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Netherlands45349 Posts
On December 15 2012 19:21 JBright wrote:
The main problem I see with SC2 is that it doesn't have a legit competitor to keep Blizzard honest. They have dominated the RTS scene in terms of competitive gaming so there is no alternative for players to turn to if they're not satisfied. Even if Dota 2 and LoL cater to different types of players, they are still in the same genre and can pick things up and try to one up each other. Riot finally added drop in spectating (one of the best features of Dota 2) and Valve added in Halloween textures to their map a month ago (something LoL had for 2 years).
Dota 1 had Christmas textures before LoL.
e.g santa hat on CM/Pudge.
Oh and BW is simply so much better that I (subconciously) compare the two everytime I watch SC2 and see what an (imo) inferior game it is to BW.
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sc2 as a game does not have enough intensity to make it interesting to watch, I find it so boring when 90% of games is 2 army balls dancing around before they clash and the game ends there. It's just not fun watching balls jiggle.
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People watch what they play. People who say sc2 isnt interesting to watch probably are not playing it either.
SC can never compete with casual-friendly games like LoL and WoW before it because those games were designed from the ground up to hook in as many players as possible. They are not hard to play, you get meaningless points for meaningless activities and most of all you can play with your friends. These games are designed so that the average noob who wants to feel elite and pro can get the illusion of being good, which is much harder to achieve in starcraft.
I don't think starcraft should even be trying to compete with the casual gaming scene, because it's just not a casual game. A 1v1 game can never be truly casual-friendly, regardless of what precious metal you name the leagues after or how many xp points you get for killing a zergling. You don't see professional chess pulling in the same numbers as professional football. Why? Because to play football you need a bunch of friends and a ball and to play chess you need a chess set and another person who happens to also have spent years learning the game.
Instead of aiming for high viewer numbers i think starcraft can aim for a higher ideal; just to show really amazing games. SCBW imo was raised to the level of an art form and though SC2 is not there yet i think in a few years it can be.
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I think the main problem with SC2 is that it requires to little skill in a mechanical sense. Sure SC2 is still an extremely difficult game purely strategically but that is not enough to make it an interesting game in my opinion. It just isn't fun to watch or play a game where one player just loses if he gets supply blocked for 10 sec and therefore has less unit in a arbitrary battle. Sure there are times in SC2 where micro actually makes a significant difference (like baneling-marine micro) but these occur wayyy to seldom. You need to be able to feel the skill when you watch or play a game. In football all you do is kick a ball yet it can be so difficult to play, both strategically (team strategy etc) but also in the way you handle the ball.
If that example isn't good enough think about it like this. What is the major difference between Counter strike and Call of duty/ Halo? Two high level teams in both games will probably own a lesser team purely because they can outplay the other team to such a high degree strategically. However the amount of difference you can do as a single player in a game such as counter strike is just so much higher then in a game such as Call of duty. When you sit down and play Call of duty you can get in to it almost immediately and you might take down a pro if you are lucky. When you sit down and play Counter strike and you meet a better player then you, I don't know how to put this gently but you will get crushed. There is almost no way in hell that you will kill him even once if you are not extremely lucky.
It is the same if you compare Starcraft 2 and Broodwar and even though I have not played Broodwar much I know that a better player in Broodwar is going to crush a lesser player. In Starcraft 2 this might also be the case if you put a bronze player against a master player but not if you put a mid/high master player against a GM player or pro player. Why? Because in Starcraft 2 (I was mid master protoss when I played if that is relevant) I can execute the same storms a high level pro(This is not the case in Broodwar). In Starcraft 2 when I watch a game between high level players and i see their armies moving out I know that if I would have controlled that army it would have looked exactly the same(This is not the case in Broodwar). In Starcraft 2 even how well I blink micro against marauders I will almost always lose and so will the pro. This makes it so that me being able to take a game of a lesser pro in Starcraft 2 even though slim, might happen.
I don't think I need to type out more examples. But my point is it should not be this way, but it is and that is why you see so many people write "Starcraft 2 is a boring/dull/...... game" nowadays. The game should be fucking hard and not balanced for casuals, wanna know why? When I got Warcraft 3 when I was like 10 or something did I give a shit about the actual game? No! What I cared about (and everyone else who was "casual" like me) was TD maps(Wintermaul was awesome!) and Hero maps such as the early versions of games which laid the foundation for DOTA. Blizzard however has fucked over the competitive scene (by trying to cater to the casual community in which the majority of players are not even interested in playing the actual game) and the casual scene when the whole custom made map system or battle.net in general is fucking terrible. (I can seriously find better custom maps in Wc3 today then what I can in SC2).
And something to end with: SC2 feels like it is a game made for being a competitive e-sport, when it should in fact be a game being made for? You guessed it for being fun. This it what makes SC2 such a fail game. It is not good (by my definition!) competitive since it is not fun to watch or play, unless missing 1 forcefield means auto gg, or getting trapped by 1 fungal means auto gg etc, in which case god please kill me.
This is just my 2 cents so feel free to disagree!
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eEsports is dumb because everyone is like EEESSSSPPOORRRTTTSSS when they should just be playing the god damn game and enjoying it for what it is (and/or dropping that game if the game sucks). Rarely did I see posts during the BW era where someone was like "WE NEED TO EXPAND ESPORTSSS". It was just a really nice tight little community that relished what little of a scene we had relative to the ever so popular Korean scene.
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On December 15 2012 08:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
The problem with SC2 is that it is not an interesting game.
Totally flawed statement.
I would say maybe its different to other competitive games in the essence that you can't just jump in to a game and run around and make headshots on the first game. That's why deters many non-intellectuals from playing it.
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The problem with Sc2 is the toxic community and all the drama. Small disagreements and problems get blown out of proportion. Some people even enjoy it and try to create more of it. I'm amazed that Totalbiscuit and Incontrol haven't left this community.
All the "SC2 vs LoL" is also silly. Its like comparing(in my opinion) chess with football. League is more casual while SC2 is not. Even though some hardcore BW elitists say SC2 is easy, for the average person, it's really hard.
Blizzard could've done things better. They are hungry for control and for a really long time have ignored the amazing community. Maps, mods, game/bnet design - only now has Blizzard started listening to its community and be active.
Starcraft's esport scene is just now starting to develop further, with IPL/MLG/DH starting to work together. Hopefully there will be a international governing body soon.
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On December 15 2012 23:46 Enders116 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
The problem with SC2 is that it is not an interesting game. Totally flawed statement. I would say maybe its different to other competitive games in the essence that you can't just jump in to a game and run around and make headshots on the first game. That's why deters many non-intellectuals from playing it.
How is it a flawed statement? It really isn't interesting to watch. The games are boring - always starting off the same slow boring way and usually ending with an anticlimactic fight, there are hardly any 'HOLY SHIT!' moments like in LoL or CS. This has already been mentioned numerous times.
I also miss the days of the CS teams screaming and yelling at CPL after pulling off an amazing shot or winning an important match, you don't see this in a game like Starcraft II. There's hardly any emotion that comes out from most of the Starcraft II pros.
How is Starcraft II different in that sense? If you think you can jump into CSGO and make headshots or LoL and get a kill than you're seriously delusional.
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On December 16 2012 06:50 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:46 Enders116 wrote:On December 15 2012 08:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
The problem with SC2 is that it is not an interesting game. Totally flawed statement. I would say maybe its different to other competitive games in the essence that you can't just jump in to a game and run around and make headshots on the first game. That's why deters many non-intellectuals from playing it. How is it a flawed statement? It really isn't interesting to watch. The games are boring - always starting off the same slow boring way and usually ending with an anticlimactic fight, there are hardly any 'HOLY SHIT!' moments like in LoL or CS. This has already been mentioned numerous times. I also miss the days of the CS teams screaming and yelling at CPL after pulling off an amazing shot or winning an important match, you don't see this in a game like Starcraft II. There's hardly any emotion that comes out from most of the Starcraft II pros. How is Starcraft II different in that sense? If you think you can jump into CSGO and make headshots or LoL and get a kill than you're seriously delusional.
I agree. SC2 isn't hype at all. The only live event I've been to was MLG Anaheim. LoL was more hype than sc2 and the fighting game section was also very loud for their size. The most hype sc2 got the entire weekend was when the kespa players were on stage, and not because of the gameplay, but because Leta did a back flip.
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I mean, let's face it, even if you weren't that big in BW and only remotely knew the scene, you still knew a lot of player names and what kind of achievements they generally got.
In Sc2 you just have a bunch of names with no story, no real achievements or trophies that are like "Yeah...that MEANS something", no innovative strategies where people are like "Man...X really changed how this matchup works completely", or at least to the revolutionary extent that players like iloveoov, Flash, Bisu, Savior, etc. etc. etc. had on the game.
There's just nothing interesting happening in SC2, and it's just stale that way. >.>
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Baa?21242 Posts
there's nothing wrong with ESPORTS SC2 just isn't ESPORTS enough to meet up with the demands of the ESPORTS consuming audience today
ESPORTS
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There is nothing really "wrong" with the SC2 esports scene. The game is doing fine, we just compare it to the two most successful esports of all time (BW and LoL). It can't much up with either of those games because its not as interesting or complex as Brood War, yet it can't attract the casual fans and huge playerbase that League of Legends has.
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On December 16 2012 08:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
there's nothing wrong with ESPORTS SC2 just isn't ESPORTS enough to meet up with the demands of the ESPORTS consuming audience today
ESPORTS
We need to inject more ESPORTS into the scene. With a syringe. Filled with...ESPORTS.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On December 15 2012 19:38 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 19:21 JBright wrote:
The main problem I see with SC2 is that it doesn't have a legit competitor to keep Blizzard honest. They have dominated the RTS scene in terms of competitive gaming so there is no alternative for players to turn to if they're not satisfied. Even if Dota 2 and LoL cater to different types of players, they are still in the same genre and can pick things up and try to one up each other. Riot finally added drop in spectating (one of the best features of Dota 2) and Valve added in Halloween textures to their map a month ago (something LoL had for 2 years). Dota 1 had Christmas textures before LoL. e.g santa hat on CM/Pudge. Oh and BW is simply so much better that I (subconciously) compare the two everytime I watch SC2 and see what an (imo) inferior game it is to BW.
Didn't the Christmas stuff come out in 6.73, which was released last year? But you're right that there are a lot of different things that can be seen in DotA since people can on different maps.
Also, DotA is Icefrog's project while Dota 2 is a Valve product. Even if there was Christmas textures in DotA, it isn't guaranteed for Dota 2 because they are handled by different people. Icefrog works on Dota 2 but he is not the man in charge or the one responsible for the graphics. Valve still needs other people to implement the Halloween textures.
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On December 16 2012 07:49 gurrpp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 06:50 skyR wrote:On December 15 2012 23:46 Enders116 wrote:On December 15 2012 08:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
The problem with SC2 is that it is not an interesting game. Totally flawed statement. I would say maybe its different to other competitive games in the essence that you can't just jump in to a game and run around and make headshots on the first game. That's why deters many non-intellectuals from playing it. How is it a flawed statement? It really isn't interesting to watch. The games are boring - always starting off the same slow boring way and usually ending with an anticlimactic fight, there are hardly any 'HOLY SHIT!' moments like in LoL or CS. This has already been mentioned numerous times. I also miss the days of the CS teams screaming and yelling at CPL after pulling off an amazing shot or winning an important match, you don't see this in a game like Starcraft II. There's hardly any emotion that comes out from most of the Starcraft II pros. How is Starcraft II different in that sense? If you think you can jump into CSGO and make headshots or LoL and get a kill than you're seriously delusional. I agree. SC2 isn't hype at all. The only live event I've been to was MLG Anaheim. LoL was more hype than sc2 and the fighting game section was also very loud for their size. The most hype sc2 got the entire weekend was when the kespa players were on stage, and not because of the gameplay, but because Leta did a back flip.
Yup I agree as well. BW had a definite "wow" factor... I would be in disbelief when watching pros pull unbelievable maneuvers, like Boxer locking down 10+ carriers with his ghosts, or watching someone micro a reaver drop and their army at the same time. Dota I don't even play but it has those moments as well where a player becomes a hero through a maneuver that seems superhuman and divinely inspired. I've been watching SC2 since it began and playing sporadically, but it just lacks these "wow" moments. I can't articulate why, but I suspect that the factors people consistently complain about: blob armies and anti-micro abilities such as forcefield, are major contributors.
To me, all the desperate hyping of "esports" just seems like an attempt to mask that SC2 is lackluster and hasn't lived up to its namesake. It's too bad they didn't go the Dota 2 route... keeping the game in tact but updating the graphics and interface.
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On December 15 2012 09:35 fabiano wrote:
I see it this way:
1. SC2 is trying too hard, lots of forced gimmickery.
2. Blizzard helped to shut down BW in Korea, got bad reputation there.
3. SC2 is an expensive game, both financially and PC requirements.
4. No LAN, incomplete features, only promises.
5. Excessive events, no central organization like BW had with KeSPA.
6. In BW watching high level play (be it a pro game or a TL stream) used to be a treat, in SC2 you don't give 2 shits if a high level player is streaming rightnow because you can watch any high level player at any given time.
7. Dota and LoL are free to play and offer much better user's interfaces and features.
8. The SC2 team is lead by someone who clearly misses what made BW great.
Well said.
On a personal note, SC2 gameplay is still entertaining enough, but it's just not exciting. Once the scene starts dropping some superfluous teams, tournaments, and players, the interest in the scene will rise per event and game. There's too many major tournaments, so many that progamers often opt out these so-called "premier" events. There's not enough time.
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Also, yes the one of the earlier respondents: anti-micro spells are fucking up the gameplay AND the quality of viewership. The game has much more potential than what we are seeing. It's just problematic that blizzard doesn't seem to have many good ideas and in HotS seems to be recycling ideas from brood war.
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It's simply impossible to have that many tournaments and keep people entertained.
LOL gets the viewship that it gets simply because it has that many people playing it.
Some people compare SC2 to BW and say SC2 has not been able to replicate the popularity bw had,
but that is because bw had only two major tournaments, MSL and OSL. OSL was like the world cup
the olympics. the fan girls weren't there because the games demonstrated high level skill. they were there
for the players and the atmosphere. bw players are like basketball players. kobe, lebron, wade, etc.
sc2 players seem like baseball players. you know they are good and they entertain you, but they might be gone
next year due to injury and winning the world series doesn't seem as important as winning an nba championship
(unless you're cubs).
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IMO, there's not enough skill, nor enough fun.
BW was clunkier, so APM and multi-tasking had a high value. Whoever could micro and macro at the same time, and do a better job of it, was the person who was going to win in the large majority of cases. It was harder to play perfect, and that helped create GG's.
SC2, both micro and macro have been dumbed down. You can actually be punished for microing even just a little too much. The hotkey changes make controlling even a huge army very easy; which I enjoy, but it still reduces the skill required to multitask.
The game has evolved faster as well. In the beginning days of SC1, there were no replays. Ingenuity was the highest skill. New BO? New micro mechanic? Enjoy the wins. Nowadays, everyone and their mother has seen high level games ad naseum, with high level analysis to boot. Experimenting in this day and age will usually result in a loss, and if you somehow stumble upon a great new strategy, everyone else is going to be doing it the next day.
This is a fundamental issue in almost every game. There is usually a "correct" play; a play that is unexploitable, or nearly so. Deviation from this optimal strategy will usually result in a loss when facing the optimal strategy.
I won't get into the fun aspect because this post is long winded enough, but I prefer more micro based units than 1a units.
Also, balance issues; very frustrating for players.
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Its not fun enough because the game isn't challenging enough to play.
I didn't get to masters by allining every game or outmicroing my opponents. I just sorta built more units and killed him with my bigger army. Once you get past that stage the game becomes build order rock paper scissors into losing the game because your race sucks in the late game.
My beef is you can't do the fun stuff that was fun in BW. Like Reaver/Tank drops or executing the korean eraser. Or moving shot micro, or really anything that was mechanically demanding but rewarded skill. Theres nothing like that in SC2, the closest thing is marine vs baneling splitting and thats not actually fun because if you fuck up you lose. Its also stupid how every time I found something fun like mass sniping infestor broodlord or constant BFH runbys Blizzard dropped the nerf hammer and removed fun in the name of balance. Even though it wasn't inherently imbalanced and the metagame wasn't allowed to catch up.
Its even worse knowing that blizzard made the hellion into a roach in HotS instead of the awesome hit and run burst damage unit it was.
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