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This is my first post. I’ve been a lurker for a while, but the recent fascination about bronze league intrigued me. There are so many threads and blogs about it: here, here, here and here. So, what defines bronze league? We hear claims about how terrible bronze leaguers are, while these people counterclaim that their macro is pretty good, and they should be in some higher league but Blizzard just aren’t promoting them.
So, which of these viewpoints tell the truth? What about the other leagues? How good are they? Utilizing the ladder reset as a starting point, I ventured down into the depths of bronze league.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/znMs0.jpg)
Note that I continued dropping games after this message in order to hit rock bottom.
After I’m pretty sure that my MMR has reached the negative digits, I proceeded to ascertain the skill level of bronze leaguers. For my first real match, I decided to build a PF, set a bunch of workers to autorepair, then afk. No missile turrets. Guess what happened.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6lXre.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/enfeg.jpg)
So I’m still alive, and the PF hasn’t even encountered any action with the exception of that lone scouting marine? What is my opponent thinking? Good question. What am I thinking? WTF? Let me mass expand, get a ton of BCs and kill him.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iw2O9.jpg)
In the process of building my BC army, he harasses my expos with a few cloaked banshees. Finally, a sign that he’s still playing the game! I win shortly afterwards.
In the spirit of Destiny’s mass queens strat, I decided to experiment to show how pure macro can get you into higher leagues. Since I decided to play random (portrait farming FTW), I built only queens, sentries or hellions, a la monobattles style, and just win with them. I initially wanted to use vikings, but after getting terran T1 rushed twice, I decided to stick to hellions. Outcome? It’s super effective!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jmcFd.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cvcUW.jpg)
Of course, in the process of doing this, I met a few tryhards who think they stand a fighting chance.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TudlB.jpg)
After beating an endless stream of bronzies with this ‘broken’ tactic, I came to a conclusion. Bronze players are REALLY bad. They can’t macro at all. If you just work purely on your macro, I assure you that you’ll get out. They will argue that all the cheese/weird build orders will throw you off the game. Wrong. I’ve only encountered a few (<5%) games where I get allin-ed, and the weird build orders don’t faze me at all. Just macro and you’ll win games.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/81h0o.jpg)
Note that while in bronze, I played 2 games against plat players. Now I understand some of the complaints about “Blizzard doesn’t promote me”.
Silver league is a slightly different game. After my MMR had risen sufficiently to encounter silver league players, I noticed a distinct improvement in ability. They will make a timing push, although it might be significantly weaker than a well-executed one. It COULD be held with queens, sentries and hellions, but after 2 failed attempts (my queens didn’t win vs mass roaches) I decided to do a solid opener, then transition into mass bc/carrier/ultralisk, the three worst t3 units. And they still work.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jZStk.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zqJF9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VNPCz.jpg)
I didn’t really continue this trend for long though. The players started to get better, and I didn’t feel like losing in the silliest way possible. So, against gold/plat players, I played pretty standard except I almost never harassed. My macro isn’t the best but hey, it’s still sufficient to beat most gold/plat league players.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A2qRp.jpg)
After 88 wins, I finally got promoted to gold league. I will continue this trend, until I’m no longer good enough to get promoted. Will I get to GM? Don’t think so. You guys can figure out the skill of GM players by yourself.
As they say, replays or it didn't happen. Here you go. Replay packs are divided into Bronze and Silver. Not the opponent's league, my league.
Notes: How good am I? I’m not sure either. The last 1v1 games that I played were in season 1. In the subsequent seasons, I played only team games and got into master league for random teams. What is my league in ladder? Watch the replays and tell me.
 
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Good read, It would be interesting from a research point of view if you asked your bronze opponents at the start of the game how long they have been in bronze, and if they felt like they belonged there.
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On April 24 2012 11:23 GreYMisT wrote:
Good read, It would be interesting from a research point of view if you asked your bronze opponents at the start of the game how long they have been in bronze, and if they felt like they belonged there.
That would be a good idea, although I feel bad because I'm already trolling them by busting a fortified position using only hellions. It's like rubbing salt into a wound. I think an easier way would be to look at their ladder history, although that takes a ton of time. I could do it if people are interested.
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Even when I was on my old diamond account again I noticed you can win with pure macro generally. Examples being holding off almost all Terran strategies with just ling/bane and the queens for AA, or doing the Stephano style zvp minus any form of scouting, or 14-14 mass speedling in zvz(this one required quite a bit of micro against ling/bane openings but still very easy). I'd say the macro>everything outlook from masters/GM players is completely true, the only thing I can say is that lower league players might not understand the subtelty of having good macro. Things like mining from the closest mineral patches early on, to things like ALWAYS having perfect saturation(16 on minerals) to spending money properly. Low league players might think they are spending their money well and not getting supply blocked, but if they are just building supply everytime they hit the cap or not constantly building workers and making sure their money is always spent, sure their money may be low the whole game and they might always be building supply when they hit the cap but this is not good macro.
TL;DR Low league players think they have good macro because they don't actually know what macro is and if they did they would not be low league anymore.
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Whats the point of this? So you destroyed a bunch of low level players. Congrats?
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On April 24 2012 12:30 Initiative wrote:
Whats the point of this? So you destroyed a bunch of low level players. Congrats?
What's the point of this? So you created a post. Congrats?
But seriously this is his blog you don't need to be harshin' his mellow, man.
On a more bloggish related note, you definitely need to do some more research and ts get some random fun statistics like the average amount of workers made per game, or total time supply blocked compared to game length. For science!
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On April 24 2012 12:30 Initiative wrote:
Whats the point of this? So you destroyed a bunch of low level players. Congrats?
I actually find this to be a pretty cool research project.
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On April 24 2012 12:30 Initiative wrote:
Whats the point of this? So you destroyed a bunch of low level players. Congrats?
I'm doing this because the ladder skill of low level players is highly disputed. Time and again, they will claim that their macro is good, they didn't do anything wrong, the opponent's race is OP etc. When you look at their replays, you see glaring problems with their macro. A perfect example is here. Look at pimsc2's comment and Irre's reply.
Also, I'm thinking of collecting more statistics like the other people have suggested. That means a larger sample size.
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I realize you posted one of them but Gheed has like 8 blogs for this. I'm interested to see how you do in gold/plat with silly things based solely off macro though. good luck 
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My friend recently got SC2 and with enthusiasm set about the ladder. He got placed in bronze and has yet to win a single game. It made me realise that there really is a lot to learn about SC2 before you can start to play with any kind intelligent strategies.
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I'm bored right now, going to check some of those bronze replays for some laughs.
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On April 24 2012 20:54 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 12:30 Initiative wrote:
Whats the point of this? So you destroyed a bunch of low level players. Congrats? I'm doing this because the ladder skill of low level players is highly disputed. Time and again, they will claim that their macro is good, they didn't do anything wrong, the opponent's race is OP etc. When you look at their replays, you see glaring problems with their macro. A perfect example is here. Look at pimsc2's comment and Irre's reply. Also, I'm thinking of collecting more statistics like the other people have suggested. That means a larger sample size.
Would be even better to compare individual regions of bronze. I mean KR bronze is equivalent to NA GM right?
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On April 24 2012 22:16 deathly rat wrote:
My friend recently got SC2 and with enthusiasm set about the ladder. He got placed in bronze and has yet to win a single game. It made me realise that there really is a lot to learn about SC2 before you can start to play with any kind intelligent strategies.
Judging by responses I've seen, your friend is clearly refusing to see his own mistakes, because it's SO easy to instantly macro well enough to get to masters that there shouldn't even BE leagues below masters anymore!
And knowing that he needs practice isn't good enough. He has to also lick the boots of anyone who tells him he sucks, or he'll never improve.
Oh, and of course, he isn't allowed to dislike practicing against the AI, because doing things you enjoy in a game is heresy.
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On April 24 2012 23:22 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 22:16 deathly rat wrote:
My friend recently got SC2 and with enthusiasm set about the ladder. He got placed in bronze and has yet to win a single game. It made me realise that there really is a lot to learn about SC2 before you can start to play with any kind intelligent strategies. Judging by responses I've seen, your friend is clearly refusing to see his own mistakes, because it's SO easy to instantly macro well enough to get to masters that there shouldn't even BE leagues below masters anymore! And knowing that he needs practice isn't good enough. He has to also lick the boots of anyone who tells him he sucks, or he'll never improve. Oh, and of course, he isn't allowed to dislike practicing against the AI, because doing things you enjoy in a game is heresy.
right on brother
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On April 24 2012 21:42 OmniEulogy wrote:I realize you posted one of them but Gheed has like 8 blogs for this. I'm interested to see how you do in gold/plat with silly things based solely off macro though. good luck
I only linked the most recent blog post from Gheed so I don't clutter up the opening paragraph with links. There are hundreds of "help me my macro is good but my opponent is OP" posts but it's impossible to link all of them. These are a select few. I can definitely do weird stuff in gold/plat. What do you want to see? Hydras in ZvT?
On April 24 2012 22:16 deathly rat wrote:
My friend recently got SC2 and with enthusiasm set about the ladder. He got placed in bronze and has yet to win a single game. It made me realise that there really is a lot to learn about SC2 before you can start to play with any kind intelligent strategies.
I would say that if your MMR drops to rock bottom, you would win matches just because you get matched up with leaverbots. That's not a true win though. I would tell your friend that if he wants to win, follow what is outlined in Cecil's thread. Build workers constantly, don't get supply blocked, build production buildings and use your money. He will DEFINITELY get out of bronze.
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On April 24 2012 23:22 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 22:16 deathly rat wrote:
My friend recently got SC2 and with enthusiasm set about the ladder. He got placed in bronze and has yet to win a single game. It made me realise that there really is a lot to learn about SC2 before you can start to play with any kind intelligent strategies. Judging by responses I've seen, your friend is clearly refusing to see his own mistakes, because it's SO easy to instantly macro well enough to get to masters that there shouldn't even BE leagues below masters anymore! And knowing that he needs practice isn't good enough. He has to also lick the boots of anyone who tells him he sucks, or he'll never improve. Oh, and of course, he isn't allowed to dislike practicing against the AI, because doing things you enjoy in a game is heresy.
My porch mat is 100% chocolate so boot licking might not be that bad.
Also I agree, skill levels (MMRs) were made to make ladder fun for everyone. Someone below or above you on ladder doesn't impact your games at all, so why tell others off?
Please see my previous post for statistics suggestions!!! :D
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yeah, the problem is he is getting demotivated whilst his MMR drops to a level where he is matched to people his skill level. I think a big problem for new players and low level players who are trying to play the game the right way is that they are completely unable to deal with any kind of cheese/early pressure, but they meet this kind of thing on ladder all the time because other shitty players who have been beaten by this sort of thing resort to doing it themselves in order to get some wins and therefore feel less bad about themselves playing the game.
The sort of thing that they fall to is cannon rushes (a lot), mass gateway all-ins, huge zergling all-ins, mass mutas etc etc. I'm trying to teach my friend how to scout these things and we play 2v2s for fun, but I have no idea how a new player who was alone would be able to work out this stuff without quitting from demotivation.
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On April 24 2012 23:54 Anacletus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 23:22 JingleHell wrote:On April 24 2012 22:16 deathly rat wrote:
My friend recently got SC2 and with enthusiasm set about the ladder. He got placed in bronze and has yet to win a single game. It made me realise that there really is a lot to learn about SC2 before you can start to play with any kind intelligent strategies. Judging by responses I've seen, your friend is clearly refusing to see his own mistakes, because it's SO easy to instantly macro well enough to get to masters that there shouldn't even BE leagues below masters anymore! And knowing that he needs practice isn't good enough. He has to also lick the boots of anyone who tells him he sucks, or he'll never improve. Oh, and of course, he isn't allowed to dislike practicing against the AI, because doing things you enjoy in a game is heresy. My porch mat is 100% chocolate so boot licking might not be that bad. Also I agree, skill levels (MMRs) were made to make ladder fun for everyone. Someone below or above you on ladder doesn't impact your games at all, so why tell others off? Please see my previous post for statistics suggestions!!! :D
Because a lot of people see what they want to see in a post. Any time a Bronze player mentions the bizarre shit they run up against, it's instantly an attempt to blame their losses on anything besides themselves, even if the opening of the post includes the words "I suck".
As soon as they decide to see it as whining, they decide to try to lay an "intellectual" smackdown on people by saying that every single player should be masters, because macro is easy.
Funny, most of the people posting these things aren't winning tournaments, I don't know why, all they have to do is play well above their level, which clearly doesn't require any PRACTICE.
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On April 24 2012 23:59 deathly rat wrote:
yeah, the problem is he is getting demotivated whilst his MMR drops to a level where he is matched to people his skill level. I think a big problem for new players and low level players who are trying to play the game the right way is that they are completely unable to deal with any kind of cheese/early pressure, but they meet this kind of thing on ladder all the time because other shitty players who have been beaten by this sort of thing resort to doing it themselves in order to get some wins and therefore feel less bad about themselves playing the game.
The sort of thing that they fall to is cannon rushes (a lot), mass gateway all-ins, huge zergling all-ins, mass mutas etc etc. I'm trying to teach my friend how to scout these things and we play 2v2s for fun, but I have no idea how a new player who was alone would be able to work out this stuff without quitting from demotivation.
Although I agree that dealing with cheese is demoralizing, I think that you're overstating the problem. In all my games getting out of bronze (and into gold so far), I've never seen a 6pool or proxy rax/gate. I've only seen a handful of allins, but most of them come ridiculously late (and weak) to do any significant damage. Unless someone is able to prove me wrong by providing a replay pack where he gets cheesed every single game. The reason why you keep noticing these games is that they occupy more attention than a game that you just won easily. It's like how you feel that you're stopped at every traffic light junction. Theoretically, it should be 50%. You zoom past the green lights, and stop (and think) at the red lights. Same thing goes for cheese. It makes you rage and think more about the games.
If you just play standard and safe, your MMR will gradually increase. Even if you lose to these cheeses, they're only small bumps along the road.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 24 2012 23:59 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 23:54 Anacletus wrote:On April 24 2012 23:22 JingleHell wrote:On April 24 2012 22:16 deathly rat wrote:
My friend recently got SC2 and with enthusiasm set about the ladder. He got placed in bronze and has yet to win a single game. It made me realise that there really is a lot to learn about SC2 before you can start to play with any kind intelligent strategies. Judging by responses I've seen, your friend is clearly refusing to see his own mistakes, because it's SO easy to instantly macro well enough to get to masters that there shouldn't even BE leagues below masters anymore! And knowing that he needs practice isn't good enough. He has to also lick the boots of anyone who tells him he sucks, or he'll never improve. Oh, and of course, he isn't allowed to dislike practicing against the AI, because doing things you enjoy in a game is heresy. My porch mat is 100% chocolate so boot licking might not be that bad. Also I agree, skill levels (MMRs) were made to make ladder fun for everyone. Someone below or above you on ladder doesn't impact your games at all, so why tell others off? Please see my previous post for statistics suggestions!!! :D Because a lot of people see what they want to see in a post. Any time a Bronze player mentions the bizarre shit they run up against, it's instantly an attempt to blame their losses on anything besides themselves, even if the opening of the post includes the words "I suck". As soon as they decide to see it as whining, they decide to try to lay an "intellectual" smackdown on people by saying that every single player should be masters, because macro is easy. Funny, most of the people posting these things aren't winning tournaments, I don't know why, all they have to do is play well above their level, which clearly doesn't require any PRACTICE.
Yeah man, it always bugs me to no end to see people bashing on others about league or something like that. I often like to join peepmode games (I'm not sure if other servers have this, but it's basically KOTH+observers) to offrace as Protoss or Terran and it's silly how bm some people are at times. I started in bronze in beta playing random and got up to platinum and switched to Zerg and am now well off in masters with some wins vs numerous gms including top 16 players. So I know what it's like being low leveled and to just try and improve and to get bashed just for trying to play. But at the same time I am confidently high enough to counter-bash the jerk-offs who like to rustle those poor player's jimmies. So unleashing some pent up frustration on idiots is pretty nice at times.
Edit: I am not bragging in any ways, just pointing out my ability to wreck some of the bm players and listing credit to be able to do so. I really don't want to be seen as bragging, as I am FAR from pro in every way!
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On April 25 2012 00:06 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 23:59 deathly rat wrote:
yeah, the problem is he is getting demotivated whilst his MMR drops to a level where he is matched to people his skill level. I think a big problem for new players and low level players who are trying to play the game the right way is that they are completely unable to deal with any kind of cheese/early pressure, but they meet this kind of thing on ladder all the time because other shitty players who have been beaten by this sort of thing resort to doing it themselves in order to get some wins and therefore feel less bad about themselves playing the game.
The sort of thing that they fall to is cannon rushes (a lot), mass gateway all-ins, huge zergling all-ins, mass mutas etc etc. I'm trying to teach my friend how to scout these things and we play 2v2s for fun, but I have no idea how a new player who was alone would be able to work out this stuff without quitting from demotivation. Although I agree that dealing with cheese is demoralizing, I think that you're overstating the problem. In all my games getting out of bronze (and into gold so far), I've never seen a 6pool or proxy rax/gate. I've only seen a handful of allins, but most of them come ridiculously late (and weak) to do any significant damage. Unless someone is able to prove me wrong by providing a replay pack where he gets cheesed every single game. The reason why you keep noticing these games is that they occupy more attention than a game that you just won easily. It's like how you feel that you're stopped at every traffic light junction. Theoretically, it should be 50%. You zoom past the green lights, and stop (and think) at the red lights. Same thing goes for cheese. It makes you rage and think more about the games. If you just play standard and safe, your MMR will gradually increase. Even if you lose to these cheeses, they're only small bumps along the road.
Hey "My Friend" isn't some pseudonym for myself. I know how to fight this shit, but he doesn't. For example, his very first game the guy cannon rushes him the hardcore way, like nothing else in his base apart from a forge. My friend has no idea even what a cannon rush is, never mind how to beat it.
I'm not saying that every game is cheesey for him, but about 1/2 the games are either cheese or 1 base all-in.
However, that isn't even the whole issue. As I said, there is a lot to learn when you first play SC2 from a no-knowledge of the game stand point which i had forgotten. Like for example, my friend will stay on one base for way too long. So, when he finds out the guy has had another base the whole time it is too late.
My point is in order to have a sensible game of SC2 you need quite a large amount of game information, then you can build on this to improve empirically.
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On April 25 2012 00:06 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 23:59 deathly rat wrote:
yeah, the problem is he is getting demotivated whilst his MMR drops to a level where he is matched to people his skill level. I think a big problem for new players and low level players who are trying to play the game the right way is that they are completely unable to deal with any kind of cheese/early pressure, but they meet this kind of thing on ladder all the time because other shitty players who have been beaten by this sort of thing resort to doing it themselves in order to get some wins and therefore feel less bad about themselves playing the game.
The sort of thing that they fall to is cannon rushes (a lot), mass gateway all-ins, huge zergling all-ins, mass mutas etc etc. I'm trying to teach my friend how to scout these things and we play 2v2s for fun, but I have no idea how a new player who was alone would be able to work out this stuff without quitting from demotivation. Although I agree that dealing with cheese is demoralizing, I think that you're overstating the problem. In all my games getting out of bronze (and into gold so far), I've never seen a 6pool or proxy rax/gate. I've only seen a handful of allins, but most of them come ridiculously late (and weak) to do any significant damage. Unless someone is able to prove me wrong by providing a replay pack where he gets cheesed every single game. The reason why you keep noticing these games is that they occupy more attention than a game that you just won easily. It's like how you feel that you're stopped at every traffic light junction. Theoretically, it should be 50%. You zoom past the green lights, and stop (and think) at the red lights. Same thing goes for cheese. It makes you rage and think more about the games. If you just play standard and safe, your MMR will gradually increase. Even if you lose to these cheeses, they're only small bumps along the road.
While I agree in theory, I'd say your anecdotal evidence is probably no better than his, possibly worse, since your statistical sampling has the potential to be a good bit smaller since you're playing above that level and just need to bounce back up.
No, you don't see cheese every game, and well executed cheese is particularly rare, but you need to also consider this: For a legit Bronze vs a smurf, well executed cheese is subjective. If a plat gets cheesed by a top tier pro, he's going to get wrecked the majority of the time.
In other words, if the MMRs are actually supposed to be close to even, odds are the cheese will be executed sufficiently skillfully for that MMR.
This is why, if someone isn't particularly fond of practicing with no opponent (which is less fun when you suck at the game anyways), it can be harder to get out of Bronze for a Bronze player than a smurf. We don't HAVE that caliber of mechanics yet to be maxed at the 12 minute mark, so for the level of play, the stupid shit is sufficient.
Note, I'm using "cheese" here for an easy descriptor, not as some sort of complaint.
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On April 25 2012 00:13 deathly rat wrote:
Haha, sorry about the "My Friend" part. When I'm writing like this, I automatically write to the second person view instead of the third person.
On April 25 2012 00:13 JingleHell wrote:
The part about subjective cheese is probably very true. Everybody probably has their own definition of cheese. Mine is limited to extreme allins, like 6pools or proxy rax/gate. If another person watches my replays, they might see a ton of cheese. I'm just oblivious to it because I didn't get hit hard by it or I just couldn't be bothered to scout it out =S
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On April 25 2012 00:37 Heh_ wrote:
On April 25 2012 00:13 deathly rat wrote:
Haha, sorry about the "My Friend" part. When I'm writing like this, I automatically write to the second person view instead of the third person.
On April 25 2012 00:13 JingleHell wrote:
The part about subjective cheese is probably very true. Everybody probably has their own definition of cheese. Mine is limited to extreme allins, like 6pools or proxy rax/gate. If another person watches my replays, they might see a ton of cheese. I'm just oblivious to it because I didn't get hit hard by it or I just couldn't be bothered to scout it out =S
It really is a key to the whole puzzle though, is remembering that skill levels vary. A lot of times, when higher levels see someone die to a really delayed one base all-in, they just instantly go full stupid mode and forget that the person it's working on is not smurfing, instead, they're actually similarly bad, just possibly in slightly different ways.
Just like putting a kids sports team up against pro or Olympic athletes would be a stupid comparison, comparing higher league play to Bronze play and expecting a Bronze to do things as well is pretty moronic, yet a lot of people insist on making that exact comparison.
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EPT
