dealing with alcoholics

On September 19 2012 05:28 s.a.y wrote:
He might need some counseling. Any larger problems in his family or environment?

On September 19 2012 05:40 DanLee wrote:
Other than the puking I don't see a problem here.

On September 19 2012 05:42 Vega62a wrote:
High functioning alcoholism can be insidious. It's really easy to tell yourself, "Yeah I drink a lot, but I'm still in shape and not letting it impact the rest of my life." I was the same way. I was able to stop due to various other circumstances, but he needs to seek therapy or an AA meeting if he thinks his behavior is healthy.

That said, it has to come from him. You can't really make him do anything.

On September 19 2012 05:43 Chef wrote:
Wrote a big post of warning then realised I missed your last paragraph -.- Definitely stick by your word and move out if he doesn't ease up. Whether he keeps his job or not (eventually the problem will grow bigger) it's not your responsibility to take care of him. If he loses his job or whatever, let his parents and family deal with it. Alcoholics and addicts in general thrive on bleeding hearts. It gets worse when they learn people call alcoholism a disease and start thinking people aren't being understanding of their problem when really they are just being jerkoffs...

glgl. Sympathy for you more than for him.

PS: I would also suggest against advising him to AA. AA people are screwy and tend to relapse because they become obsessed with alcohol, never really recovering even if they haven't drank in months. I mean, they even admit they are in a constant process of recovery, rather than recovered... Talking to them feels more like talking to cult members.

On September 19 2012 05:43 Pulimuli wrote:


Im his best friend, if i tell him to quit his shit or ill move out i hope that will trigger him to realize that this won't work for him

PS: I would also suggest against advising him to AA. AA people are screwy and tend to relapse because they become obsessed with alcohol, never really recovering even if they haven't drank in months. I mean, they even admit they are in a constant process of recovery, rather than recovered... Talking to them feels more like talking to cult members.

On September 19 2012 06:15 Vega62a wrote:


That might work, or he might only become defensive and angry. Just be aware that some people will go to great lengths to justify their alcohol use. How he reacts probably will be a good indicator of how much help he needs.

Edit; Also,

This advice is awful. AA is one of the most successful and longest-running alcohol abuse programs in the country. It is absolutely a little cultish (highly christian in many cases), but it works. Saying that an alcoholic wouldn't be obsessed with alcohol if he weren't going to AA is absurd.

On September 19 2012 05:43 Pulimuli wrote:


Im his best friend, if i tell him to quit his shit or ill move out i hope that will trigger him to realize that this won't work for him

On September 19 2012 06:51 r00ty wrote:
Maybe he has some deeper problem causing the drinking. Be a good friend and tell him you are worried about him! Maybe there's something he needs to talk about, it can be that simple. There's other things to do than "stop or I gtfo", you want to keep his friendship don't you?
If he blocks everything and doesn't accept/want any help at all, just tell him how it is: You obviously don't want to see him go down, so you gotta move out/on. But even if it goes that way, check on him some time later and offer help again. In the end it's quite impossible to help people who don't want any help.


I have to agree with Chef 100%. We held some kind of anual AA Britain meeting in a hotel i worked some years ago and i gotta say, hardcore AA people are amongst the creepiest people i ever met. "Cult" is not an exaggeration.
Just read the "Twelve Steps": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-Step_Program. TL:DR: Only god can help you, you are powerless... If that's the only thing that helps you, go ahead. I think it's bullshit.

On September 19 2012 06:15 Vega62a wrote:


That might work, or he might only become defensive and angry. Just be aware that some people will go to great lengths to justify their alcohol use. How he reacts probably will be a good indicator of how much help he needs.

Edit; Also,

This advice is awful. AA is one of the most successful and longest-running alcohol abuse programs in the country. It is absolutely a little cultish (highly christian in many cases), but it works. Saying that an alcoholic wouldn't be obsessed with alcohol if he weren't going to AA is like saying a junkie only shoots up because there's nothing better to do.

The results of this study were significant. In terms of retention rate, AA fared by far the worst of any of the treatment groups. The group assigned to AA had a 68% dropout rate; the insight group had a 42% dropout rate; lay-RBT had a 40% dropout rate; and pro-RBT had a 46% dropout rate.

As for the number of rearrests for drunkenness during treatment, all treatment groups did significantly better than the control group, with the professionally led insight group performing better than the other treatment groups.

As for economic results, in terms of employment, AA fared the worst of all groups; and in regard to employment-seeking, AA and the control group did worst, while the insight group did the best.

In terms of drinking behavior, all treatment groups reported significantly decreased drinking at the outcome assessment: pro-RBT, 80% of participants; lay-RBT, 100%; insight, 92%; AA, 67%; whereas only 50% of the control group reported decreased drinking. And, "at outcome, there were no significant differences in drinking behavior between [the lay-RBT, AA, and control] groups with regard to the number reporting abstinence" (p. 104).

In regard to binging behavior, "The mean number of reported binges was significantly greater (p = .004) for the AA group (2.37 in past 3 months) in contrast to both the control (0.56) and lay-RBT group (0.26). In this analysis, AA was [over 4] times [more] likely to binge than the control [group] and nine times more likely than the lay-RBT [group]. The AA average was 2.4 binges in the last 3 months since outcome" (p. 105).

lthough AA plays an extremely important part [in] a community's response to alcoholism in terms of education and treatment, it seems to have a definite but delimited "place in the sun." . . . AA seems to have definite limitations of social class, ideology, flexibility of adopting new techniques, and the type of personality it appeals to. Our study suggests further confirmation of this in our severe dropout rate from this form of treatment. It is probable, as Ditman et al.'s (1967) work suggests and ours confirms, that AA is just not effective as a coerced treatment with municipal court offenders. (Brandsma et al., 1980, p. 84, emphasis added)

One very possible reason for the increase in binging is the emphasis in AA upon inevitable loss of control after even one drink, as codified in the AA slogan, "one drink, one drunk." (As we saw in Chapter 1, this assertion is not true, except to the extent that drinkers believe it to be true.) What likely happens is that for those exposed to AA, this inevitable-loss-of control belief becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, when a true-believing AA member slips and has a drink, or even eats a rum ball or ingests a bit of mouthwash containing alcohol, he or she could be provoked to embark on a full-bore binge. Given this, one can't help but be alarmed at the common practice of coercing DUI defendants into AA attendance and 12-step treatment.

As regards new member dropout rate, all five surveys were in close agreement. Averaging their results, the Comments document graphs the "% of those coming to AA within the first year that have remained the indicated number of months." At one month, the "% of those . . . that have remained" is 19%; at 3 months, 10%; and at 12 months, 5% (Alcoholics Anonymous, n.d., p. 12, Figure C-1).3 This gives AA a 5% success rate at the one-year point if success is simply defined as continuing AA membership (in what is supposed to be a program for life).

One finding shines through all of these complicated results: the most beneficial outcomes to drug and alcohol problems occur with minimal treatments, or else depend primarily on the characteristics and motivation of the patient, rather than on any specific treatment. Not only is 12-step treatment unjustified, but hardly any formal treatment seems to be necessary if drug and alcohol abusers become properly involved in defining and directing their own efforts toward change. That is, they'll likely succeed if they want to change, and if they have support in their efforts to change.

On September 19 2012 08:23 r00ty wrote:


Are you feeling offended somehow? In the end, what i wrote is what AA is about and i don't think it's a healthy way to go: There're reasons for substance abuse most of the time and it's NOT you being weak, only higher powers being able to save you.

I did not come here to argue. I came to give advise to someone and unfortunately, i speak from experience. Honestly i had some problems with substance abuse myself and some of my friends had even heavier problems. I could help some of them, others i couldn't unfortunately. What's your experience?

A good, trustable therapist (hard to find) is the way to go, if the addiction takes over. Definately not the AA imo. But, what do i know, i'm just a psychology student, not a preacher.

OP: You know your friend the best, be careful how to approach him. If he has a bad phase, he needs you. If he has a serious addiction problem he needs a therapist, which can be hard to sell... Good luck to you and him!

On September 19 2012 08:24 Chef wrote:

The studies that have been performed on the efficacy of AA have not been as generous as you. If you are intelligent enough to know about control factors and the real meaning of data, this might be some interesting reading for you: http://www.morerevealed.com/library/resist/r_chap_2.htm

If you google about the effectiveness of AA, you'll get plenty of anecdotes and journalists who don't know anything quoting studies they didn't read, but if you have access to the actual studies (most universities have excellent online resources to scholarly journals if you are a student), you'll find the tragic truth is that AA causes more damage. It is better to practice self-discipline and to believe in the power of your autonomy than to act powerless and make your drinking episodes that much more extreme. Many, many young people go thru a phase where they drink excessively and too often and binge, and eventually they learn to moderate themselves and be responsible. I've found with people who get obsessed about the idea of alcohol, is that they think after they've had a drink it's not them anymore and they can't say no...

I also think the comparison to heroin is incredibly childish. Alcohol and heroin are not even remotely similar. Many, many adults are very capable of moderating their drinking, and the same can not be said about heroin users.

Here's a fun quote from the Brandsma Study (ctrl + f on the page to search the term if you want to read more ;p)



The control group being of course the zero treatment group. Keeping in mind that some of these people were coerced to do this program (by court or by referral), so they may not have even been motivated to stop. All of the methods would have at least been preaching the importance of quitting, so they have that edge over alcoholics who didn't already think they wanted to quit. You might note that my argument about binging is consistent with the study -.-;;


In other words, unless the friend already wants to go to AA, it's going to be even less effective than it already is. In terms of advising him to get treatment at all, this is a different topic. But AA is unscientific and inflexible. It is popular, but it is not driven by logic, only by faith and belief...


The more I read this study the more I like it, because it's basically what I've determined in my past research.. There are alcoholics in AA who worry tremendously about using listerine and cough medicine, and if they find out after the fact that there is alcohol in something they've consumed, they end up drinking a bottle of wine too


I could pretty much quote this all day. This info is from AA's own statistical analysis of their membership.

I attribute the popularity of AA as the go-to response for people who have no idea what they're talking about to the fact that it is a catchy kind of title, it appeals to the idea of privacy (although in actuality it isn't very anonymous), and it's easy to remember. It often heard of in court cases (or at least those on TV and movies) since it is Christian and one of the first efforts of its kind to deal with the addiction. The alterantive methods are much harder to remember, so people just name AA as the first to pop into their head because it is the most obvious... But I think I've demonstrated that there is contending data about its effectiveness ;p

edit: Basically every other paragraph of this work has interesting data, but the take home message at the end (which is not data, but simply the authors thought's) reflects pretty well my position about alcoholism:



Essentially a person has to want to quit for themselves, a person has to have an environment which allows them to do this, and a person is better offer recieving fewer dogmas and obsessing less about programs and treatment. Not to say that a little advice and talking to a counsellor won't help and set them on the right track, but the road is theirs to pave ;p I hope that gives some interesting food for thought for the OP and maybe something he can show his friend too.

On September 19 2012 19:16 gameguard wrote:
if it doesnt affect his work, i dont really see a problem other than eventual health issues. But then again, drinking everyday probably does affect his productivity :0

On September 19 2012 13:20 beachbeachy wrote:


I've never met a single person who got clean and sober and managed to enjoy life without some sort of spiritual maintenance. AA/NA DO WORK for people where nothing else does and telling the OP that it doesn't because of your bias/psychological approach is unfair.