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On October 25 2012 17:04 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 07:34 skyR wrote:On October 25 2012 07:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 25 2012 07:08 HorsemasterK wrote:On October 25 2012 06:51 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 25 2012 06:36 HorsemasterK wrote:
LoL is more accessible, both to play and to watch. MOBA games are pretty arcane to those who have not played them, and since League is the simplest/most played, its got the largest audience.
Also, there is this false assumption that more complex games make better sports. The rules of most popular sports aren't all that complicated, yet the strategies employed by professional teams are. Kids can play a pickup game of basketball; the rules are simple, but no one would suggest that since children play the sport, there cannot be skilled play. Yea, but the rules are simple for both games (arguably the same), it is still the strategies and tactics employed. You stated a couple of the ways DoTA is more complex in your OP, should I quote you? The only one that could be considered a rule is maybe denying, but I dont really view that as a rule. Why do I not see it as a rule? Because it makes logical sense to be able to deny. I was surprised I couldnt when I first played LoL... why did they restrict that? Because denying ruins the game for the majority of players. If you suck at the game (which the majority of players do) or just going up against a very nasty lane combo than not getting last hits is already bad enough, why discourage the player further by telling them "you fucking suck"? i think micro ruins sc2 for the majority of players. if you suck at the the game, which the majority of players do, or are just playing against a terran, why discourage that player further by making it so your zerglings and banelings can never hit his marines?
You're right. Denying would actually make LoL a better game. Denying isn't a problem in DotA when playing noob vs noob games, and in pro games, there's obviously no problem with denying, so there really is no reason to not have that option.
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On October 25 2012 17:04 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 07:34 skyR wrote:On October 25 2012 07:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 25 2012 07:08 HorsemasterK wrote:On October 25 2012 06:51 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 25 2012 06:36 HorsemasterK wrote:
LoL is more accessible, both to play and to watch. MOBA games are pretty arcane to those who have not played them, and since League is the simplest/most played, its got the largest audience.
Also, there is this false assumption that more complex games make better sports. The rules of most popular sports aren't all that complicated, yet the strategies employed by professional teams are. Kids can play a pickup game of basketball; the rules are simple, but no one would suggest that since children play the sport, there cannot be skilled play. Yea, but the rules are simple for both games (arguably the same), it is still the strategies and tactics employed. You stated a couple of the ways DoTA is more complex in your OP, should I quote you? The only one that could be considered a rule is maybe denying, but I dont really view that as a rule. Why do I not see it as a rule? Because it makes logical sense to be able to deny. I was surprised I couldnt when I first played LoL... why did they restrict that? Because denying ruins the game for the majority of players. If you suck at the game (which the majority of players do) or just going up against a very nasty lane combo than not getting last hits is already bad enough, why discourage the player further by telling them "you fucking suck"? i think micro ruins sc2 for the majority of players. if you suck at the the game, which the majority of players do, or are just playing against a terran, why discourage that player further by making it so your zerglings and banelings can never hit his marines?
The deny mechanic does not define LoL or DotA. Micro defines Starcraft II.
And guess what? Most people don't play 1v1 because ya... it's discouraging.
Thanks for trying to be a douche but coming off as a total dumbass.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
People in China aren't going to switch to Dota 2 for the money, The Chinese scene is well established and teams such as iG, DK and LGD all have players who have been playing for over 3 years. They will find themselves hardpressed to get even a little amount of money.
The difference between Dota and LoL is in their design philosophy, LoL has an anti-Anti-Fun Philosophy, which imo is why Dota is the better competitive game(imo) but both are still fine for competition. I find Dota more fun, others find LoL more fun
to each their own
Denying and stuff is really pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, its just a design decision that makes them play differently.
actually denying is very relevant because it changes the entire gameplay of Dota and makes it less attractive to casuals.
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Maybe some people find LoL more fun? Haven't even seen that point come up once.
Go is more complex than chess, mathematically speaking, so why does anyone play chess? Isn't go the better game?
You could also add more squares and pieces to a chess board to make it even the complexity of go, but what's the point, really, unless you don't like having top computers able to beat the top players. (after god knows how long of development)
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On October 25 2012 17:11 Animzor wrote:
You're right. Denying would actually make LoL a better game. Denying isn't a problem in DotA when playing noob vs noob games, and in pro games, there's obviously no problem with denying, so there really is no reason to not have that option.
Not really, LoL was designed to be playable without deny. If you had deny in the actual LoL, it will be totally stupid and the game will have to be reworked completely. It will be even more cruel than in DotA 2. And after that, you can call it DotA : Carton Graphics. LoL is good at what it does actually, why don't just accept people want to play LoL and not a DotA rip-off ?
Because if they want, they can play a game called DotA 2.
On October 25 2012 18:23 Slayer91 wrote:
Maybe some people find LoL more fun? Haven't even seen that point come up once.
Go is more complex than chess, mathematically speaking, so why does anyone play chess? Isn't go the better game?
You could also add more squares and pieces to a chess board to make it even the complexity of go, but what's the point, really, unless you don't like having top computers able to beat the top players. (after god knows how long of development)
I said it, and I wasn't alone. 
And yeah, complexity of a game doesn't have any relation with popularity, or fun of the game. Chess/go is an exemple, football is another one, rules are pretty damn basic too and it's the most popular sport.
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But LoL is a DotA rip-off. They just decided not to include denying. I do agree that LoL is the superior game, but I wouldn't mind if they added some more depth, starting with denying.
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Except the concept of deny can't work with LoL actually.
I don't know how much you've played the game but, without any deny, it's still possible to zone and snowball your opponent really hard. If you can freeze your lane under your tower (LoL tower, hard to dive at first) thanks to deny, and you put one single ward in the closest bush, you are pretty much safe from anything.
If you want to add deny, you have to add possibilities for the other team, in the form of ganks. To be successful, it needs to have more routes in the jungle, since actually one ward is enough to cover a defensive lane. It needs weaker towers, because even if towers are almost negligeable quite fast in the game, the time it happens, the snowball is already set up. It needs level advantage to be less efficient, since having two levels more than your opponent is a huuuuge lead, compared to DotA.
LoL was inspired by DotA, but now the game has taken its own path.
By adding only a small mechanical option like deny, you have to remake nearly the whole game, starting with the maps, then the heroes, the leveling system, and I'm too lazy to think even more.
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On October 25 2012 21:17 Animzor wrote:
But LoL is a DotA rip-off. They just decided not to include denying. I do agree that LoL is the superior game, but I wouldn't mind if they added some more depth, starting with denying.
SC2 is a SC rip off. Which is an "insert X game from history of RTS here" rip-off. Why are you guys playing sc2 instead of sc?
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basically the graphics of LoL just put me off and make it unplayable for me.
its like maplestory. good game but i stopped watching cartoons 18 years ago.
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Alright, lets say that creep deny is not possible for LoL. Why no tower denial?
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There are a lot more differences between dota and LoL than just denying.
Keep in mind all of this is in my own opinion:
Fog of war works completely differently, which can make for more interesting/cool jukes in dota
Dota spells typically have higher mana costs/longer cooldowns, but are also more powerful during the laning phase, which again, makes it more interesting.
Spells just have cooler/more fun design in dota, you'll never see an ability like spellsteal in LoL for example, even though it makes for amazing spectating and amazing clutch plays "DENDI STOLE RAVAGE! DENDI STOLE RAVAGE!", and such things.
Obviously I'm biased, but I honestly don't understand how anyone who has spent an equal amount of time on both games could ever pick LoL over dota.
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DotA/LoL/HoN... I've honestly never understood any of the interest/hype that these games produce. Boring to play, unbearably so to watch... seriously what's the deal?
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On October 26 2012 05:38 NeVeR wrote:
DotA/LoL/HoN... I've honestly never understood any of the interest/hype that these games produce. Boring to play, unbearably so to watch... seriously what's the deal?
you don't like the genre
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On October 26 2012 05:38 NeVeR wrote:
DotA/LoL/HoN... I've honestly never understood any of the interest/hype that these games produce. Boring to play, unbearably so to watch... seriously what's the deal?
That's just your opinion. Personally, I find dota to be one of the most (if not the most) entertaining game I've ever played, and TI2 is without a doubt in my mind the best esports event I've ever watched, by a fairly large margain.
Highlight video with some of the best moments from TI2
+ Show Spoiler +
It's true that the games probably just look like a huge clusterfuck to anyone who's not got any experience with them, but there's just so much depth and variety, and there's a possibility for some pretty sick plays, which will make you feel amazing if you manage to pull one off and it's a teamgame.
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On October 25 2012 07:34 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 07:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 25 2012 07:08 HorsemasterK wrote:On October 25 2012 06:51 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 25 2012 06:36 HorsemasterK wrote:
LoL is more accessible, both to play and to watch. MOBA games are pretty arcane to those who have not played them, and since League is the simplest/most played, its got the largest audience.
Also, there is this false assumption that more complex games make better sports. The rules of most popular sports aren't all that complicated, yet the strategies employed by professional teams are. Kids can play a pickup game of basketball; the rules are simple, but no one would suggest that since children play the sport, there cannot be skilled play. Yea, but the rules are simple for both games (arguably the same), it is still the strategies and tactics employed. You stated a couple of the ways DoTA is more complex in your OP, should I quote you? The only one that could be considered a rule is maybe denying, but I dont really view that as a rule. Why do I not see it as a rule? Because it makes logical sense to be able to deny. I was surprised I couldnt when I first played LoL... why did they restrict that? Because denying ruins the game for the majority of players. If you suck at the game (which the majority of players do) or just going up against a very nasty lane combo than not getting last hits is already bad enough, why discourage the player further by telling them "you fucking suck"?
Oh c'mon skyR that's like saying if you don't want to get your feelings hurt go play LoL!
But of course that would be another reason why LoL would be more welcoming than DotA. I've played both games and I can honestly say there's a lot less pressure to play in LoL than there is in DotA. There's many little complex aspects about DotA that can easily end up ruining your game and winning it. So as a new player you'll be on edge every game you get into, especially with a hero you do not know how to play.
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On October 26 2012 03:24 Canas wrote:
Obviously I'm biased, but I honestly don't understand how anyone who has spent an equal amount of time on both games could ever pick LoL over dota.
LoL is fun, DotA feels like serious business.
I have played more HoN than DotA 2 but it's quite the same about that feeling. And that's sad because I really liked HoN.
I'll not speak about skills and such since I almost have the opposite feeling, I love to spam a spell per second. And if DotA have some unique skills like the spellthief thing, LoL has some unique heroes too, you can't find in DotA. Just a matter of preferences, that's all.
Personally, I don't understand those guys who even try to make me feel bad about playing LoL. Some people have a lot of time to waste.  And funniest thing is I've played five games at most in the past two months.
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United States2822 Posts
There's a lot of helplessness that can result from the more open map and more aggressive early game in Dota that can turn people off from it. Soloing the hard lane against a defensive trilane and being at level 1 or 2 eight minutes into the game is not fun, and it's not an uncommon situation. It's not a very newbie friendly game, and some people understandably don't want to have to "try hard" to play a game. For some, video games are leisure or social activities, and they simply play the game that's more relaxing or that more of their friends play.
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That's kinda the point.
I played BW during 10 years for thousand of games because the game was fun, even playing WGTour/ICCup was fun. I met a lot of people who made me enjoy the game even more. SC II failed it for me because of BNet 0.2, for example. My friends will never last a day in DotA, and so do I.
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Just for reference: I only play LoL when I have friends online to play it with and I never play ranked.
I personally play LoL because that's the game all my friends play.
Why is it the game all my friends play? It's free and entertaining with a relatively low learning curve. DotA on other hand has a much steeper learning curve and is much more punishing for dying. This makes it a lot less fun to play in my opinion, and fun is really all I care about in games anymore. I know that DotA might be more fun if I were to spend the time to get good at it, but I just don't feel like putting the time in to a game that I know none of my friends will ever be good at.
I also find last hitting in DotA to be plain impossible due to the weird attack animations and the seemingly very tiny window of opportunity to last hit them before they die, so I probably get like a quarter or less than the gold a competent player would get from cs. This is a contrast to LoL where I get like 3/4ths or more of the gold from cs that a competent player depending on how focused I am, and that would probably be because last hitting is more familiar and it's much less stressful.
On the other hand, LoL was a fun time to learn how to play. It felt like I was actually accomplishing something when I did well and it didn't feel too bad to lose. In the few games of DotA I've won, it still wasn't fun. I didn't do very well and I did absolutely nothing for the team in all the DotA I've won, so it really didn't feel like I accomplished anything. I didn't get that "oh fuck yeah son!" feeling I get when I win a match of LoL, Starcraft, or any other online game I play. It just sort of felt empty, like I didn't really deserve it.
Also, the DotA community is much more hostile than the LoL community from my experience, which really does not help. + Show Spoiler +The HoN community is even more hostile though, but that isn't what this discussion is about.
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Also, the DotA community is much more hostile than the LoL community from my experience, which really does not help.
I don't know the DotA community, but the LoL community blows.
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EPT
