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The way I look at it any strategy that gets you a win is a good strategy... at least in a tournament format.
When MVP bunker rushed NaNiWa with two proxy rax I nearly lost my shit... I got nerd chills. It was so cool to watch. I don't lie when I say that was one of the best micro battles I've watched.
To me cheese is on par with the blitz from American Football... I mean hell, the 1985 bears had the best defense of all time because of innovations they made to the blitz... not to nerd out too much but the defensive coordinator created a whole new defensive set called the '4-6' as opposed to the traditional 4-3 or 3-4 defense. Blitz's were coming in at odd angles and it allowed the bears to get a 15-1 record and have one of the best teams ever to play football.
Then there was the Gritz Blitz of the 1977 Falcons... the only team to allow fewer points per game than the 85 bears. There style was literally an all out blitz, safety's too. Teams didn't know how to react to it.
But, even though I love cheese, on the ladder it is a whole different story. If I get cannon rushed I don't even respond to it... I just say gg and I quit before they can kill a unit.
So... why do people get so riled up over cheese?
 
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Cheese tastes good by itself, but it's even better with the tears of a thousand fanboys on top.
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On May 07 2012 01:32 Mothra wrote:
Cheese tastes good by itself, but it's even better with the tears of a thousand fanboys on top.
And it gets better with age
:D
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Ugh, I was all prepared to talk about Gouda cheese!
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I came into this thinking it was about the other type of cheese 
On topic though, would you rather have a long game or a short game??
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Naniwa just played really greedy with his scouting (and 15gate wtf) and MVP exploited it, probably cause its TvP, and he has wrist problems so maybe he does not want to go into the lategame.
Cheese is needed in the game, otherwise everyone would get too greedy.
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On May 07 2012 01:52 NKB wrote:I came into this thinking it was about the other type of cheese On topic though, would you rather have a long game or a short game??
Depends on context.
If I'm in a tournament I want a short game, if I'm on the ladder I want a macro game. Since 100% of my play is on battle.net, I technically hate cheese.
And this can be about real cheese too.
Fuck gouda, havardi is where it's at.
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A win is a win. As a progamer you should always strive to win, regardless of the strategies you will have to use to achieve those wins.
As a spectator though, if I see a progamer get far in tournaments through cheese and not macro play, I won't get impressed by the player and I won't think as highly of his skill.
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I never cheese, and havent since the beta (im terran) however I dont mind being cheesed either. I dont think you should leave the game the second a cannon morphs in either. You should play it out as that builds experience on what you can and cannot do the next time it happens. I figure the more experience you have trying to defend the cheese and stay alive, the better off you will be the next time it happens.
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On May 07 2012 02:00 Snaiil wrote:
A win is a win. As a progamer you should always strive to win, regardless of the strategies you will have to use to achieve those wins.
As a spectator though, if I see a progamer get far in tournaments through cheese and not macro play, I won't get impressed by the player and I won't think as highly of his skill.
That's where I differ... if I ever saw a player go deep in a relevant competition with cheese I'd be extremely amazed. This means he put lots of time into his build. His opponents would be going up to him expecting a cannon rush and he'd still win? That would be amazing.
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On May 07 2012 02:09 Mattson wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:00 Snaiil wrote:
A win is a win. As a progamer you should always strive to win, regardless of the strategies you will have to use to achieve those wins.
As a spectator though, if I see a progamer get far in tournaments through cheese and not macro play, I won't get impressed by the player and I won't think as highly of his skill. That's where I differ... if I ever saw a player go deep in a relevant competition with cheese I'd be extremely amazed. This means he put lots of time into his build. His opponents would be going up to him expecting a cannon rush and he'd still win? That would be amazing.
On the contrary, if a player goes deep in a tournament with solid macro play, that also means that he put lots of time into his macro build. Those macro builds also require more skill to pull off correctly. So why do you get impressed by the simple cheese, and not the advanced macro play or the ability to fend of cheese with macro play?
I guess it makes sense if you look at it from a metagame or mindgame perspective. However, I'm more impressed by players skill in game.
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![[image loading]](http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/images/39/2012/01/3a59198157e7cc1e2fa77b4fa14285f3.jpg)
"And that's all I have to say about that."
-Forest Gump
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On May 07 2012 02:19 Snaiil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:09 Mattson wrote:On May 07 2012 02:00 Snaiil wrote:
A win is a win. As a progamer you should always strive to win, regardless of the strategies you will have to use to achieve those wins.
As a spectator though, if I see a progamer get far in tournaments through cheese and not macro play, I won't get impressed by the player and I won't think as highly of his skill. That's where I differ... if I ever saw a player go deep in a relevant competition with cheese I'd be extremely amazed. This means he put lots of time into his build. His opponents would be going up to him expecting a cannon rush and he'd still win? That would be amazing. On the contrary, if a player goes deep in a tournament with solid macro play, that also means that he put lots of time into his macro build. Those macro builds also require more skill to pull off correctly. So why do you get impressed by the simple cheese, and not the advanced macro play or the ability to fend of cheese with macro play? I guess it makes sense if you look at it from a metagame or mindgame perspective. However, I'm more impressed by players skill in game.
Because I believe a players skill is qualitative and not quantitative. If a player goes deep into the GSL he is skilled in my mind, regardless of his play style. I believe it silly to say 'oh this player is more skilled than that player.' I'd prefer it if people would mention the dedication it takes to get where they are.
Macro style games are my favorite games there are. My two favorite players are Nestea and DRG.
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I don't like cheese, but I hate greed even more. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing an arrogantly greedy player being punished for it.
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Progamers don't care how they win, as long as they win. This isn't ladder points their playing for; it's money :D
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Cheese:
Everyone loves to do it.
Everyone hates to be victimized by it.
It's a bit of a sadist/masochist relation in a way
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i like to watch cheese, normally it makes for exciting games if the victim is competent enough to put up a fight against it.
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I enjoy watching good and unique cheese strategies and I think cheese in general is a viable strategy.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
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I like watching cheese, especially if it's unpredictable and fun, or if it's part of a tense series. For example, Jaedong 6pooling (excuse me, 4pool) Flash two games in a row is exciting. BitByBit doing the same thing for a whole tournament, not so much.
I also like playing against cheese on the ladder, probably for the same reason I usually play defense when playing soccer or hockey. I don't cheese very much myself; while I enjoy winning with cheese, losing with cheese feels really crappy.
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depends who you are. if youre just a player trying to abuse cheese to inflate your rank on ladder, you need to stop and learn how to really play. if youre someone playing a series or just sprinkling in some cheese here and there, i think its totally fine. theres a big difference between intelligent cheese (playing mind games in a series, deceiving the opponent based on the last few games) versus blind cheese (peruvians come to mind...)
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I really like brie cheese. Just slather it all over crackers and instant satisfaction.
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I prefer cheese to macro games anyday, ladder or tournament.
That said, I'm not good enough of a player to cheese on ladder, so I just stick with macro games. Because it's easy to mass units and a-move to victory. I'm a Plat Zerg. And I still don't (have to) know how to play the game beyond injecting larva. + Show Spoiler +Except zvz where it's ling-all-in every game and if I fail, I fall back to macroing out of it. For some reason, that actually works.
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I don't enjoy cheese games as they don't really, well, go very far. The part of the game I enjoy the most is the mid/late game where management and multitask come into play - both to play and watch.
Games where both players do some sort of low-econ shenanigan are exciting as hell, though.
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On May 07 2012 06:22 Praetorial wrote:
I really like brie cheese. Just slather it all over crackers and instant satisfaction.
Mmmm, brie. Agreed, crackers and bread.
Also, I agree on Havardi > Gouda.
Hmm....I guess I should talk 'bout the other type of cheese since I'm at it
I personally don't get why people get so riled up either. For a progamer, it's just another strategy, they'd rather have a short game and get an easy win. Sure, having a bo5 finals with a cheesey play after another makes for a bored audience,but the occasional cheese spices things up and makes for tense moments as well.
As a player? I'm usually happy when I get cheesed, since I think "awesome, I've this 1 in my pocket". If you lose, just get someone do the same strat over and over till you know how to fend it off 100% of the time. If I lose? "Ok, gotta practice this one more"
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I love COUGAR GOLD cheese. Especially when you put it inside warm breadrolls omg, so good.
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Cheesing will always be part of the game. When I lose to it I get mad, not mad at my opponent because they cheesed me, but mad at myself for making the blunder that led to my loss. Since so little happens between the time you start and lose the game, its easy to see the actions that cause you to lose the game. For example, if you misclick and don't repair your bunker in time and you lose because of that. That is what angers me most, how if I had played just a little better/smarter I would have been able to hold it off.
From a spectators stand point, I find cheese actually refreshing and exciting to watch. I like to see how the pros defend it, and I like to watch the micro because each little click matters so much at that point in the game.
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On May 07 2012 06:53 PaqMan wrote:
I love COUGAR GOLD cheese. Especially when you put it inside warm breadrolls omg, so good.
Mmm ya, good stuff. Funny thing is I've been out in Pullman two years now and I haven't had it once while at school. I'm not even sure where they make it out here, only that its probably like five minutes away from my classes. I've only actually had it back home haha
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It only annoys me on ladder because theres no reason for it really.
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On May 07 2012 09:55 DreamChaser wrote:
It only annoys me on ladder because theres no reason for it really.
Of course there's a reason for it. It punishes too greedy players and even more importantly, it's a fun way to play. If you enjoy cheesing more than you enjoy playing macro games, then that's probably how you should ladder. In the end, you play to have fun.
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On May 07 2012 09:55 DreamChaser wrote:
It only annoys me on ladder because theres no reason for it really.
If no one cheesed then there would seriously be no reason not to open cc/hatch/nexus first every single goddamned game.
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On May 07 2012 10:15 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 09:55 DreamChaser wrote:
It only annoys me on ladder because theres no reason for it really. If no one cheesed then there would seriously be no reason not to open cc/hatch/nexus first every single goddamned game.
You two are absolutely right, when i wrote that out all i thought was getting cheesed 3 games in a row. But your right then everyone would go nex first, cheese make's sure strategies are actually solid.
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*Cough* (Clicky)
I think the term shouldn't be used anymore. It is old, over used, and honestly, no one thinks hearing you talking about cheese while you rage makes the rage have any impact. If anything, it makes people laugh at you. If you did a bad strategy, oh well. If you lost due to BO, choose a safer one next time, you chose a risky one and you payed for it, move on. If you lost due to not scouting, still your fault. Seriously, is there any need for this term? I think not.
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Flash cheese tastes the best. Especially when bisu tears start dropping.
I love seeing cheese vs cheese, the reaction on both players faces is always gold.
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Cheese is part of the game when its within how the game was designed. When toss is 3 pylon blocking ramps and stuff that blizzard didnt think about, I hate watching that.
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On Starcraft: If you know you're opponent is being risky or greedy from scouting or ahead of time and you cheese them...awesome. Blindly cheesing a map...I have the same view of blindly deciding what build you're going to do and being unwilling to change it...is kind of lame. But if it works, whatever. Especially if it's because you're in a bo7 and up two games and you can afford to do it to fuck with your opponent's head.
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On what I desperately hoped this blog would be about:
I love cheese. I don't care if it's full of cholesterol; I don't care if it kills you. I fucking adore cheese. All of the cheese. Except smelly awful cheese like Limburger. But seriously. Cheese on crackers, cheese on noodles, cheese on salad, cheese in scrambled eggs, cheese on my burger. Fucking cheese all the things.
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On May 07 2012 11:40 3FFA wrote:*Cough* (Clicky) I think the term shouldn't be used anymore. It is old, over used, and honestly, no one thinks hearing you talking about cheese while you rage makes the rage have any impact. If anything, it makes people laugh at you. If you did a bad strategy, oh well. If you lost due to BO, choose a safer one next time, you chose a risky one and you payed for it, move on. If you lost due to not scouting, still your fault. Seriously, is there any need for this term? I think not.
Linking your own blog as an argument is forum cheese.
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Cheesing in 1v1 can be prevented with careful strategy, but in 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 its impossible. There should be different rules in the game to stop cheesing in those other not so competitive gamemodes. They are played with friends or for fun. I'd love blizzard to change things in 2v2,3v3 and 4v4.
-Desperate player
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cheese with kimchi is fantastic, but without kimchi, it gets old fast
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Cheese is a save gate for players to win games against players above their skill level. It shows how bad players can be.
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Anyone watch the game between Hwangsin and Hawk in IPL team arena. Cloud 3 rax marine all ins and hwangsin has two stalkers and has the coolest defence.
I think if the cheese is well executed and you have a good understanding of how to defend it then the game is fun.
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depends on the type of "cheese". I don't really consider something like a blink all in in PvP cheese because the attacker is relying a lot on micro. But when someone is super "gimmicky" and just hides a probe in a corner of my base saying 'well derp I hope he doesn't find me under in this hidden nook on Korhal!" then proceeds to 19 probe 4 gate me.. yeah that's frustrating as he's not relying on anything micro intensive, but just wanted a gimmicky win for useless ladder points.
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On May 08 2012 22:46 Zimb0 wrote:
Cheesing in 1v1 can be prevented with careful strategy, but in 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 its impossible. There should be different rules in the game to stop cheesing in those other not so competitive gamemodes. They are played with friends or for fun. I'd love blizzard to change things in 2v2,3v3 and 4v4.
-Desperate player
LOL I can't even imagine what Team Monobattles would be like without cannon rushes.
On a related note... anyone see Mvp vs Parting?
Artosis said it best... Protoss are being greedy right now and Mvp is exploiting that.
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People who cheese only do it for fun, there's no skill involved. They aren't really going anywhere nor should they believe they will. Btw, catching someone off guard isn't skill, it's luck, which cheese relies on. The only reason why pros get away with it is because when they go into tournament play they're expecting a macro game, and the cheese factor relies on the luck of the early scout.
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I don't mind people who have a good cheese in their toolbag and break it out when the situation calls for it, such as a tournament with a best of X structure where you think you can throw them off gaurd. What I absolutely hate is people on the ladder that just cheese every single game.
When somebody cheeses me, and I can tell that they aren't good players and just cheese because it's the only way they can win, I don't gg, and intentionally drag the game out by sending out workers to build things all over the map so they have to waste a lot of time killing all my buildings.
Almost always when I watch replays of people who beat me with a cheese (and they don't always beat me), they are terrible players who can't macro or micro to save their life. After that initial build order that the practiced a thousand times, they suck, floating minerals, not making workers, etc... They are bad players who get cheap wins by cheesing every game. It's one of the few things I hate more than anything in this game, because I never learn anything from those losses. It's basically a build order loss when I get hit with cheese.
What's that? You 6 pooled/dt rush/proxy barracks and won! What a stud! Your mom must be really proud of how clever you are!
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On May 20 2012 09:37 BionicWaffle wrote:
People who cheese only do it for fun, there's no skill involved. They aren't really going anywhere nor should they believe they will. Btw, catching someone off guard isn't skill, it's luck, which cheese relies on. The only reason why pros get away with it is because when they go into tournament play they're expecting a macro game, and the cheese factor relies on the luck of the early scout.
Stop taking yourself so seriously. If no one ever did cheese there would be no reason not to go 3 hatch before pool or CC first every single game. There would be no reason to 10 scout, if you know you could nexus first every game. It just keeps you on your toes.
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Personally, I find Havarti to be a little to overpowering in a sandwich, even its milder forms. It's alright on crackers or by itself, however. Provalone is much better in a sandwich, and its flavour gels a lot better with essential sandwich meats like prosciutto. Mozzarella is okay, but it comes out a little too much in a sandwich, so it's best to leave it as a melting cheese on top of other things.
For your bulk cheeses, mascarpone is quite delicious, and in a tiramisu it's amazing. Ricotta is another favorite of mine, either in a lasagna or some kind of caserole.
And finally, the best chunk cheeses are a really old, aged cheddar, parmagiano - the really good stuff from Italy - and peccorino, which is like parmagiano but with spices; defninitely a must on any platter, and essential when you have guests (as is a good brie).
There's a Cheese Emporium at Eglinton and Mt. Pleasant near where I live. If anyone wants to go with me sometime, I'm down for it. There's nothing like some really good cheese, especiall if there's a soppresata to eat and some red wine too!
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On May 11 2012 11:56 -Exalt- wrote:
depends on the type of "cheese". I don't really consider something like a blink all in in PvP cheese because the attacker is relying a lot on micro. But when someone is super "gimmicky" and just hides a probe in a corner of my base saying 'well derp I hope he doesn't find me under in this hidden nook on Korhal!" then proceeds to 19 probe 4 gate me.. yeah that's frustrating as he's not relying on anything micro intensive, but just wanted a gimmicky win for useless ladder points.
If he hides a probe that easily, well that's just you being really bad I guess. Maybe you would've seen some good probe micro etc. if you actually found the scout? You can't blame anybody for hiding a probe or a pylon, and you can't fairly say that their game plan rests on the probe going unscouted.
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Its just another form of strategy that adds entertainment to the game, when watching ofc. Its a great skill to be able to macro and defend cheese as well.
Some of the best matches of MLG anaheim were cheese games, remember MKP Vs Sase, with those dt's? And remember when Sase beat polt with a cannon rush?!I thought those were Hilarious and Epic games (and im a terran)!
I love it though when you play cheese on ladder and your able to defend against it, because your ahead, and they have to take a major risk to get back the game! It all comes down to decision making and micro when you defend as well
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On July 18 2012 23:34 sfdrew wrote:
I don't mind people who have a good cheese in their toolbag and break it out when the situation calls for it, such as a tournament with a best of X structure where you think you can throw them off gaurd. What I absolutely hate is people on the ladder that just cheese every single game.
When somebody cheeses me, and I can tell that they aren't good players and just cheese because it's the only way they can win, I don't gg, and intentionally drag the game out by sending out workers to build things all over the map so they have to waste a lot of time killing all my buildings.
Almost always when I watch replays of people who beat me with a cheese (and they don't always beat me), they are terrible players who can't macro or micro to save their life. After that initial build order that the practiced a thousand times, they suck, floating minerals, not making workers, etc... They are bad players who get cheap wins by cheesing every game. It's one of the few things I hate more than anything in this game, because I never learn anything from those losses. It's basically a build order loss when I get hit with cheese.
What's that? You 6 pooled/dt rush/proxy barracks and won! What a stud! Your mom must be really proud of how clever you are!
Or maybe they play to have fun. Some people have legitimate fun from the wacky games that cheesy openings can produce. Some people are obsessed with winning and cheese all the time, that is true. But not everyone
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i don't cheese I just all-in. Makes me practice some basic mechanics.
EDIT: Actually I do Cheese in PvP. If I play the protoss again on the ladder, when I scout on 9 if i see him scout on 13 or so then the next game is a cannon rush.
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EPT
