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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Since some fans believe that addressing this after a match is making excuses, i'll take it to my blog. I write this as a nerd with a big mouth - i have nothing to do with player scheduling, line up decisions, league management etc.
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So without taking too much away from the fact that Stephano won, i'll address a lot of the comments about Taeja and Hero's performance/making mistakes. These two games were played between 2:30 and 3:30am korean time - hero had just played his code s matches (at around 5pm) then came home to wait for this. Scheduling matches internationally fucking sucks - its pretty common that you can be in worse or better condition that your opponent just based on scheduling (it was about 9pm EU, 3pm US when stephano/taeja played, and probably 230pm US/130am KR when Sheth played). Iirc we had basically hit the limit for delaying this set, so delaying the games wasn't really an option.
Robin (our player manager), disagrees with me that the timing affected either Taeja or Hero's performance (that they are on odd sleeping patterns), but i think there has to be some value to the idea that if your physical and mental condition isn't at it's peak, you aren't going to play as well as you can.
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
JYP and Puma both had to play under the same conditions so it's possible that we could have lost earlier (5-2/5-3) if it was in their favor (Sheth played from US). Teams play with the idea that whatever time you agree on is the time, and you just deal with the unfortunate consequences of having your players spread all around the world. It's kind of like in the MMA world where you never really come into a fight without some bumps, bruises,dehydration - i think a lot of fans just assume everyone is always at 100%.
Because of the IPTL winner-stays format, you cant just schedule certain matches for better timing. There's not an optimal solution for timings right now. Ideally your players are in the best possible mental condition when they play hard matches due to the cerebral nature of SC2...it's just not as feasible as we'd like.
Until we have all players in central locations or some better solution you just have to factor in more variance in performance/decision making for all your favorite players.
It leads me to question if a winner-stays format is really the best for players in the long run considering they are all spread around. EGMC is a 4xBo3 with a Bo3 Ace match which is a different dynamic for predicting and sniping, but also allows for scheduling that is a bit more forgiving (robin can probably give better details on this).
I'm interested to know if you think an all-kill format where more play variance exists is more "fun" or "interesting" to watch than a 4xBo3 that players can prep/schedule for.
 
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Canada13389 Posts
I prefer set schedules if it creates better games. Its also much more interesting to watch a proleague style format than an all kill one, in my opinion. You get more varied games, you get a different kind of drama as well. The side benefit is that scheduling isnt as big a problem it seems like based on the blog here.
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Certainly a fair assessment.
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i think a lot of fans just assume everyone is always at 100%.
I think most fans and viewers just assume that there are issues such as poor scheduling/conflicting times, but 1. there's no real way around it 100% and 2. These circumstances don't play an impact so huge that it completely dictates if someone wins or not. When you see players like MC be a bit sloppy, viewers pick up on this and run through the list of reasonings (and you see this on Reddit).
It leads me to question if a winner-stays format is really the best for players in the long run considering they are all spread around.
Nope, it ain't. But it's about the viewers. All-kills and reverse all-kills and kill-streaks make a great story and headline.
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Different tournament formats benefit different team line ups in different situations. If your team has an extremely hot ace, then obviously you prefer an all kill format. If your team is solid all around and lacks a clear dominating ace, then you'll probably want to avoid that kind of momentum based format.
I think there is a place for both, just like there is a place for the GSL (prep/schedule) and MLG (marathon run, little to no prep). They test different skillsets and both provide interesting viewing and storylines.
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I believe the all-kill format is much better for intensity and it is also easier to follow story-wise. Like getting one player to snipe another player with a specific build on a specific map adds another layer of depth to the player lineups/orders which isn't really present in the 4xBo3 format.
The only team league I hold in high esteem anyway is GSTL or maybe proleague because of the issues you mentioned. Everyone is playing in a lan environment on an equal playing field. All online cup results can never truly be taken seriously in the current state that we are in
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Canada1637 Posts
I'd prefer 4xBO1, the 4 hour long broadcasts from multiple leagues every night is just exhausting.
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I'm bored as fuck of winners format and knockout tournaments, there's a reason standard format and round robin was the majority of a proleague season
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:16 Adebisi wrote:
I'd prefer 4xBO1, the 4 hour long broadcasts from multiple leagues every night is just exhausting.
This too! I don't have the energy to stay up for this shit hahaha.
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Canada13389 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:18 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:16 Adebisi wrote:
I'd prefer 4xBO1, the 4 hour long broadcasts from multiple leagues every night is just exhausting. This too! I don't have the energy to stay up for this shit hahaha.
Oh god yes. I've stopped watching a lot lately because I just don't have the time. I can't even watch GSL vods most of the time since its a BO series I gotta pick and choose who I watch and why
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:16 Adebisi wrote:
I'd prefer 4xBO1, the 4 hour long broadcasts from multiple leagues every night is just exhausting.
Yeah. You have to be not in education, employment, or training to follow SC2 leagues. I know a lot of people in rl that stopped watching SC2.
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I really wish the SC2 scene didn't grow up on the All-Kill format. There is a lot of storyline and strategy to a standard proleague/EGMC format and it really hurts to see people say that All-kill format is more "competitive" or has more appeal. I'm actually getting pretty tired of an all-kill format. The community atm seems to have a fetish for these marathon sessions.
On September 12 2012 12:18 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:16 Adebisi wrote:
I'd prefer 4xBO1, the 4 hour long broadcasts from multiple leagues every night is just exhausting. This too! I don't have the energy to stay up for this shit hahaha.
I tried watching EGMC and I stopped solely because of this. I think they're afraid its not "competitive" if its all Bo1's, but proleague did this for years and showed its extremely viable for team formats.
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Well-said. I personally really couldn't find fault with the way you were addressing it. A lot of people, I felt, just came across as overwhelmingly negative nancies, it was almost sort of weird that you had to defend yourself just for writing about the fact of the matter.
And yeah, sometimes those series can last waaaay too long ;_;
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:23 Aerisky wrote:
It was almost sort of weird that you had to defend yourself just for writing about the fact of the matter.
You should see our team chat right now ;D
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I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias.
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Agreed with alot of people above, another thing that pisses me off people's constant insistence that you need like a fucking bo15 grand final to make sure 100% that the best player wins, is not how sc works, BO5 IS FINE. If you require a bazillion games to separate people then maybe the game is at fault because you can't distance yourself from the rest as supreme gosu.
Same for Bo1 teamleague, the whole point is that you can predict someone on a map and snipe them, if you then have to play two more maps against that player, sniping becomes next to impossible. AK format bores me because it is often so straightforward, especially when losing team picks the next map (srsly that is the dumbest rule ever) as that just makes the entire match a snipe fest that doesn't actually require any thought on the coaches part and he could draw a flowchart before the match for players to follow and go out and get hammered at a bar instead
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On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias.
Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite.
Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches.
Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable
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On September 12 2012 12:24 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:23 Aerisky wrote:
It was almost sort of weird that you had to defend yourself just for writing about the fact of the matter.
You should see our team chat right now ;D
D'awww. ><
LOL Lyter. Who says the British and the Americans are relegated only to overstatement and understatement respectively? 
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On September 12 2012 12:37 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches. Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable
Its orange and apples I agree. But the point is its about conditioning and no one of our top pro sc2 players will ever be in top form considering the amount of tournament and matches they has to play. So my point is every team could have said what you said when one of there players lose.
What next? "Sorry my player only lost because he didn't practise ZvZ for a week"
You see where I'm going Ken?
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On September 12 2012 12:49 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:37 Kennigit wrote:On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches. Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable Its orange and apples I agree but the point is its about conditioning and no one of our top pro sc2 players will ever be in top form considering the amount of tournament and matches they has to play. So my point is every team could say what you said when one of the players lose. What next? "Sorry my player only lost because he didn't practise ZvZ for a week"You see where I'm going Ken?
You keep comparing controllable factors to uncontrollable ones.
Unless you're suggesting EG is incontrol of time, and used that power to outplay liquid, it's not relevant.
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On September 12 2012 12:50 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:49 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:37 Kennigit wrote:On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches. Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable Its orange and apples I agree but the point is its about conditioning and no one of our top pro sc2 players will ever be in top form considering the amount of tournament and matches they has to play. So my point is every team could say what you said when one of the players lose. What next? "Sorry my player only lost because he didn't practise ZvZ for a week"You see where I'm going Ken? You keep comparing controllable factors to uncontrollable ones. Unless you're suggesting EG is incontrol of time, and used that power to outplay liquid, it's not relevant.
It is controllable factor because the TL coaches knew it. So they either ignored the issue and said well they are OK to play, or its an excuse.
So don't say its not a controllable factor
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I can understand that you're disappointed in the loss and that players "could" have played better, but it's always been up to the players and the teams to meet the expectations of the event. If you claim you weren't ready, then that is your fault. Make preparations accordingly or don't go at all. It just means that the tournament isn't "worth enough" to you and your players to be able to focus your attention on it and make it a priority over things like GSL/OSL. It's becoming somewhat of a problem having too many tournaments, but I doubt you'd hear of any athlete complaining because their schedule was tied up in another game.
The way tournaments are won are by who plays better on that day. Eventually a tournament does inevitably come down to a winner's format, and we can't just wait for everyone to have perfect conditions.
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Seems like the format just doesn't work particularly well for online leagues. I imagine that's especially true for teams like EG and Liquid that at any given time could be all over the place and make scheduling a difficult factor.
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fuck you kennigit. if hero is going to win like a hero or die like a hero, he deserves to eat like a hero!
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:49 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:37 Kennigit wrote:On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches. Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable Its orange and apples I agree. But the point is its about conditioning and no one of our top pro sc2 players will ever be in top form considering the amount of tournament and matches they has to play. So my point is every team could have said what you said when one of there players lose. What next? "Sorry my player only lost because he didn't practise ZvZ for a week"You see where I'm going Ken?
I don't think you are using good examples. I'm not talking about not having practiced enough or you didn't eat breakfast so you wont play well. The point is that because players are spread around the world, winners league format forces certain players to play in a weakened state, while their opponent is in a more favorable state.
On September 12 2012 12:53 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:50 Dfgj wrote:On September 12 2012 12:49 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:37 Kennigit wrote:On September 12 2012 12:33 Benjamin99 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:25 Brosy wrote:
I agree with Kennigit. International team leagues that are all-kill format are disadvantagous to one group in a timezone.
I also prefer the proleague format but thats just a personal bias. Maybe but you forgetting some other players has to deal with drunkenness and getting arrested. You can always find something in every player. Is the coaches job to take the players with the best conditions. So yea Ken should just have been quite. Because its either an excuse or else its incompetence from the coaches. Comparing a player being too drunk/hungover to his inability to manipulate space-time to play at a time that suits him better. Seems reasonable Its orange and apples I agree but the point is its about conditioning and no one of our top pro sc2 players will ever be in top form considering the amount of tournament and matches they has to play. So my point is every team could say what you said when one of the players lose. What next? "Sorry my player only lost because he didn't practise ZvZ for a week"You see where I'm going Ken? You keep comparing controllable factors to uncontrollable ones. Unless you're suggesting EG is incontrol of time, and used that power to outplay liquid, it's not relevant. It is controllable factor because the TL coaches knew it. So they either ignored the issue and said well they are OK to play, or its an excuse. So don't say its not a controllable factor
Of course all teams know in advance, my point is that even though it's something all teams have to deal with, it's really not good for any player's odds to be playing at bad hours while his opponent is in a good time zone. The winners league format FORCES teams to deal with it, while better formats exist.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:54 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I can understand that you're disappointed in the loss and that players "could" have played better, but it's always been up to the players and the teams to meet the expectations of the event. If you claim you weren't ready, then that is your fault. Make preparations accordingly or don't go at all. It just means that the tournament isn't "worth enough" to you and your players to be able to focus your attention on it and make it a priority over things like GSL/OSL. It's becoming somewhat of a problem having too many tournaments, but I doubt you'd hear of any athlete complaining because their schedule was tied up in another game.
The way tournaments are won are by who plays better on that day. Eventually a tournament does inevitably come down to a winner's format, and we can't just wait for everyone to have perfect conditions.
It doesn't have much to do with being disappointed in the loss - the format and timings have benefited TL a lot. As i pointed out it probably benefited us when we played JYP and Puma. I don't think you can compare timings/scheduling variance to GSL or OSL because those players are in the same room together. You can't really prepare for the fact that your player may be in a good time zone and then your opponent choses someone in a bad time zone (or visa versa, in the WL format).
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Why did you choose HerO over say Ret? He is on a better timezone and up against Stephanos weakest matchup. Wouldnt it have been a better way to deal with the timezone issues?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 13:12 Archvil3 wrote:
Why did you choose HerO over say Ret? He is on a better timezone and up against Stephanos weakest matchup. Wouldnt it have been a better way to deal with the timezone issues?
Like i said in the OP, i'm not a player manager. I have nothing to do with scheduling or picking who to field. I think ideally teams shouldn't even have to consider who is in a better time zone - there are lots of formats that allow for this (every format that is not winners league).
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Seems what you needed was more options to play and you're making excuses. (This is just my opinion)
It's partially up to the team to make sure every player is in tip-top shape, and then the rest of that falls on the individual player.
In that case, someone like Nony if he was in form and practising could of been a better person to pick in that team league.
IMO he isn't as good as Hero, but the time zone would suit him far more where he can play at his peak, rather than Hero playing when he's exhausted from Code S.
You can never get around scheduling, but you can have multiple options instead where the entire Liquid roster is ready to play and in tip top shape
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 13:18 RicochetSEA wrote:
Seems what you needed was more options to play and you're making excuses. (This is just my opinion)
It's partially up to the team to make sure every player is in tip-top shape.
The nature of the winners league format is that your entire line up has to sit there for hours while the set is played in case you get called up. All players sit in their respective teams skype calls to decide who is going out next. This works great if you are are all in a studio at 1pm where you are on an even playing field.
Saying "make sure every player is in tip-top shape" doesn't really hold water when a 1pm start for Sheth or Demuslim is a 1am start for Puma or JYP or Hero - now stay up for the next 4 hours in case you get called out as the ace. Because of the all kill format you can't just "prepare". You have to sit and wait for hours and that could be completely in your favor, or working against you as you pray it ends sooner so you can go sleep.
The longer the set goes, the better it is for players in the west (usually).
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I'd prefer if online team leagues were 4xbo1 with ace match, and LAN was all kill. Makes sense for scheduling.
I don't disagree with you Kennigit but funny if the IPL result was reversed and an EG member wrote this, imagine the shit they would get :/ .
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 12 2012 13:31 schmutttt wrote:
I don't disagree with you Kennigit but funny if the IPL result was reversed and an EG member wrote this, imagine the shit they would get :/ .
I can't really defend against the criticism that i wouldn't post about this if we won, and i think it's a fair one. I think if we discuss it in 3 weeks though it's not really relevant any more and i have to just hope that some % of fans will look beyond whatever bias they see in my thoughts and think about the issue i'm trying to discuss.
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Seems like a 0ev problem. Sometimes it will benefit you, sometimes it won't. The league comes up with a format, and you can either participate or not. As far as for future IPL team leagues, suggestions and changes can be made (although it's ultimately up to them, and you can either participate or not). The issue is a real issue with real problems, but the timing is convenient. Perhaps wait a couple of days next time.
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Canada11349 Posts
I really am not a fan of the all-kill format. I like the head games of when coaches are trying to decide who to send out against who. It seems to me, the different roles in a team come much more into play. Specialist players to knock out x player or race, Ace player to bring the team home, etc.
Rather than we'll just send out our most dominant player and you try and find someone to beat him. It just doesn't seem that interesting to me.
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You should add an iptl spoiler tag or something, these games were just played and the vods were just uploaded I don't think that's too much to ask
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Anyone who thinks Kennigit is just saying this because his team lost and he's bitching is vastly underestimating his critical reasoning ability... let's not forget that TL has benefited from the all-kill format just a tiny tiny bit
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A really great assessment and it's also very interesting to hear about what times the players played at..
As for your question, I don't think there is any question that most viewers enjoy the entertainment value of an all-kill format, you yourself must admit the drama/excitement of Taeja performing numerous kill-streaks to narrowly advance TL in the last IPTL, it's undeniably exciting to watch at times, but it's also obviously subject to larger amounts of variance compared to tournaments that use a format similar to EGMC.
For the reasons you said in your post I think all-kill format is better suited for offline events (GSTL, etc.). Much the suspense and drama is around seeing the team and the coach decide on the spot who is going out..that moment where you can physically see the player that gets up to walk to the booth and play. It feels like a true team event, everyone is there in their uniforms and anyone could get up to play at any given moment. The game outside the game is what is exciting to watch. That same effect is not had online in my opinion, aside from the obvious not being able to see the whole team in one place going over strategies and deciding on who to put out and what maps to choose there is some other reasons I think the all-kill format is inferior in an online tournament setting. For starters, as you said in your post it doesn't all happen in succession, there could be hours or even a day between matches depending on what works, it really takes away from the experience for the players/teams of being put on the spot to choose the best player and map for that circumstance. Secondly, the viewers and most of the time even the casters don't know who is actually being chosen from to play, is Taeja going to play or is he busy preparing for GSL? Is Stephano going to play or is he on vacation ?
The alternative method leads to well prepared for bo3 matches which most people argue leads to more quality games and obviously less variance as it's not just a best of 1 on a map potentially chosen for a snipe or one off build. I really like both formats but I think online events should stick to the format that leads to less variance, for a live event I really don't think that anything comes close to the level of excitement provided by a down to the wire all-kill format match between 2 teams, especially when there is a lot on the line.
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I have always preferred proleague format of clan wars, 4 1v1's and an ace match if tied. I don't mind the bo3 4 1v1's either, but all kill isn't that exciting to me.
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I don't mind the all kill format for leagues - however, I think it should be used sparingly (I.E. proleague uses it only once in awhile and not every season afaik?). It is undeniable that the all-kill format is more exciting for spectators, the potential for an unsung hero to come and all-kill the other team, or for a reverse all-kill presents edge-of-your-seat excitement that other league formats can't do in the same way. BUT that being said, this is best served sparingly. There is a problem with over-saturation and this format is particularly susceptible to it, in my opinion. Consider TaeJa's run in IPL TAC3. While his streak was remarkable, I think many viewers grew tired of watching Team TaeJa win every week, and it almost detracted from the accomplishment that he strung together. These potentially life altering moments (all kills, reverse all kills, etc) are a lot cooler if they only happen once every few months, or as a special annual event, as opposed to it being something that can be witnessed on an almost daily basis for 2-3 months.
The next issue, more readily addressing Kennigit's point is of player conditions. I agree that the all-kill format is absolutely not ideal for an online setting. More so than anything, forcing an entire team to be online for 4-5 hour blocks when you're dealing with an international community is rough. Ultimately though, coming from a league's perspective, you have to ask yourself what your preference is.
Do your viewers notice or care, for example, that players aren't playing at 100% optimal capacity? Unfortunately, they don't. While we as behind the scenes guys (team managers, pro players, etc) realize that "HerO and TaeJa might have played this match at 50% capacity due to fatigue, etc" and the game wasn't as high a level it could have been if all players involved were playing in deal circumstances, the viewers don't know enough about the game to be able to differentiate between HerO playing at 50% or 100% capacity. For the average viewer, HerO is a god, as is TaeJa, and most other pro players. Sure it is common practice to ridicule and flame players for having bad games, but the reality is at the level Kennigit is referring to, viewers really can't tell the difference.
That may mean that the league is not as competitive as it could be if all the players are playing at full capacity, but then again, viewers can't tell the difference. Why should an online tournament then, care? Again unfortunately, the goal of organizations (i.e. businesses) is to try to put out the best product possible and make money. If it is easier and more cost efficient to run an event in which players often are forced to play at inconvenient times, and it isn't detracting from viewership (the way events like IPL/NASL want to make money), then what incentive do these organizations have to introduce a system that puts better conditions on players.
From the perspective of a team manager (which I am), it sucks. From the perspective of a league organizer (which I also am), it's just unfortunate.
I do agree that the more standard EGMC format is better. It allows more flexibility for scheduling. But the exciting storylines that an all-kill format can bring about aren't as readily apparent. Especially when you have this format, and replay casting, games are often not necessarily played in order, which defeats a lot of the potential thrill. You could have an awesome situation in which a team starts off 0-2, then wins the next 2 matches to force an ace. Knowing that all the games were played from replays however, really kills that excitement because part of the thrill of watching the all-kill format is that everything unfolds live (in the sense that games ARE played in order every time), so when you're in a 4-4 situation going into the final game, you know that both players know their lives are on the line. You will get a better result regardless of the playing conditions than an EGMC format in which Set 4 might be played before Set 1, and the players in Set 4 may not even know the scores of other games until later. What if Set 4 ends up being a critical set in which a team lost Set 1 and 2, then wins Set 3, and the Set 4 player is under a lot of pressure to win the match to send it to ace. Because games are played out of order, that level of excitement just isn't present. While viewers don't necessarily know that games are played out of order, there is an undeniable feeling that isn't there even in this situation because of the possibility that the games were played out of order.
For example, I know sometimes, teams even play the ace match regardless, even if the score ends up 3-0 or 3-1, just due to scheduling. In that case, the ace match loses all its excitement because it was played as just another game, so to speak.
*edit: the real thing would be... can anyone make the case that a system in which players playing at fully optimal capacity would lead to a significant increase in viewership? I don't think so, because viewers can't tell the difference. For example, a very small portion of people are good enough at basketball/have played the game competitively enough to really understand why NBA players are so godly. They watch the game and are entertained by things and say "wow these guys are good." Aside from "Kobe is a god," they don't really understand how he's so good. I mean he's not significantly more athletic/physically gifted than most other players, but he's better because he does a million small things that 90% of the audience can't even realize. They still watch just the same. And it's not as if MORE people would watch if they understood what he did.
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I believe that the problem in the LR thread was (I only just read up on it, since I wanted to know what the responses were to Stephano winning) that you seemed to make your post just after TL's win, and that it only seemed like an excuse for the loss.
Now, I do not know you, but I do not believe you'd post something that so obviously provoked the response it did, if you were "sour" over the loss. But I do think that you got your point through in a manner that made it seem as though Taeja/Hero would have won had the games been playing earlier in the day.
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All the Korean teams deal with this. Its just a matter of if you really want to play in the event or not.
You are still at an advantage of Korean teams having the majority of your players being 'foreigners'.
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Dr. Pepper is the nectar of the gods. How dare you discourage anyone from drinking it.
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We travel a lot, we play jetlagged, short on sleep, in the middle of the night, we win and we lose. Throughout the years we have had hundreds of matches with disadvantageous conditions. I really believe that as long as the conditions are predictable you accept them by joining the league, and shouldn't make an issue out of it when you lose.
Being tired is so common for players it should not be brought up when losing. Every team could pretty much be talking about jetlag, being tired, and scheduling issues after every match they lose. We shouldn't want that kind of scene. I have always found it extremely important that we keep those excuses from the fans who try to enjoy the matches. Kennigit's statements don't reflect how the team feels. I apologize to EG and the fans for what was said.
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I don't think anyone holds Kennigit's comments against him or the team as long as they understand it as a reason but not an excuse. Although I do think the secondary comment on tournament format could have waited until another time, especially considering TL's recent IPTL run.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 12 2012 17:04 Jerubaal wrote:
I don't think anyone holds Kennigit's comments against him or the team as long as they understand it as a reason but not an excuse. Although I do think the secondary comment on tournament format could have waited until another time, especially considering TL's recent IPTL run.
irony's a beautiful thing ^_^
hopefully does understand it and doesn't just blindly complain about this.
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On September 12 2012 16:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Kennigit's statements don't reflect how the team feels. I apologize to EG and the fans for what was said.
I think Kennigit's made it very clear that in this instance he's talking from the position of a fan/spectator and not from the team, and I don't think there's any problem with that at all. It's often really useful to hear these 'insider views' even if they're speaking for themselves and not a team/organisation, because issues like the potential for scheduling/timing concerns are things which people wonder about but can't really answer for themselves. It raises the content of the discussion to have people who actually know what they are talking about bringing that sort of thing up. Even if the timing was a little problematic, having the discussion associated with a current event makes it more meaningful, and I am not really convinced that any apology is necessary for that.
As for the topic itself, I agree with the people who would like to see more teamleagues with a different format. Winner-stays is fun, and as people have said the all-kill storylines are exciting, but I feel like it does skew the excitement a lot in favour of one player, which might not be the case in other formats. For example, it was fantastic to see Sheth take his victories last night - but the way that the format works means that they probably won't be much talked about. At the end of the matches, people are mostly led to focus on the 'winner' who's finished off - in this case Stephano, in the last season of IPL TAC often Taeja. This is great for a while, and it's nice to have these storylines of dominant players triumphing, but maybe not all the time. Sometimes it does feel like we're just watching ace matches between particular individual players, less than a team, which I think a shake-up in format might change, particularly as things like each player's particular role come a lot more into play (as Falling commented - quoted for clarity).
On September 12 2012 13:51 Falling wrote:
I really am not a fan of the all-kill format. I like the head games of when coaches are trying to decide who to send out against who. It seems to me, the different roles in a team come much more into play. Specialist players to knock out x player or race, Ace player to bring the team home, etc.
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All-kill format is stupid anyway, makes no sense that like 90% of SC2 team events are played in that. The most 'exciting' part of it, according to its supporters, is watching one guy win multiple games - but you can already do that watching an MLG or whatever, and seeing one person get 4-5 kills says nothing of their team whatsoever. No offense to TeamLiquid, but seeing 'their great run' last IPTL was fucking ridiculous, lol. It's really stupid that a team is talked about as an amazing team that can contest the strongest teams out there based off one player's performances. (don't get me wrong, I'm not saying TL is a bad team or anything, it's just retarded that people use their IPTL run as a metric of the team's strength when it was literally one player getting them to the finals. It's like worse than Oz in WL PL)
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I want to thank Kennigit for the great insights about the player's and team's problems with an online all-kill format like this. In future I will think more about the player's condition when watching IPTL and I would've never thought about it before without your statement.
With that being sad, I still love the all-kill format and it's the most exciting to watch imo. The problems with scheduling are equal for every team and I think it just adds to the managing/preperation skill that is required. I'm sure many players had to wake and then stay up in the middle of the night to play, but imo that's part of being a progamer and if a player or team decides to play in a league they should be willing to deal with this problem. It can even make for a more an exciting story if the conditions aren't perfect and they certainly aren't always in other sports (bad weather or injuries etc...). So as a viewer I hope we can still enjoy the formant in the future and the teams stay willing to deal with the difficulties.
Just my 2 cents, thanks for allowing this discussion in your blog! <3
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To the people bringing up Proleague and it's success with a format different to all-kill:
First off you need to remember that the Kespa teams live together in dedicated team houses with very strict training regimens. They benefit from many practice partners as well as coaches who help them train and prepare extensively for specific match-ups or maps. Furthermore, the reason they were able to devote so much hard work into preparations for a single match-up was because, unlike StarCraft 2, there wasn't an overabundance of high profile tournaments.
You had Starleague, MSL, Proleague and for a while there was the GOM Classic as well. And then, there was almost no travel. Only a very few of the top koreans would have to travel, and that was for the yearly WCG finals or the occassional BlizzCon Invitational. They weren't on a plane every couple of weeks. Said overabundance of tournaments I feel has begun to hinder the scene a bit.
Personally I find the all-kill format quite exciting. It's pretty telling of who is really good at the moment regardless of individual tournament results. (DongRaeGu and MMA before they started tearing everything up, TaeJa back in early 2011, Creator and MarineKing in the KSL etc) It makes for some really good stories too, I'm sure nobody has forgotten qxc's win over IM. But as many have pointed out in this thread, the all-kill format is quite tedious for online play, especially if your team is spread over multiple continents. Now I would argue that if IPTL used the proleague format, it would not be as popular (how big the difference would be, I am not in a position to speculate about) since we already have a team league that will deliver those cool stories, one arguably more prestigious. (the GSTL, of course)
I think that IPTL and similar leagues more or less need this exciting format in order to be a bit more successful, especially since it has already produced the story of "team TaeJa". And that was really exciting, not only to see Team Liquid be within an inch of winning the whole thing, but also because of how fucking good that kid is at the game. So I imagine many spectators would be disappointed to not be able to experience that once more.
Oh, that brings me to my next point. When there is such an insane amount of high level tournaments to compete in, the players aren't the only ones who suffer, what with not being able to practice as hard as they would like, as well as travel/health issues that may arise. As some have mentioned earlier in this blog, sometimes it gets really tiresome as a spectator to keep track of everything that's happening, especially if you have to devote a lot of time to work or school or something along those lines. As a hardcore fan, for me that's not a problem, but I imagine for many it is the reason they have stopped following the proscene, because if you miss out on a few tournaments you come back to realize that "Hey, suddenly the top 5 in the world are some guys you never heard of previosuly and can't identify with; you're going to have to watch a lot more if you want to be in the know"
I don't know what Team Liquid as a team thinks of these online team leagues and how much importance you put on a single match, especially considering that it was against your archrivals Evil Geniuses. But personally, I as a fan put more value on the fact that your two players 4-1 through their Code S groups to move forward than I would on beating EG (not to take away anything from EG as a team or undermine Stephano's victory as an ace). Though I can imagine how frustrating it is to know that you didn't at least get to show your best performance.
Anyhow, I hope this is not an incoherent ramble, I just wanted to add my 2 cents. ^_^
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On September 12 2012 16:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
We travel a lot, we play jetlagged, short on sleep, in the middle of the night, we win and we lose. Throughout the years we have had hundreds of matches with disadvantageous conditions. I really believe that as long as the conditions are predictable you accept them by joining the league, and shouldn't make an issue out of it when you lose.
Being tired is so common for players it should not be brought up when losing. Every team could pretty much be talking about jetlag, being tired, and scheduling issues after every match they lose. We shouldn't want that kind of scene. I have always found it extremely important that we keep those excuses from the fans who try to enjoy the matches. Kennigit's statements don't reflect how the team feels. I apologize to EG and the fans for what was said.
I completely agree with that statement, if the conditions are bad fix them behind the curtain. Speaking about it in public just devalues the show. I as a spectator should not worry about those matters and i shouldnt been able to put a blame on conditions before player performance in a match. There is nothing more annoying than seeing, "player X just came back from MLG yesterday, so when he loses its np he was jetlagged"
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For online leagues, EG'S MCSL is better I feel. I still like IPL's team stuff though!
Stephano had to win that after the Geniuses Falling video.
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Agree 100% with Nazgul. If you don't like the format, do not sign up.
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I like ign's bo9 all kill format. It's exciting to watch. Because it is fun to spectulate who is coming out. Or if a player can all kill a team. EGMCS format is cool but its a lot of games but you only need 4 players potentially 5 for it. So if you choose what 4 you want to play in that you can rest them better them. This is just in theory, idk if it would actually work.
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On September 12 2012 22:41 HeeroFX wrote:
I like ign's bo9 all kill format. It's exciting to watch. Because it is fun to spectulate who is coming out. Or if a player can all kill a team. EGMCS format is cool but its a lot of games but you only need 4 players potentially 5 for it. So if you choose what 4 you want to play in that you can rest them better them. This is just in theory, idk if it would actually work.
But, in an all-kill format you only need max 5 players too for a bo9. And you don't have to announce who will play on what map in advance either; the reason EG do it in their league is to build up hype over potentially big matches / have fans of specific players know in advance if and when they play.
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On September 12 2012 12:19 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:16 Adebisi wrote:
I'd prefer 4xBO1, the 4 hour long broadcasts from multiple leagues every night is just exhausting. Yeah. You have to be not in education, employment, or training to follow SC2 leagues. I know a lot of people in rl that stopped watching SC2.
This. Whenever I see somebody complaining about OSL's Bo1 round robin format, I picture an unemployed person or straight F student.
I think SC2 should start moving away from these marathon sessions. The scene can't limit itself to people who have no responsibilities or drive in life. I have to admit, I've barely watched anything the past year or so. I just check the results and maybe watch a VOD once a month or so.
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On September 12 2012 16:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
We travel a lot, we play jetlagged, short on sleep, in the middle of the night, we win and we lose. Throughout the years we have had hundreds of matches with disadvantageous conditions. I really believe that as long as the conditions are predictable you accept them by joining the league, and shouldn't make an issue out of it when you lose.
Being tired is so common for players it should not be brought up when losing. Every team could pretty much be talking about jetlag, being tired, and scheduling issues after every match they lose. We shouldn't want that kind of scene. I have always found it extremely important that we keep those excuses from the fans who try to enjoy the matches. Kennigit's statements don't reflect how the team feels. I apologize to EG and the fans for what was said.
On September 12 2012 16:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
We travel a lot, we play jetlagged, short on sleep, in the middle of the night, we win and we lose. Throughout the years we have had hundreds of matches with disadvantageous conditions. I really believe that as long as the conditions are predictable you accept them by joining the league, and shouldn't make an issue out of it when you lose.
Being tired is so common for players it should not be brought up when losing. Every team could pretty much be talking about jetlag, being tired, and scheduling issues after every match they lose. We shouldn't want that kind of scene. I have always found it extremely important that we keep those excuses from the fans who try to enjoy the matches. Kennigit's statements don't reflect how the team feels. I apologize to EG and the fans for what was said.
Fan of both teams here, especially Taeja, Idra, and Puma.
Way to take the high road sir. LOTS of respect gained for you and the team from this statement in addition to the high amount you guys already have from me.
The best players and teams find ways to win even in less than optimal conditions. This isn't just e-sports, just look at Jordan with the flu in the finals. (I guess I thought of this since Xeris was talking about Kobe lol) Taeja seemed to be doing great against JYP, and Stephano just took advantage of his greed.Honestly if Hero was dead tired it mightve been a time for Liquid to use their depth and snipe Steph with Ret.
As for Kennigit, not a big fan of the comments/non-excuses/reasons for the loss right after EG wins or this blog. I'm sure you realize how it at least looks bad even if that wasn't your intention. Hopefully though, its played at more optimal conditions for the Koreans in the future though. That way Puma can win it for EG 5-1
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On September 12 2012 16:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
We travel a lot, we play jetlagged, short on sleep, in the middle of the night, we win and we lose. Throughout the years we have had hundreds of matches with disadvantageous conditions. I really believe that as long as the conditions are predictable you accept them by joining the league, and shouldn't make an issue out of it when you lose.
Being tired is so common for players it should not be brought up when losing. Every team could pretty much be talking about jetlag, being tired, and scheduling issues after every match they lose. We shouldn't want that kind of scene. I have always found it extremely important that we keep those excuses from the fans who try to enjoy the matches. Kennigit's statements don't reflect how the team feels. I apologize to EG and the fans for what was said.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make to Kennigit's but couldn't really express well. Thank you Nazgul
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Winners League format is fun to watch, every once and a while, just like it was in BW. But watching it every night is exceedingly tiring. Especially considering the often lopsided talent pool in teams and in the scene. I'm not saying I don't enjoy watching Taeja mow through several teams worth of players, but watching that night after night, or sitting through one of these amateur division matches where one player absolutely crushes some inferior team makes for some pretty awful viewing.
The drama and tactics of Proleague format is completely lost or just foreign to most people in the SC2 scene. Watching a player who's been preparing for weeks to snipe the other team's ace is something beautiful to behold. Seeing the coach's predictions weighing up against each other and how they're trying to get in each other's mind is really exciting. Even if a team doesn't have more talent than another team, with careful picks and planning they can still take down behemoths. All kill formats often seem hopeless when a team's ace goes down.
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Has absolutely nothing to do with the format..
This is simply the result when you have Koreans playing in a, or at least run by, a "foreigner"
What do you think would happen if Stephano played at 3am in a KR torunament eh? Wouldn't be in the best shape either.
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People with jobs and whatnot please please don't start a huge wave of complaints about the 9 games format. If you feel exhausted take a night off Starcraft.
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QQ?
User was warned for this post
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Stephano won NASL yet had to play multiple games at stupid times in the early morning due to time differences :| I distinctly remember him waking up at like 3am simply to play a match then go back to bed. Sure it sucks but it obviously didn't affect him as much as is being made out here. The kids got skills.
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On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
This is a much more interesting topic to me than timezones (in regard to a player being at “100%”). I am constantly dumbfounded at why pro players/teams don’t take physical/mental preparation more seriously. In every pro sport the diet of the player is closely monitored to make sure their body is running at peak efficiency. I have read interviews talking about how F1 drivers will do weekly blood/urine draws to make sure their bodies are absorbing nutrients correctly and that their brain is in the best possible state for a race. Then with all the studies flying around showing how much diet/exercise directly effects mental state/awareness/focus I am amazed that teams are not dictating a clean diet to their players. Feels like full amateur mode in an environment where everyone is claiming to be a professional.
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On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
Since some fans believe that addressing this after a match is making excuses, i'll take it to my blog. I write this as a nerd with a big mouth - i have nothing to do with player scheduling, line up decisions, league management etc.
<hr>
So without taking too much away from the fact that Stephano won, i'll address a lot of the comments about Taeja and Hero's performance/making mistakes. These two games were played between 2:30 and 3:30am korean time - hero had just played his code s matches (at around 5pm) then came home to wait for this. Scheduling matches internationally fucking sucks - its pretty common that you can be in worse or better condition that your opponent just based on scheduling (it was about 9pm EU, 3pm US when stephano/taeja played, and probably 230pm US/130am KR when Sheth played). Iirc we had basically hit the limit for delaying this set, so delaying the games wasn't really an option.
Robin (our player manager), disagrees with me that the timing affected either Taeja or Hero's performance (that they are on odd sleeping patterns), but i think there has to be some value to the idea that if your physical and mental condition isn't at it's peak, you aren't going to play as well as you can.
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
JYP and Puma both had to play under the same conditions so it's possible that we could have lost earlier (5-2/5-3) if it was in their favor (Sheth played from US). Teams play with the idea that whatever time you agree on is the time, and you just deal with the unfortunate consequences of having your players spread all around the world. It's kind of like in the MMA world where you never really come into a fight without some bumps, bruises,dehydration - i think a lot of fans just assume everyone is always at 100%.
Because of the IPTL winner-stays format, you cant just schedule certain matches for better timing. There's not an optimal solution for timings right now. Ideally your players are in the best possible mental condition when they play hard matches due to the cerebral nature of SC2...it's just not as feasible as we'd like.
Until we have all players in central locations or some better solution you just have to factor in more variance in performance/decision making for all your favorite players.
It leads me to question if a winner-stays format is really the best for players in the long run considering they are all spread around. EGMC is a 4xBo3 with a Bo3 Ace match which is a different dynamic for predicting and sniping, but also allows for scheduling that is a bit more forgiving (robin can probably give better details on this).
I'm interested to know if you think an all-kill format where more play variance exists is more "fun" or "interesting" to watch than a 4xBo3 that players can prep/schedule for.
You guys need to get a handle on your players. They don't like listening but you are trying to do what's best for them and they'll appreciate it more in the long run.
Robin says the players were fine. Taeja most certainly didn't look that way against Stephano, lol.
The game prior was a bit of a squash as well, so you cannot really get a good read.
Anyway, I never did like all these bush leagues and I would like to see a central tour/league as well that way everyone is on the same sleep schedule opposed to delaying and trying to micro manage your players sleep patterns through online tournament to online tournament.
I personally think the All-Kill format has been over done and I've never been a big fan of the GSTL format amongst the rest either.
I prefer season play carried throughout a world circuit. So every pro player and team could compete at each destination.
That would only happen if all the major organizers actually start working together to create one circuit where each plays host to a number of cities and get the broadcast rights.
On September 13 2012 03:58 101998 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
This is a much more interesting topic to me than timezones (in regard to a player being at “100%”). I am constantly dumbfounded at why pro players/teams don’t take physical/mental preparation more seriously. In every pro sport the diet of the player is closely monitored to make sure their body is running at peak efficiency. I have read interviews talking about how F1 drivers will do weekly blood/urine draws to make sure their bodies are absorbing nutrients correctly and that their brain is in the best possible state for a race. Then with all the studies flying around showing how much diet/exercise directly effects mental state/awareness/focus I am amazed that teams are not dictating a clean diet to their players. Feels like full amateur mode in an environment where everyone is claiming to be a professional.
It's called better coaching & managing. It's as if everyone needs to be treated as an MC where he has his personal assistants. You need to teach them and inform them of how to take better care of their health so they're always alert and getting the job done.
Like a Hawk.
On September 13 2012 03:37 Randomrichie wrote:
Stephano won NASL yet had to play multiple games at stupid times in the early morning due to time differences :| I distinctly remember him waking up at like 3am simply to play a match then go back to bed. Sure it sucks but it obviously didn't affect him as much as is being made out here. The kids got skills.
He most certainly does. EG doesn't really need to worry about him so much which is a good thing.
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I really like the all kill format in a live setting like GSL or the IPLTAC finals with liquid vs IM, but I could get used to something like 4xbo1 or 6xbo1 with ace match for online team leagues.
I don't like the daily 4xbo3 that EGMC uses though because it just seems to drag on all night. Its a format that might be exciting in a live event as well though, because I usually plan to set aside time to watch starcraft for a live event rather than daily events where I might just want to tune in for an hour or so while eating dinner or something.
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i dont see why anyone is making a poop about taeja losing because he was floating 1k minerals and didnt build a bunker ;p the biggest and probably only weakness in taejas play is that when hes attacking he tends to fall behind on macro, especially when hes harrasing with his banshees and helions. he may of been tired of made a bigger mistake than normal but this is what taeja does every game :D i still love his play and when he perfects his balance of macro and micro he will probably be the best in the world but i wasnt suprised he lost to an all in counter attack.
i definitely prefer the all kill format though, it makes it feel more like a team than a series of blindly picked 1v1s.
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I always thought winners format was just a little bit of spice that is nice to have every now and then. I prefer the 4 bo1 series, with maps announced head of time. Call me old school, but matches that last over 2 hours is just to much, so hard to follow 10 leagues at once
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I'm interested to know if you think an all-kill format where more play variance exists is more "fun" or "interesting" to watch than a 4xBo3 that players can prep/schedule for.
Nope. As people mentioned there's a bit of "story" you can hype up in such a format, sure, but it doesn't compare to the large and obvious difference in the quality of the games you see when players have prep time.
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On September 13 2012 04:44 turdburgler wrote:
i dont see why anyone is making a poop about taeja losing because he was floating 1k minerals and didnt build a bunker ;p the biggest and probably only weakness in taejas play is that when hes attacking he tends to fall behind on macro, especially when hes harrasing with his banshees and helions. he may of been tired of made a bigger mistake than normal but this is what taeja does every game :D i still love his play and when he perfects his balance of macro and micro he will probably be the best in the world but i wasnt suprised he lost to an all in counter attack.
i definitely prefer the all kill format though, it makes it feel more like a team than a series of blindly picked 1v1s.
Well he certainly looked like total shit that game and those 1v1 aren't really blind as the teams know the maps and it's actually interesting to see what kinds of decisions the managers make along with the teams.
Sniping can be a lot of fun.
When we see the All-Kill format all the frigging time it gets tiring and there is way too many mini leagues.
It's a total disservice when the fans only get to see so many matches and in many cases the teams rarely meet so how are you supposed to develop rivalaries that way?
I'd rather get rid of all the mini leagues and combine them together to make one big league where the organizers like IPL/MLG/GOM act as the broadcasters like OGN and MBC before it. We can do it on location of the majors and each season is annual.
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On September 13 2012 04:23 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
Since some fans believe that addressing this after a match is making excuses, i'll take it to my blog. I write this as a nerd with a big mouth - i have nothing to do with player scheduling, line up decisions, league management etc.
<hr>
So without taking too much away from the fact that Stephano won, i'll address a lot of the comments about Taeja and Hero's performance/making mistakes. These two games were played between 2:30 and 3:30am korean time - hero had just played his code s matches (at around 5pm) then came home to wait for this. Scheduling matches internationally fucking sucks - its pretty common that you can be in worse or better condition that your opponent just based on scheduling (it was about 9pm EU, 3pm US when stephano/taeja played, and probably 230pm US/130am KR when Sheth played). Iirc we had basically hit the limit for delaying this set, so delaying the games wasn't really an option.
Robin (our player manager), disagrees with me that the timing affected either Taeja or Hero's performance (that they are on odd sleeping patterns), but i think there has to be some value to the idea that if your physical and mental condition isn't at it's peak, you aren't going to play as well as you can.
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
JYP and Puma both had to play under the same conditions so it's possible that we could have lost earlier (5-2/5-3) if it was in their favor (Sheth played from US). Teams play with the idea that whatever time you agree on is the time, and you just deal with the unfortunate consequences of having your players spread all around the world. It's kind of like in the MMA world where you never really come into a fight without some bumps, bruises,dehydration - i think a lot of fans just assume everyone is always at 100%.
Because of the IPTL winner-stays format, you cant just schedule certain matches for better timing. There's not an optimal solution for timings right now. Ideally your players are in the best possible mental condition when they play hard matches due to the cerebral nature of SC2...it's just not as feasible as we'd like.
Until we have all players in central locations or some better solution you just have to factor in more variance in performance/decision making for all your favorite players.
It leads me to question if a winner-stays format is really the best for players in the long run considering they are all spread around. EGMC is a 4xBo3 with a Bo3 Ace match which is a different dynamic for predicting and sniping, but also allows for scheduling that is a bit more forgiving (robin can probably give better details on this).
I'm interested to know if you think an all-kill format where more play variance exists is more "fun" or "interesting" to watch than a 4xBo3 that players can prep/schedule for. You guys need to get a handle on your players. They don't like listening but you are trying to do what's best for them and they'll appreciate it more in the long run. Robin says the players were fine. Taeja most certainly didn't look that way against Stephano, lol. The game prior was a bit of a squash as well, so you cannot really get a good read. Anyway, I never did like all these bush leagues and I would like to see a central tour/league as well that way everyone is on the same sleep schedule opposed to delaying and trying to micro manage your players sleep patterns through online tournament to online tournament. I personally think the All-Kill format has been over done and I've never been a big fan of the GSTL format amongst the rest either. I prefer season play carried throughout a world circuit. So every pro player and team could compete at each destination. That would only happen if all the major organizers actually start working together to create one circuit where each plays host to a number of cities and get the broadcast rights. Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 03:58 101998 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
This is a much more interesting topic to me than timezones (in regard to a player being at “100%”). I am constantly dumbfounded at why pro players/teams don’t take physical/mental preparation more seriously. In every pro sport the diet of the player is closely monitored to make sure their body is running at peak efficiency. I have read interviews talking about how F1 drivers will do weekly blood/urine draws to make sure their bodies are absorbing nutrients correctly and that their brain is in the best possible state for a race. Then with all the studies flying around showing how much diet/exercise directly effects mental state/awareness/focus I am amazed that teams are not dictating a clean diet to their players. Feels like full amateur mode in an environment where everyone is claiming to be a professional. It's called better coaching & managing. It's as if everyone needs to be treated as an MC where he has his personal assistants. You need to teach them and inform them of how to take better care of their health so they're always alert and getting the job done. Like a Hawk. Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 03:37 Randomrichie wrote:
Stephano won NASL yet had to play multiple games at stupid times in the early morning due to time differences :| I distinctly remember him waking up at like 3am simply to play a match then go back to bed. Sure it sucks but it obviously didn't affect him as much as is being made out here. The kids got skills. He most certainly does. EG doesn't really need to worry about him so much which is a good thing.
We can all improve. Running team's as a professional sport is still very young and we're all learning, but I really think you need to slow down. You think a lot of things that aren't true and a lot of things have more than what meets your eye.
On top of that TaeJa didn't play well - there can be many reasons to this, but one thing is for sure is that there's absolutely no reason to make excuses for why he didn't play well. He played greedy, didn't see the bust coming and generally just got out-played by Stephano who is a great player.
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am I the only one who starts watching EG MCSL and then gets bored and tabs off?
I don't know if it is the casters, the format, the players or a combination but I never do the same when I am watching IPLTAC.
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All kill format is amazing and it's really the only type of team league I enjoy. I'm a big liquid fan, but honestly, this blog post is disgusting. It's up to liquid to manage their own team and saying 'yeah two of our players made silly mistakes, it's because they were tired and not playing their best' is just some pathetic excuse/cop out. Liquid intentionally fielded those players knowing the state they were in; don't make blog posts after the fact.
In short; All-Kill format is amazing for the viewers and it's up to the team to manage their own players.
/ah, nevermind. The actual team feels the same way we all do:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367694¤tpage=58#1143
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On September 12 2012 12:30 Lyter wrote:
AK format bores me because it is often so straightforward, especially when losing team picks the next map (srsly that is the dumbest rule ever) as that just makes the entire match a snipe fest that doesn't actually require any thought on the coaches part and he could draw a flowchart before the match for players to follow and go out and get hammered at a bar instead
Completely disagree with this assessment. If this were the case every AK format team match should be a 4-3 or 5-4 with each team alternating between their player winning then getting sniped. What makes AK format so great is seeing how it actually plays out. When a player gets a streak or an All Kill it means that all those players were trying their best to snipe that player but they played so well that they still won anyway, giving the loser the pick of the map makes this even more so, I have absolutely no idea how you could possibly argue for winners pick.
I honestly can't see how is this in any way more straight forward than the Proleague style.
Edit: After reading some more posts I think most people are just biased towards whichever format they got into first (myself included).
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On September 13 2012 10:06 Bumblebee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 04:23 StarStruck wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
Since some fans believe that addressing this after a match is making excuses, i'll take it to my blog. I write this as a nerd with a big mouth - i have nothing to do with player scheduling, line up decisions, league management etc.
<hr>
So without taking too much away from the fact that Stephano won, i'll address a lot of the comments about Taeja and Hero's performance/making mistakes. These two games were played between 2:30 and 3:30am korean time - hero had just played his code s matches (at around 5pm) then came home to wait for this. Scheduling matches internationally fucking sucks - its pretty common that you can be in worse or better condition that your opponent just based on scheduling (it was about 9pm EU, 3pm US when stephano/taeja played, and probably 230pm US/130am KR when Sheth played). Iirc we had basically hit the limit for delaying this set, so delaying the games wasn't really an option.
Robin (our player manager), disagrees with me that the timing affected either Taeja or Hero's performance (that they are on odd sleeping patterns), but i think there has to be some value to the idea that if your physical and mental condition isn't at it's peak, you aren't going to play as well as you can.
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
JYP and Puma both had to play under the same conditions so it's possible that we could have lost earlier (5-2/5-3) if it was in their favor (Sheth played from US). Teams play with the idea that whatever time you agree on is the time, and you just deal with the unfortunate consequences of having your players spread all around the world. It's kind of like in the MMA world where you never really come into a fight without some bumps, bruises,dehydration - i think a lot of fans just assume everyone is always at 100%.
Because of the IPTL winner-stays format, you cant just schedule certain matches for better timing. There's not an optimal solution for timings right now. Ideally your players are in the best possible mental condition when they play hard matches due to the cerebral nature of SC2...it's just not as feasible as we'd like.
Until we have all players in central locations or some better solution you just have to factor in more variance in performance/decision making for all your favorite players.
It leads me to question if a winner-stays format is really the best for players in the long run considering they are all spread around. EGMC is a 4xBo3 with a Bo3 Ace match which is a different dynamic for predicting and sniping, but also allows for scheduling that is a bit more forgiving (robin can probably give better details on this).
I'm interested to know if you think an all-kill format where more play variance exists is more "fun" or "interesting" to watch than a 4xBo3 that players can prep/schedule for. You guys need to get a handle on your players. They don't like listening but you are trying to do what's best for them and they'll appreciate it more in the long run. Robin says the players were fine. Taeja most certainly didn't look that way against Stephano, lol. The game prior was a bit of a squash as well, so you cannot really get a good read. Anyway, I never did like all these bush leagues and I would like to see a central tour/league as well that way everyone is on the same sleep schedule opposed to delaying and trying to micro manage your players sleep patterns through online tournament to online tournament. I personally think the All-Kill format has been over done and I've never been a big fan of the GSTL format amongst the rest either. I prefer season play carried throughout a world circuit. So every pro player and team could compete at each destination. That would only happen if all the major organizers actually start working together to create one circuit where each plays host to a number of cities and get the broadcast rights. On September 13 2012 03:58 101998 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
This is a much more interesting topic to me than timezones (in regard to a player being at “100%”). I am constantly dumbfounded at why pro players/teams don’t take physical/mental preparation more seriously. In every pro sport the diet of the player is closely monitored to make sure their body is running at peak efficiency. I have read interviews talking about how F1 drivers will do weekly blood/urine draws to make sure their bodies are absorbing nutrients correctly and that their brain is in the best possible state for a race. Then with all the studies flying around showing how much diet/exercise directly effects mental state/awareness/focus I am amazed that teams are not dictating a clean diet to their players. Feels like full amateur mode in an environment where everyone is claiming to be a professional. It's called better coaching & managing. It's as if everyone needs to be treated as an MC where he has his personal assistants. You need to teach them and inform them of how to take better care of their health so they're always alert and getting the job done. Like a Hawk. On September 13 2012 03:37 Randomrichie wrote:
Stephano won NASL yet had to play multiple games at stupid times in the early morning due to time differences :| I distinctly remember him waking up at like 3am simply to play a match then go back to bed. Sure it sucks but it obviously didn't affect him as much as is being made out here. The kids got skills. He most certainly does. EG doesn't really need to worry about him so much which is a good thing. We can all improve. Running team's as a professional sport is still very young and we're all learning, but I really think you need to slow down. You think a lot of things that aren't true and a lot of things have more than what meets your eye. On top of that TaeJa didn't play well - there can be many reasons to this, but one thing is for sure is that there's absolutely no reason to make excuses for why he didn't play well. He played greedy, didn't see the bust coming and generally just got out-played by Stephano who is a great player.
It might be new to you guys, but treating them like actual athletes is all about mindset. Professional athletes receive all sorts of seminars and workshops to deal with media, watch their nutritition levels, etc.
I'd like to know what exactly you find untrue BB?
Ofc he didn't play well and we're only talking about a few variables. You cannot control everything, but for the things you can control it's our duty to do our best to make sure each player is prepared mentally and physically.
If that means taking a power nap right after coming back from the GOM studio then so be it.
I'm not making excuses. That's not like me. There are none. You own up to everything you do and there's nothing to take away from Stephano. We know how good he is. Everyone wishes the game was a bit more entertaining though. ;/
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Canada8031 Posts
On September 12 2012 16:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
We travel a lot, we play jetlagged, short on sleep, in the middle of the night, we win and we lose. Throughout the years we have had hundreds of matches with disadvantageous conditions. I really believe that as long as the conditions are predictable you accept them by joining the league, and shouldn't make an issue out of it when you lose.
Being tired is so common for players it should not be brought up when losing. Every team could pretty much be talking about jetlag, being tired, and scheduling issues after every match they lose. We shouldn't want that kind of scene. I have always found it extremely important that we keep those excuses from the fans who try to enjoy the matches. Kennigit's statements don't reflect how the team feels. I apologize to EG and the fans for what was said.
Why shouldn't this be brought up? It's a legitimate problem with the way things currently work in the scene. Even ignoring the effect on their playing ability, being constantly jetlagged and tired is bad for the players' health. If this issue can be addressed and improved, it should be.
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On September 12 2012 13:51 Falling wrote:
I really am not a fan of the all-kill format. I like the head games of when coaches are trying to decide who to send out against who. It seems to me, the different roles in a team come much more into play. Specialist players to knock out x player or race, Ace player to bring the team home, etc.
Rather than we'll just send out our most dominant player and you try and find someone to beat him. It just doesn't seem that interesting to me.
This seems like a very biased and narrow minded explanation of both formats. Here's how I would probably write it:
I really am not a fan of the proleague format. I like the head games of when coaches are trying to decide who to send out against who. It seems to me, the different roles in a team come much more into play. Specialist players to snipe x player or race, Ace player to bring the team home, etc.
Rather than we'll just send out our most dominant player as the ace and you try and find someone to beat him. It just doesn't seem that interesting to me.
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Canada11349 Posts
On September 13 2012 12:16 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 13:51 Falling wrote:
I really am not a fan of the all-kill format. I like the head games of when coaches are trying to decide who to send out against who. It seems to me, the different roles in a team come much more into play. Specialist players to knock out x player or race, Ace player to bring the team home, etc.
Rather than we'll just send out our most dominant player and you try and find someone to beat him. It just doesn't seem that interesting to me. This seems like a very biased and narrow minded explanation of both formats. Here's how I would probably write it: I really am not a fan of the proleague format. I like the head games of when coaches are trying to decide who to send out against who. It seems to me, the different roles in a team come much more into play. Specialist players to snipe x player or race, Ace player to bring the team home, etc. Rather than we'll just send out our most dominant player as the ace and you try and find someone to beat him. It just doesn't seem that interesting to me.
I'm don't understand your post. Obviously I'm biased because I prefer another format. People that like all-kill are biased towards that. What matters is the explanation. But simply switching one word doesn't make the rest of what I said suddenly apply to your argument. All-kill is potentially very front-end loaded. Send out the big gun and have him rip through the entire team. You can't have that when it's 4 1v1's. I think there's a lot more head games when you can't rely on your big gun to do all the heavy lifting. (But they're still very important for winning that Ace match. I think the proleague format lends itself to more race specific snipers or players and therefore more head games on who to send next. Rather than, well Taeja (for instance) is tearing it up... who's next up to bat?
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Scheduling for these tournaments always sucks for every team. Worst scenario occurs a lot, which is when a mix of korean, usa, and european players are all competing in a match, in which case the only time that works is usually having the usa players playing their matches at 7-9 am.
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On September 13 2012 12:57 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 12:16 Myrddraal wrote:On September 12 2012 13:51 Falling wrote:
I really am not a fan of the all-kill format. I like the head games of when coaches are trying to decide who to send out against who. It seems to me, the different roles in a team come much more into play. Specialist players to knock out x player or race, Ace player to bring the team home, etc.
Rather than we'll just send out our most dominant player and you try and find someone to beat him. It just doesn't seem that interesting to me. This seems like a very biased and narrow minded explanation of both formats. Here's how I would probably write it: I really am not a fan of the proleague format. I like the head games of when coaches are trying to decide who to send out against who. It seems to me, the different roles in a team come much more into play. Specialist players to snipe x player or race, Ace player to bring the team home, etc. Rather than we'll just send out our most dominant player as the ace and you try and find someone to beat him. It just doesn't seem that interesting to me. I'm don't understand your post. Obviously I'm biased because I prefer another format. People that like all-kill are biased towards that. What matters is the explanation. But simply switching one word doesn't make the rest of what I said suddenly apply to your argument. All-kill is potentially very front-end loaded. Send out the big gun and have him rip through the entire team. You can't have that when it's 4 1v1's. I think there's a lot more head games when you can't rely on your big gun to do all the heavy lifting. (But they're still very important for winning that Ace match. I think the proleague format lends itself to more race specific snipers or players and therefore more head games on who to send next. Rather than, well Taeja (for instance) is tearing it up... who's next up to bat?
From my perspective it actually does apply perfectly to my argument. If it's a more in-depth explanation you want, here you go:
All-kill provides the mind games where the coach has to choose a player for who to send out, but in my opinion it is a better more complicated mind game because you then have to realise what players the other team can send out to counter that player. Sure you can send out your best player to take someone down but then you have to worry about the other team having planned a specific snipe for that player on a specific map of their choosing.
The different roles come in to play quite well in all-kill format, you can send out a streaky player first (like GuMiho) hoping that they can take a few wins/allkill or you can send a new/underexposed player which their opponent might not know their style and the Coach may not know who would be best to take them down. Then you have snipers set up for specific matchups or players and of course the trusty ace to send out either at the end or when all their likely snipers are already down.
My point was that all these things you mentioned are perfectly applicable to the All-Kill format and in my opinion (which I also admit to be biased) All-Kill does them all better. Yes, All-Kill is potentially front-end loaded, but I don't have a problem with it in this context. If a player is playing so well that they can take down a whole team that has most likely prepared specific strategies against them on specific maps, I think that is quite an accomplishment.
My main problem with your posts is that you are way oversimplifying the mentality of teams going in to games in the All-Kill format, such that your explanation of it is to be blunt, wrong, and you are doing a disservice to the teams. Take Liquid for example, if you actually look at their wins in IPLTAC3 for the most part they did their best with their other players first before relying on Taeja as the ace, just because he pulled through with the majority of their wins doesn't mean that before each match they just went "Okay guys, everyone else just do whatever, Taeja can beat everyone anyway".
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I watched SPL for the first time the past few months and I did not see any of the supposed strategy invovled. Maybe because it had that weird BW/SC2 combination and stuff, but it just seemed like all the Coaches picks were made prior and that there were no picks reactive to who the opponent is. What I love about All-Kill format is that it exhibits a strategy whereby the coach of the team who just lost knows who the opponent is and has to make a decision on the spot of who to send out to best counter that player. Or they may have to choose between a sniper and an all-around player. That's strategy. Selecting 4 names to play in separate 1v1s? I can't see how there's strategy in that beyond just mindgames about what the opposing coach would set the lineup as, but that's not much beyond sheer guessing.
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As long as we mix Korean, American and European teams in all leagues, its hard to find a fitting time to play games. These guys are proffessional players though, and we should expect them to perform well at any given situation, no?
I like the "all-kill" format, but I also like the 4xBO1 + Ace match.
The 4xBO3 that EGMC uses I think is to long, you could risk having 12 matches even before the ACE match, thats a long time watching one game, especially if you hit some TvT or something...
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hero was robbed 
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My main problem with your posts is that you are way oversimplifying the mentality of teams going in to games in the All-Kill format, such that your explanation of it is to be blunt, wrong, and you are doing a disservice to the teams. Take Liquid for example, if you actually look at their wins in IPLTAC3 for the most part they did their best with their other players first before relying on Taeja as the ace, just because he pulled through with the majority of their wins doesn't mean that before each match they just went "Okay guys, everyone else just do whatever, Taeja can beat everyone anyway".
The thing about that is, it doesn't really matter if they 'did their best' or not, at the end of the day one single player had more wins than the rest of the team combined.
Also, on topic of snipers and specific builds etc... how often do you actually see REALLY tailored builds in AK format games? Not very often at all except maybe against teams that overly rely on 1 player, because generally you want and need your players to take more than 1 game. It simply makes no sense to send out a player with the thought of, "he'll snipe this guy and afterwards, whatever" in AK format, at least unless you're in the lead already. Whereas in PL format, you might not be preparing for a specific player very often either, but you do have a lot of very map-specific and race-specific builds, which can be a very cool thing to see, especially in PvZ / PvP.
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All-kill has been way overdone in SC2 in my opinion. I greatly appreciate leagues like the EG MCSL because of the variance that they bring and I was really disappointed when I saw that this season of IPTL was keeping the same old format. Its a bad format that can many times result in the better team losing just because the other team had one hot player. Thats not my only problem with the format but I just find it boring in many cases at this point and I think almost all leagues should do away with it.
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On September 13 2012 11:52 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 10:06 Bumblebee wrote:On September 13 2012 04:23 StarStruck wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
Since some fans believe that addressing this after a match is making excuses, i'll take it to my blog. I write this as a nerd with a big mouth - i have nothing to do with player scheduling, line up decisions, league management etc.
<hr>
So without taking too much away from the fact that Stephano won, i'll address a lot of the comments about Taeja and Hero's performance/making mistakes. These two games were played between 2:30 and 3:30am korean time - hero had just played his code s matches (at around 5pm) then came home to wait for this. Scheduling matches internationally fucking sucks - its pretty common that you can be in worse or better condition that your opponent just based on scheduling (it was about 9pm EU, 3pm US when stephano/taeja played, and probably 230pm US/130am KR when Sheth played). Iirc we had basically hit the limit for delaying this set, so delaying the games wasn't really an option.
Robin (our player manager), disagrees with me that the timing affected either Taeja or Hero's performance (that they are on odd sleeping patterns), but i think there has to be some value to the idea that if your physical and mental condition isn't at it's peak, you aren't going to play as well as you can.
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
JYP and Puma both had to play under the same conditions so it's possible that we could have lost earlier (5-2/5-3) if it was in their favor (Sheth played from US). Teams play with the idea that whatever time you agree on is the time, and you just deal with the unfortunate consequences of having your players spread all around the world. It's kind of like in the MMA world where you never really come into a fight without some bumps, bruises,dehydration - i think a lot of fans just assume everyone is always at 100%.
Because of the IPTL winner-stays format, you cant just schedule certain matches for better timing. There's not an optimal solution for timings right now. Ideally your players are in the best possible mental condition when they play hard matches due to the cerebral nature of SC2...it's just not as feasible as we'd like.
Until we have all players in central locations or some better solution you just have to factor in more variance in performance/decision making for all your favorite players.
It leads me to question if a winner-stays format is really the best for players in the long run considering they are all spread around. EGMC is a 4xBo3 with a Bo3 Ace match which is a different dynamic for predicting and sniping, but also allows for scheduling that is a bit more forgiving (robin can probably give better details on this).
I'm interested to know if you think an all-kill format where more play variance exists is more "fun" or "interesting" to watch than a 4xBo3 that players can prep/schedule for. You guys need to get a handle on your players. They don't like listening but you are trying to do what's best for them and they'll appreciate it more in the long run. Robin says the players were fine. Taeja most certainly didn't look that way against Stephano, lol. The game prior was a bit of a squash as well, so you cannot really get a good read. Anyway, I never did like all these bush leagues and I would like to see a central tour/league as well that way everyone is on the same sleep schedule opposed to delaying and trying to micro manage your players sleep patterns through online tournament to online tournament. I personally think the All-Kill format has been over done and I've never been a big fan of the GSTL format amongst the rest either. I prefer season play carried throughout a world circuit. So every pro player and team could compete at each destination. That would only happen if all the major organizers actually start working together to create one circuit where each plays host to a number of cities and get the broadcast rights. On September 13 2012 03:58 101998 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
This is a much more interesting topic to me than timezones (in regard to a player being at “100%”). I am constantly dumbfounded at why pro players/teams don’t take physical/mental preparation more seriously. In every pro sport the diet of the player is closely monitored to make sure their body is running at peak efficiency. I have read interviews talking about how F1 drivers will do weekly blood/urine draws to make sure their bodies are absorbing nutrients correctly and that their brain is in the best possible state for a race. Then with all the studies flying around showing how much diet/exercise directly effects mental state/awareness/focus I am amazed that teams are not dictating a clean diet to their players. Feels like full amateur mode in an environment where everyone is claiming to be a professional. It's called better coaching & managing. It's as if everyone needs to be treated as an MC where he has his personal assistants. You need to teach them and inform them of how to take better care of their health so they're always alert and getting the job done. Like a Hawk. On September 13 2012 03:37 Randomrichie wrote:
Stephano won NASL yet had to play multiple games at stupid times in the early morning due to time differences :| I distinctly remember him waking up at like 3am simply to play a match then go back to bed. Sure it sucks but it obviously didn't affect him as much as is being made out here. The kids got skills. He most certainly does. EG doesn't really need to worry about him so much which is a good thing. We can all improve. Running team's as a professional sport is still very young and we're all learning, but I really think you need to slow down. You think a lot of things that aren't true and a lot of things have more than what meets your eye. On top of that TaeJa didn't play well - there can be many reasons to this, but one thing is for sure is that there's absolutely no reason to make excuses for why he didn't play well. He played greedy, didn't see the bust coming and generally just got out-played by Stephano who is a great player. It might be new to you guys, but treating them like actual athletes is all about mindset. Professional athletes receive all sorts of seminars and workshops to deal with media, watch their nutritition levels, etc. I'd like to know what exactly you find untrue BB? Ofc he didn't play well and we're only talking about a few variables. You cannot control everything, but for the things you can control it's our duty to do our best to make sure each player is prepared mentally and physically. If that means taking a power nap right after coming back from the GOM studio then so be it. I'm not making excuses. That's not like me. There are none. You own up to everything you do and there's nothing to take away from Stephano. We know how good he is. Everyone wishes the game was a bit more entertaining though. ;/
You are overvaluing the treatment MC gets. Also I think you think/want ESPORTS to be further ahead than it really is from a financial standpoint.
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All kill shouldnt be a common thing. The only reason i used to stay through matches with the format is because of the exclusivity. The chance to see that (R)AK was worth it.
Now a lot of the stuff i see are the 4 hour epics that i cant make time for.
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On September 13 2012 22:26 Bumblebee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 11:52 StarStruck wrote:On September 13 2012 10:06 Bumblebee wrote:On September 13 2012 04:23 StarStruck wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
Since some fans believe that addressing this after a match is making excuses, i'll take it to my blog. I write this as a nerd with a big mouth - i have nothing to do with player scheduling, line up decisions, league management etc.
<hr>
So without taking too much away from the fact that Stephano won, i'll address a lot of the comments about Taeja and Hero's performance/making mistakes. These two games were played between 2:30 and 3:30am korean time - hero had just played his code s matches (at around 5pm) then came home to wait for this. Scheduling matches internationally fucking sucks - its pretty common that you can be in worse or better condition that your opponent just based on scheduling (it was about 9pm EU, 3pm US when stephano/taeja played, and probably 230pm US/130am KR when Sheth played). Iirc we had basically hit the limit for delaying this set, so delaying the games wasn't really an option.
Robin (our player manager), disagrees with me that the timing affected either Taeja or Hero's performance (that they are on odd sleeping patterns), but i think there has to be some value to the idea that if your physical and mental condition isn't at it's peak, you aren't going to play as well as you can.
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
JYP and Puma both had to play under the same conditions so it's possible that we could have lost earlier (5-2/5-3) if it was in their favor (Sheth played from US). Teams play with the idea that whatever time you agree on is the time, and you just deal with the unfortunate consequences of having your players spread all around the world. It's kind of like in the MMA world where you never really come into a fight without some bumps, bruises,dehydration - i think a lot of fans just assume everyone is always at 100%.
Because of the IPTL winner-stays format, you cant just schedule certain matches for better timing. There's not an optimal solution for timings right now. Ideally your players are in the best possible mental condition when they play hard matches due to the cerebral nature of SC2...it's just not as feasible as we'd like.
Until we have all players in central locations or some better solution you just have to factor in more variance in performance/decision making for all your favorite players.
It leads me to question if a winner-stays format is really the best for players in the long run considering they are all spread around. EGMC is a 4xBo3 with a Bo3 Ace match which is a different dynamic for predicting and sniping, but also allows for scheduling that is a bit more forgiving (robin can probably give better details on this).
I'm interested to know if you think an all-kill format where more play variance exists is more "fun" or "interesting" to watch than a 4xBo3 that players can prep/schedule for. You guys need to get a handle on your players. They don't like listening but you are trying to do what's best for them and they'll appreciate it more in the long run. Robin says the players were fine. Taeja most certainly didn't look that way against Stephano, lol. The game prior was a bit of a squash as well, so you cannot really get a good read. Anyway, I never did like all these bush leagues and I would like to see a central tour/league as well that way everyone is on the same sleep schedule opposed to delaying and trying to micro manage your players sleep patterns through online tournament to online tournament. I personally think the All-Kill format has been over done and I've never been a big fan of the GSTL format amongst the rest either. I prefer season play carried throughout a world circuit. So every pro player and team could compete at each destination. That would only happen if all the major organizers actually start working together to create one circuit where each plays host to a number of cities and get the broadcast rights. On September 13 2012 03:58 101998 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
This is a much more interesting topic to me than timezones (in regard to a player being at “100%”). I am constantly dumbfounded at why pro players/teams don’t take physical/mental preparation more seriously. In every pro sport the diet of the player is closely monitored to make sure their body is running at peak efficiency. I have read interviews talking about how F1 drivers will do weekly blood/urine draws to make sure their bodies are absorbing nutrients correctly and that their brain is in the best possible state for a race. Then with all the studies flying around showing how much diet/exercise directly effects mental state/awareness/focus I am amazed that teams are not dictating a clean diet to their players. Feels like full amateur mode in an environment where everyone is claiming to be a professional. It's called better coaching & managing. It's as if everyone needs to be treated as an MC where he has his personal assistants. You need to teach them and inform them of how to take better care of their health so they're always alert and getting the job done. Like a Hawk. On September 13 2012 03:37 Randomrichie wrote:
Stephano won NASL yet had to play multiple games at stupid times in the early morning due to time differences :| I distinctly remember him waking up at like 3am simply to play a match then go back to bed. Sure it sucks but it obviously didn't affect him as much as is being made out here. The kids got skills. He most certainly does. EG doesn't really need to worry about him so much which is a good thing. We can all improve. Running team's as a professional sport is still very young and we're all learning, but I really think you need to slow down. You think a lot of things that aren't true and a lot of things have more than what meets your eye. On top of that TaeJa didn't play well - there can be many reasons to this, but one thing is for sure is that there's absolutely no reason to make excuses for why he didn't play well. He played greedy, didn't see the bust coming and generally just got out-played by Stephano who is a great player. It might be new to you guys, but treating them like actual athletes is all about mindset. Professional athletes receive all sorts of seminars and workshops to deal with media, watch their nutritition levels, etc. I'd like to know what exactly you find untrue BB? Ofc he didn't play well and we're only talking about a few variables. You cannot control everything, but for the things you can control it's our duty to do our best to make sure each player is prepared mentally and physically. If that means taking a power nap right after coming back from the GOM studio then so be it. I'm not making excuses. That's not like me. There are none. You own up to everything you do and there's nothing to take away from Stephano. We know how good he is. Everyone wishes the game was a bit more entertaining though. ;/ You are overvaluing the treatment MC gets. Also I think you think/want ESPORTS to be further ahead than it really is from a financial standpoint.
How so? It's a lot easier to manage one player compared to a team that is all over the place. In terms of micro managing MC I'd say it's a lot easier due to the volume alone. That's just logic and SK has someone always looking out for him.
I don't think where anywhere near the point of unification, but I do push for it in my agenda to get rid of most of the bush league crap we see going on.
On September 14 2012 00:31 Warpath wrote:
All kill shouldnt be a common thing. The only reason i used to stay through matches with the format is because of the exclusivity. The chance to see that (R)AK was worth it.
Now a lot of the stuff i see are the 4 hour epics that i cant make time for.
It does lose it's novelty after a while.
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I think this is fair statement to make, and will always have an affect in some way or another.
However:
EVERY professional gamer will have to play in suboptimal conditions. Part of an amazing player is succeeding against all odds, enemies, situations. It' already a given that not everyone is at 100% - maybe someone got a bad night of selep before mlg etc etc. Such conditions cannot be used to justify bad performance or something of the like - players will never always play at their best and thats just how it is.
tl;dr it exists for everyone so it shouldnt be a factor in determining the "validity" of a match or tournament.
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On September 13 2012 22:26 Bumblebee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 11:52 StarStruck wrote:On September 13 2012 10:06 Bumblebee wrote:On September 13 2012 04:23 StarStruck wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
Since some fans believe that addressing this after a match is making excuses, i'll take it to my blog. I write this as a nerd with a big mouth - i have nothing to do with player scheduling, line up decisions, league management etc.
<hr>
So without taking too much away from the fact that Stephano won, i'll address a lot of the comments about Taeja and Hero's performance/making mistakes. These two games were played between 2:30 and 3:30am korean time - hero had just played his code s matches (at around 5pm) then came home to wait for this. Scheduling matches internationally fucking sucks - its pretty common that you can be in worse or better condition that your opponent just based on scheduling (it was about 9pm EU, 3pm US when stephano/taeja played, and probably 230pm US/130am KR when Sheth played). Iirc we had basically hit the limit for delaying this set, so delaying the games wasn't really an option.
Robin (our player manager), disagrees with me that the timing affected either Taeja or Hero's performance (that they are on odd sleeping patterns), but i think there has to be some value to the idea that if your physical and mental condition isn't at it's peak, you aren't going to play as well as you can.
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
JYP and Puma both had to play under the same conditions so it's possible that we could have lost earlier (5-2/5-3) if it was in their favor (Sheth played from US). Teams play with the idea that whatever time you agree on is the time, and you just deal with the unfortunate consequences of having your players spread all around the world. It's kind of like in the MMA world where you never really come into a fight without some bumps, bruises,dehydration - i think a lot of fans just assume everyone is always at 100%.
Because of the IPTL winner-stays format, you cant just schedule certain matches for better timing. There's not an optimal solution for timings right now. Ideally your players are in the best possible mental condition when they play hard matches due to the cerebral nature of SC2...it's just not as feasible as we'd like.
Until we have all players in central locations or some better solution you just have to factor in more variance in performance/decision making for all your favorite players.
It leads me to question if a winner-stays format is really the best for players in the long run considering they are all spread around. EGMC is a 4xBo3 with a Bo3 Ace match which is a different dynamic for predicting and sniping, but also allows for scheduling that is a bit more forgiving (robin can probably give better details on this).
I'm interested to know if you think an all-kill format where more play variance exists is more "fun" or "interesting" to watch than a 4xBo3 that players can prep/schedule for. You guys need to get a handle on your players. They don't like listening but you are trying to do what's best for them and they'll appreciate it more in the long run. Robin says the players were fine. Taeja most certainly didn't look that way against Stephano, lol. The game prior was a bit of a squash as well, so you cannot really get a good read. Anyway, I never did like all these bush leagues and I would like to see a central tour/league as well that way everyone is on the same sleep schedule opposed to delaying and trying to micro manage your players sleep patterns through online tournament to online tournament. I personally think the All-Kill format has been over done and I've never been a big fan of the GSTL format amongst the rest either. I prefer season play carried throughout a world circuit. So every pro player and team could compete at each destination. That would only happen if all the major organizers actually start working together to create one circuit where each plays host to a number of cities and get the broadcast rights. On September 13 2012 03:58 101998 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
This is a much more interesting topic to me than timezones (in regard to a player being at “100%”). I am constantly dumbfounded at why pro players/teams don’t take physical/mental preparation more seriously. In every pro sport the diet of the player is closely monitored to make sure their body is running at peak efficiency. I have read interviews talking about how F1 drivers will do weekly blood/urine draws to make sure their bodies are absorbing nutrients correctly and that their brain is in the best possible state for a race. Then with all the studies flying around showing how much diet/exercise directly effects mental state/awareness/focus I am amazed that teams are not dictating a clean diet to their players. Feels like full amateur mode in an environment where everyone is claiming to be a professional. It's called better coaching & managing. It's as if everyone needs to be treated as an MC where he has his personal assistants. You need to teach them and inform them of how to take better care of their health so they're always alert and getting the job done. Like a Hawk. On September 13 2012 03:37 Randomrichie wrote:
Stephano won NASL yet had to play multiple games at stupid times in the early morning due to time differences :| I distinctly remember him waking up at like 3am simply to play a match then go back to bed. Sure it sucks but it obviously didn't affect him as much as is being made out here. The kids got skills. He most certainly does. EG doesn't really need to worry about him so much which is a good thing. We can all improve. Running team's as a professional sport is still very young and we're all learning, but I really think you need to slow down. You think a lot of things that aren't true and a lot of things have more than what meets your eye. On top of that TaeJa didn't play well - there can be many reasons to this, but one thing is for sure is that there's absolutely no reason to make excuses for why he didn't play well. He played greedy, didn't see the bust coming and generally just got out-played by Stephano who is a great player. It might be new to you guys, but treating them like actual athletes is all about mindset. Professional athletes receive all sorts of seminars and workshops to deal with media, watch their nutritition levels, etc. I'd like to know what exactly you find untrue BB? Ofc he didn't play well and we're only talking about a few variables. You cannot control everything, but for the things you can control it's our duty to do our best to make sure each player is prepared mentally and physically. If that means taking a power nap right after coming back from the GOM studio then so be it. I'm not making excuses. That's not like me. There are none. You own up to everything you do and there's nothing to take away from Stephano. We know how good he is. Everyone wishes the game was a bit more entertaining though. ;/ You are overvaluing the treatment MC gets. Also I think you think/want ESPORTS to be further ahead than it really is from a financial standpoint.
While I think this guy is being too critical with his statements, his core point merits more attention. Maybe sending players to media training and getting blood draws to test nutrition (SpectraCell is about $100+ a pop) is too much in the current climate, but nothing is stopping teams from adopting the mentality that these types of things are important and focusing on low/no-cost ways of stepping up. Telling players they have to eat clean and giving them a lifting routine to follow isn’t asking that much when the potential increase in performance/consistency is so high. Media training and sports counseling does cost a lot, but reading great books (War of Art by Steven Pressfield or Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill are a good place to start) and taking improv/stand-up classes at local theater are really cheap ways of bringing out personality and hardening resolve. Solutions are available if the mentality shift to thinking of the player’s life as a whole continuum (rather than just looking at in-game performance) happens. Rationalizing that money is somehow a factor is kind of BS.
To go beyond that the attitude as a whole in SC feels really amateur and immature. My impression of player’s practicing is grinding out games for 8 hours+ a day, which has to be the most inefficient way to practice I can think of. I guess this idea came from Korea where their mentality is “more effort and time will solve the problem”, but can you picture Tiger Woods, Michael Schumacher, Kobe Bryant or Rafael Nadal practicing this way? Arnold didn’t win all those bodybuilding competitions because he spent the most time in the gym, he won because sat down and figured out exactly what he needed to do to be the best and then executed those ideas like a motherfucker. SC feels like a lot of blind execution with not a lot of planning. Looking at books like The Power of Full Engagement by Tony Swartz talking directly about applying modern business efficacy theory to sports players it seems odd that resources like this are not used in SC. Maybe these principals are being applied and those conversations are just not made public, if so my apologies for the criticism.
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On September 14 2012 01:39 101998 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 22:26 Bumblebee wrote:On September 13 2012 11:52 StarStruck wrote:On September 13 2012 10:06 Bumblebee wrote:On September 13 2012 04:23 StarStruck wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
Since some fans believe that addressing this after a match is making excuses, i'll take it to my blog. I write this as a nerd with a big mouth - i have nothing to do with player scheduling, line up decisions, league management etc.
<hr>
So without taking too much away from the fact that Stephano won, i'll address a lot of the comments about Taeja and Hero's performance/making mistakes. These two games were played between 2:30 and 3:30am korean time - hero had just played his code s matches (at around 5pm) then came home to wait for this. Scheduling matches internationally fucking sucks - its pretty common that you can be in worse or better condition that your opponent just based on scheduling (it was about 9pm EU, 3pm US when stephano/taeja played, and probably 230pm US/130am KR when Sheth played). Iirc we had basically hit the limit for delaying this set, so delaying the games wasn't really an option.
Robin (our player manager), disagrees with me that the timing affected either Taeja or Hero's performance (that they are on odd sleeping patterns), but i think there has to be some value to the idea that if your physical and mental condition isn't at it's peak, you aren't going to play as well as you can.
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
JYP and Puma both had to play under the same conditions so it's possible that we could have lost earlier (5-2/5-3) if it was in their favor (Sheth played from US). Teams play with the idea that whatever time you agree on is the time, and you just deal with the unfortunate consequences of having your players spread all around the world. It's kind of like in the MMA world where you never really come into a fight without some bumps, bruises,dehydration - i think a lot of fans just assume everyone is always at 100%.
Because of the IPTL winner-stays format, you cant just schedule certain matches for better timing. There's not an optimal solution for timings right now. Ideally your players are in the best possible mental condition when they play hard matches due to the cerebral nature of SC2...it's just not as feasible as we'd like.
Until we have all players in central locations or some better solution you just have to factor in more variance in performance/decision making for all your favorite players.
It leads me to question if a winner-stays format is really the best for players in the long run considering they are all spread around. EGMC is a 4xBo3 with a Bo3 Ace match which is a different dynamic for predicting and sniping, but also allows for scheduling that is a bit more forgiving (robin can probably give better details on this).
I'm interested to know if you think an all-kill format where more play variance exists is more "fun" or "interesting" to watch than a 4xBo3 that players can prep/schedule for. You guys need to get a handle on your players. They don't like listening but you are trying to do what's best for them and they'll appreciate it more in the long run. Robin says the players were fine. Taeja most certainly didn't look that way against Stephano, lol. The game prior was a bit of a squash as well, so you cannot really get a good read. Anyway, I never did like all these bush leagues and I would like to see a central tour/league as well that way everyone is on the same sleep schedule opposed to delaying and trying to micro manage your players sleep patterns through online tournament to online tournament. I personally think the All-Kill format has been over done and I've never been a big fan of the GSTL format amongst the rest either. I prefer season play carried throughout a world circuit. So every pro player and team could compete at each destination. That would only happen if all the major organizers actually start working together to create one circuit where each plays host to a number of cities and get the broadcast rights. On September 13 2012 03:58 101998 wrote:On September 12 2012 12:05 Kennigit wrote:
An interesting side note to this is that at the IPL TAC 3 final, taeja didn't eat breakfast and refused to have anything besides water (and some coke) during the first set where he destroyed IM. He had a sandwich and coke between the two sets, but i think that was pretty much it.
At MLGs i yell at HerO when i see him drinking Dr. Pepper and ask him to eat a banana instead (he ignores me ;_;).
This is a much more interesting topic to me than timezones (in regard to a player being at “100%”). I am constantly dumbfounded at why pro players/teams don’t take physical/mental preparation more seriously. In every pro sport the diet of the player is closely monitored to make sure their body is running at peak efficiency. I have read interviews talking about how F1 drivers will do weekly blood/urine draws to make sure their bodies are absorbing nutrients correctly and that their brain is in the best possible state for a race. Then with all the studies flying around showing how much diet/exercise directly effects mental state/awareness/focus I am amazed that teams are not dictating a clean diet to their players. Feels like full amateur mode in an environment where everyone is claiming to be a professional. It's called better coaching & managing. It's as if everyone needs to be treated as an MC where he has his personal assistants. You need to teach them and inform them of how to take better care of their health so they're always alert and getting the job done. Like a Hawk. On September 13 2012 03:37 Randomrichie wrote:
Stephano won NASL yet had to play multiple games at stupid times in the early morning due to time differences :| I distinctly remember him waking up at like 3am simply to play a match then go back to bed. Sure it sucks but it obviously didn't affect him as much as is being made out here. The kids got skills. He most certainly does. EG doesn't really need to worry about him so much which is a good thing. We can all improve. Running team's as a professional sport is still very young and we're all learning, but I really think you need to slow down. You think a lot of things that aren't true and a lot of things have more than what meets your eye. On top of that TaeJa didn't play well - there can be many reasons to this, but one thing is for sure is that there's absolutely no reason to make excuses for why he didn't play well. He played greedy, didn't see the bust coming and generally just got out-played by Stephano who is a great player. It might be new to you guys, but treating them like actual athletes is all about mindset. Professional athletes receive all sorts of seminars and workshops to deal with media, watch their nutritition levels, etc. I'd like to know what exactly you find untrue BB? Ofc he didn't play well and we're only talking about a few variables. You cannot control everything, but for the things you can control it's our duty to do our best to make sure each player is prepared mentally and physically. If that means taking a power nap right after coming back from the GOM studio then so be it. I'm not making excuses. That's not like me. There are none. You own up to everything you do and there's nothing to take away from Stephano. We know how good he is. Everyone wishes the game was a bit more entertaining though. ;/ You are overvaluing the treatment MC gets. Also I think you think/want ESPORTS to be further ahead than it really is from a financial standpoint. While I think this guy is being too critical with his statements, his core point merits more attention. Maybe sending players to media training and getting blood draws to test nutrition (SpectraCell is about $100+ a pop) is too much in the current climate, but nothing is stopping teams from adopting the mentality that these types of things are important and focusing on low/no-cost ways of stepping up. Telling players they have to eat clean and giving them a lifting routine to follow isn’t asking that much when the potential increase in performance/consistency is so high. Media training and sports counseling does cost a lot, but reading great books (War of Art by Steven Pressfield or Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill are a good place to start) and taking improv/stand-up classes at local theater are really cheap ways of bringing out personality and hardening resolve. Solutions are available if the mentality shift to thinking of the player’s life as a whole continuum (rather than just looking at in-game performance) happens. Rationalizing that money is somehow a factor is kind of BS. To go beyond that the attitude as a whole in SC feels really amateur and immature. My impression of player’s practicing is grinding out games for 8 hours+ a day, which has to be the most inefficient way to practice I can think of. I guess this idea came from Korea where their mentality is “more effort and time will solve the problem”, but can you picture Tiger Woods, Michael Schumacher, Kobe Bryant or Rafael Nadal practicing this way? Arnold didn’t win all those bodybuilding competitions because he spent the most time in the gym, he won because sat down and figured out exactly what he needed to do to be the best and then executed those ideas like a motherfucker. SC feels like a lot of blind execution with not a lot of planning. Looking at books like The Power of Full Engagement by Tony Swartz talking directly about applying modern business efficacy theory to sports players it seems odd that resources like this are not used in SC. Maybe these principals are being applied and those conversations are just not made public, if so my apologies for the criticism.
I see where you're coming from, but there's more to it than what meets the eye. If you look at the Olympics and the Chinese. Any competition that requires repitition in training, the Chinese dominate at. For what reason do you think?
But I agree, there are many things we can do to get better and things are coming slowly. Our players actually do read a lot of books - especially Sheth and TLO. However, we're continuing to work on our media, practice and management every single day. Things will come, but they will take time.
And to the other guy about MC being alone on a team, yeah sure. That's true. But I don't think MC is better managed that our guys are, nor in terms of attention they get from management.
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All kill can certainly be more entertaining, and usually is from my perspective.
But that isn't to say the EGMC format isn't entertaining, it just doesn't leave room for something like an epic 4-0 Taeja all kill.
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On September 14 2012 11:59 ThaZenith wrote:
All kill can certainly be more entertaining, and usually is from my perspective.
But that isn't to say the EGMC format isn't entertaining, it just doesn't leave room for something like an epic 4-0 Taeja all kill.
EGMC format though better shows which team is the better team not which team has the best ringers and the best lucky streaks
not to take anything away from any players but everyone would agree bo1 is the worst way to decide the better player
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On September 13 2012 20:31 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +My main problem with your posts is that you are way oversimplifying the mentality of teams going in to games in the All-Kill format, such that your explanation of it is to be blunt, wrong, and you are doing a disservice to the teams. Take Liquid for example, if you actually look at their wins in IPLTAC3 for the most part they did their best with their other players first before relying on Taeja as the ace, just because he pulled through with the majority of their wins doesn't mean that before each match they just went "Okay guys, everyone else just do whatever, Taeja can beat everyone anyway". The thing about that is, it doesn't really matter if they 'did their best' or not, at the end of the day one single player had more wins than the rest of the team combined. Also, on topic of snipers and specific builds etc... how often do you actually see REALLY tailored builds in AK format games? Not very often at all except maybe against teams that overly rely on 1 player, because generally you want and need your players to take more than 1 game. It simply makes no sense to send out a player with the thought of, "he'll snipe this guy and afterwards, whatever" in AK format, at least unless you're in the lead already. Whereas in PL format, you might not be preparing for a specific player very often either, but you do have a lot of very map-specific and race-specific builds, which can be a very cool thing to see, especially in PvZ / PvP.
It does matter, because I am talking about the mentality and strategy involved, not the end result.
You see them pretty much all the time actually, because the loser gets to pick the map, it would be stupid not to practice specific strategies for the map and the race. I never said they would snipe and "afterwards, whatever", they would then try to anticipate their counter sniper and prepare for that as well. I'll admit that PL format allows for more specific planning, but to assume that players don't plan specific snipes in AK format is just ignorant.
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I don't see anything wrong with Kennigits statement. I see some logical fallacies here in these counter arguments.. as in... your not even arguing about the same thing really.
Kennigit - "I think Global Time Zone Online All-Kill format is a sub-optimal method of playing, as it presents the oppourtunity to provide unesseccary advantages for players, favoring or disfavoring. In conclusion, Is All kill format worth ditching to play in better more optimal conditions?"
Everyone Else - "A loss is a loss and no one ever plays perfectly in perfect conditions. Since this is true, mitigating these things in anyway is pointless and you should just take your losses like a champ."
So the rebuttal to:
"Is proactivley mitigating undesireable factors worth changing a popular format , if said format is the format of the popular majority?"
is:
"Absolute mitigation is impossible, so theorycrafting proactive mitigation is dumb, and you should feel dumb for suggesting it!"
With so many intelligent people writing in this blog, I can't see how this is even an arguemnt. Your not even butting heads really lol.
Of course the format could be better to mitigate such a problem. But like he said (and was asking) is the allure of the format more important than this fact? So many responses not even adressing the question, and then denying thinking about proactively suggesting a positive change, based on the fact that nothing can be perfect?what?huh?...
Also, no clue in hell why people ae saying Kennigit was making an excuse for the team loosing, he was making a motion for an opinion on a situation.
Seriously a little confused right now...
EDIT: In retrospect, this reminds me alot about that HUGE debacle about cross server play in the eg team league. In that particular thread, everyone was debating what was the best way to mitigate undesireable conditions. I understand this comes after a game played, but does that make the notion any less legitimate? Or is it simply illigitamate because Kennigit posted it being TL staff, even though he states quite a few times he is merely a spectator in the affair?
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On September 14 2012 01:22 Pokebunny wrote:
I think this is fair statement to make, and will always have an affect in some way or another.
However:
EVERY professional gamer will have to play in suboptimal conditions. Part of an amazing player is succeeding against all odds, enemies, situations. It' already a given that not everyone is at 100% - maybe someone got a bad night of selep before mlg etc etc. Such conditions cannot be used to justify bad performance or something of the like - players will never always play at their best and thats just how it is.
tl;dr it exists for everyone so it shouldnt be a factor in determining the "validity" of a match or tournament.
Agreed Poke.
It's really up to the players to make sure they're well rested and manage themselves accordingly under these conditions. You cannot control everything, but for those things you can do to prep yourself. By all means do it!
BD
On September 14 2012 12:26 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:59 ThaZenith wrote:
All kill can certainly be more entertaining, and usually is from my perspective.
But that isn't to say the EGMC format isn't entertaining, it just doesn't leave room for something like an epic 4-0 Taeja all kill. EGMC format though better shows which team is the better team not which team has the best ringers and the best lucky streaks not to take anything away from any players but everyone would agree bo1 is the worst way to decide the better player
If you ask me it's all bush league and if IPL or GSTL did things another way, I'm sure the Masters Cup would probably lean towards a different format as well.
You know, just to be different.
I like it's current format and the fact each team meets. Reminds me of the WGTour Clan League which isn't a bad thing, but a good thing.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
PL format shows team's depth. For me that's the most important.
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I prefer the 4x Bo3 format because it reminds me of WC3L...i wish team leagues were more important
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I don't watch IPTL and EGMC, so I can't talk about how much I enjoy each format for an online league, but I'm all up for a 4xbo1 team league.
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EPT
