ask myself why do these people play this game when they don´t want to challenge or improve yourself, without the Esport aspect and the challenge you get from it, it´s pretty frustrating and it makes no sense for me how people can ejoy it without knowing anything about the game (which is sadly true in platinum to gold level).
Yeah I get this a lot. Its like they know they are doing dumb things but their tone and actions shows they just don't care. While diamonds who really want to get into masters is something i can't figure out. If they really wanted to improve and they actually spent time to seek help(a coach), do they really care?
On December 22 2012 21:57 netherh wrote:
2. Some things I don't know how to fix - mainly builds / scouting. I 1 rax expand most games, and lose every time I encounter a proxy robo build. I just don't know how to change my play against one-basing protoss. How do I tell if it's a robo, stargate, dts, dts / robo? I don't know. Should I withdraw into my main? Should I make turrets? How many bunkers? Do I keep half my army in my main? Is it a build order loss???
It becomes easier to just not fix it - auto-lose half the proxy builds and keep stomping most macro games.
How come you don't spend time eliminating these doubts? Like practice with 3 bunkers whenever you fight this build. Learn when Dts should be on the map so you don't make too early of turrets. Why not try to find a build that stops all possible one base protoss builds? I'm assuming you are doing a macro build. Doesn't this stuff cross your mind or you just don't have the patience to experiment?
On December 22 2012 22:24 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 13:09 gfever wrote:
That still doesn't answer the question about the mere amount of time playing starcraft. Its like also saying that if you practice the piano a lot you should be good at it after a while. I got players who been playing since release and still silver and I mean constant playing, not on and off. There is something going on in their minds that I can't explain. To learn to play the piano you need very specific practice. Although ladder play can be used for that kind of practice most people just focus on 'beating their opponent'. Playing the piano is relatively straight forward and easy to practice alone, spot and correct mistakes. Give me a challenge with a metric and I'll spend as much time as it takes until I'm able to meet it (yabot was great for this when I first started, probably helped me get to plat). However, when all I now have to go on is why did I win/lose the last game it's a lot harder to improve. Also, going back to the piano analogy since each (ladder) game can be so much different it would be like practicing a different song each time I play an instrument - and possibly different instruments.
Difference with starcraft and piano is that starcraft you get to interact with other players. So you can see a difference between you and your opponent. Thats like saying you can watch your teacher play the piano but the teacher doesn't actually say anything to you. So its based on how well you can take that and adapt to your problem solving skills and mimic your teacher.
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On December 23 2012 04:18 gfever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 21:57 netherh wrote:
2. Some things I don't know how to fix - mainly builds / scouting. I 1 rax expand most games, and lose every time I encounter a proxy robo build. I just don't know how to change my play against one-basing protoss. How do I tell if it's a robo, stargate, dts, dts / robo? I don't know. Should I withdraw into my main? Should I make turrets? How many bunkers? Do I keep half my army in my main? Is it a build order loss???
It becomes easier to just not fix it - auto-lose half the proxy builds and keep stomping most macro games.
How come you don't spend time eliminating these doubts? Like practice with 3 bunkers whenever you fight this build. Learn when Dts should be on the map so you don't make too early of turrets. Why not try to find a build that stops all possible one base protoss builds? I'm assuming you are doing a macro build. Doesn't this stuff cross your mind or you just don't have the patience to experiment?
Partly laziness, mainly unwillingness to attempt finding a practice partner.
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On December 23 2012 04:18 gfever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 22:24 y0su wrote:On December 22 2012 13:09 gfever wrote:
That still doesn't answer the question about the mere amount of time playing starcraft. Its like also saying that if you practice the piano a lot you should be good at it after a while. I got players who been playing since release and still silver and I mean constant playing, not on and off. There is something going on in their minds that I can't explain. To learn to play the piano you need very specific practice. Although ladder play can be used for that kind of practice most people just focus on 'beating their opponent'. Playing the piano is relatively straight forward and easy to practice alone, spot and correct mistakes. Give me a challenge with a metric and I'll spend as much time as it takes until I'm able to meet it (yabot was great for this when I first started, probably helped me get to plat). However, when all I now have to go on is why did I win/lose the last game it's a lot harder to improve. Also, going back to the piano analogy since each (ladder) game can be so much different it would be like practicing a different song each time I play an instrument - and possibly different instruments. Difference with starcraft and piano is that starcraft you get to interact with other players. So you can see a difference between you and your opponent. Thats like saying you can watch your teacher play the piano but the teacher doesn't actually say anything to you. So its based on how well you can take that and adapt to your problem solving skills and mimic your teacher.
Maybe this is part of it, but I don't really follow what you mean by the last sentence.
My main point was that most players (of all leagues) focus on simply winning. As long as they win 50% of the time they feel they are doing well. They often don't see what they could/should really improve (beyond the simple stuff like energy on queen/nexus, supply blocks, scouting/reaction or army position/micro).
Also, players that have played many games are going to have some trouble changing their mechanics to improve (or aren't willing to take the ladder losses while they relearn something).
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France12795 Posts
On December 23 2012 05:12 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 04:18 gfever wrote:On December 22 2012 21:57 netherh wrote:
2. Some things I don't know how to fix - mainly builds / scouting. I 1 rax expand most games, and lose every time I encounter a proxy robo build. I just don't know how to change my play against one-basing protoss. How do I tell if it's a robo, stargate, dts, dts / robo? I don't know. Should I withdraw into my main? Should I make turrets? How many bunkers? Do I keep half my army in my main? Is it a build order loss???
It becomes easier to just not fix it - auto-lose half the proxy builds and keep stomping most macro games.
How come you don't spend time eliminating these doubts? Like practice with 3 bunkers whenever you fight this build. Learn when Dts should be on the map so you don't make too early of turrets. Why not try to find a build that stops all possible one base protoss builds? I'm assuming you are doing a macro build. Doesn't this stuff cross your mind or you just don't have the patience to experiment? Partly laziness, mainly unwillingness to attempt finding a practice partner.
Why would you even need a practice partner before GM/pro level?
o;o
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On December 23 2012 05:51 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 05:12 netherh wrote:On December 23 2012 04:18 gfever wrote:On December 22 2012 21:57 netherh wrote:
2. Some things I don't know how to fix - mainly builds / scouting. I 1 rax expand most games, and lose every time I encounter a proxy robo build. I just don't know how to change my play against one-basing protoss. How do I tell if it's a robo, stargate, dts, dts / robo? I don't know. Should I withdraw into my main? Should I make turrets? How many bunkers? Do I keep half my army in my main? Is it a build order loss???
It becomes easier to just not fix it - auto-lose half the proxy builds and keep stomping most macro games.
How come you don't spend time eliminating these doubts? Like practice with 3 bunkers whenever you fight this build. Learn when Dts should be on the map so you don't make too early of turrets. Why not try to find a build that stops all possible one base protoss builds? I'm assuming you are doing a macro build. Doesn't this stuff cross your mind or you just don't have the patience to experiment? Partly laziness, mainly unwillingness to attempt finding a practice partner. Why would you even need a practice partner before GM/pro level? o;o
Because I'd be able to do what gfever says, and try different things vs one build.
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On December 23 2012 06:19 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 05:51 Poopi wrote:On December 23 2012 05:12 netherh wrote:On December 23 2012 04:18 gfever wrote:On December 22 2012 21:57 netherh wrote:
2. Some things I don't know how to fix - mainly builds / scouting. I 1 rax expand most games, and lose every time I encounter a proxy robo build. I just don't know how to change my play against one-basing protoss. How do I tell if it's a robo, stargate, dts, dts / robo? I don't know. Should I withdraw into my main? Should I make turrets? How many bunkers? Do I keep half my army in my main? Is it a build order loss???
It becomes easier to just not fix it - auto-lose half the proxy builds and keep stomping most macro games.
How come you don't spend time eliminating these doubts? Like practice with 3 bunkers whenever you fight this build. Learn when Dts should be on the map so you don't make too early of turrets. Why not try to find a build that stops all possible one base protoss builds? I'm assuming you are doing a macro build. Doesn't this stuff cross your mind or you just don't have the patience to experiment? Partly laziness, mainly unwillingness to attempt finding a practice partner. Why would you even need a practice partner before GM/pro level? o;o Because I'd be able to do what gfever says, and try different things vs one build.
Technically I never really had a practice partner till I was already gm. I basically did trail and error till I found a build that could adapt to anything my opponent would throw at me and focus most of my strategy around macro play. I rarely ever did 1 base builds after I started to 1 rax expand well.
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On December 23 2012 06:54 gfever wrote:
Technically I never really had a practice partner till I was already gm. I basically did trail and error till I found a build that could adapt to anything my opponent would throw at me and focus most of my strategy around macro play. I rarely ever did 1 base builds after I started to 1 rax expand well.
Hmm. Well then I guess it goes back to laziness / focus on winning games instead of improving.
I find remembering to actually focus on something while playing is really, really hard. If I play in single player, I can remember what I'm focussing on (e.g. perfect upgrades), but in the ladder, it all goes to shit because I'm trying to do everything else as well, and am unwilling to lose because of making myself think, and therefore play slower.
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The answer is tunnel vision. Diamond players have tunnel vision - If they attack they get focused on that, if they expand they get focused on that... the difference to a decent master is escaping the tunnel vision... being relaxed enough to expand AND attack AND protect expansions.
As in:
They don't improve because they can't yet expand their mind to consider multiple things at one time.
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France12795 Posts
On December 23 2012 07:53 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 06:54 gfever wrote:
Technically I never really had a practice partner till I was already gm. I basically did trail and error till I found a build that could adapt to anything my opponent would throw at me and focus most of my strategy around macro play. I rarely ever did 1 base builds after I started to 1 rax expand well. Hmm. Well then I guess it goes back to laziness / focus on winning games instead of improving. I find remembering to actually focus on something while playing is really, really hard. If I play in single player, I can remember what I'm focussing on (e.g. perfect upgrades), but in the ladder, it all goes to shit because I'm trying to do everything else as well, and am unwilling to lose because of making myself think, and therefore play slower.
Focus on winning games is what makes you learn faster.
1 allin / match-up and allin till you are master. Then learn the game. Better to learn how to play properly against the best possible opposition than against weak opponents.
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Hi gfever, first off, thanks a lot for your mechanics guide, it's been a great help to me. I think the answers to your question are actually quite simple:
1. Most people aren't very intelligent (very blunt I know, but I do believe it's that simple).
2. Most people aren't very competitive (therefore they don't make a conscious effort to improve, which means they can play 1k+ ladder games without getting better).
3. Most people are complacent.
So for all those diamonds or lower you see with lots of games it's likely that 1. and/or 2. and 3. apply.
Also, a lot of people have trouble applying the work mentality needed on SC2, they think "whatever it's just a game" or "it's a game, i want to relax and have fun".
Keep in mind that starcraft is much harder than most other games nowadays where you just mindlessly grind until you
eventually reach a high level/the end game. Meticulously working on different aspects of their play through deliberate practice is a foreign concept to more people than you might think.
I see that you have a stream, I love to watch good terrans (read: better than me), so I'll definitely be tuning in 
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On December 23 2012 09:17 Harrad wrote:Hi gfever, first off, thanks a lot for your mechanics guide, it's been a great help to me. I think the answers to your question are actually quite simple: 1. Most people aren't very intelligent (very blunt I know, but I do believe it's that simple). 2. Most people aren't very competitive (therefore they don't make a conscious effort to improve, which means they can play 1k+ ladder games without getting better). 3. Most people are complacent. So for all those diamonds or lower you see with lots of games it's likely that 1. and/or 2. and 3. apply. Also, a lot of people have trouble applying the work mentality needed on SC2, they think "whatever it's just a game" or "it's a game, i want to relax and have fun". Keep in mind that starcraft is much harder than most other games nowadays where you just mindlessly grind until you eventually reach a high level/the end game. Meticulously working on different aspects of their play through deliberate practice is a foreign concept to more people than you might think. I see that you have a stream, I love to watch good terrans (read: better than me), so I'll definitely be tuning in
How would you answer about players who seek help and are trying hard and have the time to do so? Yet they can't break master? That I don't understand. If their main focus is starcraft, wouldn't those type of diamonders able to eventually learn to learn...
thanks for reading my guide, tho i stream occasionally, im sort of waiting for hots before I mass game again.
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Well, apparently they don't. I'd consider being able to improve at SC2 a skill in itself. I would say you, for example, are at least somewhat talented at RTS. Sometimes trying hard just doesn't cut if you a) don't have some degree of talent and b) don't practice efficiently/optimally.
So yeah, most people just aren't talented at RTS and just don't have the tools they need in order to improve..
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EPT
