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Edit: You can ask critical questions about a team without burying a thread in a negativity. Don't use this thread as an opportunity to bash EG or any of its players.
Half a year ago, a TL writer sparked a controversy by prematurely questioning the EG training house based on a few months of player results. Artosis famously defended EG by retorting that BW team houses didn't even evaluate a player until they had a year of practice in a house. I think Artosis' comparison was wrong, but I still can't decide whether a team house's worth should be measured by results.
BW houses take longer to evaluate players because BW is more developed than SC2. Because BW players are better at BW than SC2 players are at SC2, it takes longer for developing BW players to reach a competitive level. So, just as it's unfair for a BW veteran to compare a 2 year old SC2 match with a 12 year old BW one, it's also unfair for Artosis to suggest that a SC2 player should be given as much time to develop as a BW one. Huk became one of the best SC2 players in the world after about six months of intense practice. If he had played BW for those 6 months instead, he wouldn't be competing with Flash.
It's been about 8 months since EG established their house now, and at least in my opinion, it's fair to say the team house environment hasn't provided the resident players with a competitive advantage. Incontrol's mechanics have improved, Machine can sometimes pass for Ret in a game instead of Idra at a party, and Demuslim is a top foreign Terran -- But they haven't gained ground on the competition. Demuslim in particular has seen his position among foreigners drop.
So, is the EG house a failure? It has improved the standard of living for EG's SC2 team. It helps facilitate incredible casting combinations like Incontrol and Idra during EGMC games. And the house lends legitimacy to entire foreign SC2 scene. How can you call that failure? I can't say for sure.
The question is: Do you think a training house which builds a team's brand, but doesn't improve a team's players, can be called a success?
 
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
if they didn't feel having the house was worthwhile they would probably get rid of it
dum thread
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I've seen this thread before and it went nowhere.
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i think a team house is always improving ppl, it forces them to play more and be in an evoirment where everyone practices, and i agree with rekrul, if it didnt pay off they would have probally moved to their own house again.
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Talent goes into EG, people come out.
Not sure where it goes.
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On April 21 2012 08:44 Rekrul wrote:
if they didn't feel having the house was worthwhile they would probably get rid of it
dum thread
That's a very practical way to look at it. Maybe it's the right way. But EG won't tell the community: this house isn't working, we're going to shut it down next year. They'll tell us it's a success until they close it down. That's just smart marketing.
And even if something is making money, does that mean I have to consider it a success? In one way yes, but not in every way. And maybe it won't make money forever? Maybe for a team house to work, you have to keep developing players? Maybe the way the house is working now is shortsighted? I'm still undecided.
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On April 21 2012 08:49 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Talent goes into EG, people come out.
Not sure where it goes.
like who?
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I think everyone is aware that the EG training house does not mimic the Brood War team house environment.
That being said I think it does a lot for their team image, and it sets them one step above almost any other foreign team in that regard, so yeah I'd say it's paying off.
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I've been saying it from the get go, its kind of luxurious. They say they are trying to be like the Korean teams who have team houses but the Korean team houses are are from luxurious. They do not have individual bedrooms, they don't have a pool, they don't have giant T.V.s and stuff. They don't have little animals running around everywhere or girlfriends hanging over their shoulders. They sit in their cramped room and actually focus on starcraft. I think that's why they show lots of skill and the E.G. people haven't been showing overly spectacular results.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On April 21 2012 08:50 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 08:44 Rekrul wrote:
if they didn't feel having the house was worthwhile they would probably get rid of it
dum thread That's a very practical way to look at it. Maybe it's the right way. But EG won't tell the community: this house isn't working, we're going to shut it down next year. They'll tell us it's a success until they close it down. That's just smart marketing. And even if something is making money, does that mean I have to consider it a success? In one way yes, but not in every way. And maybe it won't make money forever? Maybe for a team house to work, you have to keep developing players? Maybe the way the house is working now is shortsighted?
it is a crux for their team, helps practice, keeps team unity alive, is a place for people to stay between events, etc...
even if it's no korean team-house in terms of player skill development it's stupid to suggest it might not be worthwhile
these things should be obvious, and as i said if they didn't feel they needed it they'd get rid of it (unless they own it instead of rent it...then ofc it doesn't fkin matter wat they do with it)
still a dum thread
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Most of the top EG players (Huk, JYP, Puma) are actually not in the EG house very often, even Idra is only there for brief periods. I think if all these players were together with Machine, Demuslim and InControl, then the burning competitive spirit of these top top players would bring their level up. Without them there I really don't see the drive from these 2nd tier EG players to absolutely be the best and to go out and not just compete, but win those tournaments.
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Not much to discuss here.
You can't even really ask a question like that, it's like ignoring half the reason the house even exists in my opinion.
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The EG Lair isn't only for StarCraft 2 I believe. Primarily they have the EG.SC2 team there, but don't they have other EG teams stay there sometimes too?
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If it builds esports then it is a success.
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I'm sure the EG house makes it much more attractive to join EG. Ofc, one would wonder whether it would be more worthwhile to consider a more rigorous training environment.
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Don't forget that the EG house also allows their korean players to practice in America in order to get on a better schedule for American events.
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I think a lot of these things have already been discussed, and the argument is no different still.
Whenever this "issue" is discussed it makes me go -_-
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Im under the impression that rent and living expenses is taken from the wages (or at least part of it) of the long-term residents? In which case, its a sweet deal for all (as long as their willing to live there and put the effort in) in the sense that EG is paying them but at the same time gaining the benefit of better training (hence better results, more money all that crap.) while keeping their players and staff (anna) happy.
If you look at it that way it really is a win-win situation, because even if the players arent getting increased results from it (im not saying they're not) the costs of it are really covered with their wages anyhow, and the players are happy because, well, they're getting a giant house, awesome living conditions regardless.
If its not done that way and EG fronts the entire bill then wages (or bill + living expenses then wages) then i could see it being a bit expensive if after time the results dont pour in, but then they could always switch to that model anyway, im sure with the amount of people staying there long-term its very viable to live comfortably.
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Erm, I believe that EG players don't even play that much a day... like 8 hours MAX. Idra probably plays more since he's been in BW style practice house...
Incontrol and others... they go to gym and etc etc. so.. eh... not that much practice.
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Hmmm, I see I see.
Well, that brings us to item two on our list, TLO's ginormous beard; specifically, is it working?
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On April 21 2012 10:18 klibrt wrote:
Erm, I believe that EG players don't even play that much a day... like 8 hours MAX. Idra probably plays more since he's been in BW style practice house...
Incontrol and others... they go to gym and etc etc. so.. eh... not that much practice.
8 hours of playing a day is honestly probably the most anybody who's not in korea plays.
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just having a central place where they can have the koreans and huk fly to and stay in comfort when doing foreign events alone makes it a big success
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8748 Posts
the house hasn't magically transformed players into different, better players. but i think it has served its purpose so far. i think that it's wise for teams to have a house in the US because of how many tournaments there are here and because you can pick one of many suburbs across the country that have very good rental rates on big houses. i think that finding a well built house with good internet in a cheap suburb near the west coast for good latency to korea is a really good idea. most teams don't have the extra money floating around to try something like that though
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If they even wanted a serious practice ground like the koreans they failed for sure. It just feels like everyone has gotten worse over time. And no wonder when you have your girlfriends living in your practice house and with dogs running around barking all the time and shit like that (anyone watching Demuslims stream while he has the mic on knows whats up). And on top of that their play doesn't really show that they are playing that much like their korean competition.
BW progamers have the no GF policy and strict practice schedule for a reason. :3
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Of course it's a success for the organization, and probably fun for the players to live in.
It's only not successful in a way that most people had (unrealistically) expected it to be when it was announced. Then again I don't think they were ever going for that in the first place. It simply serves its intended purpose - which isn't player development.
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I think the people of the EG house have definitely improved at a rate better than similarly skilled teams that do not have a house. There are, of course, few exceptions of people who defy that comment, but the EG house does allow for other productions like the EGMC and other team responsibilities, to be much easier. While the skill level hasn't transcended above everything else that the foreign market can offer, it has dramatically increased the popularity of lesser known players, and definitely given more knowledge of the personality of the players. Would we have known about DeMuslim's gf if it were not for the house? Probably not. Would we have known about all the pets or the small bits like Machine's food challenges?
I think the interview with Puma on EG's site best says it. Players in Korea go "all in" with their training, whereas the training environment in America (and the eg house) is more lax.
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On April 21 2012 11:46 Skuller wrote:
I think the people of the EG house have definitely improved at a rate better than similarly skilled teams that do not have a house. There are, of course, few exceptions of people who defy that comment, but the EG house does allow for other productions like the EGMC and other team responsibilities, to be much easier. While the skill level hasn't transcended above everything else that the foreign market can offer, it has dramatically increased the popularity of lesser known players, and definitely given more knowledge of the personality of the players. Would we have known about DeMuslim's gf if it were not for the house? Probably not. Would we have known about all the pets or the small bits like Machine's food challenges?
I think the interview with Puma on EG's site best says it. Players in Korea go "all in" with their training, whereas the training environment in America (and the eg house) is more lax.
That was JYP's interview.
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On April 21 2012 10:18 klibrt wrote:
Erm, I believe that EG players don't even play that much a day... like 8 hours MAX. Idra probably plays more since he's been in BW style practice house...
Incontrol and others... they go to gym and etc etc. so.. eh... not that much practice.
lol? so what you know exactly what their schedules are like? this sounds like a retarded comment since you obviously don't actually know.
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Theres an insane amount of variables that your not even looking at. Especially if your just looking at results from tournaments.
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I don't think so, personally.
From a financial standpoint, I'm sure the organization that is EG profits from having the team house operational, however. More people tune in to the player streams, they sell some more t-shirts and EG makes more money. The "casual, primarily young North American audience", which I assume be the majority of EG's fanbase, enjoy seeing dogs running around and an occasional 5 second glimpse of someone's girlfriend. It's not about the high level of play and results, team EG is about characters and profits.
Of course, team EG does a lot of good for the community as a whole. They do casting, host tours etc. and I'm sure "esports" benefits from having a team EG around.
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EG is more than a a group that competes in tournaments. They're a brand that creates content. Their house creates a better atmosphere among their players, and their fans see that. They also have the EG leagues and such. That's what makes them marketable and makes their esports careers sustainable.
so yes, i think that the EG house is well worth it. I feel like people expected them to come out and win everything. They had a few good results last year in tournaments. You can never expect one team to dominate.
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On April 21 2012 08:54 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 08:50 -_- wrote:On April 21 2012 08:44 Rekrul wrote:
if they didn't feel having the house was worthwhile they would probably get rid of it
dum thread That's a very practical way to look at it. Maybe it's the right way. But EG won't tell the community: this house isn't working, we're going to shut it down next year. They'll tell us it's a success until they close it down. That's just smart marketing. And even if something is making money, does that mean I have to consider it a success? In one way yes, but not in every way. And maybe it won't make money forever? Maybe for a team house to work, you have to keep developing players? Maybe the way the house is working now is shortsighted? it is a crux for their team, helps practice, keeps team unity alive, is a place for people to stay between events, etc... even if it's no korean team-house in terms of player skill development it's stupid to suggest it might not be worthwhile these things should be obvious, and as i said if they didn't feel they needed it they'd get rid of it (unless they own it instead of rent it...then ofc it doesn't fkin matter wat they do with it) still a dum thread
It didn't help the practice enough for a significant improvement in results, this is like the first time somebody ever emphasised team unity in all the TL threads about sc2 (so i doubt team unity has much value) and people can stay elsewhere between events.
Are you like in cahoots with EG's owner or something? No offense but you usually make smart posts.
On April 21 2012 11:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the house hasn't magically transformed players into different, better players. but i think it has served its purpose so far. i think that it's wise for teams to have a house in the US because of how many tournaments there are here and because you can pick one of many suburbs across the country that have very good rental rates on big houses. i think that finding a well built house with good internet in a cheap suburb near the west coast for good latency to korea is a really good idea. most teams don't have the extra money floating around to try something like that though
The team house was designed with the aim of raising their players' skill levels up to the level of koreans (they thought not having teamhouses was why most foreigners couldn't keep up with the koreans), so no, it has not served its purpose.
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On April 21 2012 20:15 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 08:54 Rekrul wrote:On April 21 2012 08:50 -_- wrote:On April 21 2012 08:44 Rekrul wrote:
if they didn't feel having the house was worthwhile they would probably get rid of it
dum thread That's a very practical way to look at it. Maybe it's the right way. But EG won't tell the community: this house isn't working, we're going to shut it down next year. They'll tell us it's a success until they close it down. That's just smart marketing. And even if something is making money, does that mean I have to consider it a success? In one way yes, but not in every way. And maybe it won't make money forever? Maybe for a team house to work, you have to keep developing players? Maybe the way the house is working now is shortsighted? it is a crux for their team, helps practice, keeps team unity alive, is a place for people to stay between events, etc... even if it's no korean team-house in terms of player skill development it's stupid to suggest it might not be worthwhile these things should be obvious, and as i said if they didn't feel they needed it they'd get rid of it (unless they own it instead of rent it...then ofc it doesn't fkin matter wat they do with it) still a dum thread It didn't help the practice enough for a significant improvement in results, this is like the first time somebody ever emphasised team unity in all the TL threads about sc2 (so i doubt team unity has much value) and people can stay elsewhere between events. Are you like in cahoots with EG's owner or something? No offense but you usually make smart posts. Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 11:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the house hasn't magically transformed players into different, better players. but i think it has served its purpose so far. i think that it's wise for teams to have a house in the US because of how many tournaments there are here and because you can pick one of many suburbs across the country that have very good rental rates on big houses. i think that finding a well built house with good internet in a cheap suburb near the west coast for good latency to korea is a really good idea. most teams don't have the extra money floating around to try something like that though The team house was designed with the aim of raising their players' skill levels up to the level of koreans (they thought not having teamhouses was why most foreigners couldn't keep up with the koreans), so no, it has not served its purpose.
really ignorant comment
in pre interviews (which you can find on the EG YouTube page) they claimed it would be helpful, beneficial, etc bring them together, but never claimed it would make them as good as koreans
yes it is serving its purpose
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On April 21 2012 21:37 Rulker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 20:15 Cubu wrote:On April 21 2012 08:54 Rekrul wrote:On April 21 2012 08:50 -_- wrote:On April 21 2012 08:44 Rekrul wrote:
if they didn't feel having the house was worthwhile they would probably get rid of it
dum thread That's a very practical way to look at it. Maybe it's the right way. But EG won't tell the community: this house isn't working, we're going to shut it down next year. They'll tell us it's a success until they close it down. That's just smart marketing. And even if something is making money, does that mean I have to consider it a success? In one way yes, but not in every way. And maybe it won't make money forever? Maybe for a team house to work, you have to keep developing players? Maybe the way the house is working now is shortsighted? it is a crux for their team, helps practice, keeps team unity alive, is a place for people to stay between events, etc... even if it's no korean team-house in terms of player skill development it's stupid to suggest it might not be worthwhile these things should be obvious, and as i said if they didn't feel they needed it they'd get rid of it (unless they own it instead of rent it...then ofc it doesn't fkin matter wat they do with it) still a dum thread It didn't help the practice enough for a significant improvement in results, this is like the first time somebody ever emphasised team unity in all the TL threads about sc2 (so i doubt team unity has much value) and people can stay elsewhere between events. Are you like in cahoots with EG's owner or something? No offense but you usually make smart posts. On April 21 2012 11:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the house hasn't magically transformed players into different, better players. but i think it has served its purpose so far. i think that it's wise for teams to have a house in the US because of how many tournaments there are here and because you can pick one of many suburbs across the country that have very good rental rates on big houses. i think that finding a well built house with good internet in a cheap suburb near the west coast for good latency to korea is a really good idea. most teams don't have the extra money floating around to try something like that though The team house was designed with the aim of raising their players' skill levels up to the level of koreans (they thought not having teamhouses was why most foreigners couldn't keep up with the koreans), so no, it has not served its purpose. really ignorant comment in pre interviews (which you can find on the EG YouTube page) they claimed it would be helpful, beneficial, etc bring them together, but never claimed it would make them as good as koreans yes it is serving its purpose
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249846 You will find your answer there.
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On April 21 2012 22:56 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 21:37 Rulker wrote:On April 21 2012 20:15 Cubu wrote:On April 21 2012 08:54 Rekrul wrote:On April 21 2012 08:50 -_- wrote:On April 21 2012 08:44 Rekrul wrote:
if they didn't feel having the house was worthwhile they would probably get rid of it
dum thread That's a very practical way to look at it. Maybe it's the right way. But EG won't tell the community: this house isn't working, we're going to shut it down next year. They'll tell us it's a success until they close it down. That's just smart marketing. And even if something is making money, does that mean I have to consider it a success? In one way yes, but not in every way. And maybe it won't make money forever? Maybe for a team house to work, you have to keep developing players? Maybe the way the house is working now is shortsighted? it is a crux for their team, helps practice, keeps team unity alive, is a place for people to stay between events, etc... even if it's no korean team-house in terms of player skill development it's stupid to suggest it might not be worthwhile these things should be obvious, and as i said if they didn't feel they needed it they'd get rid of it (unless they own it instead of rent it...then ofc it doesn't fkin matter wat they do with it) still a dum thread It didn't help the practice enough for a significant improvement in results, this is like the first time somebody ever emphasised team unity in all the TL threads about sc2 (so i doubt team unity has much value) and people can stay elsewhere between events. Are you like in cahoots with EG's owner or something? No offense but you usually make smart posts. On April 21 2012 11:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the house hasn't magically transformed players into different, better players. but i think it has served its purpose so far. i think that it's wise for teams to have a house in the US because of how many tournaments there are here and because you can pick one of many suburbs across the country that have very good rental rates on big houses. i think that finding a well built house with good internet in a cheap suburb near the west coast for good latency to korea is a really good idea. most teams don't have the extra money floating around to try something like that though The team house was designed with the aim of raising their players' skill levels up to the level of koreans (they thought not having teamhouses was why most foreigners couldn't keep up with the koreans), so no, it has not served its purpose. really ignorant comment in pre interviews (which you can find on the EG YouTube page) they claimed it would be helpful, beneficial, etc bring them together, but never claimed it would make them as good as koreans yes it is serving its purpose http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249846 You will find your answer there.
highlight where they say anything about being as good as koreans
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I am actually puzzled by why so many people talk about practice alone. Yes practice is very important but if talent is not there it is not there. I bet even if I practiced 24/7 I would never beat Flash any decent progamer. Maybe most of EG guys dont have enough talent to make it? Why blame everything on "practice"? Or is it just impolite to suggest that some guys are not as talented as others in certain areas.
And there may be quite a few more legit reasons to have a teamhouse other than "start winning all tournaments within a year".
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8748 Posts
On April 21 2012 20:15 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 08:54 Rekrul wrote:On April 21 2012 08:50 -_- wrote:On April 21 2012 08:44 Rekrul wrote:
if they didn't feel having the house was worthwhile they would probably get rid of it
dum thread That's a very practical way to look at it. Maybe it's the right way. But EG won't tell the community: this house isn't working, we're going to shut it down next year. They'll tell us it's a success until they close it down. That's just smart marketing. And even if something is making money, does that mean I have to consider it a success? In one way yes, but not in every way. And maybe it won't make money forever? Maybe for a team house to work, you have to keep developing players? Maybe the way the house is working now is shortsighted? it is a crux for their team, helps practice, keeps team unity alive, is a place for people to stay between events, etc... even if it's no korean team-house in terms of player skill development it's stupid to suggest it might not be worthwhile these things should be obvious, and as i said if they didn't feel they needed it they'd get rid of it (unless they own it instead of rent it...then ofc it doesn't fkin matter wat they do with it) still a dum thread It didn't help the practice enough for a significant improvement in results, this is like the first time somebody ever emphasised team unity in all the TL threads about sc2 (so i doubt team unity has much value) and people can stay elsewhere between events. Are you like in cahoots with EG's owner or something? No offense but you usually make smart posts. Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 11:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the house hasn't magically transformed players into different, better players. but i think it has served its purpose so far. i think that it's wise for teams to have a house in the US because of how many tournaments there are here and because you can pick one of many suburbs across the country that have very good rental rates on big houses. i think that finding a well built house with good internet in a cheap suburb near the west coast for good latency to korea is a really good idea. most teams don't have the extra money floating around to try something like that though The team house was designed with the aim of raising their players' skill levels up to the level of koreans (they thought not having teamhouses was why most foreigners couldn't keep up with the koreans), so no, it has not served its purpose.
That's a matter of intention, not purpose. Purpose has to do with what actually happened. Something cannot have a purpose before it exists. It can have an intended purpose but of course the intended purpose is not the only purpose possible. That's just a goal or a hope. Or as you wrote, an aim.
Saying "it has served its purpose so far" just means that it has been beneficial for the team. It has a purpose. It isn't a waste. What is the purpose of the EG house? I think it's something that EG has discovered along the way. We can only speculate and so I've been intentionally vague about what exactly I think EG has gotten out of the house.
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Sweden47 Posts
When I think of gaming houses I compare them to sport youth academies. Great facilities may foster great talent and well known sport teams has a way of getting the most out of their players and many maybe reach a potential they never would have in another environment. It sure most often helps those lucky to be able to have great practice environment for whatever sport, but there are many factors on an individual level and on a structural level that determines success for different sportsmen. I feel that having not optimal conditions for practice can also give people motivation if they really love their sport to train even more than what others might do.
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EPT
