I wrote about the first SPL match of tonight (FireBatHero match). A classic, boring stalemate TvT. Unfortunately the issues I highlight are more theoretical than what's appropriate to a live report thread. So, instead I'd like to examine these issues here in my blog, and see what people think. As I've said before, my current project is to create an RTS that will bring E-Sports to North America in a big way. I'd like to do my research thoroughly and then make a pitch to Blizzard, or Blizzard and other major gaming companies. I'm yet to figure out where my idea is most likely to be accepted and where the product created will be satisfactory.
Anyway, here are my thoughts concerning tonight's first SPL game, and what I think are the essential realizations from a game design standpoint. Also, having not watched HD SCBW stream in a while, it's impressive just how good that game looks. Compared to Diablo 3, and DotA and some other games I've been examining recently, it looks like SCBW's 15 year old graphics are still more than tolerable, and arguably even ahead of the game. Perhaps this is an unfortunate truth, yet it makes me smile to look back and see that the game I loved so much is not yet obsolesced by the artistic and graphic improvements that have occurred in the past decade and a half.
Match Thoughts I'd like to see this first TvT replayed with SC2 interface. Neither play was playing to their potential, definitely. But I think the game was so boring because TvT is a very mechanics-oriented game, and the map was huge. Not only that but the distance between player bases was huge, and even the distance between player expansions was huge.
I think TvT, even on such a big map, with great distance between expansions would be a very exciting spectacle if SCBW had crucial upgrades from SC2. That is, if SCBW had customizable hotkeys, automining, infinite unit selection, infinite structure selection, etc. aggressive play would be a lot more feasible. However, it's much easier to set up a tank line or a minefield than it is to attack one. So, in the absence of interface improvements it's natural that the game would devolve into a very long drawn out stalemate (neither player had the speed required to make aggressive movements effective, and so both players were forced to play passively).
Some would argue that Siege Mode and Spider Mines are the culprit (thus "TvT" is very passive). However, I think this boring, drawn-out stalemate wasn't the consequence of the nature of Terran. Rather, it was a combination of a multitude of factors, and my focus would not be on the Terran units, but rather on the absurd distance between expansions, the players (who both seemed quite downtrodden--and not given to playing a fast-paced aggressive game), and especially the unnecessary mechanical difficulties still present in SCBW.
The two major upgrades, in my mind, are automining and infinite building selection. Unless you've experienced SCBW at a high level, it's difficult to comprehend just how much of a balancing act is required to efficiently allocate actions between queuing new workers, sending workers to mine, and building new units, queuing each unit individually while panning the camera to the base and selecting individual factories. Just the necessity of panning the camera to create a production cycle or panning the camera to select individual workers and send them to mine makes an enormous difference. Let's say a player in SCBW spends 30% of their time and 50+% of their focus on panning the camera and constructing units, the same player in SC2 probably spends 10% of their time constructing units and 15% of their focus.
The mechanical advantages afforded by the interface alone are sufficient to change the game completely. Not to mention other absolute game-changing features in SC2 like smart casting. SCBW pros playing a modded SCBW that is modded with these interface upgrades would be playing an entirely different game, and playstyles would look nothing like they do today. Interface upgrades play a huge role in the strategic evolution of the game, and SC2's interface is part of the reason why the game seems to have been 'figured out' so much faster than SCBW
In addition to UI improvements, I think Sniper Ridge (or whatever was the map) is a pretty crazily large map. I've seen some huge macro maps, but this one was a true gargantuan. Of course map size, and especially the massive distance between natural expansions played a heavy role in creating the snore fest that was game 1. However, I think even without altering the map (that is, even if the game were played on a similarly-scaled huge, highly defensible map), the game would still be paced very differently with just the inclusion of interface changes. For the sake of argument, I think changing the map to a more moderate-sized map with 'standard' distance between natural expansions would a big difference without even changing the interface.
However, my ideal test of SCBW matchups would be with essential interface upgrades (infinite unit and structure select, automining, smart-casting, customizable hotkeys, etc.). Plus some standard maps, and even non-standard maps, although probably not huge, huge, defensively-oriented macro maps (especially not for TvT). That 3-player space platform map was nice, Tau, Longinus, Peaks of Baek Du, and some other classics are ideal, and then the inclusion of essential interface upgrades would make all the difference in the world. And I think that this is exactly how SC2 should have been designed to begin with. SCBW pros playing with enhanced interface on time-tested classic maps. Observing how the SCBW pros changed their game to accommodate the interface improvements could provide a lot of insight into designing SC2 or any competitive RTS. It's my hope that this is something that will be pursued before all the SCBW pros convert to SC2 and the opportunity to make discoveries is gone. SCBW is still the benchmark, or whatever, the epitome of RTS games, and so I think that before it is abandoned every effort should be made to capitalize on the great wealth of knowledge generated from SCBW
WTF game 2 is on another absurd-sized map. What's going on?
Well, this is another opportunity to make my point. Imagine being Zerg in this spot with 6 hatcheries or more spread all over the map. How much more difficult is it to 4sz5sz6sh7sh8sh9sz0sh every 15 seconds or something while having only 3 keys or 4 keys available to manage all your units. Consider that he has then either 3 sets of 12 or 4 sets of 12, that is either 36 or 48 units that are on hotkeys. And yet he has an army of something like 200 units (because he's so Zergling heavy). So he can have 1/4 of his army on hotkeys. So how is he supposed to maneuver with his units? All he can do is leave them in one big blob until the crucial moment and then lasso them 12 units at a time and launch them in a headlong rush toward the opponent.
So that's pretty boring but given the amount of attention required to be typing 4sz5sz6sz7sz8sh9sz0sh every 15 seconds while managing new drones produced and sending them to minerals, and managing map control, overlord spread, zergling scouts, lurker position, there's not much other than building a giant blob that's viable to Zerg. especially when he can only hotkey 1/4th of his 200 units army, and then in order to move the other 3/4s he's lassoing 12 units at a time. so that's like 1a2a3a4a moves 1/4 of the army and then to move the rest of the army he's gotta lasso 15 more times and with each lasso he's gotta press A + left click a location. in other words even with an absurd Korean pro APM of something like 300, it's still gonna take him probably 10 seconds to move the whole army just once. With infinite unit select he could move the whole army pretty much instantly just pressing 1 + left-click. So that's either a 10 second investment or a .1 second investment. That difference alone (without even referencing Hatchery selection, drones automining, etc.) is more than sufficient to create all new play styles in each Zerg matchup.
Seriously are these even real proleague maps. No one plays on maps this big. They should just host the BGH league and see what happens with that. I've never seen a proleague map that takes a speed shuttle a full 40 seconds to cross it. But apparently that's the direction these guys are taking things. I can only assume that this is the corruption of KeSPA that everyone is always complaining about. These map honestly look like what I would create to play against computer AI opponents in a 80-minute epics when I was 13 years old. Of course I played the computers 3 on 1 with infinite energy cheats so they could mass halucination and make things really interesting. But regardless, these are some silly maps.
Funny thing is that the dimensions of Sniper Ridge and the other Proleague maps this season are still only 128x128, which is in line with almost every other pro Korean BW map in existence.
Just because you don't like long, drawn-out BW TvT games on big maps doesn't mean nobody else does.
I love games like the one we saw today, it's Starcraft skill in its purest form. Drops, strategic attacks to gain position, expo denial, and in the end the guy who played the better game wins. And it's even better when you have two S class players going at it rather than FBH and Honsin.
On June 04 2012 17:09 FuRong wrote: Just because you don't like long, drawn-out BW TvT games on big maps doesn't mean nobody else does.
I love games like the one we saw today, it's Starcraft skill in its purest form. Drops, strategic attacks to gain position, expo denial, and in the end the guy who played the better game wins. And it's even better when you have two S class players going at it rather than FBH and Honsin.
Example: Flash vs Fantasy in the Bigfile MSL semi-finals a few years ago. Possibly the greatest best-of-five ever played in the history of Starcraft.
On June 04 2012 17:09 FuRong wrote: Just because you don't like long, drawn-out BW TvT games on big maps doesn't mean nobody else does.
I love games like the one we saw today, it's Starcraft skill in its purest form. Drops, strategic attacks to gain position, expo denial, and in the end the guy who played the better game wins. And it's even better when you have two S class players going at it rather than FBH and Honsin.
Example: Flash vs Fantasy in the Bigfile MSL semi-finals a few years ago. Possibly the greatest best-of-five ever played in the history of Starcraft.
I still get chills when I think of that best-of-five. Anyone who wants to know about high-level TvT should see that series.
aren't you the paranoid kid who made a bunch of absurd claims about South Korea? i recall reading you babbling about how the decisions makers and mafia in South Korea were a bunch of narcissists who had no regard for anyone, especially people who aren't South Koreans. you kept saying stupid shit about how these people seem helpless to do anything except sabotage others.
you said some really stupid stuff about South Korean Starcraft players too. you said that the Terrans just build Hellions and Reapers or Hellions and Banshees. you said they intentionally don't cooperate in team games, and that they make an effort to confuse, demoralize, or otherwise sew strife among people who are not part of their in-group. you paint them as a bunch of greedy assholes who are willing to do anything to stay in power. you say they're not only unrepentant, but they will say anything, literally anything, to avoid facing repercussions for the crimes they commit. you say they're willing to apologize, swear oaths, even say 'i love you', although probably not so directly, and that these words mean nothing to them. i don't believe that such people exist. there are not people in this world who are simply evil, hedonistic people who enjoy causing others suffering. there are not people whose sadistic tendencies are checked only by their greed, and the fact that they need others (whom they treat like slaves) to achieve their greedy, hedonistic goals.
if there were people like that i don't see how they could survive. the culture you describe is simply not sustainable. at best this could only describe a portion of a population, because the parasitic life style intoned by your ravings is one that cannot be sustained except at the expense of a majority of people 'feeding' their resources to a small elite minority. if there were such a group as the one you describe, we would know that they exist. such a tyrannical group exercising the powers of fear and confusion against a populace could not long go undetected unless they were possessed of some superior technology. in a word, you're wrong. there's no way something like this has gone on utterly undetected. next you'll claim that there are encoded messages in Dragon Ball Z that describe the hierarchy of the Asian criminal underworld and that you can learn all about this stuff from anime programs available to our children.
frankly, while i do appreciate the thoroughness of your Starcraft analysis, I am sickened by your racism toward South Koreans.
ProGamerX, there is evidence. There's a lot of evidence, although of course, like you surely expect, I will claim that the evidence is hushed.
But of course it's hushed. If you're making claims about the existence of a criminal underworld or some sort of syndicated criminal organizations that exercise power over major businesses and even political decisions in a nation, you can't expect it to be headline news. If there's criminal presence or even criminal influence in the government, then international relations would probably severely hamper citizens of other nations from receiving accurate information concerning criminal activities. Even so, I think there's some documentation of criminal behavior in South Korea.
There are also some interesting articles here on Team Liquid concerning South Korean night life, prostitution, clubs, and gambling. Hopefully someone more acquainted with the Team Liquid search feature will post those here. Not to derail the initial Starcraft question, however, I'm sincerely interested in the South Korean 'under world', and other elements of the South Korean culture, so if there are any related articles, contradictory or otherwise, I'd appreciate if them showing up here.
i'll say this: i wouldn't want to be a woman in South Korea. the treatment of women in South Korea is not necessarily connected to your fantasies of gang warfare or criminal violence. your use of the term "Korean Hell Witch" is not a respectful way to refer to the plight of women in South Korea. if you want to sympathize with the oppressed people in South Korea, then calling one of the most brutally repressed people groups in the world "Korean Hell Witch" is not the way to do it.
On June 04 2012 17:57 ProGamerX wrote: i'll say this: i wouldn't want to be a woman in South Korea. the treatment of women in South Korea is not necessarily connected to your fantasies of gang warfare or criminal violence. your use of the term "Korean Hell Witch" is not a respectful way to refer to the plight of women in South Korea. if you want to sympathize with the oppressed people in South Korea, then calling one of the most brutally repressed people groups in the world "Korean Hell Witch" is not the way to do it.
I'm obviously joking. "Korean Hell Witch" is hyperbole of course. KPOP is probably how the women of South Korea are best known to populations of other countries.
South Korea has effectively created a gender-selected class of prostitutes, and KPOP is like a way to advertise them to the world as cute, sexy, subservient slaves.
you insist that decision-makers in South Korea are prone or even helpless to prevent themselves from sabotaging other people. there is no evidence of this. if your coffee maker breaks after three days of use, or your car's break linings expire after 100 miles, or you install a South Korean product and find yourself inconvenienced by a bunch of haphazard errors. It's not a cultural conspiracy to inconvenience or sabotage others. it's just incompetence like you would see anywhere else in the world. people are lazy, inattentive, careless.
don't chalk up every little detail as evidence of malicious intent. it's certainly not intentional sabotage. at worst some small fraction of the multitude of errors, failures, malfunctions, etc. is a private joke executed by some disgruntled employee. these jokes don't happen often, nor do they occur in safety-related scenarios. i'd feel just as safe driving a car made by a South Korean brand and manufactured by Korean employees here in the United States as I would driving a car imported from Japan. and they're not different. than cars made in American either. it's appauling that you insist there are extremely dangerous, intentional defects built into Korean products, especially automotive technology or industrial equipment. let me reiterate: at worst there are mild, harmless jokes that find their way into low-cost household products. there is no malicious intent. there is no difference between these products and any other products.
we do not live in Fight Club. there are not pointedly negligent or even intentionally malicious people who delight in clever manufactured errors that cause people to die or products to malfunction in dangerous ways. there is not a coordinated effort or some kind of 'company' policy encouraging employees to cause dangerous errors. people are not inherently bad, at worst, there are a few dozen people in the world who have been conditioned with extreme violence or who come from harsh childhoods and who are raped or abused or exposed to great quantities of severely mind-altering chemicals. probably there are not 50 such people globally, and i doubt any of them will find a job in the manufacturing sector, much less in a position of power or influence. the assertion that such people exercise any real power or influence in the world neglects to the consider the multitude of safe-guards that of course prevent any psychotic, malintentioned individuals from rising to power.
Um, I don't know if this is a troll post or not but (someone PM me if he is lol):
Changing the UI will not change the fact that well positioned Siege Tanks will still demolish anything else. Which is the reason for dropship play, which is pretty dynamic imo.
You should probably check out some of Leta's TvTs. Less passive TvT's involving wraiths and lots of harassment.
Also large maps are good for macro games, and longer games are more entertaining. If i was baller I'd show u a graph but im not so u can just pretend.
Should also check out some of Day9's BW dailies on TvT if you don't really "get" TvT.
EDIT: Also who the hell pans the camera? Like I only scroll a little bit, but its not noticable. It's not that hard to press f2/66/77/whatever.
On June 04 2012 17:34 Failsafe wrote: ProGamerX, there is evidence. There's a lot of evidence, although of course, like you surely expect, I will claim that the evidence is hushed.
But of course it's hushed. If you're making claims about the existence of a criminal underworld or some sort of syndicated criminal organizations that exercise power over major businesses and even political decisions in a nation, you can't expect it to be headline news. If there's criminal presence or even criminal influence in the government, then international relations would probably severely hamper citizens of other nations from receiving accurate information concerning criminal activities. Even so, I think there's some documentation of criminal behavior in South Korea.
I'd like to make some joke about this, but then again a Korean crime syndicate actually was fixing BW matches for years so. And Japan's government is a total corrupt mess but people in the US seem to think their some kind of super efficient nation of technocrats, so he actually may have some credence to that second point, suprising.
The ONLY reason why BW TvT is stale is because of Siege Mode. Siege Mode not only increases the damage and adds splash damage, it also increases the firing range by quite a bit. This means that you have to outnumber a siege line to take it down, but since this generally opens up holes in your own defense, it's generally not worth it. TvT is all about positioning and doing engagements that favour you.
You should take a look at TvZ. It's action packed to the max, and yet it has the same limitations. And about Zerg unit movement? The progamers rally point their hatcheries to the battlefield so that they don't have to control all units manually. Dealing with the huge unit groups is part of the challenge of zerg.
EPT
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