Following IPL4, Cats and Apollo were amazing together. TB & Apollo's Iron Squid casting has been magnificent as well. I went into GSL Code S with my normal expectations of Tastosis to deliver another amazing cast.
I was shocked and almost actually muted GSL, and Tastosis for the first time in my life. I'm not an actual picky person in regards to casters, I can stand Moletrap easily and Wolfs belittling of players without thinking about it too much.
Tastosis have dropped the ball pretty hard, their casts aren't actually casts anymore. It's just randomly talking about stuff, and occasionally shoutcasting a battle. Like in a recent Code S cast, Artosis does a little bit of post game analysis and says something along the lines of "Because we were busy talking about something else, I couldn't mention this". I believe it was a Squirtle game and they were talking about Pokemon. I can't remember quite what the important thing was, but it was a pretty large deciding factor of the game.
Anyone else noticed this? The instigator in this mindless gargle is generally Tasteless. I'm not going to boycott or anything, just want to know if other people feel the same without the hivemind approach of "Tastosis can't do anything bad!"
Does all these awesome new combinations, and old ones that I have been exposed to actually contend with my like of Tastosis that they're pointing out the heavy flaws in their casts?
Tasteless seems like one of the most charming people on earth, but for those people usually comes at the cost of some intellect and/or work ethic because face it - he really does not know much of what is going on in SC2. And you can't really blame Artosis for breaking down either given it's just a regression to the mean where the average speaking time is held by Tasteless. Hence, it's not surprising Tasteosis casts are pretty crap, especially when they are so numbed by the repetition of GSL.
Footnote: If Tasteless is a student and casting is a test, Tasteless studies one or two test answer keys, without understanding the material and then tries to shuffle that knowledge around best he can.
I am bashing on Tasteless, but it is dreadfully obvious for anyone who watches. . .
I have to be honest I completely agree. Tasteosis casting this season has been terrible. I did what you did as well, mute them for the first time ever.
To be honest, it really seems like they are getting bored of starcraft/video games. You have to realize that they are 27ish, and artosis just had a baby. So their relationship with the game is going to be much different than the average gamer. I dont really blame them for it, they are getting older, you cant be intense towards something like video games forever. I am actually kind of in the same boat as them, Im getting to my late 20's and I need to maybe not be so passionate about video games as well. So I get it.
Another thing to keep in mind, when they do a cast is usually about 4 hours long. Thats a long time to be casting continuously. I have to think it becomes difficult to keep the energy up when it becomes day after day of long casting.
Of late i have found the GSL casting to be rather stale. There is no excitement or entertainment to be had, yeah they are pretty good at analysis, but i watch replays. i can do that in my own time when i am trying to get better. i watch starcraft for entertainment not to be lectured at the whole time. I am thinking of buying a Season ticket so i can watch the korean casters because i always hear them in the back ground and wonder what i am missing.
Don't get me wrong, explaining a build order or talking about the mind games is interesting, but if there is a 200/200 battle or some kind of critical harass, it seems as though no one is interested
On April 15 2012 17:20 husniack wrote: Tasteless seems like one of the most charming people on earth, but for those people usually comes at the cost of some intellect and/or work ethic because face it - he really does not know much of what is going on in SC2. And you can't really blame Artosis for breaking down either given it's just a regression to the mean where the average speaking time is held by Tasteless. Hence, it's not surprising Tasteosis casts are pretty crap, especially when they are so numbed by the repetition of GSL.
Footnote: If Tasteless is a student and casting is a test, Tasteless studies one or two test answer keys, without understanding the material and then tries to shuffle that knowledge around best he can.
I am bashing on Tasteless, but it is dreadfully obvious for anyone who watches. . .
Tasteless wasn't always like this.
He used to be an amazing caster back in the day, the best in-fact and rivalled korean casting, he's one of the big influences for people getting into BW a few years ago. Watch his BW casts with Gom back in 2007/2008. He dropped great knowledge, was extremely exciting, and actually cracked good jokes that were relevant to the game. We are talking leagues better than even his first SC2 casts, and [subjectively] way better than Artosis's best casts of SC2. Peoples love for Tasteless stems from back then, we ignore how bad he is now, because of how good he was back then and we secretly hoped that he would get as good as he was before, but in fact the opposite is happening.
Unfortunately that makes it easy to gauge his impression of SC2.
On April 15 2012 17:20 husniack wrote: Tasteless seems like one of the most charming people on earth, but for those people usually comes at the cost of some intellect and/or work ethic because face it - he really does not know much of what is going on in SC2. And you can't really blame Artosis for breaking down either given it's just a regression to the mean where the average speaking time is held by Tasteless. Hence, it's not surprising Tasteosis casts are pretty crap, especially when they are so numbed by the repetition of GSL.
Footnote: If Tasteless is a student and casting is a test, Tasteless studies one or two test answer keys, without understanding the material and then tries to shuffle that knowledge around best he can.
I am bashing on Tasteless, but it is dreadfully obvious for anyone who watches. . .
Tasteless wasn't always like this.
He used to be an amazing caster back in the day, the best in-fact and rivalled korean casting, he's one of the big influences for people getting into BW a few years ago. Watch his BW casts with Gom back in 2007/2008. He dropped great knowledge, was extremely exciting, and actually cracked good jokes that were relevant to the game. We are talking leagues better than even his first SC2 casts, and [subjectively] way better than Artosis's best casts of SC2. Peoples love for Tasteless stems from back then, we ignore how bad he is now, because of how good he was back then.
Unfortunately that makes it easy to gauge his impression of SC2.
Last year Tasteless was good, it's this year his just fallen off. Tasteless wishes to go off on his own tangents mid-game when there's interesting builds developing that he can't see because he doesn't actually know what is happening. I actually truely believe Tasteless is losing his 'passion'.
Artosis I don't mind too much, I get the impression of him still caring about loving casting but with the analytical casting Wolf & Apollo are doing, Tasteless is just dragging Artosis further and further down on my preferred analytical caster.
I'm grateful for what Tastosis have done for the scene but I think it's about time to hang up the coats unless Tasteless actually steps up his game knowledge and casting. I personally feel that TB has even more game knowledge then Tasteless.
He may have, no, he did fall off this year but in no way is TB more knowledgeable than Tasteless. Never was and never will be. Its just that Tasteless kinda stopped trying, dunno ... Hope he finds it in him so we can have the great casting archon again.
I dont know, I think their casts are pretty good and the reason I think so is that they fill up boring moments in the game (beginning build orders etc) with their banter. Makes me laugh.
I've noticed this. They will talk about the most random shit, while the players are macro'ing. They will neglect the upgrades\tech paths\expansion timings. Everything. Then quickly cut their stories short when a battle might start. It's quite pathetic really. Sure a little entertaining is nice during the first 2 minutes of the game where nothing can possibly happen. But I think people want to know about the actual game, even if it is just pure macro for 12 minutes. I think they have gotten full of themselves.
(On a side note: Tasteless going on and on and on about oGsFin's marine scv pull on dualsight vs Oz, saying it was the worst strategy ever, etc. I think he was wrong. I'm not saying it was a well thought out build. But it could have worked if Oz went for a greedy 1 gate expand. Artosis even tried to point this out, but Tasteless just wouldn't listen. You could see the look on Artosis' face while he sat there and listened to Tasteless brutally bash Fin unnessicarily. Like he thinks he knows the game better than him? It was just so awkward and wrong on so many levels.)
Only negative thing about Tasteless is his being far to harsh on players recently, which is the worst thing, and the reason why I don't like the other casters who does that, Apollo, TB, Khaldor are very harsh and spend most of the game pointing out mistakes or what they think are mistakes.
I do agree that they've been a little too much off topic in the recent casts. However Artosis has bascially explained every nuance of the currents builds many times over and repeating it seems nonsensical. And how its usually been, is that if something new pops up Artosis carefully explains this new style. (But they have gotten a bit worse at this, because they talk a bit much about other things). But overall i think it works well. Tasteless seems to have given up trying to follow the metagame (i.e. knowing whats in style before any foreigner does), which isnt positive but we still have Artosis. I think it still works well.
Also i wholeheartedly applaud Tasteless for being hard on programers! The game is settling more on a firm ground, we should have expectations to the performance of progamers. When Fin did an silly all-in without even scouting for the build it was supposed to counter, and then proceeded to get ravaged, i think any caster that tries to cover that up rather than exposing it is the guilty one. Like Pandatank said "I think it could have worked if Oz did a 1gate expo", this is total bullshit. He has fucking scans, not scanning to check for it and then doing a stupid all in MUST be ridiculed.
Edit: I'd also like to note that the notion that casters should explain the game so well that the viewer doesnt even have to pay attention is totally worthless. If you like the sport (as in any sport) you pay attention and let the casters fill in the rest.
Also, its idiotic if anybody believes Artosis is losing his passion. He is one of the people that care the most about starcraft in the known universe.
On April 15 2012 22:31 Hiea wrote: Only negative thing about Tasteless is his being far to harsh on players recently, which is the worst thing, and the reason why I don't like the other casters who does that, Apollo, TB, Khaldor are very harsh and spend most of the game pointing out mistakes or what they think are mistakes.
I find alot of this criticism way over the top, his game knowledge is still equal or better than many foreign casters. He's watched so much sc2 and has a great rts background it's pretty silly to say he has no clue what's going on. Alot of people just hold him to higher standards due to how amazing he was with BW gom. I agree that he seems to be getting more negative and losing his passion, but that might just have more to do with the game itself. The sheer volume of casting these 2 have done must also be wearing on them.
On April 15 2012 22:31 Hiea wrote: Only negative thing about Tasteless is his being far to harsh on players recently, which is the worst thing, and the reason why I don't like the other casters who does that, Apollo, TB, Khaldor are very harsh and spend most of the game pointing out mistakes or what they think are mistakes.
Ignore mistakes = bad casting
In this case I think he's implying the manner in which the Western World does it. Why do I say this? If you watch Korean commentators and understand what they're saying you would realize they do things very differently when they approach the game and how they point out those mistakes.
On April 16 2012 00:20 Scarecrow wrote: I find alot of this criticism way over the top, his game knowledge is still equal or better than many foreign casters. He's watched so much sc2 and has a great rts background it's pretty silly to say he has no clue what's going on. Alot of people just hold him to higher standards due to how amazing he was with BW gom. I agree that he seems to be getting more negative and losing his passion, but that might just have more to do with the game itself. The sheer volume of casting these 2 have done must also be wearing on them.
It most certainly is.
The keyword here is eloquence.
OP I wouldn't say you are spoiled by good casting. I couldn't name one caster who is absolutely flawless. If you need to mute them, so be it. It's just personal preference and your taste buds change all the time as well too.
I've never been a huge fan of tastosis, and it's only getting worse as time goes on. I did enjoy Artosis when he commentated TSL 1 and 2, but now watching him and tasteless has just gotten SO stale. I guess it's to be expected after watching them for years, but they really aren't bringing anything new to the table and I now I find myself generally annoyed by the recent GSL casts. They talk about random things half the time and the rest of it is filled with tasteless saying "I dunno, MAN. I dunno if this is a good idea, MAN"
On April 15 2012 22:31 Hiea wrote: Only negative thing about Tasteless is his being far to harsh on players recently, which is the worst thing, and the reason why I don't like the other casters who does that, Apollo, TB, Khaldor are very harsh and spend most of the game pointing out mistakes or what they think are mistakes.
Ignore mistakes = bad casting
It certainly is a fine line to walk, though. What makes some casters subpar (mainly Bitter IMO) is that they point out mistakes that really aren't mistakes... THAT is the worst form of casting, I think. Day[9] gets it right with the open-ended style commentary and analysis, kind of leaving the fate of the game to the players' executions of their strats rather than the large-scale 'TERRIBLE' decisions that they're making.
On topic: I do feel as well that Tastosis have lost the luster they had in the first few seasons. This might be ever since I saw that subtitled VOD between Lucky and the other P on Daybreak, though. I'm beginning to learn Korean because of it so I can tune into a more saturated and lively cast at all times.
edit: they might be losing some of the charm and deified positions they had earlier on in the game's release, but they're still easily my favorite casting duo. Any tournament they go to is that much better because of them. The raw experience between the two and their backgrounds in BW, their chemistry, and Artosis' knowledge of everything make them still the cream of the crop.
I don't know how much sense it makes to compare Tasteless' Broodwar casting with his GSL performance. 1. They are different games, and after ~10 years of development Broodwar was much more refined gameplay and metagame wise when he was casting. This makes is easier to be passionate on a regular basis about the unfathomable skill the top players are showing. 2. Back then he was casting a couple of times a year. Fatigue and daily routine aside, it's obviously way easier to be an awesome, 24/7 passionate caster when you've been looking forward to cast a tournament for half a year. 3. Somewhat related: The amount of Sc2 casting is so vast when compared to the old Bw stuff, that it's way harder to always be original, have funny stories on the players etc.
I will grant you that they might have lost some of their "passion" as is normal with anything. After such a long time, even the most awesome dream job is still a job.
TLDR: Yes, you're spoilt.
Edit: Tobiwan is the sole reason I don't watch Dota2. The destroyer of eardrums, the bane of sane casting. As a fellow Tobihater so fittingly put it "he is always 3 excitement levels above what is actually happening". I long for the day that Dota2 becomes so big that there is room for casters to emerge that don't make my ears gush streams of blood that put the Niagara falls to shame.
On April 16 2012 00:49 Steveling wrote: That's exactly what I said in the last lr gsl thread. That I have being spoiled by Tobi(dota2) and I can't stand Tastosis anymore.
For christ just listen to him. They should put his picture besides the word "hype" in the dictionary.
Tobi is the reason I don't watch Dota2. It's like moletrap, but more annoying.
Apollo is really good analysis wise (not very entertaining though), but other than that the CP/Apollo and TB/Apollo casts were pretty mediocre as well. TB just isn't a good caster in my opinion and Cats tries too hard to let you know that he's excited, just like Day[9]'s fake enthusiasm when casting. The analysis from Tastosis has been lacking lately, but I think that stems more from the fact that they've explained how a reactor hellion opening progresses at least 200 times already; their casts are more for people that don't need the game explained to him and just want some entertainment on the side.
Although if you're talking about BW Tasteless --> current, then yes, he's definitely fallen off. Tasteless was far and away the best English caster of BW imo, and I'd kill to see him do that again in sc2. But he's still entertaining to listen to, and I understand why his casting isn't as good as it used to be.
Honestly, like we saw with BW, former players make the best casters in most cases. I expect a lot of players who fall off trying to make a living via casting in the future, which will improve the overall level of casting after a while. Having an Idra or QXC or someone similar paired with Tastosis would be incredible. Doubt it'd ever happen, but you can always dream.
At the end of the day "good casters/casting" is pretty subjective. I know people who LOVE TB's casting while I really don't enjoy it at all, some of my friends can't stand Apollo while I think he's a really good caster, I really dislike Tobi's casting but many people love it, etc.
It just goes to show how bad SCII really is. You have to be the best of the best(Korean casters) to make this interesting every day for every game.
User was warned for this post
Because I got warned for that... What I mean is that there isn't much more to talk about SCII when you cast because there really isn't all much they can say. In SCBW, there were so many things to say about what is going on, the players behind the screen, matchups, teams, variety in map(and its importance), team snipers, and infinite more. With SCII, there is nothing much you can say, rather than reiterate what is going on in the screen, because that is literally the only thing going on. In SCII, one engagement can win you the game and end it. In SCBW, you only won the battle, but not the war.
Oh my god you're saying this that there is no such thing as objectively good casting and that everyone has different preferences? Holy shit that's such a crazy idea.
Honestly people need to stop making assumptions and caster bashing. It's not productive and it makes you look really obnoxious. People like different things. Deal with it.
To be fair BW allowed Tasteless to be Tasteless in the first place. While GOM might not have been a OGN Starleague he still got the chance to cast some of the greatest players in BW. SC2 is not BW. Girls don't cheer anymore when he's on camera. The plays are not the same anymore. Especially at the start of their SC2 games they had to cast some really shit games for hours.
EPT
