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On April 25 2012 00:06 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 23:59 deathly rat wrote:
yeah, the problem is he is getting demotivated whilst his MMR drops to a level where he is matched to people his skill level. I think a big problem for new players and low level players who are trying to play the game the right way is that they are completely unable to deal with any kind of cheese/early pressure, but they meet this kind of thing on ladder all the time because other shitty players who have been beaten by this sort of thing resort to doing it themselves in order to get some wins and therefore feel less bad about themselves playing the game.
The sort of thing that they fall to is cannon rushes (a lot), mass gateway all-ins, huge zergling all-ins, mass mutas etc etc. I'm trying to teach my friend how to scout these things and we play 2v2s for fun, but I have no idea how a new player who was alone would be able to work out this stuff without quitting from demotivation. Although I agree that dealing with cheese is demoralizing, I think that you're overstating the problem. In all my games getting out of bronze (and into gold so far), I've never seen a 6pool or proxy rax/gate. I've only seen a handful of allins, but most of them come ridiculously late (and weak) to do any significant damage. Unless someone is able to prove me wrong by providing a replay pack where he gets cheesed every single game. The reason why you keep noticing these games is that they occupy more attention than a game that you just won easily. It's like how you feel that you're stopped at every traffic light junction. Theoretically, it should be 50%. You zoom past the green lights, and stop (and think) at the red lights. Same thing goes for cheese. It makes you rage and think more about the games. If you just play standard and safe, your MMR will gradually increase. Even if you lose to these cheeses, they're only small bumps along the road.
Hey "My Friend" isn't some pseudonym for myself. I know how to fight this shit, but he doesn't. For example, his very first game the guy cannon rushes him the hardcore way, like nothing else in his base apart from a forge. My friend has no idea even what a cannon rush is, never mind how to beat it.
I'm not saying that every game is cheesey for him, but about 1/2 the games are either cheese or 1 base all-in.
However, that isn't even the whole issue. As I said, there is a lot to learn when you first play SC2 from a no-knowledge of the game stand point which i had forgotten. Like for example, my friend will stay on one base for way too long. So, when he finds out the guy has had another base the whole time it is too late.
My point is in order to have a sensible game of SC2 you need quite a large amount of game information, then you can build on this to improve empirically.
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On April 25 2012 00:06 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 23:59 deathly rat wrote:
yeah, the problem is he is getting demotivated whilst his MMR drops to a level where he is matched to people his skill level. I think a big problem for new players and low level players who are trying to play the game the right way is that they are completely unable to deal with any kind of cheese/early pressure, but they meet this kind of thing on ladder all the time because other shitty players who have been beaten by this sort of thing resort to doing it themselves in order to get some wins and therefore feel less bad about themselves playing the game.
The sort of thing that they fall to is cannon rushes (a lot), mass gateway all-ins, huge zergling all-ins, mass mutas etc etc. I'm trying to teach my friend how to scout these things and we play 2v2s for fun, but I have no idea how a new player who was alone would be able to work out this stuff without quitting from demotivation. Although I agree that dealing with cheese is demoralizing, I think that you're overstating the problem. In all my games getting out of bronze (and into gold so far), I've never seen a 6pool or proxy rax/gate. I've only seen a handful of allins, but most of them come ridiculously late (and weak) to do any significant damage. Unless someone is able to prove me wrong by providing a replay pack where he gets cheesed every single game. The reason why you keep noticing these games is that they occupy more attention than a game that you just won easily. It's like how you feel that you're stopped at every traffic light junction. Theoretically, it should be 50%. You zoom past the green lights, and stop (and think) at the red lights. Same thing goes for cheese. It makes you rage and think more about the games. If you just play standard and safe, your MMR will gradually increase. Even if you lose to these cheeses, they're only small bumps along the road.
While I agree in theory, I'd say your anecdotal evidence is probably no better than his, possibly worse, since your statistical sampling has the potential to be a good bit smaller since you're playing above that level and just need to bounce back up.
No, you don't see cheese every game, and well executed cheese is particularly rare, but you need to also consider this: For a legit Bronze vs a smurf, well executed cheese is subjective. If a plat gets cheesed by a top tier pro, he's going to get wrecked the majority of the time.
In other words, if the MMRs are actually supposed to be close to even, odds are the cheese will be executed sufficiently skillfully for that MMR.
This is why, if someone isn't particularly fond of practicing with no opponent (which is less fun when you suck at the game anyways), it can be harder to get out of Bronze for a Bronze player than a smurf. We don't HAVE that caliber of mechanics yet to be maxed at the 12 minute mark, so for the level of play, the stupid shit is sufficient.
Note, I'm using "cheese" here for an easy descriptor, not as some sort of complaint.
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On April 25 2012 00:13 deathly rat wrote:
Haha, sorry about the "My Friend" part. When I'm writing like this, I automatically write to the second person view instead of the third person.
On April 25 2012 00:13 JingleHell wrote:
The part about subjective cheese is probably very true. Everybody probably has their own definition of cheese. Mine is limited to extreme allins, like 6pools or proxy rax/gate. If another person watches my replays, they might see a ton of cheese. I'm just oblivious to it because I didn't get hit hard by it or I just couldn't be bothered to scout it out =S
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On April 25 2012 00:37 Heh_ wrote:
On April 25 2012 00:13 deathly rat wrote:
Haha, sorry about the "My Friend" part. When I'm writing like this, I automatically write to the second person view instead of the third person.
On April 25 2012 00:13 JingleHell wrote:
The part about subjective cheese is probably very true. Everybody probably has their own definition of cheese. Mine is limited to extreme allins, like 6pools or proxy rax/gate. If another person watches my replays, they might see a ton of cheese. I'm just oblivious to it because I didn't get hit hard by it or I just couldn't be bothered to scout it out =S
It really is a key to the whole puzzle though, is remembering that skill levels vary. A lot of times, when higher levels see someone die to a really delayed one base all-in, they just instantly go full stupid mode and forget that the person it's working on is not smurfing, instead, they're actually similarly bad, just possibly in slightly different ways.
Just like putting a kids sports team up against pro or Olympic athletes would be a stupid comparison, comparing higher league play to Bronze play and expecting a Bronze to do things as well is pretty moronic, yet a lot of people insist on making that exact comparison.
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EPT
