|
![[image loading]](http://www.usmc81.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/PocketSunTzu.gif)
First of all, I just spent an hour writing this blog post, and after I pressed update it required me to log in and re-type the whole thing over again. If you're gong to have a blog section here on TeamLiquid, at least keep people logged in enough to write their posts. Or at least let people choose the option to be permanently logged in after they first register. Thanks.
My first post will be for the Heart of the Swarm Contest for MLG Anaheim (I think I'm allowed to post until the 20th).
Although HotS had some really cool new units and features, I still have doubts about the viability of two particular things being introduced in HotS:
1.) Swarm Host
2.) Entomb
For those of you who haven't had a chance to take a look at the new features in HotS, there's qute a few excellent updates that are very much necessary. Zerg and Protoss gain the ability to counter highly defended situations and break sieges. Zerg can benefit from the charging capability of Ultralisks, a skill that infinitely increases the usefulness of these units in the late game, and the skill has good synergy with the general Zerg tactic of swarming the enemy (particularly useful when combined with banelings). Protoss can use Tempests effectively as Broodlords to attack well fortified (and most likely Terran) defenses.
However, one new Zerg unit, the Swarm Host, gave off the impression that it was somewhat of a lost child. Swarm Hosts, conceptually, can be used offensively and defensively: They periodically produce a number of small units that attack, which can either be used as something similar to a Siege Tank defensively as a way to break contains at certain points in the game, or to contain opponents. Unfortunately, I find Vipers to essentially take on the same exact roles; Vipers can grab units to both break contains and enemy defenses, essentially whittling down the opponent's forces in the much the same way Swarm Hosts seemed to be designed to. Similarly, the Viper's plague swarm-like skill lets zerglings and banelings become extremely effective against ground armies, which helps to make Zerg trade more effectively, especially in situations where the Zerg does not have a distinct economic advantage.
In response to MCDayC below, who brings up a very good point, allow me to insert an extra paragraph explaining my reasoning for why the Swarm Host does not particularly solve anything from the perspective of Zerg strategy at large. Generally, cheap Hatcheries and creep spread mean Zerg will be able to quickly expand and contest for map control when they decide to play an economic game. In these cases, I think opponents will generally harass the Zerg to prevent them from being able to macro well, or attempt to play highly defensively until their deathball can simply destroy the Zerg. In either case, very rarely will Zerg need to keep up sustained pressure beyond Zerglings, Mutalisks, and eventually Broodlords. In this case, the sustained pressure is equally applicable by units that are currently in play. Furthermore, Swarm Hosts, weak as they are, can be easily countered when pushed out with invisibility detection. Even if the Zerg's entire army is backing up the Swarm Hosts, there's no real point to sitting on a maxed out Zerg army waiting for your opponents to come out in the first place, especially against, say, a Protoss army that will demolish your forces if you're not careful.
On the other hand, Entomb, the skill that Oracles get, is potentially game-breaking in certain situations. The Entomb ability allows the Oracle to cast several bubbles over multiple mineral patches in an AoE, preventing workers from mining directly from the patches. These bubbles have a limited duration and HP; when the duration fades or they are killed, workers can return to mining. This mechanism, however, can be devastating in certain situations.
Here's an example:
Protoss versus Terran in a late game scenario. Both sides have full tech trees, production facilities, and four bases. However, each player only has one base mining because the other three are out.
Protoss is using a Zealot/Archon/High Templar composition while Terran is largely Bio with Medivacs.
Protoss, having produced Oracles for Entomb harassment, can threaten Terran well into the late game.
This forces Terran to make choices. Three likely options are:
1.) Produce some Vikings to hunt down the Oracles, taking up food and making units that won't be particularly useful in actual combat.
2.) Keep marines in the mineral line, which is only as effective as how quickly they can DPS down the bubbles. This also takes up a small amount of food away from your main army.
3.) Go on the offensive to try and harass themselves or defeat the enemy. If Terran chooses to harass, Protoss may likely have cannons for defense which take up no food.
Clearly, forcing your opponent to attack you when they're desperate and you can choose the location is advantageous for the Protoss. Terran doesn't have many options available here, and none of them are particularly satisfactory. In this case, I think Entomb is far too strong of a harassment skill, especially when Protoss have Tempests that they can produce to possibly harass enemy mineral lines. If another viable, mid-game harassment is necessary, I think making Warp Prisms even more viable than they are now is a good choice, especially since they were initially designed with strong synergy with warp-ins. Perhaps buff warp prisms slightly, or maybe extend their warp range. Another option is to give them an extra skill such as regenerating 50% of the shields of nearby Protoss units, similar to how Medivacs can heal. Since Protoss shields are generally not upgraded and weak, this may be a not-so-game-changing option available to provide more warp-in harassment opportunities.
In conclusion, I want to say that HotS addresses some of the problems seen in today's metagame. However, a few kinks may still need to be worked out. Here, I have delineated possible problems with two particular new features, and I hope that my thoughts may contribute to further dialogue and balancing of units.
  
|
United Kingdom14464 Posts
How the Viper do the Swarm host's job better?
It can yank 1 unit at a time, and has no way to do damage to them. That makes it superior in some ways, against a high value target, as long as the Viper is supported. But I don't see it being able to be good at sustained pressure, in the same way the swarm host should be, energy based abilities are much more burst, whereas the Swarm host will be able to pump out units for free, consistently, slowly whittling away at entrenched positions, or at least forcing a response from the opposition.
|
Thanks for your response. In my original version of this post, I included an extended analysis covering the very idea of sustainable pressure and siege as Zerg (my main race). I have updated the post to reflect my reasoning on this; hope you'll find time to read it.
|
I've not seen the oracle in action, but couldn't the Terran just put missile turrets in his mineral lines? They take up no food, they are cheaper than cannons, and they'd kill the oracle without detracting from the main army.
|
When I played around with the unit, it was able to cast Entomb from a very long range and the unit itself could be controlled to take only a few hits. However, you're right in that if Entomb had to be cast from a short distance, it would be very vulnerable to missle turrets. Good point.
However, missle turrents can't attack ground, which doesn't solve the problem of the bubbles being hard to remove for Terran without having some sort of unit placed defensively.
|
Well planetary fortress + turrets at your expansion should take care of this.
|
On June 14 2012 19:43 HTX wrote:
Well planetary fortress + turrets at your expansion should take care of this.
I don't know about PF nat, but PF 3rd sounds much more useful in TvP.
|
Regarding the Oracle's Entomb, HTX has half of the answer there.
Planetaries at further expansions will definitely prevent much harassment from the Oracle, paired with a Missile Turret will keep the Oracle from coming back after a few trips.
The second half of the story is the Terran composition. I feel with the new factory units available to Terran, a late game composition (especially vs Chargelots) will steer away from Bio, perhaps with Battle Hellions and/or Widow Mines. Paired with Ghosts for EMP vs Templar and Archons, the composition feels as if it will have more muscle to jostle a better positional advantage, with a handful of regular, speed Hellions to poke at expansions or even better still: Offensive Nukes.
Of course, all of this drivel of mine is completely theoretical as I haven't tested any HotS. Your opinion is far more educated than mine.
|
On June 14 2012 20:24 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 19:43 HTX wrote:
Well planetary fortress + turrets at your expansion should take care of this. I don't know about PF nat, but PF 3rd sounds much more useful in TvP.
You have standing army at your natural so there is no need for an planetary.
|
I have to agree on your view on the swarm host. I really cannot imagine many situations where they will be more useful than other zerg units, but maybe I'm wrong and progamers will prove us wrong...
I don't agree on entomb at all, though. A single well-placed turrent will most likely be enough in most cases. Worst case scenario: you need two turrets or a viking (which will be useful against collossi).
On a side note, an expensive, late-game unit like the tempest will most likely not be used for harrassement purposes...
btw I've never been logged out of TL in the past 3 years. If I remember correctly, there is a "keep me logged in" box when you sign in. Also your browser can save the password, too. Just do both and you shouldn't ever be logged out of TL. The only thing that happens to me is "bad request" when trying to post something but I've been too long in the post screen. However, in this case TL saves whatever you wrote.
|
On June 14 2012 20:24 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 19:43 HTX wrote:
Well planetary fortress + turrets at your expansion should take care of this. I don't know about PF nat, but PF 3rd sounds much more useful in TvP.
PF nat is impossible, you can't win games with it.
|
Turrets. Without n.
Entomb is just a dumb ability, just when I thought they couldn't make more retarded stuff in SC2 they come up with freezing up minerals, what a joke.
I seriously believe that if they want SC2 to be taken seriously, entomb won't make it to the final release.
|
I could easily write a post that had precisely contradictory arguments to yours.
You know what the measure of a unit is? That it provokes a response out of your enemy. What is the point of a unit if the opponent approaches the game in the exact same way? That is a worthless unit. I invest resources into a unit to harass you; you invest resources to deflect the harassment. The dynamic between harass-defend is considerably smaller here than in the cases of terran drops and mutalisks. This is partly speculation because of final numbers, but the demo at MLG had workers alone killing the bubbles in fairly short order. Annoying, yes; it's supposed to be. Game breaking, no.
You've missed the point of the swarm host. If you march up to the terran base with 10 swarm hosts and die to 12 tanks (I full expect this to happen because that's what zerg did with ultras, broods, infestors and hydras), then you're doing it wrong. The purpose of the swarm host is for zerg to apply pressure when it already has the advantage. Blizzard is addressing the common scenario where zerg has just defeated a terran army but is unable to end the game because it would be unwise to attack marines up a ramp and behind a depot wall. The swarm host is there to do damage or force a response from the terran when moving out from behind its hidey-hole would be disadvantageous.
|
@SC_Ghost and HTX
I can see a Planetary Fortress potentially being useful here, but with 20 DPS on it and lack of any other ground defense, you'd be spending 150 gas in a late-game scenario mining off of one base. Kind of huge there.
Also, you can't just keep your army in your base because that gives Protoss leeway to expand and contain/pressure you, especially if you're playing on a larger map.
@ggrg
Thanks for the tip.
@Jerubaal
Yes, you can kill bubbles faster by microing the workers against patches of bubbles, but then you have to take each one down one by one. Unfortunately I don't have the numbers (just like you) on the exact HP/DPS ratios of bubbles vs. most defenses in the game, but think about how easy it is to repeatedly cast Entomb with a full mana Oracle in, say, a Gold level game where a lot of players won't have the micro or EPM to defend well. You don't even need to micro at all with the Oracle; it's a one click. But for players on the receiving end, it can ruin the game for lower level play.
Since the Swarm Host is Lair tech and the Siege Tank can be considered mid-tier as well, I simply don't see how it can help much in those situations. Zerg can always expand as an alternative, and by taking the economic advantage threaten with higher tech and Vipers (also Lair tech), which then renders the Swarm Host somewhat of a transitional unit that might, at best, be played within a small window of time during the game.
Terran are supposed to have extremely strong defenses, which I don't really think ruins the game. If you're at the point where you have to use Swarm Hosts, why not just go Vipers, baneling bust with Blinding Cloud, and pull a couple of siege tanks while you're at it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
