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On May 03 2012 05:52 ymir233 wrote:
Urhm...
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings?
This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
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For me - someone who has never experienced the gaming culture you are talking about nor competitive gaming without esports directly related to it - this blog isnt convincing at all.
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On May 03 2012 06:56 Badinoff wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:52 ymir233 wrote:
Urhm...
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings? This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
No kidding. Nobody is making a legal argument here, you are free to walk up to anybody you want to insult them. And that person is free to say, hey, leave my property. And other bystanders are free to say, 'wow, what a dick'. There's no law against being an asshole.
This isn't about Freedom of Speach, or ToS, or any legal matters.
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you are killing ESPORTS.
I, on the other hand, am writing sponsors, only using/wearing sponsor products (it does kind of suck having to wear SteelSeries sweatpants or Razer shorts everyday), and making sure I upboat/downboat every post on rstarcraft.
ESPORTS.
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I am interpreting 'fuck esports' as 'fuck the monetizing of starcraft competition'. I have sympathy with this view, and I also do not really care about SC2 competition becoming more profitable.
Investing money in Starcraft competition, to be worth it (financially), requires the control of media, players, etc to be top-down. So, the more Starcraft competition media is turned into a valuable commodity (again, financially), the less control we, as players, have over it.
In an ideal world, I would like all media to be controlled by us, the consumers; but sadly, our society is not set up that way. Profits must have a clear flow, from the masses that consume everything, to the capitalist that controls everything.
Supporting esports used to mean getting others passionate about playing a game. Now, supporting esports can only mean getting people to give their money to the for-profit companies that are trying to control their spending.
What I, and possibly the OP, find annoying is that the consumers in this community sometimes come across as sheep, conflating what esports used to mean, with what it does now; that they are 'owned' by new industry that seeks to dominate them; and that they are overzealous about their allegiance to "ESPORTS", a concept which is meaningless outside of financial statistics.
Of course this issue is really complicated. I do not pretend to have expressed anything other than my philosophical observations about the transition from community of players to a community of consumers.
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I agree completely. Fuck eSports and MLG especially for the shit they are doing. MONETIZE MONETIZE MONETIZE!!!!
PROFIT = ESPORTS! YOU LOVE ESPORTS DONT YOU?
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On May 02 2012 18:41 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:34 sheaRZerg wrote:
I have similar feelings whenever I watch starcraft 2 competitions. I'm not completely sure why it seems so different than the korean bw scene I have followed for so long. Certainly it existed because of their sponsors and whatnot. Maybe it was a distance thing. Those silly korean comercials weren't targeting me. Maybe its blizzards constant involvement that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I suppose never having to pay to watch bw didn't hurt. The nature of sponsor's involvement in Korea and the west (or Korean SC2) is completely different though. Brood War sponsors are a lot like F1 manufacturers. They have their own teams, the teams and the players directly represent the company, and competing in sports leagues is a matter of prestige and raising the company image. Samsung doesn't invest in the pro team just to (directly) reach a new audience and sell Galaxy Tabs to them. They have a pro team competing under their name to demonstrate that Samsung is competitive and can be successful at everything they do. Brood War (and SF, or other Kespa games) players are athletes who are paid specifically to compete and excel at what they do, and Brood War sponsors genuinely foster competition and the actual sports/athletic aspect of playing Starcraft because it's in their interest to do so. Western esports sponsors are just that - sponsors. Look at the most common suspects - Razer and Steelseries. It's hard to find an "esports" event without their company brand being plastered somewhere - whether on multiple team jerseys, or next to the league logo, or at a booth, etc. They have their eggs in every basket, every other team, every game with even the slightest hint of a competitive scene. But make no mistake, they don't give a shit about gaming other than as an outlet and a perfect target audience to sell overpriced hardware that otherwise very few people would ever be interested in buying. In other words, they're parasites. They want to spread out as much as possible to make sure everyone is aware of them and their products, and that is the limit of their involvement. As a result, Starcraft 2 (or CS or any other game popular in the west) players are paid to make an appearance and get noticed. They're advertising space, they're just a shirt with a brand on it - that is ALL that they are being paid for, and how they go about getting noticed is up to them. This is no way a jab at the actual players - I myself am emotionally invested in a lot of SC2 players (specifically TL ones because I see them as representatives of the community, but many others as well). Nor is any of this to be blamed on the players. But the truth of the matter is that their commitment, passion and hard work is being used just so that their team owners, managers, all the Razers and other sponsors, and all the "content providers" can get exposure for their brands. Then, a few years from now they'll just move on to a different game to appeal to a new audience and ride the marketing wave of new game industry products as the players get left behind to rot and figure out what to do with the rest of their lives.
Very interesting perspective. I think the part that helped was that we didn't understand everything. It was always a distant thing, focus solely on the game and the players. The only thing that you really had to like was watching the game. And as such TeamLiquid was also a haven for you to get extra information about a scene you'd never have access too unless you were there in person.
Well what to say...
I agree with the blog. But also must say that I'm slightly averse to what this place has become. It feels like it's just too much. I don't think we have less love, just more hate. A place where people act like a caster is more important than a player. A loudmouth more important than actual results and skill. Events hyping with announcements over announcement. It almost feels like this is a game of who screams louder.
I'm not interested in E-Sports and I don't care quite much about SC2. I thought about it for quite some time and I think the real reason why I'm looking forward to the BW teams switching is just so we get the pro in professional right again. It's not about what you say and how you behave. You either bring it on the battlefield or you don't.
We always had loud mouths in the scene but we all knew where the real stuff is at. And that was in a OSL, MSL or Proleague. And we all new in the end nothing else matters.
And that's why it's such a shame I had to drown out all the noise here on teamliquid. To the point where I realised: There is not much left to be doing here anymore. And that's down right sad to me.
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Probably one of the better threads ive read on these forums, although i like ESPORTS the whole "x is killing ESPORTS" thing is stale, and the amount of people who argue and bitch over pointless stuff like in the thread your on about is laugh worthy 
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I FUCKING LOVE YOU GHEED.
I wish I was eloquent enough to say what you just said but other than that, I love you and your message. Fuck esports.
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Yes...it really is irritating. You can't even hear e-sports mentioned unless its all-capitalized for some reason.
Man I'm torn. I really dislike how you portray bronze leaguers. I mean yes some people are dumb, but was it really necessary to post all the conversations you had and portray them as having sub-canine intelligence? Also a lot of those people aren't necessarily"dumb", they just get freaked out psychologically when someone announces they're doing something they've never heard before and don't know if your advice is a lie (as well as other SC2 basics). But you seemed to equate that as being the same, and lumped everyone who didn't follow your advice as an idiot.
But now you're actually supporting something good without degrading anyone. yay. I too would like to see a game be fun to watch and support without it being turned into a religion. It probably has to do with the large number of "young" people. And you know how young people are, they're often very dramatic about things.
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"In Gheed we trust"
I get what you're saying. And although the competitiveness of online games is great, it can seem really retarded and useless sometimes. One point being is the ever encompassing definition of what "cheese" is. Where it used to be just restricted to early, blind strategies (like the 6 pool or cannon rush) has almost become anything that the losing player was unable to beat. I can't tell you how many people have complained to me "keep doing that strat while I get better and you don't" and you watch the replay and at the 15min mark and the guy has 1500k minerals banked, or has been on one base, or . . . etc.
I wonder if it's the current generation of gamers? A generation that's been tied to online play since their start. I remember my first gaming adventures were on SNES when there was no such thing as online play, and when that came out, (through PC gaming) it was fricken awesome! What other people did online didn't really matter to me -- I was just amazed that I could potentially be playing with someone from anywhere in the world! Perhaps it's the lack of amazement that's caused an over pretentiousness in the gaming community that leads to all the BS we've been seeing? I don't mean to overgeneralize, because I know there are many who still appreciate games as they are, but I feel like that crowd is deafened (if not completely silent to begin with) by an obnoxious minority.
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Good stuff.
less esports, more fun.
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Yeah, might as well. Skip this competitive bullshit and make room for more casual games. YAY! FUN!
?
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On May 02 2012 23:30 FryBender wrote:
This is what I got out of this Blog:
"WAH WAH I hate that SC2 has a mature community that actually gets outraged at the fact that someone used a racial slur. Why can't TL be more like 4Chan. why I'd be King among Men with my platinum skills that I use to beat down on people who aren't as good as me and make fun of them for it."
I have been playing video games longer then a lot of people here have been alive (which makes me no more or less special than anyone else) and I've never joined any gaming community precisely because the vocal majority of all of them has been populated by people like Destiny who's only purpose in playing a game is to call someone else a f*g as loud as they can. Imagine my surprise when I found TL. A community that's about more then just 13 year olds getting off by saying dirty things on the internet. I honestly couldn't care less about Esports, it's just not my thing but if it means that the community is forced to mature a little bit then I don't see how that can be a bad thing. You'll always have 4chan.
Incredibly off-base and ill-informed. You're one of the people this post is directed to. Grow up.
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This is the best thread i have read on TL for a while. And it feels good to say it, i fucking hate esports, i fucking hate the corporate friendly SC2 scene and i hope we were just like the fighting games scene. I know, they are racists misogynists bigots, but at least they seem to have fun. Can't say the same. I had way more fun in the BW proleague threads.
Thanks, rated 5/5
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On May 03 2012 06:56 Badinoff wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:52 ymir233 wrote:
Urhm...
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings? This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
this. agreed 100%
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On May 03 2012 07:20 vor wrote:
Good stuff.
less esports, more fun.
But SC2 really isnt a fun game, so we have to take what should be fun and create drama.
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I agree with the first two paragraphs all about the word itself and the overuse but then you lost me. I like it growing. I love that it's growing. I love that there are non-koreans that are able to make a living playing the game. I think the word needs to go but the thing that it represents right now should stay because it is really a good thing.
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EPT
