I have never played Dota 2. I have never played the original Dota. I have never watched a Dota stream. I have only briefly played LoL casually with friends and is my only MOBA experience. I have never had any interest in any MOBA.
I have played Starcraft since I was in middle school living in Korea. I have watched Proleague, OGN and MBC broadcasts on TV. I have watched Professional Korean broadcasts on Youtube (Jon747 Wifebeater Nevake etc) ever since I came back to America. I have played SC2 and watched SC2 since the original WoL beta. I religiously watch SC2 streams, follow tournament brackets on Liquipedia, and tune in to matches in basically all major tournaments.
When I decided to watch the International 2 yesterday, I wasn't sure what to expect. The Team Liquid staff seemed to deem it worthy of it's blessing, the stream numbers were absurdly high for all the streams available in the sidebar. I had never had any interest in playing MOBA games (and I'm afraid I probably never will). I had read the main article covering the International 2's various teams from all regions, and key players and heroes to look out for; and was geniuenly intrigued by the event. It was the last day, I would only be watching the final games.
I was completely amazed at how much better the casters were compared to their SC2 counterparts.
Starting with the hero selections I was completely astounded by how knowledgeable the casters were. They discussed and analyzed each of the selection and ban choices the teams made, extremely quickly and on the fly as heroes were chosen and tossed aside. With every decision made, the casters would instantly be on the ball, discussing what the next "move" would be, what the team's general strategy or logic would be considering the composition vs the opponents.
I felt completely embarrassed when I thought about how blatantly simple SC2 casters discuss maps in their broadcasts; it usually amounts to "this map is big, so X race is favored here" "there's rocks here" "broad vague term and buzzword",
The amount of items and heros in Dota 2 was unreal to me, it seemed like there were infinite pieces to this puzzle. And yet the casters knew exactly what every single item is, what it does, what each hero's strengths and weaknesses are, and even more impressive: they knew how they interact with one another as a team, and how that combination would interact with the opponent's. As I was watching, more and more they commentators would continue to impress me with just how knowledgeable they were about all the seemingly endless combinations of spells, heroes and tactics involving them.
SC2 casters in comparison, for the most part, don't seem to understand the purpose of a lot of build orders. They oversimplify what each players is doing, they don't understand the fine details or logic that each player is displaying in their builds.
When they see a player move out, they'll just say "oh they're moving out." When they see an upgrade being started, they'll just say "he's getting these good upgrades." Rarely will you see casters who aren't top end discuss why the players are making these choices, and what logic they use to justify them.
They also knew so much about the players. They would describe their particular playstyles, what they like what they don't like, where they are strong and where they are weak. They know how the Chinese play, how the Americans play, how the Europeans play, what the trends are.
Let's be honest: Most SC2 casters don't know anything intricate about players, teams, or general regions. It's mostly "He's Zerg/Toss/Terran."
As the heroes began to move across the map, the Dota 2 casters seemed to be on top of the ball from beginning to end.
They'd keep track of each of the 10 heroes, where they are, where they're going, what they're trying to accomplish, what they actually have accomplished. They'd keep track of what each team's position on the map is. How far have they pushed up these various lanes?
They would have to quickly translate what is happening on the screen to the viewers. SC2 it's a lot easier to see what's on screen, because it's entirely "units are being killed." But for Dota 2, with the variety of spells and animations, it's much harder to keep track of everything. Even in the big battles, when the entire screen seemed to flash in a bunch of colors and lights, they would astoundingly announce the important actions of the players in a matter of seconds.
Probably the most impressive part of the Dota 2 casts for me was that they understood how the early, mid and late game was playing out. They kept track of where the advantage lied for both teams, what momentum and rhythm each team had, what the other team would have to do to get ahead or get back into the game.
Many times SC2 casters can understand the early game and mid game because it's so common, because it's not as intricate. There's not as many decisions being made. But they struggle a lot to discuss the late game where it's all about decision making and being a smarter player than the other.
It's true. I actually have no idea about Dota 2 and I probably never will. Maybe I am completely wrong about the Dota 2 casters and am just giving them a bias. Maybe I just don't like SC2 casters.
But still, I can't help but feel that if these "foreigner" DOTA casters can show such an apparent wealth of knowledge and insight, then SC2 casters have no excuse for not giving us better analysis, and just a better show.
I miss Korean commentary. I hope SC2 casters can prove me wrong.
I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
Depth in Dota is much more obvious than in SC2, Knowing all items and heroes and most interactions is around silver level knowledge really(maybe gold). Just announcing stuff the same way as in SC2 is many times harder in dota as there's several magnitudes more happening. Also the fact that pretty much every dota caster plays A LOT (I don't think that is true for sc2) helps, they know exactly what is hard to achieve and stress it accordingly.
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
And I disagree with Qbek, Tobi and Synderen are very knowledgeable, far beyond what is often seen even in the upper echelons of matchmaking. It is hardly at silver or gold level.
DotA2 kind of lends itself towards a lot of lengthy discussion since before the game's even started, you can talk about how each and every hero will synergize with every other. You can talk about that with great detail at great length very easily, especially when you have a four person panel up like they did. SC2 doesn't really have that kind of equivalent.
I absolutely loved the TI2 tournament, though. It was incredibly well done, and the casters were all so spot on. They were incredibly professional, and everything was so polished...Valve sunk a TON of money into that tournament, but the end result was something that honestly put nearly every SC2 tournament to shame.
For casting, we need more TotalBiscuits (speed and excitement) paired with better analytical casters (more people on Day9/Artosis level). We don't have enough of either.
Honestly go play a few hundred dota 2 games and you will quickly realize how little the casters know saying it's impressive that the casters know every hero and item is equivalent to being impressed the sc2 casters know the entire tech tree for every race, sure the dota2 database might be a little bigger but honestly do you think it would be hard to memorize a little more? it comes with the territory and is pretty much impossible to not pick up after you player/watched the game enough. Not caster bashing. It's not an easy job but i would say they are definitely not superior to sc2 casters at all.
Well these are completely different games and there is just more to talk about durning MOBA match because of the amount of items/heroes/abilities. And some SC2 mu's are just boring like PvZ for example. But i can partly agree that a lot of SC2 are just...bad. For me the guy who always was far ahead of everyone else was Artosis - he just lives Starcraft, he makes few show here and there but u could feel SC is all he does. While other casters like Day9 or DjWheat have some other stuff to do, both of them have other jobs (Day9tv and twitchtv). I like to watch Bitterdam because its never boring and they seems to know the game prety good (compared to others at least). Also Apollo is the man^^
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
And I disagree with Qbek, Tobi and Synderen are very knowledgeable, far beyond what is often seen even in the upper echelons of matchmaking. It is hardly at silver or gold level.
I did watch The International 2 on Twitch, when everyone heard Tobi saying "BLAAAAAAAAAAACK HOOOOOOOOLLLLLLEEEEE" everybody kept spamming "Black Hole" in there own way, and i could not stop laughing.
That is some contagious enthusiasm. Maybe it is the fact that there can be SO much going on from 5 players at once that lends Dota to a good spectator sport. Of course it has its fair share of slow games as well, but many of the International 2 games were just amazing.
if you listened to luminous's interview you would hear how he talks to players and even synderen to research different aspects of competitive play so he knows what he's talking about even though he isn't at a competitive level. Tobi's level of analysis is pretty mediocre but he's always paired with someone like synderen who's captain for his team and let's him do the insight. Synderen is also pretty fit for casting, not just knowledge. Draskyl is also semi pro and he could stand in for a few teams.
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
And I disagree with Qbek, Tobi and Synderen are very knowledgeable, far beyond what is often seen even in the upper echelons of matchmaking. It is hardly at silver or gold level.
I meant the knowledge of heroes and items is silver level, Synd is definitely GM and Tobi knows his shit too(just doesn't always know when or how to apply the knowledge)
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
And I disagree with Qbek, Tobi and Synderen are very knowledgeable, far beyond what is often seen even in the upper echelons of matchmaking. It is hardly at silver or gold level.
I meant the knowledge of heroes and items is silver level, Synd is definitely GM and Tobi knows his shit too(just doesn't always know when or how to apply the knowledge)
I love hearing Synd cast just as I love watching SC2 players cast. They are SO knowledgeable; and they show it.
On September 04 2012 07:02 Tarot wrote: It's just because you haven't played that many moba games. There's just more stuff to talk about in dota than SC2.
The knowledge that you describe comes simply by playing more games. Even as a mostly casual dota player, nothing they said was incredibly indepth.
I've played mobas and I disagree. Dota 2's casters are just stellar.
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
If you get a premium ticket/subscription they let you pick between english and korean cast.
At OP: I was kinda impressed too. But as others have said, dota has much more to talk about. Hype is easier because the players dont decide if they attack, only what at and when. I watched TI2 and was very entertained until navi was losing really bad. I played dota 2 for the first time today and i got legit andrenaline rushes doing crazy stuffs, more than watching TI.
At the end of the day, i went back to watching gsl and i think part of sc2 is that there isnt as much to talk about, there are ridic common openings, and strategies arent self evident. Artosis during group A was like xxx is using the same build as xxx and if im right he should make a nexus and the goals of the build will be xx, xx and xx. Artosis knew that because he is protoss and an ex pro. He cant do the same things with the other two races. To get that, wed need two more ex pros who devote lots of time regardless of having babies. Also dota strats are self evident brcause dota heroes spells are sposed to work togrther and the teams spells are sposed to work together on top of that. Items normally just help getting in position, the team synergy, or the indovidual hero. For this reason, things in dota 2 are self evident especially if you are a player of it as well. Sc2, less so.
As a longtime Dota player who is just learning about TL, I'm glad you enjoyed watching The International. Just be aware that one of the main reasons the casting was so good is that this is the biggest (by 2-3 orders of magnitude) Dota tournament of the year and naturally only the best casters will be invited to commentate.
There are plenty of 2nd- and 3rd-tier Dota casters who have a cringeworthy lack of game knowledge, poor camera control, and general unprofessionalism. But those people don't get asked to cast The International.
The thing is, from my personal experience, the Dota / LoL commentators don't explain anything. You hear them talking about a ton of stuff that no one can understand except people who actually play the game. That makes the whole spectating experience very frustrating. Everytime I try to watch a dota game, I'm like "what is the purpose of this item? What is this spell?". At the end of the day, I wish the commentators were aware of the casual spectators.
Even if the knowledge is supposedly equivalent, the DotA 2 casters were still way better. The way Tobiwan got exciting about the fights made me want to get excited about the fights - and I had no fucking clue what was going on.
I think you feel like this mostly because theres just a hundred more vectors a DOTA caster can take. Each hero interacts with every one of the other 100 heroes in a different way, and this allows for more commentary, than compared to say SC2.
On September 04 2012 06:48 Gamegene wrote: I have watched Professional Korean broadcasts on Youtube (Jon747 Wifebeater Nevake etc) ever since I came back to America.
Jon747! Wifebeater! Oh nostalgia is kicking in now.
Synderen is like the smartest guy ever, yea obviously knowing what heroes do and items do is ezpz, but as a captain of his own team at an international level, his insight is off the chart. Listening to him as teams draft is heaven, some of the calls he makes are ridiculous yet spot on. But most importantly, everything has clearly explained reasoning to back up what he says
Really? I mean there were a lot of aspects to the games that were better, but I would definitely not include casting in that. The first combo I listened to was some guy who yelled too much and sounded really insincere. He kept making offhand inside jokey comments and just had a sort of over the top voice that's supposed to sound enthusiastic, but to me was just rather annoying. And in the finals, where I assumed they would bust out their top team they had some guy who stuttered through a lot of the play by play and an analyst that sounded like he had to be given cues to even ever talk. I actually never heard this tobi wan guy that everyone seems to think is the day9 of dota2, so I may be judging on a shallow pool of information, but I was not impressed.
Another thing I found irritating was the fact they used short forms for EVERYTHING. I understand that a lot of it is just experience with the game, but you really should be selective, or at least state it a few times at the start so everyone knows what you're talking about. If you just go balls to the wall acronyms it's not very helpful for new viewers and actually really runs the risk of alienating a large potential fan base. That should be worrying to people in dota2. If you want to sell your product you need people to be able to grasp what it is you're talking about.
Dota2 is actually a very simple game in comparison to SC2. There is one map, one set of items, and one hero pool and it never changes. The only thing a caster has to know about IS PICKS. If they don't know that then they really have no place commenting on the game. SC2 there are about 100 million maps and hundred different builds. The game changes on the fly constantly while in dota2 the concept is very simple. Get farmed, kill heroes, push lanes, deny heroes from farming. And these are accomplished in mostly singular ways. The meta shift in Dota2 is a lot less pronounced than in SC2 and the casters knowledge doesn't really have to expand ever. Teams in Dota have VERY clearly defined play styles and rarely mix it up to the extent sc2 players do. It would be like casting BETA Idra every game. You could just close your eyes and recite his last game and you'd probably be pretty close.
The best thing, and what I believe makes DOTA2 very easy to cast, is the fact there's no dead time to fill. There are 10 heroes on the board, powerup timers, roshan, creep lanes, towers and more. Tasteless' role in DOTA2 does not exist. It's hard to really grasp the amazing job that a lot of sc2 casters do with filling time, especially when put side by side with Dota2 casters. There really is no comparison because that's not a skill dota2 casters will ever need to add to their repertoire. On the other hand Dota2 casters have to follow a ton more stuff.
And that is something that people in that community have to figure out a better way of doing. It can be a little frustrating when a caster is following some maneuvering the woods by a few heroes when you see dots on the minimap clash and then a little message saying so and so has killed so and so. A LOT of Sc2 casts were having trouble following big multitasking games with drops and battles happening at the same time, so they fixed it, they found a way to show us all the action at once. I think Dota2 has to learn from their counterparts in sc2 as much as the reverse is true. There's room for improvement on both fronts so instead of just bemoaning that fact casters and broadcasters should just strive to produce a better product.
TLDR: Dota 2 doesn't have to fill time so comes off as a better cast, but their casters still have a long way to go. But I wasn't graced with a Tobi Wan cast so I can't pass full judgement. SC2 still could learn some things from them and vice versa so let's all keep getting better.
Dota2 is actually a very simple game in comparison to SC2. There is one map, one set of items, and one hero pool and it never changes. The only thing a caster has to know about IS PICKS. If they don't know that then they really have no place commenting on the game. SC2 there are about 100 million maps and hundred different builds. The game changes on the fly constantly while in dota2 the concept is very simple. Get farmed, kill heroes, push lanes, deny heroes from farming. And these are accomplished in mostly singular ways. The meta shift in Dota2 is a lot less pronounced than in SC2 and the casters knowledge doesn't really have to expand ever. Teams in Dota have VERY clearly defined play styles and rarely mix it up to the extent sc2 players do. It would be like casting BETA Idra every game. You could just close your eyes and recite his last game and you'd probably be pretty close.
From this statement I can tell you've never played Dota or Dota 2. So I just didn't bother reading the rest of your post.
I'll give you a hundred dollars if you can name a hundred builds that are used in competitive play.
SC2 is a simple game. There's 3 races, 6 different matchups, and around 5-10 different maps per tournament.
So you're praising sc2 casters for filling in the time cause nothing is happening? Maybe you should actually know what's going on in both games before you "pass" judgement, cause after watching both the sc2 casters plain out suck for the most part. The korean commentators are miles better than their english counterparts for a reason.
On September 04 2012 12:52 Itsmedudeman wrote: "hundred different builds"
I'll give you a hundred dollars if you can name a hundred builds that are used in competitive play.
SC2 is a simple game. There's 3 races, 6 different matchups, and around 5-10 different maps per tournament.
...really?
No but neither is dota, saying one or the other is simple is ignorant. He was just making fun of the large post of misinformation.
My friends and I make a game out of seeing how many things we call correctly that casters do not, so I notice a lot more of what they don't get then they do. It's awkward when I hear them call out GREAT BLACK HOLE and they kill a support veno with it and then get teamwiped by everybody else, or when the comment on how strong a level 4 tide's ravage (that doesn't exist yet) will be when they're smoke ganking, but they are doing a great job as it is. There's so much going on at once, its impossible to catch everything.
Sc2 and dota casts are completely different, its hard to compare them.
As someone who has watched Sc2 since last summer and decided to get into Dota2 via TI, I don't think that DotA2 has ruined the casts for me. I think it's more like it takes more to be a good Dota2 caster compared to what it takes to be a good Sc2 caster, but that doesn't mean that I personally think that the Sc2 casters is bad. And since it's two different games, casters from both games are good in their own way.
Plus TI is the biggest Dota2 tournament, so of course they invite the best to cast that event
sc2 may arguably be more complex, but Dota is far more fun to watch. In the end, one is 1v1, the other is a 5v5. It's like tennis vs basketball. Even though the tennis player might be doing much more than any individual b-ball player, I like watching the latter far far more. That's also one reason I enjoy the commentators more. Even though I still find sc2 more fun to play.
Part of this is probably due to the fact that a DOTA 2 item is going to be used in a very direct way. For example: An Earthshaker picks up blink dagger - what's that for? It's so he can blink into the middle of a group of heroes and use his skill combo to unleash a lot of damage, that's the purpose.
Think of something for SC2: a player is getting the blink upgrade for his stalkers - what's that for? There isn't one single very obvious reason (not likely at least). You can now harass the enemy base easier, you can position your units around the map more easily and quickly, you will be more effective in battle, the upgrade directly 'counters' a specific unit such as the broodlord. So which are you going to say? Are you going to talk about every one of those possible scenarios? Not only would that take a lot of time, it seems silly to discuss all the possible reasons for getting an upgrade when none or all of those scenarios might happen.
So DOTA 2 casts may seem like they are far more informed but I doubt that's the case, the nature of the two games are simply different.
On September 04 2012 13:45 Salv wrote: Part of this is probably due to the fact that a DOTA 2 item is going to be used in a very direct way. For example: An Earthshaker picks up blink dagger - what's that for? It's so he can blink into the middle of a group of heroes and use his skill combo to unleash a lot of damage, that's the purpose.
Think of something for SC2: a player is getting the blink upgrade for his stalkers - what's that for? There isn't one single very obvious reason (not likely at least). You can now harass the enemy base easier, you can position your units around the map more easily and quickly, you will be more effective in battle, the upgrade directly 'counters' a specific unit such as the broodlord. So which are you going to say? Are you going to talk about every one of those possible scenarios? Not only would that take a lot of time, it seems silly to discuss all the possible reasons for getting an upgrade when none or all of those scenarios might happen.
So DOTA 2 casts may seem like they are far more informed but I doubt that's the case, the nature of the two games are simply different.
You probably used the worst comparison I've ever seen. Just because an ES picks up a blink dagger - doesn't mean it's sole purpose is to blink into the enemy and ulti.
It can be used to escape, position the hero for nice fissures, chasing heroes, grabbing runes, denying creeps and so, so much more.
You are right, I don't see why people are comparing the depth of both games. There's no reason to. However, comparing casters is a different story.
On September 04 2012 13:28 WindWolf wrote: As someone who has watched Sc2 since last summer and decided to get into Dota2 via TI, I don't think that DotA2 has ruined the casts for me. I think it's more like it takes more to be a good Dota2 caster compared to what it takes to be a good Sc2 caster, but that doesn't mean that I personally think that the Sc2 casters is bad. And since it's two different games, casters from both games are good in their own way.
Plus TI is the biggest Dota2 tournament, so of course they invite the best to cast that event
Actually they practically invited every caster known to Dota 2 LOL.
Dota2 is actually a very simple game in comparison to SC2. There is one map, one set of items, and one hero pool and it never changes. The only thing a caster has to know about IS PICKS. If they don't know that then they really have no place commenting on the game. SC2 there are about 100 million maps and hundred different builds. The game changes on the fly constantly while in dota2 the concept is very simple. Get farmed, kill heroes, push lanes, deny heroes from farming. And these are accomplished in mostly singular ways. The meta shift in Dota2 is a lot less pronounced than in SC2 and the casters knowledge doesn't really have to expand ever. Teams in Dota have VERY clearly defined play styles and rarely mix it up to the extent sc2 players do. It would be like casting BETA Idra every game. You could just close your eyes and recite his last game and you'd probably be pretty close.
From this statement I can tell you've never played Dota or Dota 2. So I just didn't bother reading the rest of your post.
I've played dota for about 5 years, dota 2 only for a few months, but I have plenty of experience with the game. In comparison it is much simpler just by the fact there are limited options in the proscene on what they can do against their opponents. There is plenty of other builds and creative shit you can do, but in the competitive scene, with the players as good as they are, you are limited to what works, how you can win. Odds are you aren't going to see a battle ogre in TI2 or a Nyx Assassin on a winning team -_-
I'm not saying it's a garbage game that's easier to play or is less complex, it's just at the pro level it's a much simpler beast to cast. The nature of said scene streamlines the game where you don't have to have the same extensive knowledge of the game you might have to in SC2. And like I said there's one map. Once you know all the map features you don't have to learn ANYTHING else about the map, ever. Seriously.
And if you continued reading you would have probably read the part where I talked about the things that make it complex. The parts that are actually harder to cast than sc2.
For casting however, you don't have to deal with a lot of it. And you don't hear the same akward casts that you get with SC2 by the nature of the whole filling dead game space. The action starts the second the horn blasts and 5 people jet down to bottom rune for first blood.
Don't tell me I didn't you didn't bother reading the rest of my post if you're going to post yourself, because then I just really lose all respect for you and your argument.
On September 04 2012 13:45 Salv wrote: Part of this is probably due to the fact that a DOTA 2 item is going to be used in a very direct way. For example: An Earthshaker picks up blink dagger - what's that for? It's so he can blink into the middle of a group of heroes and use his skill combo to unleash a lot of damage, that's the purpose.
Think of something for SC2: a player is getting the blink upgrade for his stalkers - what's that for? There isn't one single very obvious reason (not likely at least). You can now harass the enemy base easier, you can position your units around the map more easily and quickly, you will be more effective in battle, the upgrade directly 'counters' a specific unit such as the broodlord. So which are you going to say? Are you going to talk about every one of those possible scenarios? Not only would that take a lot of time, it seems silly to discuss all the possible reasons for getting an upgrade when none or all of those scenarios might happen.
So DOTA 2 casts may seem like they are far more informed but I doubt that's the case, the nature of the two games are simply different.
You probably used the worst comparison I've ever seen. Just because an ES picks up a blink dagger - doesn't mean it's sole purpose is to blink into the enemy and ulti.
It can be used to escape, position the hero for nice fissures, chasing heroes, grabbing runes, denying creeps and so, so much more.
You are right, I don't see why people are comparing the depth of both games. There's no reason to. However, comparing casters is a different story.
On September 04 2012 13:28 WindWolf wrote: As someone who has watched Sc2 since last summer and decided to get into Dota2 via TI, I don't think that DotA2 has ruined the casts for me. I think it's more like it takes more to be a good Dota2 caster compared to what it takes to be a good Sc2 caster, but that doesn't mean that I personally think that the Sc2 casters is bad. And since it's two different games, casters from both games are good in their own way.
Plus TI is the biggest Dota2 tournament, so of course they invite the best to cast that event
Actually they practically invited every caster known to Dota 2 LOL.
Not every caster, but certainly most of the well-known casters.
Dota2 is actually a very simple game in comparison to SC2. There is one map, one set of items, and one hero pool and it never changes. The only thing a caster has to know about IS PICKS. If they don't know that then they really have no place commenting on the game. SC2 there are about 100 million maps and hundred different builds. The game changes on the fly constantly while in dota2 the concept is very simple. Get farmed, kill heroes, push lanes, deny heroes from farming. And these are accomplished in mostly singular ways. The meta shift in Dota2 is a lot less pronounced than in SC2 and the casters knowledge doesn't really have to expand ever. Teams in Dota have VERY clearly defined play styles and rarely mix it up to the extent sc2 players do. It would be like casting BETA Idra every game. You could just close your eyes and recite his last game and you'd probably be pretty close.
From this statement I can tell you've never played Dota or Dota 2. So I just didn't bother reading the rest of your post.
I've played dota for about 5 years, dota 2 only for a few months, but I have plenty of experience with the game. In comparison it is much simpler just by the fact there are limited options in the proscene on what they can do against their opponents. There is plenty of other builds and creative shit you can do, but in the competitive scene, with the players as good as they are, you are limited to what works, how you can win. Odds are you aren't going to see a battle ogre in TI2 or a Nyx Assassin on a winning team -_-
I'm not saying it's a garbage game that's easier to play or is less complex, it's just at the pro level it's a much simpler beast to cast. The nature of said scene streamlines the game where you don't have to have the same extensive knowledge of the game you might have to in SC2. And like I said there's one map. Once you know all the map features you don't have to learn ANYTHING else about the map, ever. Seriously.
And if you continued reading you would have probably read the part where I talked about the things that make it complex. The parts that are actually harder to cast than sc2.
For casting however, you don't have to deal with a lot of it. And you don't hear the same akward casts that you get with SC2 by the nature of the whole filling dead game space. The action starts the second the horn blasts and 5 people jet down to bottom rune for first blood.
Don't tell me I didn't you didn't bother reading the rest of my post if you're going to post yourself, because then I just really lose all respect for you and your argument.
Not sure what you mean by the last part but ok.
You contradict yourself by saying that the game is much simpler, but still complex at the same time.
Limited... how? Sure, there are only a few favored lineups for strats eg. Pushing, ganking, defensive, turtle etc. But that doesn't dictate the gameplay which follows. Just because team A goes for a lineup that suits turtling - doesn't mean they will turtle the entire game. Each 'strat' can be played multiple ways. You talk about map like it's the make or break of a game. But that's like saying once you know what all the units do in SC2, then you don't ever have to learn anything about those units again, ever.
That's stupid because things change always. You learn things daily. New things are discovered that are shown and not shown. Also just because you saw a NA Na'Vi and they got stomped with it - doesn't mean it's any less effective. They just got out played and in turn, played it wrong. The casters clearly said, NA is not a hero that scales well in a tri-lane. It's true, if you play NA you need that level 6 asap, with a bit of farm for those insane ganks. However, NA was so underfarmed and under leveled that it couldn't do shit, especially considering it was pretty much a hard support.
Except you need to learn every hero matchup, lane combination, item build, skill build, picking/banning objectives depending on each team, potential lane swaps, hero mechanics vs. other heroes, item mechanics vs. every spell, and THEN that doesn't even include paying attention to a team fight with 10 heroes blasting off everything and what went wrong in their positioning with any critical mistakes or big plays. Honestly, I doubt you've paid much attention at all.
On September 04 2012 09:59 Al Bundy wrote: The thing is, from my personal experience, the Dota / LoL commentators don't explain anything. You hear them talking about a ton of stuff that no one can understand except people who actually play the game. That makes the whole spectating experience very frustrating. Everytime I try to watch a dota game, I'm like "what is the purpose of this item? What is this spell?". At the end of the day, I wish the commentators were aware of the casual spectators.
Isnt that with every sport. Which is why you typically see the Color Commentator and the analyst, to kind of get the hi level stuff, the low level stuff and excitement. The best example of this would be in UFC, where they have one guy talking about the moves, what should happen who will do what, and stats etc. Then another guy who makes it exciting, obviously they arnt set in stone roles, they take each other places here and there, but you get the point.
I also disagree the casters that I have listen to, which is a lot, do a great job of explaining the game, I esp love the tobi, syndarin(however the fuck you spell it) combo. They have to be one of the best casting combos in all of esports.
SC2 commentators are similar to DotA 2 commentators in that
1. They both know the names/abilities of all units/buildings/spells (SC2) and heroes/items/spells (DotA 2). This is a given for any commentator in either game.
2. There is a general understanding of strategies and builds (SC2) and hero roles and item builds (DotA 2).
3. Highly analytic casters such as Artosis/D'Apollo and Synderen have the knowledge and experience (all play at high level) to understand what though processes are happening, how players will react, recognizing strategies before normal people realize whats happening. (I equate Tobi to Tasteless somewhat, both know a ton and can make the occasional analytical call if need be, but specialize by choice in shoutcasting).
SC2 commentators are different to DotA 2 commentators in that
1. Casters in SC2 have only to focus on 2 players, and a maximum of 2 races in the game. Dota 2 casters must cover 10 players, all playing 10 individual heroes. Obviously, SC2 commentators can be more in-depth about each race and player than Dota 2 casters can be about each player and hero.
2. SC2 casters must have a working knowledge of anywhere from 6-15 maps at any given time, and as such tend to categorize maps as simply "big" or "open". There's no way to gain a high in depth knowledge of some maps without playing 100+ games on it, and most maps aren't even in the ladder pool. Dota 2 casters have only 1 map to focus on, and therefore know it in and out. In addition, so does every player (we assume). Therefore talking about the map is pretty much pointless every game, it never changes. Also, because there are so many heroes and dynamics, it can constantly be used in new, innovative ways.
In conclusion, DotA commentators need to focus more on the wide array of heroes, item builds, and 5 player oriented aspects of the game, while SC2 commentators focus more on the matchup, map, and strategy.
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
During an event league between 2 of the open seasons (probably it was team inhouse league or some shit like that), there was some "KOOSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI" in 3 seconds or something like that (the colossus was focused by Terran and survived the battle with 1 HP while all T units get killed). However I heard no big quotes except that.
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
And I disagree with Qbek, Tobi and Synderen are very knowledgeable, far beyond what is often seen even in the upper echelons of matchmaking. It is hardly at silver or gold level.
Tobi's Black Holes and Ravages are really hardcore though.
You are completely right. Allthough some of the "knowledge" from these casters you stated (like how items or heros work or such) is pretty common to any Dota player, their analysis and understanding was always spot on and way superior to sc2 castings. I feel like d.apollo is a good example of how casters can improve cause the few times a year I see him he always seems to be getting better, but overall you are completely right.
I just think Dota 2 lends itself to casting more easily. There's so many heroes in Dota, and the metagame switches constantly, so the casters will always have a "different" game to cast, new situations specific to the game etc. In SC2 is doesn't work like that, it's very rigid. If it's a TvZ, one of maybe 5 things can happen, 3 of which are unusual. The casters cast many games each day, most of them extremely similar. In dota 2, a single different hero changes the casting experience totaly (for example, look at game 1 and game 2 of the international 2 final. VERY similar teams, but that dragon knight pick completely changed the game up.)
As was stated before though, knowing all the heroes, all their abilities and all the items, and knowing which builds are orthodox/unorthodox is gold-level knowledge in dota 2, if even that. It seems like a ridiculous amount of information if you haven't played the game, but it's actually learned fairly quickly. I knew nothing about dota when I got the beta (had only played dota 1 a few times many years ago) and after 1-2 months of casual playing, I knew most of it.
That said, the casting WAS extremely good in the international... I was especially impressed by the final, because up until this point, I've felt there were two dota 2 casters worth mentioning: Tobi Wan and Purge, and I've never liked Tobi because of his voice and how I don't feel he analyses the game clearly enough. However, he has seemed like THE caster, so I was shocked when he wasn't casting the final, and even more chocked when I realized it was THE best dota 2 casting I've heard.
The problem with PLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAGUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU is that our casters have attached to that word all by itself and interpreted it as "Oh so i should just scream words during my cast and it creates excitement and emotion", without understanding or accepting everything else leading up to it, surrounding, encompassing, and following, it.
I agree that a large contingient of foreign SC2 casters leave much to be desired. But beyond their enthusiasm, are Dota2 casters great 'communicators of the game'? I had no experience, was watching, could see flashy lights, people hitting eachother and dying, and intermittent screams. I did not learn anything about Dota2 because the casters weren't trying to communicate the game to a complete newbie at MOABs. Granted that's not their goal, but for introductory exposure shouldn't it be. For BW, either you want an English cast because you're not comfortable watching the Korean and aren't completely confident in what's going on, or you can't stand the English casts as they're too simple (you understand more than them) and prefer the Korean. Thing is though, the English cast is only for casual viewers and simple thrills, its easy to out-grow. If you really love the game and want to know more about how it plays, then train, study, get better at it!
I believe its a problem of SC2 English casters being 'casters' first, and trying to get some game-specific knoledge second. So when they work casting the game, hours a day, go figure they won't be super duper passionate to do additional work at getting better at understanding and playing it. You know, it's hard being perfect/me (:
On one hand, you need to be very experienced and knoledgeable about the game, capable of, at any time, recognizing their strategy, predicting what comes next, the potential pitfalls and counters, and being able to string together pieces from the timeline of the game to explain how they got to where they are (e.g. 'CCfirst TvT with gas steal means no gas so more vulnerable to mass wraiths leads to SCV losses to later expansion, therefore behind' all in one thought), and who is leading. That's game knowledge, and I believe its kinda pointless trying to be a caster unless you've watched a ridic ammount of ProGames, know the players and their history, have years of game experience and learning from the best, and have at least once been reasonably compettitive. Being a player is such an integral part of understanding the game as a spectator, because you know exactly how painful it is to loose that many SCVs, and you have experience to know when a game is lost, so you can empathize with what you're watching.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, is the caster's technical ability. Preparation and little bits of trivia and statistics are very nice flourishes to casts, but they're not actually essential, and when you're working a lot they're exactly the sort of thing you get an underling to calculate for you. What I can give credit for in SC2 English casters is (for the most part) their noteworthy technical ability; they sound professionally trained. It sounds like an exciting game where players throw shit at eachother, then one wins, just don't listent too intently to what they're saying or you may find it shallow, dull, or facepalm-worthy.
They're good at that, but sometimes (especially amateur casters) can 'sound very annoying' and not deliver on the performance side. Starting out, without people willing to say 'u sound bad' you need to be very self-aware, even self-concious, to 'just know' how your voice sounds (e.g. bored, nerdy, judgemental, nasal, dull, childish etc.) and modify it to sound more professional. It just takes experience, notably, social experience, and social experience pertaining directly to trying to communicate the game. You can have the coolest thoughts and insights (see that one-thing leading to another from abve) but if you cannot clearly, slowly, but succinctly enunciate that thought, you are worse than a resounding gong. Practicing explaining a live game to people completely un-versed in it (IRL people); in which case, you really need to target what you're saying and explain it on a very simple level. You don't have to use the technical or actual terms for everything, to get across the main gist of their strategy (e.g. fake expo into bust), but a main problem with casters is that they can't adequately tone the level of analysis down (for newbies) or waaay (for their peers and superiors).
Whatever, I'm gonna write a guide about this. Lol ,then people will demand I show evidence of my expertise :/ Nevermind, I'll write a 'suggestions for new casters', which would actually be aimed at most current casters too (:
wahah that's awesome, I think it really matters that it's a 5x5 game instead of a 1v1, you get a lot more exited for good plays, as it's done as a team, and not just the skills of 1 player
Dota2 casting reminds me much more of original sports in that sense, like Soccer
I am in the exact same boat as OP except minus the LoL experience. Maybe it hasn't ruined SC2 casting for me... because I already rarely watch SC2, but it opened the door to DOTA 2 where I had been resistant about giving that genre a chance.
The casting and overall production was very well done, and I enjoyed the games a lot; though I was actively looking up heroes' abilities and trying to understand as much as I could would took some work. I'm planning on giving DOTA 2 a try, and I figure once you understand the game the high-level matches become better to watch.
I feel where you're coming from OP. I feel close to exactly the same. Have been moping about it since the start of SC2, the lack of in depth casters.
There are a few who's capable of it, but when money is involved, I think they want to tend to Bronze, Silver and non player SC2'ers.
When you take people who were completly clueless, like that guy who wears the hat, that swede guy, and quite a few others. They came in, and sucked ass for a year, now they're mediocre, but it's mostly regurgitating crap they've seen or heard before, no intuitive feel, nothing in depth, just bleh.
I think Artosis and Day9 can do it if they change their state and go in for it, I think Incontrol can be pretty sick as well, but feels like they're holding back, and just want to mediocre it. Like they somehow a little afraid to let go, afraid to totally geek out 100%.
At least that's my feel on it, and yes, I loved the old korean casts, back when I gamed sc1 Id always prefer korean casters than to English lol.
I hope this somehow can get the casters we have to step up their game, stop with the silly jokes, what they had for lunch, or what they'd do, or just talking for the sake of talking. And indulge, apply themself to casting and own it up. Not for subcription, fame, money, that shit will all come when you become amazing.
Yay, ok, hope I didn't come out too harsh. Feel a bit bad bashing people.
Dota was released in 2005. SC2 was released in 2010. I don't know how you expect one to be as solved as the other. Go listen to a BW cast - you'll see an incredible depth of knowledge.
On September 04 2012 09:59 Al Bundy wrote: The thing is, from my personal experience, the Dota / LoL commentators don't explain anything. You hear them talking about a ton of stuff that no one can understand except people who actually play the game. That makes the whole spectating experience very frustrating. Everytime I try to watch a dota game, I'm like "what is the purpose of this item? What is this spell?". At the end of the day, I wish the commentators were aware of the casual spectators.
Being able to watch the games and listen to the cast from inside the Dota2 client was really handy for this. I don't know shit about Dota, but I could hover over the items and skills to figure out what they did during the games.
Agree with you OP, the casting was superb and I thoroughly enjoyed the tournament. =)
Someone in this thread raised a good point though, maybe the cast can be made a little more casual-friendly by having the casters give a 2-3 line explanation for items like blink dagger and force staff.
As someone who has played Dota for years but never really watched, TI2 was amazing. The production, games, and especially the casters were all top notch. Watching the games I really got reminded of the korean BW commentators. Ex:
(You should watch this not only because the commentary is so good but also because its an amazing game from Boxer when he was at the end of his BW career)
There is just so much more insight and analysis than in current SC2 casts. Frequently the casters aren't on the mark and have to backtrack from some prediction they made that is totally wrong. I dunno if its because the game is still "immature" so players do the wrong thing sometimes or if the casters' knowledge of the game is lacking but it definitely seems like the casts in Dota are much more insightful.
I think you might just enjoy MOBAS games as a spectator. My experience with league casters is that they aren't really any better or worse then sc2 caster, although I do appreciate that league casters tend to stay on point a lot more often. I think tastosis, particularly artosis, are the best casters I have seen for either game. No DOTA experience however.
Having played a lot of league, I know that league casters really either have no idea what is really going on, or they don't speak of it. Just like sc2.
To be fair, it is easier to seem very knowing to someone completely new as opposed to someone who (presumably) knows a lot about sc2. But yes, I was impressed with what I saw, and all of the casters in the international were very talented.
I have to agree with this.....I had my favorite SC2 casters....and then discovered Tobi. It's like a whole different level of casting, and that's just Tobi, who while very enthusiastic, tends to be wrong fairly often. After discovering the other Dota casters like Synderen and Luminous, it was game over. I'm going to guess that part of it is just that the game itself is so much easier to cast and fun to watch than SC2 since so much is going on, but still it's a noticeable difference in casting quality other than the very, very top tier SC2 casters of all time. Even purge, the "pub caster" of dota 2(almost a husky, I would say) is very knowledgable and just a higher level of caster, period.
And then the International 2. Blizzard should take notes. Hell, EVERYONE organizing esports events should take notes, because it was incredible on every level. The iG vs na'Vi series in the semi-finals was one of the most epic series I have ever seen in any game. The oft replayed failed gank attempt by iG in game 2 will probably go down as one of the greatest single video game moments ever. As a matter of fact, I'm going to watch it again right now.
To be honest I find the casters of both games very similar, its just that SC2 is very new hence there are not many ex-professional players turned caster. Think of the current dota 2 casters as people like Idra/Grubby casting.
EPT
saying it's impressive that the casters know every hero and item is equivalent to being impressed the sc2 casters know the entire tech tree for every race, sure the dota2 database might be a little bigger but honestly do you think it would be hard to memorize a little more? it comes with the territory and is pretty much impossible to not pick up after you player/watched the game enough. Not caster bashing. It's not an easy job but i would say they are definitely not superior to sc2 casters at all.
