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And by regional, I would love to see true regional tournaments, not Koreans living in the States playing in American qualifiers. This is why I love WCS so much, and I think it will be great for the scene if Blizzard continues with it.
I agree that we need to have more region only events! I think my favorite events this year were all related to the Blizzard World Championship. I loved watching and casting up the US qualifiers to see what up and coming or lesser known players would get a chance to play at the National event. (I'm still mad at the lack of coverage of the US Nationals T_T) Events like this are extremely important for the continued growth of Starcraft. I really hope that Blizzard will continue to support this over the Blizzcon event. (There will be more Blizzcons that's always going to happen when they announce information about expansions and stuff but having a continued BWCS would be amazing!)
Who knows though now that MLG, ESL, and Dreamhack are now working together maybe they will consider having more of these type of events. (Probably not though)
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On November 16 2012 04:41 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 03:26 Plansix wrote:On November 16 2012 02:20 ReachTheSky wrote:
Foreigners lack the work ethic. That's why they don't win. Koreans work harder. Why should someone be able to make a living off the game if they aren't as good? Maybe if players started training as hard as koreans and knew how to motivate themselves they might get better. Why practice when every major event is making sure that there are 8-15 code S Koreans, Kespa players and Stephano to their event to assure you will never win? If a player doesn't aspire to be better than Code S Koreans, Kespa and Stephano and look forward to the opportunity to be matched against them, then he probably shouldn't be investing his time into a progaming career to begin with. Like you said, competitive people do not play games that they feel they can't win.
But you missed the point of that statement, or ignored it to make your own point. The argument of “Players should want to play Code S players and should be grateful for the chance to be beaten by them. If they lose to those professionals, the answer is practice more” is pretty weak and does not address the subject at hand.
There need to be building blocks for players to work up to code S level players. Do you think the Korea ladder just births these players into the GSL qualifiers? Because it doesn’t. They have minor leagues that allow players to work their way up, win at minor events, get prize money and work their way on to a team.
Players want to play at the code S level, but they need a road to get there. Right now, there is none in the NA scene and Carmac’s point is that the major groups need to work on developing that. Flying Koreans from all over the world to every event to beat the local players and take the prize money is not going to do that.
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On November 16 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 03:38 Irre wrote:
I understand the desire for more foreigners in the scene, but they need to get good is the bottom line. Unless you are watching the very top foreign players..its most of the time actually painful to watch a game between 2 NA Pros/Semi pros, especially if you just watched a korean game. Its not even close to the same level and the mistakes borderline on amateurish. A good example of this is watching a TVT from the WCG In NY that I caught the other day. It was QXC vs Trimaster..while they are both good, watching them play each other was just painful and annoying when you consider you can load up a VOD of like Polt vs Bogus or something along those lines. I understand it comes down to preference of what people want to watch, but the skill level gap needs to close fast, or there needs to be a much stronger line on what is a considered a Professional Gamer in the rest of the world.
And consider it from the Korean POV..TB has talked about this a lot on how absurdly good some of these teamless players are and they don't/aren't able to get recognition for their skills compared to some awful foreign players making comfy livings. Where are the opportunities for those players, why must it be local heroes? And to be whining about them taking all the money after they have to travel far, have insane schedules and were either invited or played through lag to get an invite? its just plain silly. Its also a little late to be thinking about these kinds of things bc the skill gap is widening rapidly with the kespa players arrival on the sc2 scene. HotS and its clean slate is going to be even more of a challenge for non korean players.
But I don’t care how good a random Korean player and I don’t really care if he wins. I don’t really care who wins anything in Korea beyond the GSL, which is the sole league I watch from Korea. And that has to do with the quality of the casting and production, more than the awesome players. BWC Europe had no Korean players in it and had better viewership that BWC Asia. There were a number of reasons for that, but the simple fact is that we like EU and NA players more. Viewership drops through the floor for most leagues once the last non-Korean is eliminated. And the only way the semi-pro players from NA are going to get better is to give them reasons to compete. The ladder isn’t enough and there isn’t a lot else. For people who think the games will be bad, well that may be true, but it won’t last. The players will step it up to do better, practice more in an effort to win. Right now, players have no reason to try to become the best, because the chance of them making it groups in MLG or NASL is almost none.
but yet the only reason we care about random white dude winning is if he beats a "random Korean" or if they made Idra rage. Unknown Koreans develop that kind of fan base eventually through same means except by beating people on a much higher level. And if not the Koreans being there, guess what? Free money for Stephano Naniwa, Mana, and a few select others, because the BEST non Korean players actually want to be the best, and they train in or with Korea. Esports is global, and entertainment doesn't just come from looking like someone else. You can be entertaining and engaging no matter where you come from and the sooner the community gives up this pointless shit about caring where the best play is coming from rather than just caring about the best play, we will be much better off. I guess the biggest problem is the language barrier, but the bigger things become everyone will have more motivation and reason to learn english, so this will remedy itself as well.
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On November 16 2012 05:35 Irre wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:On November 16 2012 03:38 Irre wrote:
I understand the desire for more foreigners in the scene, but they need to get good is the bottom line. Unless you are watching the very top foreign players..its most of the time actually painful to watch a game between 2 NA Pros/Semi pros, especially if you just watched a korean game. Its not even close to the same level and the mistakes borderline on amateurish. A good example of this is watching a TVT from the WCG In NY that I caught the other day. It was QXC vs Trimaster..while they are both good, watching them play each other was just painful and annoying when you consider you can load up a VOD of like Polt vs Bogus or something along those lines. I understand it comes down to preference of what people want to watch, but the skill level gap needs to close fast, or there needs to be a much stronger line on what is a considered a Professional Gamer in the rest of the world.
And consider it from the Korean POV..TB has talked about this a lot on how absurdly good some of these teamless players are and they don't/aren't able to get recognition for their skills compared to some awful foreign players making comfy livings. Where are the opportunities for those players, why must it be local heroes? And to be whining about them taking all the money after they have to travel far, have insane schedules and were either invited or played through lag to get an invite? its just plain silly. Its also a little late to be thinking about these kinds of things bc the skill gap is widening rapidly with the kespa players arrival on the sc2 scene. HotS and its clean slate is going to be even more of a challenge for non korean players.
But I don’t care how good a random Korean player and I don’t really care if he wins. I don’t really care who wins anything in Korea beyond the GSL, which is the sole league I watch from Korea. And that has to do with the quality of the casting and production, more than the awesome players. BWC Europe had no Korean players in it and had better viewership that BWC Asia. There were a number of reasons for that, but the simple fact is that we like EU and NA players more. Viewership drops through the floor for most leagues once the last non-Korean is eliminated. And the only way the semi-pro players from NA are going to get better is to give them reasons to compete. The ladder isn’t enough and there isn’t a lot else. For people who think the games will be bad, well that may be true, but it won’t last. The players will step it up to do better, practice more in an effort to win. Right now, players have no reason to try to become the best, because the chance of them making it groups in MLG or NASL is almost none. but yet the only reason we care about random white dude winning is if he beats a "random Korean" or if they made Idra rage. Unknown Koreans develop that kind of fan base eventually through same means except by beating people on a much higher level. And if not the Koreans being there, guess what? Free money for Stephano Naniwa, Mana, and a few select others, because the BEST non Korean players actually want to be the best, and they train in or with Korea. Esports is global, and entertainment doesn't just come from looking like someone else. You can be entertaining and engaging no matter where you come from and the sooner the community gives up this pointless shit about caring where the best play is coming from rather than just caring about the best play, we will be much better off. I guess the biggest problem is the language barrier, but the bigger things become everyone will have more motivation and reason to learn english, so this will remedy itself as well.
It will be free money for Stephano, Mana, Idra and other players for a little bit, but then someone will rise and take one of them down. And then RisingStar5 will be the new hero of the NA/EU scene and we can watch him/her getting signed to a team, throw down in show matches and play against the top Koreans at BWC 2013. This could happen to a number of players.
That could happen if Korean players are invited, but it limits the chances of newer players to break into the scene. From growth to happen on the local level, people need to focus on it more, rather than forcing the local players to compete against the entire world.
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On November 16 2012 05:12 Plansix wrote:
There need to be building blocks for players to work up to code S level players. Do you think the Korea ladder just births these players into the GSL qualifiers? Because it doesn’t. They have minor leagues that allow players to work their way up, win at minor events, get prize money and work their way on to a team.
What minor leagues?
If you're referring to Korean weeklies/EWMs, GSL level players play (and win) those all the time. If anything, Koreans have to go through much tougher competition to get ANY money at all. Imagine having to face a Taeja or Squirtle or Life and having to beat them to make as little as $100-$200 in an online event.
Korean players work their way up themselves. There's no building blocks, no roundabout way that makes it easier, in Korea least of all places. Every single Korean player has had to work his way up to being better than 99% foreigners without/before earning a dime from playing Starcraft. That is what births quality.
On November 16 2012 05:12 Plansix wrote:
Players want to play at the code S level, but they need a road to get there. Right now, there is none in the NA scene and Carmac’s point is that the major groups need to work on developing that. Flying Koreans from all over the world to every event to beat the local players and take the prize money is not going to do that.
But they already have a road to get there. Having access to the same tournaments as the top players in the world IS that road. For a competitive player, that's a blessing, not a curse.
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On November 16 2012 06:27 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:12 Plansix wrote:
There need to be building blocks for players to work up to code S level players. Do you think the Korea ladder just births these players into the GSL qualifiers? Because it doesn’t. They have minor leagues that allow players to work their way up, win at minor events, get prize money and work their way on to a team. What minor leagues? If you're referring to Korean weeklies/EWMs, GSL level players play (and win) those all the time. If anything, Koreans have to go through much tougher competition to get ANY money at all. Imagine having to face a Taeja or Squirtle or Life and having to beat them to make as little as $100-$200 in an online event. Korean players work their way up themselves. There's no building blocks, no roundabout way that makes it easier, in Korea least of all places. Every single Korean player has had to work his way up to being better than 99% foreigners without/before earning a dime from playing Starcraft. That is what births quality. Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:12 Plansix wrote:
Players want to play at the code S level, but they need a road to get there. Right now, there is none in the NA scene and Carmac’s point is that the major groups need to work on developing that. Flying Koreans from all over the world to every event to beat the local players and take the prize money is not going to do that. But they already have a road to get there. Having access to the same tournaments as the top players in the world IS that road. For a competitive player, that's a blessing, not a curse.
So they have weekly tournaments which they can compete in and win. If I remember correctly, both Tejia and Sea both ripped through those weekly events with style and flair. And after doing well in those leagues, they were signed to TL. What weekly events do NA players have to compete for money against Idra, QXC, Nony, Scarlet and Vibe? If you asked players if they would like to compete against Idra all the other NA pros for $200 a week, people would try and we would be better for it.
You say that Koreans have a harder road, but that is the point. They have the infrastructure to make better players. They have the ability to compete at a high level with a reward at the end. NA players get to practice on the NA ladder and then enter the MGL open bracket against Code S players. There is no middle of the road. It is like someone playing Highschool basketball and then entering the NBA. Dumping Korean players into the NA and EU events does not help scene grow, it only discourages people from playing because they see the odd stacked against them. People are not going to be excited about have the opportunity to lose to the best Korea has to offer four times a year.
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Does it have so much to do with Koreans taking prize money home, or is it more that without foreign title holders, it's hard to build fanbases and do PR stuff. Half a progamer's job might be signing photos and doing fan-meetings, but if he's not in your country you can't do much about it. I think the argument about them taking money out of the local economy is ridiculous though, because I don't think foreigners would be reinvesting it into the foreign scene either. As far as the foreign scene making money, the management of these events get more money (to reinvest or otherwise) by having the big names people care about (which in SCII are mostly Korean). Since they're broadcast over the internet, you kinda want Korean viewers to have their own players to root for too. If you don't have Koreans at all, the tournament looks illegitimate..
Well, it's easy to list off problems. Coming up with a viable solution is nearly impossible at this state of the scene. It doesn't really work to just exclude Koreans at this point, since it just makes your tournament look pathetic. You have to breed a group of super-foreigners capable of taking down the Koreans, that are worth the investment of extra air time and promotion. Hard to promote losers (whether the odds are against them or not).
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To be clear, I am not talking about excluding Koreans from any event. I would just like to see tournament stop making exceptions for them, flying them to and seeding them into events. It stifles the local players and possible rising stars. Plus if teams are sending players out or they are going on their own dime, it feels unfair. I don’t need to see my favorite player plow through the an entire bracket of code S players to enjoy them winning.
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Italy12246 Posts
Plansix, you can't be serious.
Taeja was on Slayers before TL, and Sea was a freaking BW pro gamer...the guy won a freakin proleague final ace match before TL even had a pro team.
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On November 16 2012 07:33 Teoita wrote:
Plansix, you can't be serious.
Taeja was on Slayers before TL, and Sea was a freaking BW pro gamer...the guy won a freakin proleague final ace match before TL even had a pro team.
I forgot Taeja was on Slayers before TL and I had never heard of Sea before he was on TL. I apologize my examples of up and coming korean players are poor, I wrote that at work and could dig through liquidpida.
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The point is that those weekly tournaments ain't any easier and don't have lesser opposition than a Code A or an early Code S round. So it's not really a building block or a stepping stone in the sense that it allows lesser known players to gradually improve and become better known and earn some money. I mean it does, but only when they're able to beat the top GSL players to get there.
There's a ton of weekly and daily cups for NA/EU as far as I'm aware (I haven't been paying much attention to SC2 the last few months, but I can't imagine they disappeared). They may have an odd Korean like Hyun or Violet in them every now and then, but it's still like 10 times easier than the equivalent tournaments are in Korea are.
That said, I do agree with you that Koreans shouldn't receive preferential treatment (seeds etc) at tournaments.
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EPT
