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On September 12 2012 12:37 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches. Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable
Its orange and apples I agree. But the point is its about conditioning and no one of our top pro sc2 players will ever be in top form considering the amount of tournament and matches they has to play. So my point is every team could have said what you said when one of there players lose.
What next? "Sorry my player only lost because he didn't practise ZvZ for a week"
You see where I'm going Ken?
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On September 12 2012 12:49 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:37 Kennigit wrote:On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches. Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable Its orange and apples I agree but the point is its about conditioning and no one of our top pro sc2 players will ever be in top form considering the amount of tournament and matches they has to play. So my point is every team could say what you said when one of the players lose. What next? "Sorry my player only lost because he didn't practise ZvZ for a week"You see where I'm going Ken?
You keep comparing controllable factors to uncontrollable ones.
Unless you're suggesting EG is incontrol of time, and used that power to outplay liquid, it's not relevant.
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On September 12 2012 12:50 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:49 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:37 Kennigit wrote:On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches. Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable Its orange and apples I agree but the point is its about conditioning and no one of our top pro sc2 players will ever be in top form considering the amount of tournament and matches they has to play. So my point is every team could say what you said when one of the players lose. What next? "Sorry my player only lost because he didn't practise ZvZ for a week"You see where I'm going Ken? You keep comparing controllable factors to uncontrollable ones. Unless you're suggesting EG is incontrol of time, and used that power to outplay liquid, it's not relevant.
It is controllable factor because the TL coaches knew it. So they either ignored the issue and said well they are OK to play, or its an excuse.
So don't say its not a controllable factor
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I can understand that you're disappointed in the loss and that players "could" have played better, but it's always been up to the players and the teams to meet the expectations of the event. If you claim you weren't ready, then that is your fault. Make preparations accordingly or don't go at all. It just means that the tournament isn't "worth enough" to you and your players to be able to focus your attention on it and make it a priority over things like GSL/OSL. It's becoming somewhat of a problem having too many tournaments, but I doubt you'd hear of any athlete complaining because their schedule was tied up in another game.
The way tournaments are won are by who plays better on that day. Eventually a tournament does inevitably come down to a winner's format, and we can't just wait for everyone to have perfect conditions.
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Seems like the format just doesn't work particularly well for online leagues. I imagine that's especially true for teams like EG and Liquid that at any given time could be all over the place and make scheduling a difficult factor.
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fuck you kennigit. if hero is going to win like a hero or die like a hero, he deserves to eat like a hero!
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:49 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:37 Kennigit wrote:On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches. Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable Its orange and apples I agree. But the point is its about conditioning and no one of our top pro sc2 players will ever be in top form considering the amount of tournament and matches they has to play. So my point is every team could have said what you said when one of there players lose. What next? "Sorry my player only lost because he didn't practise ZvZ for a week"You see where I'm going Ken?
I don't think you are using good examples. I'm not talking about not having practiced enough or you didn't eat breakfast so you wont play well. The point is that because players are spread around the world, winners league format forces certain players to play in a weakened state, while their opponent is in a more favorable state.
On September 12 2012 12:53 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:50 Dfgj wrote:On September 12 2012 12:49 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:37 Kennigit wrote:On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches. Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable Its orange and apples I agree but the point is its about conditioning and no one of our top pro sc2 players will ever be in top form considering the amount of tournament and matches they has to play. So my point is every team could say what you said when one of the players lose. What next? "Sorry my player only lost because he didn't practise ZvZ for a week"You see where I'm going Ken? You keep comparing controllable factors to uncontrollable ones. Unless you're suggesting EG is incontrol of time, and used that power to outplay liquid, it's not relevant. It is controllable factor because the TL coaches knew it. So they either ignored the issue and said well they are OK to play, or its an excuse. So don't say its not a controllable factor
Of course all teams know in advance, my point is that even though it's something all teams have to deal with, it's really not good for any player's odds to be playing at bad hours while his opponent is in a good time zone. The winners league format FORCES teams to deal with it, while better formats exist.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:54 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I can understand that you're disappointed in the loss and that players "could" have played better, but it's always been up to the players and the teams to meet the expectations of the event. If you claim you weren't ready, then that is your fault. Make preparations accordingly or don't go at all. It just means that the tournament isn't "worth enough" to you and your players to be able to focus your attention on it and make it a priority over things like GSL/OSL. It's becoming somewhat of a problem having too many tournaments, but I doubt you'd hear of any athlete complaining because their schedule was tied up in another game.
The way tournaments are won are by who plays better on that day. Eventually a tournament does inevitably come down to a winner's format, and we can't just wait for everyone to have perfect conditions.
It doesn't have much to do with being disappointed in the loss - the format and timings have benefited TL a lot. As i pointed out it probably benefited us when we played JYP and Puma. I don't think you can compare timings/scheduling variance to GSL or OSL because those players are in the same room together. You can't really prepare for the fact that your player may be in a good time zone and then your opponent choses someone in a bad time zone (or visa versa, in the WL format).
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Why did you choose HerO over say Ret? He is on a better timezone and up against Stephanos weakest matchup. Wouldnt it have been a better way to deal with the timezone issues?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 13:12 Archvil3 wrote:
Why did you choose HerO over say Ret? He is on a better timezone and up against Stephanos weakest matchup. Wouldnt it have been a better way to deal with the timezone issues?
Like i said in the OP, i'm not a player manager. I have nothing to do with scheduling or picking who to field. I think ideally teams shouldn't even have to consider who is in a better time zone - there are lots of formats that allow for this (every format that is not winners league).
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Seems what you needed was more options to play and you're making excuses. (This is just my opinion)
It's partially up to the team to make sure every player is in tip-top shape, and then the rest of that falls on the individual player.
In that case, someone like Nony if he was in form and practising could of been a better person to pick in that team league.
IMO he isn't as good as Hero, but the time zone would suit him far more where he can play at his peak, rather than Hero playing when he's exhausted from Code S.
You can never get around scheduling, but you can have multiple options instead where the entire Liquid roster is ready to play and in tip top shape
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 13:18 RicochetSEA wrote:
Seems what you needed was more options to play and you're making excuses. (This is just my opinion)
It's partially up to the team to make sure every player is in tip-top shape.
The nature of the winners league format is that your entire line up has to sit there for hours while the set is played in case you get called up. All players sit in their respective teams skype calls to decide who is going out next. This works great if you are are all in a studio at 1pm where you are on an even playing field.
Saying "make sure every player is in tip-top shape" doesn't really hold water when a 1pm start for Sheth or Demuslim is a 1am start for Puma or JYP or Hero - now stay up for the next 4 hours in case you get called out as the ace. Because of the all kill format you can't just "prepare". You have to sit and wait for hours and that could be completely in your favor, or working against you as you pray it ends sooner so you can go sleep.
The longer the set goes, the better it is for players in the west (usually).
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I'd prefer if online team leagues were 4xbo1 with ace match, and LAN was all kill. Makes sense for scheduling.
I don't disagree with you Kennigit but funny if the IPL result was reversed and an EG member wrote this, imagine the shit they would get :/ .
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 13:31 schmutttt wrote:
I don't disagree with you Kennigit but funny if the IPL result was reversed and an EG member wrote this, imagine the shit they would get :/ .
I can't really defend against the criticism that i wouldn't post about this if we won, and i think it's a fair one. I think if we discuss it in 3 weeks though it's not really relevant any more and i have to just hope that some % of fans will look beyond whatever bias they see in my thoughts and think about the issue i'm trying to discuss.
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Seems like a 0ev problem. Sometimes it will benefit you, sometimes it won't. The league comes up with a format, and you can either participate or not. As far as for future IPL team leagues, suggestions and changes can be made (although it's ultimately up to them, and you can either participate or not). The issue is a real issue with real problems, but the timing is convenient. Perhaps wait a couple of days next time.
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Canada11477 Posts
I really am not a fan of the all-kill format. I like the head games of when coaches are trying to decide who to send out against who. It seems to me, the different roles in a team come much more into play. Specialist players to knock out x player or race, Ace player to bring the team home, etc.
Rather than we'll just send out our most dominant player and you try and find someone to beat him. It just doesn't seem that interesting to me.
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You should add an iptl spoiler tag or something, these games were just played and the vods were just uploaded I don't think that's too much to ask
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Anyone who thinks Kennigit is just saying this because his team lost and he's bitching is vastly underestimating his critical reasoning ability... let's not forget that TL has benefited from the all-kill format just a tiny tiny bit
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A really great assessment and it's also very interesting to hear about what times the players played at..
As for your question, I don't think there is any question that most viewers enjoy the entertainment value of an all-kill format, you yourself must admit the drama/excitement of Taeja performing numerous kill-streaks to narrowly advance TL in the last IPTL, it's undeniably exciting to watch at times, but it's also obviously subject to larger amounts of variance compared to tournaments that use a format similar to EGMC.
For the reasons you said in your post I think all-kill format is better suited for offline events (GSTL, etc.). Much the suspense and drama is around seeing the team and the coach decide on the spot who is going out..that moment where you can physically see the player that gets up to walk to the booth and play. It feels like a true team event, everyone is there in their uniforms and anyone could get up to play at any given moment. The game outside the game is what is exciting to watch. That same effect is not had online in my opinion, aside from the obvious not being able to see the whole team in one place going over strategies and deciding on who to put out and what maps to choose there is some other reasons I think the all-kill format is inferior in an online tournament setting. For starters, as you said in your post it doesn't all happen in succession, there could be hours or even a day between matches depending on what works, it really takes away from the experience for the players/teams of being put on the spot to choose the best player and map for that circumstance. Secondly, the viewers and most of the time even the casters don't know who is actually being chosen from to play, is Taeja going to play or is he busy preparing for GSL? Is Stephano going to play or is he on vacation ?
The alternative method leads to well prepared for bo3 matches which most people argue leads to more quality games and obviously less variance as it's not just a best of 1 on a map potentially chosen for a snipe or one off build. I really like both formats but I think online events should stick to the format that leads to less variance, for a live event I really don't think that anything comes close to the level of excitement provided by a down to the wire all-kill format match between 2 teams, especially when there is a lot on the line.
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I have always preferred proleague format of clan wars, 4 1v1's and an ace match if tied. I don't mind the bo3 4 1v1's either, but all kill isn't that exciting to me.
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EPT
