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More and more Koreans compete in foreign events such as MLG, IPL or Dreamhack. With this, their overwhelming performance (thus placements) at live events becomes a greater concern for the foreign fans. Foreigners seem unable to sustain the Korean dominance.
Status quo and what's bad
At the upcoming MLG Spring Championship only three out of 16 competitors from the pool play are non-Koreans. As Grubby and Socke are said to get crushed in their groups, Stephano seems to be the only foreigner hope to make an appearance in later rounds of the Championship Bracket. If this development continues and nothing else significantly changes about the status quo, viewer numbers will eventually drastically decrease. But why? To understand this, one must think about the particular reasons for why you watch a Starcraft 2 event stream in the first place. On the one hand, you probably want to see extraordinary good players duke it out against each other in a highly competitive format. You hope to see the best games possible, incredible reactions, blunt moves and overwhelming macro. These reasons appeal to your strategical, analytical nature. But this is not all to it. Think about why most people watch regular sports. They usually cheer for one team and want to see it win, no matter what. For example, if I see Socke play against Heart I really want to see Socke win and it doesn't really matter to me whether he plays superior or not. Well, it's cool if he plays incredibly good, but I will be satisfied if he wins in any case. It's because I know him better, I talked to him in person, i see him in SotG (or the German version) and he presents himself as a really nice, chilly guy. Every day. It's called emotional attachment. Since all of our decisions and behavior are based on emotions rather than rational thought this is by far the more important aspect than just seeing cool games. And from my example: I have no freaking idea of who Heart is except that he's a pretty good Korean SC2 player. And I have no affiliations whatsoever with him. I just don't care whether it's Heart or LosirA who wins, GanZi or Symbol. Well, maybe I want to see someone win, so that I can complain about balance, but that's about it. I cannot relate to any of them because they fail to present themselves to me outside the game.
What needs to change
The most obvious solution would be: You foreigners, practice harder, get better, compete, perform, sustain, win. But this will hardly be achieved in the next years as eSports is a slowely developing process and not about to change in some months allowing a ton of full time players.
What I honestly hope is that, with the time, more and more Koreans follow the lead of MKP or MC who are nearly the only ones being able to present their personality to the foreign scene. I remember MKP dancing around the stage or MC in a dinosaur costume giving the most hilarious interviews ever. I hope the other Koreans will notice that they have to learn English to be able to communicate with the to-be-fans directly and not only through some translator which is a huge detachment. You just cannot translate emotions. I hope the Koreans will learn to show their emotions. That this is really important to us foreigners. Like a HerO almost crying on stage, visibly shaking as he walks towards the interviwer. Like an MC, jumping into the crowd giving high-fives to everyone.
This has to happen to enhance our viewing experience, to attach us emotionally and to be able to truly cheer for a Korean with all our heart (no pun intended).
 
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Why not just limit the numbers of Koreans?
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I think it's important that the players are marketed towards the western audience. I know nothing worth knowing about any Korean player even though I've been watching all western tournaments and a lot of the GSL. Why is that?
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On June 06 2012 21:16 haduken wrote:
Why not just limit the numbers of Koreans?
Because I think that this severely hinders the development of eSports as a whole.
On June 06 2012 21:25 Jinsho wrote:
I think it's important that the players are marketed towards the western audience. I know nothing worth knowing about any Korean player even though I've been watching all western tournaments and a lot of the GSL. Why is that?
Because the casters don't know anything else themselves, I guess.
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A thread with the same topic appeared in sc2 general.
The tone also reminds me of the thread about foreigners stealing Korean women.
You know what to do :> .
On a serious note, exceptions would be pretty unprofessional, and I can also just say 'play harder' to foreigners. Everything else would be unfair for the koreans if they are truly better.
A solution with a completely different approach would be a foreigners league, but that's not nice either.
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That on the one hand, yes. On the other hand it's probably also not their job to tell the player's story in the two minutes before the game starts. It's probably the team's job? Or the tournament organisers' job? 2GD brought it up on his show a while ago, but certainly things like this could use a little more thought.
if SK is paying e.g. MC to come to the tournaments, maybe they should market him to the western audience rather than ride on his rather niche appeal as a past GSL champion. Who watches the GSL except for fans really deep into SC2? Don't they want to market him to a wider audience than that? Increase his fanbase?
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They're all the same people as everyone else around us, they just don't speak the same language so the effort must be made to facilitate communication and understanding. Then maybe we wouldn't have people switching off after bracket play because a bunch of unknowns are playing for the final 8 spots yet again and all you know are their names and the fact that Artosis thinks "they're soooo goooooood".
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On June 06 2012 21:39 Jinsho wrote:
They're all the same people as everyone else around us, they just don't speak the same language so the effort must be made to facilitate communication and understanding. Then maybe we wouldn't have people switching off after bracket play because a bunch of unknowns are playing for the final 8 spots yet again and all you know are their names and the fact that Artosis thinks "they're soooo goooooood".
Yes! It's not only the job of the Koreans to present themselves but also our job to give them the proper opportunities and to actively engage in trying to communicate and understand each other. Well said.
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Amusing thread. Who actually believed that foreigners would stand a chance in the long run?
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The Spanish football league "La Liga" has a rule to counter this specific thing, they only allow X amount of foreign players on a team, i dont remember how many but i know theres a limit that is atleast below 5 or something. A rule like this could be put into place somehow.
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On June 06 2012 21:58 unkkz wrote:
The Spanish football league "La Liga" has a rule to counter this specific thing, they only allow X amount of foreign players on a team, i dont remember how many but i know theres a limit that is atleast below 5 or something. A rule like this could be put into place somehow.
German football leauges do have this also. But I don't think it's the way to go for a developing sport but can rather be introduced to a well-established one.
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On June 06 2012 22:00 Cyberonic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 21:58 unkkz wrote:
The Spanish football league "La Liga" has a rule to counter this specific thing, they only allow X amount of foreign players on a team, i dont remember how many but i know theres a limit that is atleast below 5 or something. A rule like this could be put into place somehow. German football leauges do have this also. But I don't think it's the way to go for a developing sport but can rather be introduced to a well-established one.
It's a UEFA rule to allow some (5 ?) players from outside of UE in football teams roster. But I think the issue is totally different here since SC2 is global. There is no domestic league with as much viewership as MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, ...
If you must compare SC2 to any type of competitive sport, it would be tennis : tournaments all over the world, players from all over the world.
I think there's no problem with having a lot of Korean players to international events because these players are the best and the fact that they're Korean doesn't matter. There are more good Korean players because they developped professional Starcraft more that ten years ago and they have a real eSport industry with sponsors that are not from the PC world. In the USA or Europe, all sponsors are PC gear related or energy drinks / soda / snacks which feed most of us during gaming sessions. That's why there is more money in professional Starcraft in Korea than "in the west". Just as the college sports league and sports scolarships in the USA allows students who are good at a given sport to train in an almost professional environment during their studies and produce lots of great athletes in all sports. Their system is better, and the passion the whole nation puts in it allows these athletes to perform and be recognized for it. Nobody complains that there are more good American than Europeans basketball players. Nobody complains that Brazil and Argentina have a tradition of great football players. Hence, there is no problem with the fact that Korea produce great RTS players. If "foreign" teams want to be able to perform the way Korean teams do, they have to set up the same kind of infrastructure Korean teams do.
I think it's important to organize international tournaments, because it produce great games between the best players in the world. But if you want more "foreigners" in it, you should work to promote eSport in your country. Only a change of mentality regarding gamers and eSport from western countries can lead to this performance path. Because it will allow players to start training the efficient way, teams will have better sponsors and therefore the money to hire dedicated coaches, B-teamers/practice partners and so on. Because I doubt Razer and Steelseries, with the number of team they sponsor can give them as much money as LG or SKT do.
So :
Phase 1 : Change mentality about eSport in your country
Phase 2 : Wait 10 years
Phase 3 : Profit 
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Came into this blog thinking it was another ""QQ about korean dominance" blog
Find that its actually a well thought out sentiment of Koreans being more relate-able to us all, thus alleviating the issue while preserving the competition.
I like it ! More Korean personality please!
5/5
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@Opera: I completely agree. I also have no problem with many Koreans in a tournament per se. And it's not bad that they are Koreans at all. I just tried to point out that at the moment the players are mostly Koreans who show no emotions/personality thus are faceless compared to foreigners. I foreshadowed an impact on viewership which doesn't conflict with your post either.
I totally agree that the very best solution would be to step up eSports mentality in our own countries. But I think it's easier for the current dominant players (i.e. Koreans) to open themselves up a little to allow us to grasp a touch of their personality and be able to cheer for them to sustain viewer numbers. As I pointed out MKP and MC showed how it can work and I really love watching them not only because they're good but also because I believe I know and understand them better than other Koreans.
I thought about an example of a foreigner who is really good but fails to present himself (which would be comparable to point out that it's not the race/ethnic group etc but jus the emotional attachment aspect) but I cannot think of anyone.
@BreakfastBurrito: Thanks.
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Can't limit number of koreans without limiting number of americans and other countries
Additionally the language barrier prohibits Korean's pros (many at least) from interacting to any significant amount with the foreign fan base. Certain Korean pro's have managed to build up their brand by having consistently exciting games or unique styles but they cannot build a fan base from streaming behind their kpop (which many do not like)
TLO built his brand by having a unique style and by his personality and interaction with his stream viewers, similar to Sheth
I agree that when trying to improve generally you want to watch the famous korean top players but entertainment wise I want to watch players that i know and like and cheer for them
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Please don't derail the thread because you read some comment about limiting koreans that you disagree with. I do too, but I think the OP makes a much more well thought out and interesting point: how to get Koreans to become beloved like MKP or MC. Emotion goes a long way, but the problem is that if different Koreans come to each international event, we're still stuck like before. I mean, the reason we love Huk is because we see him go to many events where we follow him and his story and his emotions. If, say, Alive comes to one IPL, and never goes to another foreign event, but some other Korean replaces him, the problem is not that he's Korean so we can't connect to them. The problem becomes that we've only seen Alive once, and now he's replaced by another monstrously good "no-namer."
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I'd also add that many sports do actually give away places based on things other than merit - major tennis tournaments give wild cards to fan favourites who would otherwise not qualify, Ukraine and Poland are getting sports in the Euros, and so on. Furthermore, these sports don't really need to diversify because there is a natural pool of international talent. Sports where one country completely dominates tend to end up being restricted in popularity outside that country - baseball is probably the best example I can think of.
Another important point is that the Korean dominance is a self sustaining cycle - the way prize money is allocated mean only the very top finishers are picking up significant money. This allows for much greater investment by successful teams in things like facilities, coaching, equipment, travelling etc. When Korean teams win this money is essentially taken out of the Western scene and put into the Korean, much like imports take money out of a domestic economy and deposit in a foreign one.
What I would suggest is perhaps a temporary limit or ban on Korean players until the Western scene is at least competitive, otherwise it seems there will be an ever shrinking foreigner scene until we have something like BW, where foreigners compete twice a year and just get smashed.
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On June 07 2012 00:01 drag_ wrote:
I'd also add that many sports do actually give away places based on things other than merit - major tennis tournaments give wild cards to fan favourites who would otherwise not qualify, Ukraine and Poland are getting sports in the Euros, and so on. Furthermore, these sports don't really need to diversify because there is a natural pool of international talent. Sports where one country completely dominates tend to end up being restricted in popularity outside that country - baseball is probably the best example I can think of.
Another important point is that the Korean dominance is a self sustaining cycle - the way prize money is allocated mean only the very top finishers are picking up significant money. This allows for much greater investment by successful teams in things like facilities, coaching, equipment, travelling etc. When Korean teams win this money is essentially taken out of the Western scene and put into the Korean, much like imports take money out of a domestic economy and deposit in a foreign one.
What I would suggest is perhaps a temporary limit or ban on Korean players until the Western scene is at least competitive, otherwise it seems there will be an ever shrinking foreigner scene until we have something like BW, where foreigners compete twice a year and just get smashed.
I highly doubt that the western scene will ever be competitive especially if no Korean players are allowed to participate. If that happens, no korean player will join foreign teams and there won't be any opportunity for foreign players to play and practice with korean players.
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Many "foreign" players have no personality either. The only "foreigner" who has an enormous personality is Idra, due to his BM. The others "foreigners" with personality are just well mannered.
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On June 07 2012 01:02 Heh_ wrote:
Many "foreign" players have no personality either. The only "foreigner" who has an enormous personality is Idra, due to his BM. The others "foreigners" with personality are just well mannered.
I have to disagree with you. What has personality to do with being mannered or the reverse(BM)? I like Socke and Hasuobs because to me they have a huge personality, I know their language, I've seen them play in quite a lot of games, have heard what they have to say before, after their games. I listen to them in the "Szenecast" (german SOTG). I like them because I know them alot more than other palyers. I know IdrA and his BM of course, but that kind of personality has no appeal to me. In other words: GO SOCKE, crush those koreans!
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On June 07 2012 01:19 m4AC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 01:02 Heh_ wrote:
Many "foreign" players have no personality either. The only "foreigner" who has an enormous personality is Idra, due to his BM. The others "foreigners" with personality are just well mannered. I have to disagree with you. What has personality to do with being mannered or the reverse(BM)? I like Socke and Hasuobs because to me they have a huge personality, I know their language, I've seen them play in quite a lot of games, have heard what they have to say before, after their games. I listen to them in the "Szenecast" (german SOTG). I like them because I know them alot more than other palyers. I know IdrA and his BM of course, but that kind of personality has no appeal to me. In other words: GO SOCKE, crush those koreans!
If you follow someone closely, you'll obviously notice that they have some personality. Idra's personality is famous for his BM. The OP talked about showboating or moments where raw emotions showed. I haven't seen much of these in "foreigners", a bunch of their post-game interviews are also pretty bland.
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There are obviously multiple ways of self-promotion to create such emotional bonding I talked about. Showing raw emotions is one thing. But you can also let people know your background, your story so that they can build a picture in their heads of who you are and what you believe. Every little info, feeling or thought helps. Sadly the language barrier seems to be hard to overcome for most of them. It's not all about raw emotions, though. Although it's an easy, language-free way of starting.
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Wow so only 3 non-Koreans. I think they should really set a continent limit. X from Europe, X from America, X from Asia. I actually like watching Koreans crush foreigners. It's just not fun w/o them.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. You can see glimpses of the Koreans breaking out of their shell at foreign events and I like this.
TT1 and Naniwa commented on the problem with foreigners just following the Korean example being not that simple. This is the other side of this coin. I agree with their point of view to an extent, but I think there are way too many foreigners who aren't taking it seriously. This needs to change too. The story-line of the foreigners knocking off the Koreans at MLG that seemed to fizzle out was really interesting, while it lasted, but the foreigners didn't fill their end of the bargain on that.
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Don't forget that some of the koreans are probably semi nerdy as well, haha. Not everyone can be a crowd pleaser.
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One solution is to have regional qualifiers for pool play but that would screw up the other mlg events i suppose?
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Which foreigner players *actually* play SC2 8+ hours a day? Unfortunately few hours of SC2 a day (average) and rest of the day doing random stuff / fooling around / playing other games doesn't seem to be enough.
I agree with country/continent restrictions. They would work to some degree.
Also the regional tournament format works, but only works with big regions and big tournaments. US tourny, EU tourny, Asian tourny, Final tourny.
Blizzard is going a bit too far with this, as they have tournaments for individual countries in europe = bad.
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I made this post in another thread, but the issue of foreigners simply "practicing as much as koreans" is not that simple.
i think the living conditions that foreigner houses have are usually of a higher standard than Korean teamhouses, even though most of the important Korean teams have reasonable accommodation.
What Nani is talking about, I think, is that Koreans have several advantages simply by being in Korea and speaking Korean.
A) Access to high skilled, experienced coaches. All of the big SC2 Korean teams have coaches that are often ex BW coaches as well as being high masters SC2 players. These coaches know how to formulate new strategies, search for proper practice partners, identify weaknesses in opponents and create training regimes for the entire house as well as looking after everything else.
B) Extreme population density. All the major Korean SC2 teams live within around a ~4 hour radius of each other (I think). They can get to and from GOM easily and have access to each other and the talent pool within Seoul and Korea in a very short distance. Additionally the concentration of high skilled, professional players on Korean ladder makes it infinitely better training than any other comparable ladder as well as being an amazing resource for finding appropriate practices partners.
C) The BW legacy. Koreans in SC2 have all had some sort of exposure to the BW scene in Korea. Whether they are ex-BW pros, semi-pro players or just fans, they all have some sort of knowledge of the scene. BW had the highest level of professionalism in any esport ever, meaning that these SC2 pros know inherently how to 'be' a pro due to having native role models to follow. Futhermore, having the BW legacy makes pursuing a progaming career that much more acceptable (although not as widely accepted as we would like to think). Ergo it is ok for guys like Maru and Creator to skip out school to practice and participate. It makes it easier for the unknowns in the scene to rise up and train really hard, not having to concentrate on much else (even those who have to find success, ie Polt)
Now, I know that the MoW house in Poland has a dedicated coach and that players have attested to him doing nearly exactly what I described in the above points.
All this said, the fact is that in order to be the best, one must go to Korea. There is simply no other way to compete. You have to make a name for yourself in the west first and then get lucky to be on a team willing to support an extended stay in Korea, in a teamhouse where you will be the same as any of the other pros there as well as having the support of your family and ability to move thousands of kilometers away to play a video game for a long period.
+ Show Spoiler + still, most of the western scene streamers came out and put up huge hours on D3 as well when it released, yet not a peep from the Koreans T_T. There is obviously still a work ethic gap but not as bad as some people make it out to be
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Considering the history of brood war, it was pretty obvious that koreans were going to dominate sc2 in the long run. Hard to say, but it's pretty likely that in another few years foreigners won't even be able to compete with koreans at the highest level
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Grubby will make a run :D
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EPT
