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Feel like writing a response to this article by Carmac of IEM. He writes about the problem of "oversaturation." I think everything he says is good and I agree. I just feel like responding the fact that IEM is perpetuating the same exact problem he outlines in his article.
Here are some quotes:
There are seven CEOs and each one wants to say his event is the ultimate.
Leagues feel insecure and do what they can to bring in as many player celebrities as possible. They invite big names, backdoor them into their competitions and create systems where they are shown in as many games as possible.
Korean players (somehow not always ones that have sponsors) show up to major events by the dozen, take all the prize money and go back to Korea. Money’s drained out of local ecosystems by outsiders. Money that needs to stay in the ecosystem to provide a living for local pros and semi pros, ones upcoming players can learn from to get better.
So basically, based on my understanding, Carmac argues a few major points:
(1) too much dick-waving amongst the "big leagues," with each one trying to be better than the others
(2) top-heavy prize distributions and a not entirely open method of qualification mean that the same names are flooding the viewing space, creating viewer fatigue
(3) there are simply too many tournaments and events, creating the problem of oversaturation
(4) tournaments right now are designed poorly in that Koreans are 'taking money out of local ecosystems.'
I'm going to focus on point #4 because it's the most relevant in my opinion (plus the other issues have been discussed to death and I could care less about dealing with them right now). So Carmac brings up the issue of players retiring because they can't make a living off this game, where only a select few are able to rake in livable wages based on tournament winnings. He cites the need to grow local ecosystems, which I agree with.
I think it would be really good if there was an American scene in which only Americans would be allowed to play and win good prize money, and so on. This would be really helpful because: (a) it would motivate players within that region to practice and train because they would have a real chance of winning money and getting recognized, (b) long term it would help local sponsorship, which in turn would help that local/regional scene grow.
Now here's where I take issue. Carmac makes this argument, but his tournament (IEM), directly contributes to this problem. IEM in 2010 was great - there was an American tournament, a European tournament, and an Asian tournament. Each of the top from the regions played in the World Championships - at the end of it, we found a global champion! This is great. What happened in 2011 though? Each IEM became a "Global Challenge," which is slang for "We want more Koreans to play in IEM because we want the viewers/hot players/etc."
Yes, the Koreans are limited in the region that they aren't a part of - but does that stop them from taking a majority of the prize money? It didn't. At each of the IEM events last year; Koreans took roughly 50% of the prize money (with the outlier being Guangzhou, which had a very weak field of Korean players). Koreans won every IEM except Guangzhou. As an American player, I'm sure it feels great and motivating to watch a Korean player stand atop the pedestal at IEM New York when the year before the Top 3 finishers were Fenix, Qxc, and MurDer; all Americans.
For reference, here are each of the IEM events in Season 6, with the amount of prize money out of the total taken home to Korea (I did not count SeleCT as a Korean).
IEM SEASON 6
COLOGNE
10,450 / 21,000
GUANGZHOU
4,000 / 21,000
NY
11,400 / 21,000
KIEV
8,400 / 21,000
BRAZIL
11,050 / 21,000
This actually doesn't look bad! Foreigners took home 50% of the prize money at IEM events, this is much better than at MLG for example, where foreigners probably take home about 10% of the prize pool (I didn't look at MLG numbers, but I'm sure my statement is pretty accurate/). This is misleading. Most of the foreigners were in the lower part of the bracket, whose prize ranges from $600 - $800, which is not even enough to cover the cost of traveling to the event. While IEM does have a really nice prize distribution in terms of giving every competitor a prize, it is still the case that in almost every event last year, there were 2 Koreans in the top 4, where a majority of the prize resides.
Even so foreigners took home about 50% of the prize. Great. What happened at the World Championships? This is where you can see the thinking of IEM in action. Their tournament structure was designed to create a situation in which a majority of the player pool at the World Championship are Korean.
Here's a prize breakdown of the IEM World Finals
WORLD
68,700 / 83,000 (83%)
The tournament where it mattered, Koreans took a whopping 83% of the prize, which pretty much puts IEM right on par with an MLG or IPL.
So essentially, I love Carmac's argument and I agree with it 100%. I simply don't understand why IEM, a tournament that began as a bastion of regional competition, turned into a tournament just like every other, only with a better prize distribution.
I would love to see IEM return to its 2010 format, in which each event was region specific. This way non-Korean regional players would have a good chance to earn some real significant prize money, get great exposure, and be more motivated to compete and train. And by regional, I would love to see true regional tournaments, not Koreans living in the States playing in American qualifiers. This is why I love WCS so much, and I think it will be great for the scene if Blizzard continues with it. IEM could similarly help (as a side note: this is also why I loved IPL 1... very sad about IPL 5)!
Again, it's a really great article but I am simply confused by his own organization taking a stance that he is personally arguing against.
I'll end with one thing I really enjoy about IEM:
Not only does it get harder for someone new to break through, but the viewers begin to be narrow-minded about new players and see them as uninteresting rather than exciting (except in the GSL).
This is actually the best part about IEM. It has allowed for new players to break in due to how people qualify for it... I like that aspect. I.E. Gatored at IEM NY last year, or Feast last year are good examples of players being given a "shot" because of the sorta open qualification system.
Cheers. Hope you all enjoyed.
  
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At the end of the day, Carmac has to look out for the best interests of IEM - which means he has to do what everyone else is doing to try to stay ahead. As you mentioned, he did try to do things differently, and obviously it didn't work out nearly as well. But that doesn't mean he has to like what the scene has become.
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I also like Blizzard approach. It creates a chance for regional players to shine and be recognized.
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On November 15 2012 15:15 iGrok wrote:
At the end of the day, Carmac has to look out for the best interests of IEM - which means he has to do what everyone else is doing to try to stay ahead. As you mentioned, he did try to do things differently, and obviously it didn't work out nearly as well. But that doesn't mean he has to like what the scene has become.
True.. but as someone who (may be?) calls shots at an organization, trying to break the mold and be different can/is a good idea.
It's all about finding your niche.
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Great post, I totally agree, 2010 IEM was great, I believe it was the NY event where Gatored really made a splash taking out a few really good koreans and placing well. Stories like that seemed to be lacking last year in IEM, at least for me. It's possible the format changing and the same players getting invited to events had something to do with it.
Local scenes are really important, one example of one of the best viewership for an sc2 event in 2012 was WCS EU, awesome event with so many great storylines all with players the foreign community can easily relate to and no koreans. That event was so refreshing and fun to watch. At the end of the day I really like to see a balance, koreans and foreigner events split equally. Instead it seems like theres less and less room for foreigners and we're starting to see it with MLG attendance dropping (for sc2) and other stuff dropping off at least in NA. (Less teams and less money being paid to players etc) MLG isn't really helping on that front lately either, now they don't even release open bracket replays. Seems like there's less incentive than ever for foreign teams to send players to events which just kills players motivation to practice or goals to strive for.
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that was 2011 actually Rob! 
2010 was ONLY Americans, 2011 was the "Global Challenge." I like that IEM's give lesser known players a spotligh, but I liked the 2010 format that was purely regional better :D
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does IEM/ESL still run go4sc2's in EU and the US? That tournament was one of the main facilitators in the SEA region for competition early and it definitely supported many local amateurs, but it was completely phased out over time which was disappointing.
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ESL/Turtle Entertainment ( at least the European part of it ) provided a lot of competitions on a national/continental scale. I don't know if the us ESL branch provides anything to the local scene, but there at least were weekly go4sc2s there too if i remember correctly.
IEM always was the international branch of ESL so i dont think its wrong if the change the model of it.
Fact is that ESL provided a lot of groundwork for esports in europe and still pours money into local scenes in form of cups / local leagues.
So if u talk about your #4 i think you should really include what the companies behind all the big tournaments provides for local scenes.
and was the IEM NY 2010 the one that was on the same weekend as a MLG or was that 2011?
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The problem is that the scene is far too small. "regular" sports like soccer etc are so huge and has so many fans that it's very viable and lucratice to make regional and even local events. How many people ACTUALLY watch even the biggest SC2 streams though? Not enough for organizers to go "yeah, the 2000 people who watch this tournament with no koreans is good enough compared to the 30 000 we would get if we invited koreans".
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Italy12246 Posts
I'd like to see a comparison with European tournaments such as Dreamhack or Assembly as well.
While there's still Koreans usually winning those, there's rarely more than 4-5 top Koreans at these events, and it's quite common for someone who isn't as well known to make a good run.
@Tobbertooth: well, the viewer count for wcs eu was comparable to any other major tournament despite the complete lack of Korean players, so there's definitely potential for an audience if the tournament is very well organized and produced.
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Personally, I'd also love to more support for teams and team leagues. a single player's career is most of the time relatively short lived (at least the time he competes at the top). every couple of months, there are new players raising to the top. and if you don't follow the scene for half a year, you may have no idea who half of these players are.
If more focus was put on the teams - and esports fans were supporters of individual teams, not just individual players, it would certainly improve the longevity of esports, even beyond single game titles. And individual players, especially the mentioned middle class, would also benefit from this.
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I'm not convinced in the basic premise that more people need to make money from playing Starcraft at any cost. A lot of the performances we see from EU and in particular NA players aren't really spectate-worthy, and this fact would inevitably reflect itself on the viewer count of those regional/national events if they were to be implemented. The league that would go all-in with an idea like that would end up shooting themselves in the foot.
The issue that is being avoided here is that the audience doesn't necessarily want to see foreigners / local heroes play - they want to see them play well and take wins and championships off of the best players in the world. If the highest tier of play isn't present for whatever reason, a lot of the audience will simply be underwhelmed and disinterested anyway, even if the event is a reasonably well promoted and produced one and stacked with their favorite players (DH Bucharest).
Ultimately, it's the players that have to drive the growth of a local/regional/national scene, not the other way around. They have to sacrifice more and put in more effort even when there is no immediate reward to be had for their efforts - which is ultimately what a lot of Koreans are doing as well. It is the only way.
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On November 15 2012 16:57 Xeris wrote:that was 2011 actually Rob! 2010 was ONLY Americans, 2011 was the "Global Challenge." I like that IEM's give lesser known players a spotligh, but I liked the 2010 format that was purely regional better :D
Oh right that was 2011, of course if there were koreans...wow crazy how long ago that feels already and it was only last year.
I do remember 2010 now, Fenix won one that I watched and it was all guys like Drewbie, Silver, Murder, Qxc, Kiwikaki etc.
I also remember some other really early IEM 2010 tournament where morrow did 5rax reaper rush and also beat Idra on steppes of war in the finals lol.
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SC could learn from the Smash community, we had so many underground and local events it wasn't funny. We allowed players to make money being good only a local level and it created a great gaming ecosystem that still thrives to this day, even as the game ages beyond 10 years.
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Foreigners lack the work ethic. That's why they don't win. Koreans work harder. Why should someone be able to make a living off the game if they aren't as good? Maybe if players started training as hard as koreans and knew how to motivate themselves they might get better.
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On November 16 2012 02:20 ReachTheSky wrote:
Foreigners lack the work ethic. That's why they don't win. Koreans work harder. Why should someone be able to make a living off the game if they aren't as good? Maybe if players started training as hard as koreans and knew how to motivate themselves they might get better.
I always see comments like this and while I agree nobody ever really seems to want to talk about why this may be.
It's easy to say foreigners are lazy and lack work ethic, but it's also quite easy to lose motivation when there's less events to play in and no real way to work your way in or place in the money as a player who is trying to enter the scene. You need to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run and all we have lately in sc2 are track meets with Usain Bolt showing up everywhere.
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On November 16 2012 02:20 ReachTheSky wrote:
Foreigners lack the work ethic. That's why they don't win. Koreans work harder. Why should someone be able to make a living off the game if they aren't as good? Maybe if players started training as hard as koreans and knew how to motivate themselves they might get better.
Why practice when every major event is making sure that there are 8-15 code S Koreans, Kespa players and Stephano to their event to assure you will never win? And half of those will be seeded into groups. Do you think anyone would play division 3 college sports if the players were against division 1 teams with a one game lead? There are no minor leagues where someone can gain a following, win some small prize pools and work their way up in NA and EU has a limited amount of this.
Luckly Fool is right that there needs to be a focus on local players, rather than dragging in the best in the world to evey event. Competive people do not play games that they cannot win. If you stack the odd against them, they will just play a different game where they have a better chance of winning.
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I understand the desire for more foreigners in the scene, but they need to get good is the bottom line. Unless you are watching the very top foreign players..its most of the time actually painful to watch a game between 2 NA Pros/Semi pros, especially if you just watched a korean game. Its not even close to the same level and the mistakes borderline on amateurish. A good example of this is watching a TVT from the WCG In NY that I caught the other day. It was QXC vs Trimaster..while they are both good, watching them play each other was just painful and annoying when you consider you can load up a VOD of like Polt vs Bogus or something along those lines. I understand it comes down to preference of what people want to watch, but the skill level gap needs to close fast, or there needs to be a much stronger line on what is a considered a Professional Gamer in the rest of the world.
And consider it from the Korean POV..TB has talked about this a lot on how absurdly good some of these teamless players are and they don't/aren't able to get recognition for their skills compared to some awful foreign players making comfy livings. Where are the opportunities for those players, why must it be local heroes? And to be whining about them taking all the money after they have to travel far, have insane schedules and were either invited or played through lag to get an invite? its just plain silly. Its also a little late to be thinking about these kinds of things bc the skill gap is widening rapidly with the kespa players arrival on the sc2 scene. HotS and its clean slate is going to be even more of a challenge for non korean players.
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On November 16 2012 03:38 Irre wrote:
I understand the desire for more foreigners in the scene, but they need to get good is the bottom line. Unless you are watching the very top foreign players..its most of the time actually painful to watch a game between 2 NA Pros/Semi pros, especially if you just watched a korean game. Its not even close to the same level and the mistakes borderline on amateurish. A good example of this is watching a TVT from the WCG In NY that I caught the other day. It was QXC vs Trimaster..while they are both good, watching them play each other was just painful and annoying when you consider you can load up a VOD of like Polt vs Bogus or something along those lines. I understand it comes down to preference of what people want to watch, but the skill level gap needs to close fast, or there needs to be a much stronger line on what is a considered a Professional Gamer in the rest of the world.
And consider it from the Korean POV..TB has talked about this a lot on how absurdly good some of these teamless players are and they don't/aren't able to get recognition for their skills compared to some awful foreign players making comfy livings. Where are the opportunities for those players, why must it be local heroes? And to be whining about them taking all the money after they have to travel far, have insane schedules and were either invited or played through lag to get an invite? its just plain silly. Its also a little late to be thinking about these kinds of things bc the skill gap is widening rapidly with the kespa players arrival on the sc2 scene. HotS and its clean slate is going to be even more of a challenge for non korean players.
But I don’t care how good a random Korean player and I don’t really care if he wins. I don’t really care who wins anything in Korea beyond the GSL, which is the sole league I watch from Korea. And that has to do with the quality of the casting and production, more than the awesome players.
BWC Europe had no Korean players in it and had better viewership that BWC Asia. There were a number of reasons for that, but the simple fact is that we like EU and NA players more. Viewership drops through the floor for most leagues once the last non-Korean is eliminated. And the only way the semi-pro players from NA are going to get better is to give them reasons to compete. The ladder isn’t enough and there isn’t a lot else.
For people who think the games will be bad, well that may be true, but it won’t last. The players will step it up to do better, practice more in an effort to win. Right now, players have no reason to try to become the best, because the chance of them making it groups in MLG or NASL is almost none.
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On November 16 2012 03:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 02:20 ReachTheSky wrote:
Foreigners lack the work ethic. That's why they don't win. Koreans work harder. Why should someone be able to make a living off the game if they aren't as good? Maybe if players started training as hard as koreans and knew how to motivate themselves they might get better. Why practice when every major event is making sure that there are 8-15 code S Koreans, Kespa players and Stephano to their event to assure you will never win?
If a player doesn't aspire to be better than Code S Koreans, Kespa and Stephano and look forward to the opportunity to be matched against them, then he probably shouldn't be investing his time into a progaming career to begin with. Like you said, competitive people do not play games that they feel they can't win.
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And by regional, I would love to see true regional tournaments, not Koreans living in the States playing in American qualifiers. This is why I love WCS so much, and I think it will be great for the scene if Blizzard continues with it.
I agree that we need to have more region only events! I think my favorite events this year were all related to the Blizzard World Championship. I loved watching and casting up the US qualifiers to see what up and coming or lesser known players would get a chance to play at the National event. (I'm still mad at the lack of coverage of the US Nationals T_T) Events like this are extremely important for the continued growth of Starcraft. I really hope that Blizzard will continue to support this over the Blizzcon event. (There will be more Blizzcons that's always going to happen when they announce information about expansions and stuff but having a continued BWCS would be amazing!)
Who knows though now that MLG, ESL, and Dreamhack are now working together maybe they will consider having more of these type of events. (Probably not though)
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On November 16 2012 04:41 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 03:26 Plansix wrote:On November 16 2012 02:20 ReachTheSky wrote:
Foreigners lack the work ethic. That's why they don't win. Koreans work harder. Why should someone be able to make a living off the game if they aren't as good? Maybe if players started training as hard as koreans and knew how to motivate themselves they might get better. Why practice when every major event is making sure that there are 8-15 code S Koreans, Kespa players and Stephano to their event to assure you will never win? If a player doesn't aspire to be better than Code S Koreans, Kespa and Stephano and look forward to the opportunity to be matched against them, then he probably shouldn't be investing his time into a progaming career to begin with. Like you said, competitive people do not play games that they feel they can't win.
But you missed the point of that statement, or ignored it to make your own point. The argument of “Players should want to play Code S players and should be grateful for the chance to be beaten by them. If they lose to those professionals, the answer is practice more” is pretty weak and does not address the subject at hand.
There need to be building blocks for players to work up to code S level players. Do you think the Korea ladder just births these players into the GSL qualifiers? Because it doesn’t. They have minor leagues that allow players to work their way up, win at minor events, get prize money and work their way on to a team.
Players want to play at the code S level, but they need a road to get there. Right now, there is none in the NA scene and Carmac’s point is that the major groups need to work on developing that. Flying Koreans from all over the world to every event to beat the local players and take the prize money is not going to do that.
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On November 16 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 03:38 Irre wrote:
I understand the desire for more foreigners in the scene, but they need to get good is the bottom line. Unless you are watching the very top foreign players..its most of the time actually painful to watch a game between 2 NA Pros/Semi pros, especially if you just watched a korean game. Its not even close to the same level and the mistakes borderline on amateurish. A good example of this is watching a TVT from the WCG In NY that I caught the other day. It was QXC vs Trimaster..while they are both good, watching them play each other was just painful and annoying when you consider you can load up a VOD of like Polt vs Bogus or something along those lines. I understand it comes down to preference of what people want to watch, but the skill level gap needs to close fast, or there needs to be a much stronger line on what is a considered a Professional Gamer in the rest of the world.
And consider it from the Korean POV..TB has talked about this a lot on how absurdly good some of these teamless players are and they don't/aren't able to get recognition for their skills compared to some awful foreign players making comfy livings. Where are the opportunities for those players, why must it be local heroes? And to be whining about them taking all the money after they have to travel far, have insane schedules and were either invited or played through lag to get an invite? its just plain silly. Its also a little late to be thinking about these kinds of things bc the skill gap is widening rapidly with the kespa players arrival on the sc2 scene. HotS and its clean slate is going to be even more of a challenge for non korean players.
But I don’t care how good a random Korean player and I don’t really care if he wins. I don’t really care who wins anything in Korea beyond the GSL, which is the sole league I watch from Korea. And that has to do with the quality of the casting and production, more than the awesome players. BWC Europe had no Korean players in it and had better viewership that BWC Asia. There were a number of reasons for that, but the simple fact is that we like EU and NA players more. Viewership drops through the floor for most leagues once the last non-Korean is eliminated. And the only way the semi-pro players from NA are going to get better is to give them reasons to compete. The ladder isn’t enough and there isn’t a lot else. For people who think the games will be bad, well that may be true, but it won’t last. The players will step it up to do better, practice more in an effort to win. Right now, players have no reason to try to become the best, because the chance of them making it groups in MLG or NASL is almost none.
but yet the only reason we care about random white dude winning is if he beats a "random Korean" or if they made Idra rage. Unknown Koreans develop that kind of fan base eventually through same means except by beating people on a much higher level. And if not the Koreans being there, guess what? Free money for Stephano Naniwa, Mana, and a few select others, because the BEST non Korean players actually want to be the best, and they train in or with Korea. Esports is global, and entertainment doesn't just come from looking like someone else. You can be entertaining and engaging no matter where you come from and the sooner the community gives up this pointless shit about caring where the best play is coming from rather than just caring about the best play, we will be much better off. I guess the biggest problem is the language barrier, but the bigger things become everyone will have more motivation and reason to learn english, so this will remedy itself as well.
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On November 16 2012 05:35 Irre wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:On November 16 2012 03:38 Irre wrote:
I understand the desire for more foreigners in the scene, but they need to get good is the bottom line. Unless you are watching the very top foreign players..its most of the time actually painful to watch a game between 2 NA Pros/Semi pros, especially if you just watched a korean game. Its not even close to the same level and the mistakes borderline on amateurish. A good example of this is watching a TVT from the WCG In NY that I caught the other day. It was QXC vs Trimaster..while they are both good, watching them play each other was just painful and annoying when you consider you can load up a VOD of like Polt vs Bogus or something along those lines. I understand it comes down to preference of what people want to watch, but the skill level gap needs to close fast, or there needs to be a much stronger line on what is a considered a Professional Gamer in the rest of the world.
And consider it from the Korean POV..TB has talked about this a lot on how absurdly good some of these teamless players are and they don't/aren't able to get recognition for their skills compared to some awful foreign players making comfy livings. Where are the opportunities for those players, why must it be local heroes? And to be whining about them taking all the money after they have to travel far, have insane schedules and were either invited or played through lag to get an invite? its just plain silly. Its also a little late to be thinking about these kinds of things bc the skill gap is widening rapidly with the kespa players arrival on the sc2 scene. HotS and its clean slate is going to be even more of a challenge for non korean players.
But I don’t care how good a random Korean player and I don’t really care if he wins. I don’t really care who wins anything in Korea beyond the GSL, which is the sole league I watch from Korea. And that has to do with the quality of the casting and production, more than the awesome players. BWC Europe had no Korean players in it and had better viewership that BWC Asia. There were a number of reasons for that, but the simple fact is that we like EU and NA players more. Viewership drops through the floor for most leagues once the last non-Korean is eliminated. And the only way the semi-pro players from NA are going to get better is to give them reasons to compete. The ladder isn’t enough and there isn’t a lot else. For people who think the games will be bad, well that may be true, but it won’t last. The players will step it up to do better, practice more in an effort to win. Right now, players have no reason to try to become the best, because the chance of them making it groups in MLG or NASL is almost none. but yet the only reason we care about random white dude winning is if he beats a "random Korean" or if they made Idra rage. Unknown Koreans develop that kind of fan base eventually through same means except by beating people on a much higher level. And if not the Koreans being there, guess what? Free money for Stephano Naniwa, Mana, and a few select others, because the BEST non Korean players actually want to be the best, and they train in or with Korea. Esports is global, and entertainment doesn't just come from looking like someone else. You can be entertaining and engaging no matter where you come from and the sooner the community gives up this pointless shit about caring where the best play is coming from rather than just caring about the best play, we will be much better off. I guess the biggest problem is the language barrier, but the bigger things become everyone will have more motivation and reason to learn english, so this will remedy itself as well.
It will be free money for Stephano, Mana, Idra and other players for a little bit, but then someone will rise and take one of them down. And then RisingStar5 will be the new hero of the NA/EU scene and we can watch him/her getting signed to a team, throw down in show matches and play against the top Koreans at BWC 2013. This could happen to a number of players.
That could happen if Korean players are invited, but it limits the chances of newer players to break into the scene. From growth to happen on the local level, people need to focus on it more, rather than forcing the local players to compete against the entire world.
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On November 16 2012 05:12 Plansix wrote:
There need to be building blocks for players to work up to code S level players. Do you think the Korea ladder just births these players into the GSL qualifiers? Because it doesn’t. They have minor leagues that allow players to work their way up, win at minor events, get prize money and work their way on to a team.
What minor leagues?
If you're referring to Korean weeklies/EWMs, GSL level players play (and win) those all the time. If anything, Koreans have to go through much tougher competition to get ANY money at all. Imagine having to face a Taeja or Squirtle or Life and having to beat them to make as little as $100-$200 in an online event.
Korean players work their way up themselves. There's no building blocks, no roundabout way that makes it easier, in Korea least of all places. Every single Korean player has had to work his way up to being better than 99% foreigners without/before earning a dime from playing Starcraft. That is what births quality.
On November 16 2012 05:12 Plansix wrote:
Players want to play at the code S level, but they need a road to get there. Right now, there is none in the NA scene and Carmac’s point is that the major groups need to work on developing that. Flying Koreans from all over the world to every event to beat the local players and take the prize money is not going to do that.
But they already have a road to get there. Having access to the same tournaments as the top players in the world IS that road. For a competitive player, that's a blessing, not a curse.
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On November 16 2012 06:27 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:12 Plansix wrote:
There need to be building blocks for players to work up to code S level players. Do you think the Korea ladder just births these players into the GSL qualifiers? Because it doesn’t. They have minor leagues that allow players to work their way up, win at minor events, get prize money and work their way on to a team. What minor leagues? If you're referring to Korean weeklies/EWMs, GSL level players play (and win) those all the time. If anything, Koreans have to go through much tougher competition to get ANY money at all. Imagine having to face a Taeja or Squirtle or Life and having to beat them to make as little as $100-$200 in an online event. Korean players work their way up themselves. There's no building blocks, no roundabout way that makes it easier, in Korea least of all places. Every single Korean player has had to work his way up to being better than 99% foreigners without/before earning a dime from playing Starcraft. That is what births quality. Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:12 Plansix wrote:
Players want to play at the code S level, but they need a road to get there. Right now, there is none in the NA scene and Carmac’s point is that the major groups need to work on developing that. Flying Koreans from all over the world to every event to beat the local players and take the prize money is not going to do that. But they already have a road to get there. Having access to the same tournaments as the top players in the world IS that road. For a competitive player, that's a blessing, not a curse.
So they have weekly tournaments which they can compete in and win. If I remember correctly, both Tejia and Sea both ripped through those weekly events with style and flair. And after doing well in those leagues, they were signed to TL. What weekly events do NA players have to compete for money against Idra, QXC, Nony, Scarlet and Vibe? If you asked players if they would like to compete against Idra all the other NA pros for $200 a week, people would try and we would be better for it.
You say that Koreans have a harder road, but that is the point. They have the infrastructure to make better players. They have the ability to compete at a high level with a reward at the end. NA players get to practice on the NA ladder and then enter the MGL open bracket against Code S players. There is no middle of the road. It is like someone playing Highschool basketball and then entering the NBA. Dumping Korean players into the NA and EU events does not help scene grow, it only discourages people from playing because they see the odd stacked against them. People are not going to be excited about have the opportunity to lose to the best Korea has to offer four times a year.
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Does it have so much to do with Koreans taking prize money home, or is it more that without foreign title holders, it's hard to build fanbases and do PR stuff. Half a progamer's job might be signing photos and doing fan-meetings, but if he's not in your country you can't do much about it. I think the argument about them taking money out of the local economy is ridiculous though, because I don't think foreigners would be reinvesting it into the foreign scene either. As far as the foreign scene making money, the management of these events get more money (to reinvest or otherwise) by having the big names people care about (which in SCII are mostly Korean). Since they're broadcast over the internet, you kinda want Korean viewers to have their own players to root for too. If you don't have Koreans at all, the tournament looks illegitimate..
Well, it's easy to list off problems. Coming up with a viable solution is nearly impossible at this state of the scene. It doesn't really work to just exclude Koreans at this point, since it just makes your tournament look pathetic. You have to breed a group of super-foreigners capable of taking down the Koreans, that are worth the investment of extra air time and promotion. Hard to promote losers (whether the odds are against them or not).
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To be clear, I am not talking about excluding Koreans from any event. I would just like to see tournament stop making exceptions for them, flying them to and seeding them into events. It stifles the local players and possible rising stars. Plus if teams are sending players out or they are going on their own dime, it feels unfair. I don’t need to see my favorite player plow through the an entire bracket of code S players to enjoy them winning.
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Italy12246 Posts
Plansix, you can't be serious.
Taeja was on Slayers before TL, and Sea was a freaking BW pro gamer...the guy won a freakin proleague final ace match before TL even had a pro team.
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On November 16 2012 07:33 Teoita wrote:
Plansix, you can't be serious.
Taeja was on Slayers before TL, and Sea was a freaking BW pro gamer...the guy won a freakin proleague final ace match before TL even had a pro team.
I forgot Taeja was on Slayers before TL and I had never heard of Sea before he was on TL. I apologize my examples of up and coming korean players are poor, I wrote that at work and could dig through liquidpida.
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The point is that those weekly tournaments ain't any easier and don't have lesser opposition than a Code A or an early Code S round. So it's not really a building block or a stepping stone in the sense that it allows lesser known players to gradually improve and become better known and earn some money. I mean it does, but only when they're able to beat the top GSL players to get there.
There's a ton of weekly and daily cups for NA/EU as far as I'm aware (I haven't been paying much attention to SC2 the last few months, but I can't imagine they disappeared). They may have an odd Korean like Hyun or Violet in them every now and then, but it's still like 10 times easier than the equivalent tournaments are in Korea are.
That said, I do agree with you that Koreans shouldn't receive preferential treatment (seeds etc) at tournaments.
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EPT
