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The way I look at it any strategy that gets you a win is a good strategy... at least in a tournament format.
When MVP bunker rushed NaNiWa with two proxy rax I nearly lost my shit... I got nerd chills. It was so cool to watch. I don't lie when I say that was one of the best micro battles I've watched.
To me cheese is on par with the blitz from American Football... I mean hell, the 1985 bears had the best defense of all time because of innovations they made to the blitz... not to nerd out too much but the defensive coordinator created a whole new defensive set called the '4-6' as opposed to the traditional 4-3 or 3-4 defense. Blitz's were coming in at odd angles and it allowed the bears to get a 15-1 record and have one of the best teams ever to play football.
Then there was the Gritz Blitz of the 1977 Falcons... the only team to allow fewer points per game than the 85 bears. There style was literally an all out blitz, safety's too. Teams didn't know how to react to it.
But, even though I love cheese, on the ladder it is a whole different story. If I get cannon rushed I don't even respond to it... I just say gg and I quit before they can kill a unit.
So... why do people get so riled up over cheese?
 
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Cheese tastes good by itself, but it's even better with the tears of a thousand fanboys on top.
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On May 07 2012 01:32 Mothra wrote:
Cheese tastes good by itself, but it's even better with the tears of a thousand fanboys on top.
And it gets better with age
:D
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Ugh, I was all prepared to talk about Gouda cheese!
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I came into this thinking it was about the other type of cheese 
On topic though, would you rather have a long game or a short game??
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Naniwa just played really greedy with his scouting (and 15gate wtf) and MVP exploited it, probably cause its TvP, and he has wrist problems so maybe he does not want to go into the lategame.
Cheese is needed in the game, otherwise everyone would get too greedy.
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On May 07 2012 01:52 NKB wrote:I came into this thinking it was about the other type of cheese On topic though, would you rather have a long game or a short game??
Depends on context.
If I'm in a tournament I want a short game, if I'm on the ladder I want a macro game. Since 100% of my play is on battle.net, I technically hate cheese.
And this can be about real cheese too.
Fuck gouda, havardi is where it's at.
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A win is a win. As a progamer you should always strive to win, regardless of the strategies you will have to use to achieve those wins.
As a spectator though, if I see a progamer get far in tournaments through cheese and not macro play, I won't get impressed by the player and I won't think as highly of his skill.
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I never cheese, and havent since the beta (im terran) however I dont mind being cheesed either. I dont think you should leave the game the second a cannon morphs in either. You should play it out as that builds experience on what you can and cannot do the next time it happens. I figure the more experience you have trying to defend the cheese and stay alive, the better off you will be the next time it happens.
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On May 07 2012 02:00 Snaiil wrote:
A win is a win. As a progamer you should always strive to win, regardless of the strategies you will have to use to achieve those wins.
As a spectator though, if I see a progamer get far in tournaments through cheese and not macro play, I won't get impressed by the player and I won't think as highly of his skill.
That's where I differ... if I ever saw a player go deep in a relevant competition with cheese I'd be extremely amazed. This means he put lots of time into his build. His opponents would be going up to him expecting a cannon rush and he'd still win? That would be amazing.
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On May 07 2012 02:09 Mattson wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:00 Snaiil wrote:
A win is a win. As a progamer you should always strive to win, regardless of the strategies you will have to use to achieve those wins.
As a spectator though, if I see a progamer get far in tournaments through cheese and not macro play, I won't get impressed by the player and I won't think as highly of his skill. That's where I differ... if I ever saw a player go deep in a relevant competition with cheese I'd be extremely amazed. This means he put lots of time into his build. His opponents would be going up to him expecting a cannon rush and he'd still win? That would be amazing.
On the contrary, if a player goes deep in a tournament with solid macro play, that also means that he put lots of time into his macro build. Those macro builds also require more skill to pull off correctly. So why do you get impressed by the simple cheese, and not the advanced macro play or the ability to fend of cheese with macro play?
I guess it makes sense if you look at it from a metagame or mindgame perspective. However, I'm more impressed by players skill in game.
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![[image loading]](http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/images/39/2012/01/3a59198157e7cc1e2fa77b4fa14285f3.jpg)
"And that's all I have to say about that."
-Forest Gump
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On May 07 2012 02:19 Snaiil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:09 Mattson wrote:On May 07 2012 02:00 Snaiil wrote:
A win is a win. As a progamer you should always strive to win, regardless of the strategies you will have to use to achieve those wins.
As a spectator though, if I see a progamer get far in tournaments through cheese and not macro play, I won't get impressed by the player and I won't think as highly of his skill. That's where I differ... if I ever saw a player go deep in a relevant competition with cheese I'd be extremely amazed. This means he put lots of time into his build. His opponents would be going up to him expecting a cannon rush and he'd still win? That would be amazing. On the contrary, if a player goes deep in a tournament with solid macro play, that also means that he put lots of time into his macro build. Those macro builds also require more skill to pull off correctly. So why do you get impressed by the simple cheese, and not the advanced macro play or the ability to fend of cheese with macro play? I guess it makes sense if you look at it from a metagame or mindgame perspective. However, I'm more impressed by players skill in game.
Because I believe a players skill is qualitative and not quantitative. If a player goes deep into the GSL he is skilled in my mind, regardless of his play style. I believe it silly to say 'oh this player is more skilled than that player.' I'd prefer it if people would mention the dedication it takes to get where they are.
Macro style games are my favorite games there are. My two favorite players are Nestea and DRG.
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I don't like cheese, but I hate greed even more. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing an arrogantly greedy player being punished for it.
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Progamers don't care how they win, as long as they win. This isn't ladder points their playing for; it's money :D
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Cheese:
Everyone loves to do it.
Everyone hates to be victimized by it.
It's a bit of a sadist/masochist relation in a way
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i like to watch cheese, normally it makes for exciting games if the victim is competent enough to put up a fight against it.
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I enjoy watching good and unique cheese strategies and I think cheese in general is a viable strategy.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
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I like watching cheese, especially if it's unpredictable and fun, or if it's part of a tense series. For example, Jaedong 6pooling (excuse me, 4pool) Flash two games in a row is exciting. BitByBit doing the same thing for a whole tournament, not so much.
I also like playing against cheese on the ladder, probably for the same reason I usually play defense when playing soccer or hockey. I don't cheese very much myself; while I enjoy winning with cheese, losing with cheese feels really crappy.
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EPT
