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I blog about popular stuff, 'cause I'm a hack. You can see it through my exceedingly popular BW posts, riding upon the massive Blizzard-sponsored Brood War bandwagon!
Joking aside, it's time for the obligatory Jeremy Lin post. Why did I wait until "Linsanity" died down? 'cause I'm lazy. That, and I was actually more interested in the media reaction and coverage of him rather than the man himself, and seeing if and how coverage shifted after his injury and if the storyline created changed took some time. I will be generalizing the media reaction in this post. Of course, there have been quite a few different people talking about Jeremy Lin - in particular, some great writers who've discussed racism and how important Jeremy Lin is to (many) Asian-Americans, and how he's been breaking the many stereotypes linked with Asian-American men and culture, but here I'm mostly talking about the mainstream - the ESPNs, the NBA.coms. To put it bluntly, the (white) audience, the talking heads, those that were hyping up the "miracle". I should also note that this blog is written from primarily an American perspective, so please keep that in mind, that things here may be different than from your respective countries. I have a lot of problems with Jeremy Lin being described as a miracle. Don't get me wrong, he's freaking awesome. But the *way* in which he is (or was) being talked about is very problematic, and that's what I want to talk about today. First of all, from a purely basketball perspective, he's a good player. At times, an excellent player. But he commits a lot of turnovers, can't go left, doesn't have a reliable shot yet, and needs to work on his stamina. Plus he has that weird habit of pulling up and kicking the ball out to the perimeter when he's already in the paint. That's such a weird pass. I didn't expect him to hit 20 points and 10 assists every game, and he didn't have to. I'd be worried if he did, because then he's a larger than life character and that overshadows one important thing - that he's an Asian-American kid who can really ball. That in of itself is important enough, and if it's all about him being some sort of superhero, then what's gonna happen when he regresses to a "merely" above-average PG when he returns from injury? This isn't a "Rudy" story. Jeremy Lin's story really shouldn't be *that* surprising. (I suppose I should explain who "Rudy" is, for those who haven't seen the movie. Basically, his character is a small college football player who succeeds through sheer determination and at the end of the movie everyone cheers and it's inspirational and awesome and we all realize oh hey the little guy has a chance too) The fact that the media is referring to his rise as amazing/miraculous/totally unexpected is a problem. Jeremy Lin is no Rudy. He was amazing everywhere he played basketball - he was ripping up the court in high school and still got overlooked by every college but Harvard. In college, he continued to play excellently. Statistically, he would have been one of the better PGs in the draft. Still, he was overlooked. If it wasn't for a lucky break with the Knicks, he would have been gone, through no fault of his own. It's totally different from the Rudy story. Rudy had none of the tools needed for college football. He didn't have the size, he didn't have the talent. He lived the dream despite his limitations. Lin is 6'3" and 200 pounds. He's always been capable of playing in the NBA. His limitation is different from Rudy's. He was never too small, he was never lacking in talent, and it's not like he never did show his stuff. He did, and people ignored him. Why? For us Asian-Americans, it's pretty freaking obvious, and that makes the mainstream media somewhat amusing, yet sad to watch throughout this, because we know exactly what they are avoiding. Racism. He's an Asian-American male. It's pretty simple. There isn't any miracle here - a good basketball player showed that he could actually be a good basketball player. But it's being regarded as a miracle because of the way he looks. He's being treated like some undersized kid in a Disney movie that overcomes all odds. Yes, he overcame odds, but those were the odds of racism, and not limitations of his own making. It's funny seeing so many "experts" going, "How did the scouts miss him? Is there a flaw in the meritocracy that is the NBA? Maybe it's just a fluke? Who knew?" when it really is just that simple. Racism. People see what they want to see. We have our own prejudices that affect our decisionmaking, and racism is one of them. People didn't think Jeremy Lin could actually play, because he didn't have the look. They saw someone who wasn't big enough, strong enough, poised enough. But that didn't have anything to do with whether or not he actually WAS capable, but rather people's perceptions. And our perceptions have to change. Someone once said, "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." And that's what's very troubling about modern racism - racists have been very successful at convincing the world that racism no longer exists. When people think of racism nowadays, they think of the KKK, Neo Nazis, Islamic Fundamentalists, Japanese Nationalists. But when we identify such extreme behavior as the only definition of racism, everything else flies under the radar. In the old racism, it was a world in which white people were just "better". In modern racism, white people are instead "just right". The Goldilocks, if you will. You've got your (Asian) Night Elves, that are smart but weak. You've got your (Black) Orcs, that are strong and stupid. Then you've got the (White) humans. Not too smart, but smart enough to do whatever they have to. Not too strong, but strong enough to do whatever they have to. This, combined with their leadership and determination, make them the "well-balanced" character. What does this mean, sociologically? It means white people can do anything, but other races are stuck in these artificial categories. Asian-Americans are great workers, engineers, and doctors. But they can't be great athletes, or managers, or CEOs. They just don't have the intangibles. African-Americans are great entertainers, athletes, and soldier grunts. But they can't be great philosophers or commanders. Or at least, don't expect it. There may be exceptions here and there, but only because these special individuals were just so good that they just couldn't be ignored. But otherwise, carry on business as usual. It's racism, with a "new and improved" label slapped on it, but it's the same BS. It's a great sell to white society that is terrified of being called "racist", but still wants to consider itself "normal", or "default". Jeremy Lin is viewed as "Lincredible" by the mainstream media for all the wrong reasons. He is indeed, awesome, and he means a lot to Asian Americans. In our culture, Asian men are almost never portrayed as heroes. They're nerds, scientists, background characters, comic relief. If they ever do kick ass, they're martial artists, but they're never going to get the girl. (unless there are ONLY Asians in the movie. If there's a single white hero in the movie, expect him to end up with the girl) This is the world we Asian-American guys grew up in. Jeremy Lin's no Yao Ming. Yao was so freaking big that even racist scouts couldn't ignore that. But Lin is relatively "normal". He's given us sport-loving Asian-American males a chance to believe that someone that looks like us can make it, that we don't have to be a freak of nature (no offense intended to Yao, of course). Is it that sports trumps other things, that being recognized as a great athlete is objectively better than being recognized as a great engineer? Of course not. But the option itself is a privilege, to see someone that looks like you doing well, and that's a privilege that's probably hard for most white people to understand. Asian-Americans boys could only dream, until Jeremy Lin came along. He's broken stereotypes, and maybe that will expand the definition of "the look" needed to be a baller, that hey, maybe our definition of what a player needs to make it should be changed. Black kids used to laugh when they were told "anyone can be President". Not anymore. And if people were wrong about Asian-Americans being unable to ball, what else are they wrong about? Perhaps we could actually be great politicians? Movie stars? News anchors? Roles that have been traditionally thought of as incredibly unlikely. Essentially, the *possibility* exists, and that itself is liberating. That's why I love Lin's story, and I'll always be a fan even if he never puts up those numbers again. It's sad when we need a star to prove that we can actually measure up to white people, but in America, that's what it takes. You have to be a *lot* better than the "default" to start to be taken seriously. I remember a Chris Rock sketch in which he observed that baseball didn't start to become equal until you started seeing BAD black baseball players in the major leagues. There's a lot of truth in that. For society to recognize the exceptional minorities isn't all too surprising. They're just too good to ignore, like Yao's height. But for society to start giving the average guy a chance... that's harder. Some have said the Jeremy Lin bubble has burst. Well, that all depends on your definition of bubble. If you expected him to lay down 30 points every night and would carry the Knicks into the playoffs... then yes, I would expect you to be disappointed. If all people remember from the past few months is some guy who came out of nowhere and then faded, then it'll have been for naught. But if your definition of awesome is that a kid has proved that Asian-Americans can play basketball just as well as whites and blacks and that they've been consistently overlooked because of racism... and that as a society, we ought to learn something from our past prejudice... then the Jeremy Lin story will truly be "Lincredible".
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So, to my loyal readers out there... is this description of "racism" fair or not? Is it a valid point, or am I too far off? Is it an issue that we should just shrug off, or try to remedy? I love hearing your thoughts~
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EDIT 1: Thanks for all the great responses! I'm highlighting this one in particular by [Agony]x90 not simply because he agrees with what I'm saying per se, but because it really helps provide a perspective that makes it easier to understand Asian-American (male) culture from the context of sports and majority perception.
+ Show Spoiler +Well, I think there are some truths to this. I'm an asian Ivy leaguer recruited for a sport that is not normally considered for "asians", which is shot put. For some insight, on my team, there are a total of 2 full asians on my team, one distance runner and me. We have a number of half asians, but full asians seem to be in short supply. Moving on, in all of the schools that I compete against, I may be (as far as I can remember), the only full asian that is competing in my event. I know for certain that there are no other asians in the ivy league that throws shot, and I think I recall seeing one other full asian who threw a good 15-20 feet below me (or, he throws about 70 percent as far as I do). For more evidence, the Korean shot put record sits at about 63 feet, which is about 3 feet below the Olympic B standard and 12 feet away from the World record. There are a number of college throwers in the past 4 years that can throw upwards to 70 feet. Another example, Koji Murofushi. This man threw hammer in the age of insane hammer throwers and heavy steroid use. The record was set around his time at 86 meters. His best, a little over 70 (~70.80) meters. 30 years later, his son wins the olympic gold in Athens with a throw of 80 meters. A difference on 10 meters from his father. His secret? Well, I'm sure there's a lot of factors, but it doesn't hurt to mention that Koji is half white. Full asians are eaten alive in throwing events (or so it seems).
What does this mean? Maybe I'm just lazy and jealous and can't throw far, but I do believe that asians are less physically capable to throw. But at the same time, its important to note that there are virtually no asians in a lot of American sports, such as football, baseball, basketball (and for me) track. People will always pick out individuals in the past, but that doesn't hide the fact that there have been a total of two Asian Americans in the NBA, one who played in 1947 and another who we are discussing today. This is probably for the same reason that asians just can't keep up physically, but, I also think there is a massive hindrance due to racism.
Mindset plays a huge role and is very much so existent. Back to Jeremy Lin. I was speaking to my teammate, who comes from a well off white family that has roots that possibly go back to the Mayflower. I'm an asian american with immigrant parents. My reason I say I support JLin? He's an asian ivy leaguer that made it in a sport he was "designed" for! Maybe I can be that too! His reason? "Has nothing to do with him being Asian. It's because he went to Harvard. No one makes it to the NBA from Harvard." I do give him credit, as the last time a Harvard kid did make it into the NBA was in the 50s, but I still don't buy it entirely. Why did JLin pick Harvard in the first place? It was because he was overlooked by everyone else that he wanted to play for. Harvard figured they could pick up a player and went for it. I likewise agree that he was good enough to make, even if he fell below the standard every chance he got in the NBA prior to his Knicks game debut.
As an asian american, I may just being experiencing the same "ethno"-egoism as the OP, but I still believe these facts hold true. To support another one of the OPs claims, black students are given the same negative stereotype. I don't need to explain this to any of you, as every single one of you know exactly what I mean. This is abundantly clear in the Ivy League as well, as they are severely lacking in representation and I don't think I would be wrong to say that a disproportionate amount of them are also athletes (the opposite case for asians). The difference is though, there's no such thing as affirmative action for sports.
I will disagree with the OP with one point though, which is that caucasians are not the "solve alls" or "balanced humans". They suffer from the same limitations. Table tennis throughout the world is dominated by the chinese, but is a sport that originated in the west. Swimming is considered an asian man's sport, as their long torsos make them ideal for swimming. To go a bit further, what if teams finally came to the conclusion that Koreans are good at SC not because they practice a lot more than everyone else, but because they have an ethnic, genetic, socioethnic, predisposed irregularity, w/e you wanna call it advantage over everyone else. Not only that, but having come to that decision, that all the American SC2 teams suddenly drop all their non Korean players in favor for Korean only teams. Suddenly, people will say, "why play SC2 if you're not Korean? You'll never make it." Suddenly, no matter what the actual truth is, there is a huge myth that amplifies the false sense that there is nothing you can do unless you are Korean or asian or w/e.
I don't know your guys ethnicities, but perhaps these little stories will act as proof that this kind of racism does indeed exist. I don't find it fair that you guys hack away at the OP and should consider the other possibilities. The nice thing about the extreme racists today (KKK, neonazis, black panthers), is that they don't try to hide what they think. At the very least they are honest about what they think or what they perceive to be the truth, whether or not it is correct. Most people otherwise will try to hide it and their thoughts just so that they don't appear to be racist.
EDIT: while typing this, someone else posted what I discussed with the Ivy league argument. Once again, I still think this is bull, since Jeremy Lin ended up at Harvard because the more prestigious basketball schools didn't as much as give him a second look. Also, a smaller percentage of the asian american population have made it into the NBA than the number of Harvard students into the NBA. Likewise, 1947 is longer than the 1950's. It's just more politically correct to say "Harvard" than "Asian".
EDIT 2: Okay, the guy beneath me just said the same thing the guy two above me said. I don't understand why it makes sense to down play the fact that he is asian, but bring up that he is an Ivy leaguer. Why can't it be both? I make this point, because I believe it is easier to believe one thing than another, not on empirical truth, but on social pressures. In my opinion, the same thing that is going on here is going on in the Trayson shooting discussion. I personally don't know if it was indeed a hate crime, but theres no doubt in my mind that there were elements of prejudice and racism. There are plenty of social injustices towards the black population. I think the reason people try to deny that it was at all racially charged, or that Zimmerman was in no way racist, is because of the repercussions that come with it. All things go both ways. Racial crimes are punished so harshly socially that to be branded a racist tarnishes your reputation forever. Better to be a murderer than a racist murderer. Once again, this has to do with social pressure.
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Umm, Lin was not always great and a starter worthy basketball player. He did have chances, he was on the Warriors and got some minutes before being traded and also got minutes on the Knicks before moving down to D-league for a short period of time. It's a "miracle" because he literally did come out of nowhere after doing literally nothing in the NBA after an entire year and being placed into D-league. And you give people too little credit. Scouts for basketball/football typically always know what they're doing. You think they overlooked him because of racism? He's bigger than he should be BECAUSE he's Asian, not the other way around here.
It's not about size, or overcoming size. There's a reason why the NBA is 90% black and it has a lot more to do than blacks being taller on average. Hell, I'm a bit upset you said he didn't overcome anything like Rudy. You still need an absurd amount of talent and skill to play basketball at that level if you're 6'3.
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Maybe the scouts who missed him were prejudiced. I don't know enough about the draft and college level to comment. In Golden State he just didnt get the opportunity to show what he could do with Curry & Montae taking alot of the minutes. The Rockets who waived him also had great depth at PG with lowry and dragic (both better players). He really had little chance to show what he could do in the league till NY and it was more talent than race based imo.
Besides being an Asian-American, Linsanity was also about the story of being an unsigned player going from the couch to starting for a big market team in a matter of days. It's one of those classic American myths come to life that generated a ton of hype. His numbers over the first 5 or so games were stunning. I think he ranked in the top 5 in pts over first 5 starts alongside Jordan, Shaq etc. Again not about race, just an amazing player coming out of the woodwork and seizing the opportunity given by a slumping NY and PG injuries.
I think Linsanity was as much about race as it was about his numbers, dramatic shots, a Knicks resurgence and the huge NY market. That said, there's still plenty of racism in the West (e.g. espn's "Chink in the Armour" headline that got pulled).
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Speaking from a purely basketball point of view, while Jeremy's ethnicity certainly deprived him of many opportunities I don't think it's the only reason he went overlooked. Simply put, he doesn't fit the mold of the traditional NBA point guard. Point guards from Ivy league schools with a weird looking jumpshot and not much speed or jumping ability typically don't get drafted.
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It's not racism, they didn't overlook him because of his race, they overlooked him because they felt African-Americans can play better.
It's not necessarily ethnocentrism, but it is marking down a stereotype that still remains pertinent in this sport. In addition, he doesn't have much of a track record despite being well-built and statistically above-average.
By the way, you're last paragraphs is ranting on stereotypes, not racism. I think you're being touchy by pure marketing and mainstream's media way of hooking people in.
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Let me also just say that his college career WAS NOT GREAT BY ANY MEANS. His stats were DECENT, but realize he's playing in a MUCH worse league than other NBA prospects. Most Ivy League players don't even make it to the NBA, and to think he would be pulling those kinds of numbers that he does now through his college stats? That's textbook hindsight bias right there.
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This is the most ridiculous and far fetched grasp at crying racism that I have seen in a long time.
The guy was on the team, he was allowed to play, he became a huge star. There were a ton of valid reasons that he was benched for as long as he was, and none had to do with his race.
It doesn't matter, not really. End of the day you will connect the dots back to racism because that is what you want to see. If you can somehow turn this story into one about racism, then I have no doubt you can connect everything back to racism.
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10387 Posts
On April 10 2012 15:34 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not racism, they didn't overlook him because of his race, they overlooked him because they felt African-Americans can play better. lol ... are you serious?
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He was a mix of being overrated and overperforming, and it showed towards the end before his injury. I watched all games the played with the warriors and he STILL is overrated.
I'd would rank him slightly below average in the NBA starting PG area.
Definitely was not racism.
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Angry asian kid claiming that the NBA is pretty much the world's most racist organization and hates asians.
What did I just read lol?
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On April 10 2012 15:30 red4ce wrote: Speaking from a purely basketball point of view, while Jeremy's ethnicity certainly deprived him of many opportunities I don't think it's the only reason he went overlooked. Simply put, he doesn't fit the mold of the traditional NBA point guard. Point guards from Ivy league schools with a weird looking jumpshot and not much speed or jumping ability typically don't get drafted. The thing is that he matches up quite favorably in terms of basic stats of speed/jump with some of the top picks for his year. His first step (initial acceleration) outpaces even the first pick John Wall.
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Thanks for commenting guys, I appreciate it.
In hindsight, I suppose my point wasn't really clear. It was more that the *media coverage* of him seemed a bit off. (of course, I'd be lying if I had expected him to do as well as he actually did) People were surprised not because he played amazingly well - while a good player, he isn't *that* good. They were surprised because he went WAY beyond their expectations, what with the numbers he put up in the first five starts and all that. That's all cool and definitely not something you can minimize. I'm focusing more upon expectations, and why they are the way they are.
It would be unreasonable to say "I totally saw this coming" regarding how well he actually played. That's fine. I'm saying though, that the fact that he went totally undrafted, meaning most people thought he was completely unworthy of playing in the NBA, came primarily, though not entirely, due to his race.
@Torte de Lini: "because they felt African-Americans can play better". Isn't that the definition of overlooking him because of his race? Stereotypes are linked with racism. Stereotypes pigeonhole people into pre-defined roles, and that's part of what I'm arguing - that this is actually a form of racism in that we're judging someone largely upon their ethnicity, and not their actual ability (unless they're just too good to ignore).
@JudicatorHammurabi: I don't think that's a fair interpretation of what I wrote. It's not really a bash against the NBA, but rather our society and how that shapes expectations for people based upon stereotypes, rather than actual ability. Does it happen everywhere? Sure, but most obviously in realms such as sports, which is why I chose this example.
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On April 10 2012 16:05 Funnytoss wrote: Thanks for commenting guys, I appreciate it.
In hindsight, I suppose my point wasn't really clear. It was more that the *media coverage* of him seemed a bit off. (of course, I'd be lying if I had expected him to do as well as he actually did) People were surprised not because he played amazingly well - while a good player, he isn't *that* good. They were surprised because he went WAY beyond their expectations, what with the numbers he put up in the first five starts and all that. That's all cool and definitely not something you can minimize. I'm focusing more upon expectations, and why they are the way they are.
It would be unreasonable to say "I totally saw this coming" regarding how well he actually played. That's fine. I'm saying though, that the fact that he went totally undrafted, meaning most people thought he was completely unworthy of playing in the NBA, came primarily, though not entirely, due to his race.
@Torte de Lini: "because they felt African-Americans can play better". Isn't that the definition of overlooking him because of his race? Stereotypes are linked with racism. Stereotypes pigeonhole people into pre-defined roles, and that's part of what I'm arguing - that this is actually a form of racism in that we're judging someone largely upon their ethnicity, and not their actual ability (unless they're just too good to ignore).
It's ethnic majority + track record.
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On April 10 2012 16:06 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:05 Funnytoss wrote: Thanks for commenting guys, I appreciate it.
In hindsight, I suppose my point wasn't really clear. It was more that the *media coverage* of him seemed a bit off. (of course, I'd be lying if I had expected him to do as well as he actually did) People were surprised not because he played amazingly well - while a good player, he isn't *that* good. They were surprised because he went WAY beyond their expectations, what with the numbers he put up in the first five starts and all that. That's all cool and definitely not something you can minimize. I'm focusing more upon expectations, and why they are the way they are.
It would be unreasonable to say "I totally saw this coming" regarding how well he actually played. That's fine. I'm saying though, that the fact that he went totally undrafted, meaning most people thought he was completely unworthy of playing in the NBA, came primarily, though not entirely, due to his race.
@Torte de Lini: "because they felt African-Americans can play better". Isn't that the definition of overlooking him because of his race? Stereotypes are linked with racism. Stereotypes pigeonhole people into pre-defined roles, and that's part of what I'm arguing - that this is actually a form of racism in that we're judging someone largely upon their ethnicity, and not their actual ability (unless they're just too good to ignore). It's ethnic majority + track record.
And I'm arguing that *this* is the significance of Jeremy Lin to a lot of Asian-Americans, that he may challenge people's perceptions of the ethnicity, and that opens up possibilities for people. Not that you're necessarily going to suddenly see more Asians in the NBA, because statistically, I'm totally aware that whites and blacks tend to be more physically suited for the game. But that we should be making decisions based on stereotypes... less often than we do.
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On April 10 2012 16:10 Funnytoss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:06 Torte de Lini wrote:On April 10 2012 16:05 Funnytoss wrote: Thanks for commenting guys, I appreciate it.
In hindsight, I suppose my point wasn't really clear. It was more that the *media coverage* of him seemed a bit off. (of course, I'd be lying if I had expected him to do as well as he actually did) People were surprised not because he played amazingly well - while a good player, he isn't *that* good. They were surprised because he went WAY beyond their expectations, what with the numbers he put up in the first five starts and all that. That's all cool and definitely not something you can minimize. I'm focusing more upon expectations, and why they are the way they are.
It would be unreasonable to say "I totally saw this coming" regarding how well he actually played. That's fine. I'm saying though, that the fact that he went totally undrafted, meaning most people thought he was completely unworthy of playing in the NBA, came primarily, though not entirely, due to his race.
@Torte de Lini: "because they felt African-Americans can play better". Isn't that the definition of overlooking him because of his race? Stereotypes are linked with racism. Stereotypes pigeonhole people into pre-defined roles, and that's part of what I'm arguing - that this is actually a form of racism in that we're judging someone largely upon their ethnicity, and not their actual ability (unless they're just too good to ignore). It's ethnic majority + track record. And I'm arguing that *this* is the significance of Jeremy Lin to a lot of Asian-Americans, that he may challenge people's perceptions of the ethnicity, and that opens up possibilities for people. Not that you're necessarily going to suddenly see more Asians in the NBA, because statistically, I'm totally aware that whites and blacks tend to be more physically suited for the game. But that we should be making decisions based on stereotypes... less often than we do.
You won't see me fighting you here.
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"The NBA had not drafted an Ivy League player since Jerome Allen of Penn in the second round in 1995. The last Ivy League player to play in the NBA was Yale's Chris Dudley in 2003, while the last Harvard player was Ed Smith in 1954."
I'd say it has more to do with the league he played in over his race. The fact that he wasn't even Ivy league player of the year and got in says a lot.
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actually, in Fast Five the asian guy gets the really hot girl.
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On April 10 2012 16:21 Gak2 wrote: actually, in Fast Five the asian guy gets the really hot girl. Tru dat. Omg she was so attractive.
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Well, I think there are some truths to this. I'm an asian Ivy leaguer recruited for a sport that is not normally considered for "asians", which is shot put. For some insight, on my team, there are a total of 2 full asians on my team, one distance runner and me. We have a number of half asians, but full asians seem to be in short supply. Moving on, in all of the schools that I compete against, I may be (as far as I can remember), the only full asian that is competing in my event. I know for certain that there are no other asians in the ivy league that throws shot, and I think I recall seeing one other full asian who threw a good 15-20 feet below me (or, he throws about 70 percent as far as I do). For more evidence, the Korean shot put record sits at about 63 feet, which is about 3 feet below the Olympic B standard and 12 feet away from the World record. There are a number of college throwers in the past 4 years that can throw upwards to 70 feet. Another example, Koji Murofushi. This man threw hammer in the age of insane hammer throwers and heavy steroid use. The record was set around his time at 86 meters. His best, a little over 70 (~70.80) meters. 30 years later, his son wins the olympic gold in Athens with a throw of 80 meters. A difference on 10 meters from his father. His secret? Well, I'm sure there's a lot of factors, but it doesn't hurt to mention that Koji is half white. Full asians are eaten alive in throwing events (or so it seems).
What does this mean? Maybe I'm just lazy and jealous and can't throw far, but I do believe that asians are less physically capable to throw. But at the same time, its important to note that there are virtually no asians in a lot of American sports, such as football, baseball, basketball (and for me) track. People will always pick out individuals in the past, but that doesn't hide the fact that there have been a total of two Asian Americans in the NBA, one who played in 1947 and another who we are discussing today. This is probably for the same reason that asians just can't keep up physically, but, I also think there is a massive hindrance due to racism.
Mindset plays a huge role and is very much so existent. Back to Jeremy Lin. I was speaking to my teammate, who comes from a well off white family that has roots that possibly go back to the Mayflower. I'm an asian american with immigrant parents. My reason I say I support JLin? He's an asian ivy leaguer that made it in a sport he was "designed" for! Maybe I can be that too! His reason? "Has nothing to do with him being Asian. It's because he went to Harvard. No one makes it to the NBA from Harvard." I do give him credit, as the last time a Harvard kid did make it into the NBA was in the 50s, but I still don't buy it entirely. Why did JLin pick Harvard in the first place? It was because he was overlooked by everyone else that he wanted to play for. Harvard figured they could pick up a player and went for it. I likewise agree that he was good enough to make, even if he fell below the standard every chance he got in the NBA prior to his Knicks game debut.
As an asian american, I may just being experiencing the same "ethno"-egoism as the OP, but I still believe these facts hold true. To support another one of the OPs claims, black students are given the same negative stereotype. I don't need to explain this to any of you, as every single one of you know exactly what I mean. This is abundantly clear in the Ivy League as well, as they are severely lacking in representation and I don't think I would be wrong to say that a disproportionate amount of them are also athletes (the opposite case for asians). The difference is though, there's no such thing as affirmative action for sports.
I will disagree with the OP with one point though, which is that caucasians are not the "solve alls" or "balanced humans". They suffer from the same limitations. Table tennis throughout the world is dominated by the chinese, but is a sport that originated in the west. Swimming is considered an asian man's sport, as their long torsos make them ideal for swimming. To go a bit further, what if teams finally came to the conclusion that Koreans are good at SC not because they practice a lot more than everyone else, but because they have an ethnic, genetic, socioethnic, predisposed irregularity, w/e you wanna call it advantage over everyone else. Not only that, but having come to that decision, that all the American SC2 teams suddenly drop all their non Korean players in favor for Korean only teams. Suddenly, people will say, "why play SC2 if you're not Korean? You'll never make it." Suddenly, no matter what the actual truth is, there is a huge myth that amplifies the false sense that there is nothing you can do unless you are Korean or asian or w/e.
I don't know your guys ethnicities, but perhaps these little stories will act as proof that this kind of racism does indeed exist. I don't find it fair that you guys hack away at the OP and should consider the other possibilities. The nice thing about the extreme racists today (KKK, neonazis, black panthers), is that they don't try to hide what they think. At the very least they are honest about what they think or what they perceive to be the truth, whether or not it is correct. Most people otherwise will try to hide it and their thoughts just so that they don't appear to be racist.
EDIT: while typing this, someone else posted what I discussed with the Ivy league argument. Once again, I still think this is bull, since Jeremy Lin ended up at Harvard because the more prestigious basketball schools didn't as much as give him a second look. Also, a smaller percentage of the asian american population have made it into the NBA than the number of Harvard students into the NBA. Likewise, 1947 is longer than the 1950's. It's just more politically correct to say "Harvard" than "Asian".
EDIT 2: Okay, the guy beneath me just said the same thing the guy two above me said. I don't understand why it makes sense to down play the fact that he is asian, but bring up that he is an Ivy leaguer. Why can't it be both? I make this point, because I believe it is easier to believe one thing than another, not on empirical truth, but on social pressures. In my opinion, the same thing that is going on here is going on in the Trayson shooting discussion. I personally don't know if it was indeed a hate crime, but theres no doubt in my mind that there were elements of prejudice and racism. There are plenty of social injustices towards the black population. I think the reason people try to deny that it was at all racially charged, or that Zimmerman was in no way racist, is because of the repercussions that come with it. All things go both ways. Racial crimes are punished so harshly socially that to be branded a racist tarnishes your reputation forever. Better to be a murderer than a racist murderer. Once again, this has to do with social pressure.
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On April 10 2012 16:10 Funnytoss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:06 Torte de Lini wrote:On April 10 2012 16:05 Funnytoss wrote: Thanks for commenting guys, I appreciate it.
In hindsight, I suppose my point wasn't really clear. It was more that the *media coverage* of him seemed a bit off. (of course, I'd be lying if I had expected him to do as well as he actually did) People were surprised not because he played amazingly well - while a good player, he isn't *that* good. They were surprised because he went WAY beyond their expectations, what with the numbers he put up in the first five starts and all that. That's all cool and definitely not something you can minimize. I'm focusing more upon expectations, and why they are the way they are.
It would be unreasonable to say "I totally saw this coming" regarding how well he actually played. That's fine. I'm saying though, that the fact that he went totally undrafted, meaning most people thought he was completely unworthy of playing in the NBA, came primarily, though not entirely, due to his race.
@Torte de Lini: "because they felt African-Americans can play better". Isn't that the definition of overlooking him because of his race? Stereotypes are linked with racism. Stereotypes pigeonhole people into pre-defined roles, and that's part of what I'm arguing - that this is actually a form of racism in that we're judging someone largely upon their ethnicity, and not their actual ability (unless they're just too good to ignore). It's ethnic majority + track record. And I'm arguing that *this* is the significance of Jeremy Lin to a lot of Asian-Americans, that he may challenge people's perceptions of the ethnicity, and that opens up possibilities for people. Not that you're necessarily going to suddenly see more Asians in the NBA, because statistically, I'm totally aware that whites and blacks tend to be more physically suited for the game. But that we should be making decisions based on stereotypes... less often than we do. I think Jeremy Lin may give some asian kids some motivation and inspiration that they can be the next Jeremy Lin. I do not agree that all 30 NBA teams and 300+ D1 programs have racist scouts and coach's to the point that they would ignore him. The odds of making the NBA out of the Ivy league are so small, and it is very tough to judge a player coming out as being able to make it to the next level. The jump in the overal athleticism of the players from the Ivy to the NBA is incredible. In his senior year (2009–10), Lin averaged 16.4 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 2.4 steals and 1.1 blocks , those are good stats. Those are not can't miss next level talent stats.
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On April 10 2012 15:28 Itsmedudeman wrote: Umm, Lin was not always great and a starter worthy basketball player. He did have chances, he was on the Warriors and got some minutes before being traded and also got minutes on the Knicks before moving down to D-league for a short period of time. It's a "miracle" because he literally did come out of nowhere after doing literally nothing in the NBA after an entire year and being placed into D-league. And you give people too little credit. Scouts for basketball/football typically always know what they're doing. You think they overlooked him because of racism? He's bigger than he should be BECAUSE he's Asian, not the other way around here.
It's not about size, or overcoming size. There's a reason why the NBA is 90% black and it has a lot more to do than blacks being taller on average. Hell, I'm a bit upset you said he didn't overcome anything like Rudy. You still need an absurd amount of talent and skill to play basketball at that level if you're 6'3.
This is something I want to really, really point out. People's jobs depend on things like this. It's similar to betting odds in vegas for major sporting events..
Do you, a casual fan or even hardcore fan of the sport, think you're smarter than the lines makers? You think they haven't analyzed every piece of data they could and heard any rumors or inside sources on various subjects too? People take their jobs seriously and would not overlook him for any reason other than his own shortcomings as a player. Also, it should be noted, ESPN is generally filled with hacks. You can go there for scores or some interviews maybe, but if you expect true in-depth analysis anywhere on ESPN, you'll be mistaken. There might be a couple of diamonds in the rough, but they're few and far between.
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I think as you said racists are good at convincing the world it doesn't exist, do you believe the inverse could be true as well? People are good at convincing themselves racism does exist in a situation it may not?
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Do you, a casual fan or even hardcore fan of the sport, think you're smarter than the lines makers? You think they haven't analyzed every piece of data they could and heard any rumors or inside sources on various subjects too? People take their jobs seriously and would not overlook him for any reason other than his own shortcomings as a player. Also, it should be noted, ESPN is generally filled with hacks. You can go there for scores or some interviews maybe, but if you expect true in-depth analysis anywhere on ESPN, you'll be mistaken. There might be a couple of diamonds in the rough, but they're few and far between.
No, professional scouts for the most part know what they're doing. But in this particular instance, I'd argue that they suffered from a cultural bias that created a glaring blind spot.
I think as you said racists are good at convincing the world it doesn't exist, do you believe the inverse could be true as well? People are good at convincing themselves racism does exist in a situation it may not?
Yes, it's quite possible. Part of this may arise from people's understanding and definition of racism. I'm sure there are some people who are "hypersensitive" to racism perhaps to compensate for some of their own deficiencies, or possess this worldview because of the way they were raised. One might argue that I'm reading too much into media portrayal of Asians and linking that with racism, but I think I have a fairly strong case here, especially if you realize that this is not an isolated situation, and it's even more obvious in places like Hollywood.
Also, thanks to [Agony]x90 in particular for a great post helping to illustrate my point a bit. I wrote this mostly to provide a perspective that most people here may be unaccustomed to taking, and hopefully people will understand why Lin really energized the Asian-American community the way he did.
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Interesting article, I think a lot of it is on point although I really don't know much about what it's like in America. If you haven't already, I recommend reading Alex Garfield's thoughts on modern racism in response to the orb controversy.
+ Show Spoiler +As always, UD gets the shaft even when people make poor WC3 analogies. It's not like they're a playable race or anything =/
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I would like to say that writing was very well written and understandable, not even considering whether or not I agree, well done. Now as far as basketball I don't know much about it, but I would be highly skeptical of anyone who thought asians weren't, to some degree, weren't mildly, maybe even unconsciously, discriminated against. I also agree that the media will definitly avoid truly bringing up the topic of racism seriously and realistically.
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I very seriously doubt a pro scout in any lucrative sport will overlook real talent over something like race. It just doesn't make any sense from a purely business / competition perspective. These guys are professionals, they are paid to find talent and get it where it is needed. I'm afraid your entire post stands on rather shaky legs. Plus, the second he was officially recognized as a talented player, he basically exploded all over the place to a degree radically above his skill level.
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On April 10 2012 17:54 Kickboxer wrote: I very seriously doubt a pro scout in any lucrative sport will overlook real talent over something like race. It just doesn't make any sense from a purely business / competition perspective. These guys are professionals, they are paid to find talent and get it where it is needed. I'm afraid your entire post stands on rather shaky legs. Plus, the second he was officially recognized as a talented player, he basically exploded all over the place to a degree radically above his skill level. He DID get scouted so people talking about racist scouts is unwarranted. You have to remember that there was a shortened season and policy changes coinciding with the lockout that really screwed players like him in general. He didn't get let go for no reason.... he got let go so his team could make a critical trade while staying under the newly imposed cap.
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On April 10 2012 16:21 Itsmedudeman wrote: "The NBA had not drafted an Ivy League player since Jerome Allen of Penn in the second round in 1995. The last Ivy League player to play in the NBA was Yale's Chris Dudley in 2003, while the last Harvard player was Ed Smith in 1954."
I'd say it has more to do with the league he played in over his race. The fact that he wasn't even Ivy league player of the year and got in says a lot. Great post. It's clearly more league/school-based discrimination than anything else. Ivy leaguers generally just aren't that good.
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On April 10 2012 15:57 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Angry asian kid claiming that the NBA is pretty much the world's most racist organization and hates asians.
What did I just read lol?
On April 10 2012 15:57 Zidane wrote: He was a mix of being overrated and overperforming, and it showed towards the end before his injury. I watched all games the played with the warriors and he STILL is overrated.
I'd would rank him slightly below average in the NBA starting PG area.
Definitely was not racism.
Basically these two sum up my opinion on this... he's not an extremely good player that totally stands out from everybody else like Lebron or Kobe, he's average at best - somewhat streaky, and pretty inconsistent. The fact that he is Asian American helps boost his popularity, not the other way around.
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Being a full asian thats lived in the states and played sports there, i know what a lot of asian americans have to go through. man, whenever i played a pickup game with strangers, i almost always got picked last, and if i missed my first shot, i would not get the ball back again. If i ever did get the ball back, everyone would yell at me to pass even if i had an open shot. If i played game with my friends, i'd be one of the best players and score a lot because my friends know my game regardless of race. But if we end up playing with another group of people and we decide to split teams up, my white and black friends would score more, assist more, everything because i don't get enough touches and my new teammates wouldn't trust me. So in that regards, I can definitely relate to maybe how jeremy lin felt when he got overlooked everywhere.
there are oppurtunities, and im really glad jeremy lin got one and succeeded. its just that asians have far fewer chances. i guess i just have to make my first shots more.
Oh yeah, and don't forget the fans at different colleges that played against jeremy lin chanting "Ch*nk!" and even calling him yao ming
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Whenever there is the stereotypical racism blog on TL from a US citizen (you guys take racism way too seriously btw, or at least you tend to call every little stereotype "racism!" way too quickly), I often start to wonder about one thing: Do people who believe there is a grand scheme of the white man opressing all other people, really believe something along the lines of there'd be a point in the life of a stereotypical white male, where another white male comes up to them and offers them anything for free, like a high paid position in business or a scholarship? lol
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It works both ways. An employer at a tech company would probably select an asian over a black guy. A basketball scout would select a black guy over an asian. This is based on generalizations about things that are cultural and genetic. It's a perfectly practical thing to do. Just because there is an exception here and there does not mean that generalizations aren't useful a great majority of the time. You can't realistically go through life and treat every person you encounter, animal, thing, etc. as a blank slate. If you come upon a snake in nature, you don't assume that it's as friendly as your neighbor's golden retriever. There's of course a chance that it might be, but you're better off assuming it's not.
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On April 10 2012 15:28 Itsmedudeman wrote: Umm, Lin was not always great and a starter worthy basketball player. He did have chances, he was on the Warriors and got some minutes before being traded and also got minutes on the Knicks before moving down to D-league for a short period of time. It's a "miracle" because he literally did come out of nowhere after doing literally nothing in the NBA after an entire year and being placed into D-league. And you give people too little credit. Scouts for basketball/football typically always know what they're doing. You think they overlooked him because of racism? He's bigger than he should be BECAUSE he's Asian, not the other way around here.
It's not about size, or overcoming size. There's a reason why the NBA is 90% black and it has a lot more to do than blacks being taller on average. Hell, I'm a bit upset you said he didn't overcome anything like Rudy. You still need an absurd amount of talent and skill to play basketball at that level if you're 6'3.
Wait what? He lead his HS team to the state championship
+ Show Spoiler +In his senior year in 2005–2006, Lin captained Palo Alto High School to a 32–1 record and upset nationally ranked Mater Dei, 51–47, for the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) Division II state title.[18][19] He was named first-team All-State and Northern California Division II Player of the Year, ending his senior year averaging 15.1 points, 7.1 assists, 6.2 rebounds and 5.0 steals
Then big basketball schools (UCLA, Stanford, Berkely) did not offer lin any promises to join the school's team. Lin went to Harvard because he was promised to play there
A Harvard coach remembered Lin in his freshman season as "the [physically] weakest guy on the team",[29] but in his sophomore season (2007–08), Lin averaged 12.6 points and was named All-Ivy League Second Team.[18] By his junior year during the 2008–09 season, he was the only NCAA Division I men's basketball player who ranked in the top ten in his conference
He keeps it up
n his senior year (2009–10), Lin averaged 16.4 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 2.4 steals and 1.1 blocks, and was again a unanimous selection for All-Ivy League First Team. He was one of 30 midseason candidates for the John R. Wooden Award[31] and one of 11 finalists for the Bob Cousy Award.[32] He was also invited to the Portsmouth Invitational Tournament.[33] Fran Fraschilla of ESPN picked Lin among the 12 most versatile players in college basketball .
Its not like he acquired basketball skills in less than a year he has always been good. The argument the OP makes is that he was overlooked because hes asian and considering there are probably >3 asians in the NBA they aren't considered basketball players.
Lets put it like this when you think of a basketball player what race do you think of? Black
Tennis? White
The argument is people just think, well hes black and tall so hes a good basketball player.
Scouts did overlook him, i mean look at his resume it speaks for himself. Even in the D-League he was ripping it up i could post those as well.
His play is far from perfect but his short stint with the Knicks showed he belongs in the NBA, he can only get better if his injury doesn't hold him back.
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The NBA is the least racist of any entertainment industry, basically responsible for the first black everything in sports.
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United States22883 Posts
Do you have any idea how many players who average 20+ppg in college (in better leagues, mind you) end up doing nothing in the NBA? He played 1 game in the DLeague and while it was fantastic, DLeague numbers don't mean much. Maybe Stanford and the other schools passed him up because he's asian, but NBA teams didn't. To say his resume speaks for itself shows extreme ignorance of the level of player in the NBA, and what they had previously done in college. Being at an Ivy League school held him back more than anything else.
Look at the PG the Knicks selected in 2010 (same year Lin went undrafted), Andy Rautin. We all know white Canadians are known for their basketball pedigree! He went 29-0 his senior year in highschool to win the state championship in whatever minor division they were in, became a member of the Canadian National team and went to play at Syracuse, one of the premier basketball powerhouses in the NCAA. His senior year he's second team All Big East (top 3 conference). People talk about how Lin had a great game against the Huskies once, but this guy did it for four seasons, and against UNC, Florida, Georgetown, Notre Dame, Cincy, Memphis, Butler, Gonzaga, Louisville, etc.
So, who are you going to pick between Lin and Rautin? The guy who played in a conference that doesn't produce NBA players and only faced a couple top teams his entire collegiate career, or the guy who played at one of the best schools in the country, in one of the best conferences and faced future NBA players every other game? Ignoring workouts, every reasonable person would pick Rautin given these backgrounds. Yet Rautins is terrible and Lin is starter quality. That's just how talent evaluation goes. Don't bring up this crap about being overlooked - his collegiate career was below average compared to most NBA players.
There was no reason for any team to draft him. There just wasn't. He had good, not great, numbers in a terrible conference against terrible competition. If he had played in a different system, perhaps he could've averaged 25+ and then people would've noticed but that's not what happened. Literally every NBA team is filled with guys who averaged 20+ in college, and most of them are benchwarmers.
It's like an A iccup player winning Courage and then going on a win streak in SPL. That A iccup rating doesn't mean shit to pro teams, and the fact that the kid turned out to be a good player was never represented in his play on iccup.
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On April 10 2012 18:50 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:21 Itsmedudeman wrote: "The NBA had not drafted an Ivy League player since Jerome Allen of Penn in the second round in 1995. The last Ivy League player to play in the NBA was Yale's Chris Dudley in 2003, while the last Harvard player was Ed Smith in 1954."
I'd say it has more to do with the league he played in over his race. The fact that he wasn't even Ivy league player of the year and got in says a lot. Great post. It's clearly more league/school-based discrimination than anything else. Ivy leaguers generally just aren't that good.
I gotta keep coming back to make this same statement. I don't think this is the case at all. In fact, I don't even believe that "Ivy Leaguers aren't that good", since I bet they could be if they just had more time to play/had the same recruiting power as other schools. The limitations set on playing hours, demands of school, requirements for entrance, etc make it very difficult to get students in, but honestly, before my junior high school, I didn't know jack diddly squat about this. In fact 90 percent of my friends who don't do sports probably don't know anything about my life, athletics on campus or how tough it is to play sports when you're essentially getting ripped up by super try hard kids. We don't get to pick classes ahead of other schools like other students, we don't get more financial aid based on our athletic successes and the most breaks we get is "oh, you can hand in that assignment some time later, you can take the test on another (usually sooner) date and you can copy your friends notes. There's also tutoring if you have time, but you don't get precedence on that either over other students." Yea we're gonna suck, but you know what, no one here outside of sports thinks that. I never thought that before coming here and no kid from UNC or Syracuse is saying, gee golly, I wonder why those Ivy Leaguers get knocked out of March Madness first round almost every year.
Same thing probably goes for the NBA. If a player saw JLin, they wouldn't immediately say, "oh hey, he went to Harvard! I heard its hard for athletes to perform well." "Gee they're so underrepresented in sports today, I do wonder if they ever get a chance to make it into the NBA, NHL, NASCAR, NFL, etc."
Instead, if they saw JLin, I'm sure it'd go more along the lines of, "Hey look another Asian. Just like another Yao Ming, except a lot smaller." Of course this is me assuming that the people watching don't overlook the fact that he's basically one of 5 or so Asian players in the entire NBA. But that must be the case. People won't judge by race, instead they'll observe his good looks and realize that the way he plays indicates that he's an Ivy Leaguer.
I know I'm sounding like a total jackass right now, but honestly, people who claim its his league over his ethnicity is doing exactly what I was saying before. They recognize a racial fallacy, but then immediately try to pin it on a more politically correct reason, just to try to minimize any possibility that it was because he's Asian. And it happens all the time. In the other thread about him and in here, at least 5 times I've heard this argument and I've heard it outside as well. Also, if this were the case, then why do people always find the need to disclaim the fact that its because he's asian? I've read full articles arguing against the racial profiling. If it were because he came from the Ivy's, then an obvious fact is an obvious fact. When everyone's screaming "its cause he's an Ivy League student, not cause he's asian", then I want to know why everyone is being so self incriminating or feel the need to disprove the masses. It just doesn't make sense to me.
And I'm gonna be totally honest here. This racial profiling problem is hardly an issue for asians. Sure it hurts us from time to time, but it doesn't do nearly the amount of damage that it does to other minorities in America, and I'm a perpetrator as well. It's ingrained in our culture and will probably be until we either achieve some kind of homogeneity some time in the future or somehow remove all nongenetic association (positive and negative) on race.
A couple more anecdotes, just cause I'm procrastinating super hard right now. So I do track and another Korean friend of mine does Football here. He's the only Far Eastern Asian there. The other one is Hawaiin (pacific islander), but he's 4th seed QB anyways. My Korean friend doesn't see much playing time. But I can tell you something about a nickname he's gotten! It's "Panda", because he's a large Asian. Well hey, I'm a shotputter, meaning I'm a big Korean guy too. Can you guess one of the nicknames I got my freshman year, before my friend even got here? "Panda". Hoho. People are so clever. Here's another one. My friend was telling me about a basketball game he went to when he was in high school. Their biggest rival school had an international chinese student who loved basketball. Tall guy who could play. So what did his school do? They had everyone in the stadium buy chopsticks and when he went up to take a free throw, they'd click all of the chopsticks together. This on top of the pretend chinese they would scream. That wouldn't fly at all if I did something similar with a black student. I'm not saying either is right, but what I am saying is that our sense of racism in America is culturally based. We present a set of ideas or rules that say what we're supposed to believe is within okay bounds to say. Suddenly a bunch of double standards start popping up. Some of these things aren't even conscious. Some words and curses are more coercive than others purely by our uprising. I'm not proactive enough to do anything to change this, but I also do believe, for better or worse, that this "new" racism does exist.
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On April 10 2012 22:33 DreamChaser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:28 Itsmedudeman wrote: Umm, Lin was not always great and a starter worthy basketball player. He did have chances, he was on the Warriors and got some minutes before being traded and also got minutes on the Knicks before moving down to D-league for a short period of time. It's a "miracle" because he literally did come out of nowhere after doing literally nothing in the NBA after an entire year and being placed into D-league. And you give people too little credit. Scouts for basketball/football typically always know what they're doing. You think they overlooked him because of racism? He's bigger than he should be BECAUSE he's Asian, not the other way around here.
It's not about size, or overcoming size. There's a reason why the NBA is 90% black and it has a lot more to do than blacks being taller on average. Hell, I'm a bit upset you said he didn't overcome anything like Rudy. You still need an absurd amount of talent and skill to play basketball at that level if you're 6'3. Wait what? He lead his HS team to the state championship + Show Spoiler +In his senior year in 2005–2006, Lin captained Palo Alto High School to a 32–1 record and upset nationally ranked Mater Dei, 51–47, for the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) Division II state title.[18][19] He was named first-team All-State and Northern California Division II Player of the Year, ending his senior year averaging 15.1 points, 7.1 assists, 6.2 rebounds and 5.0 steals Then big basketball schools (UCLA, Stanford, Berkely) did not offer lin any promises to join the school's team. Lin went to Harvard because he was promised to play there Show nested quote +A Harvard coach remembered Lin in his freshman season as "the [physically] weakest guy on the team",[29] but in his sophomore season (2007–08), Lin averaged 12.6 points and was named All-Ivy League Second Team.[18] By his junior year during the 2008–09 season, he was the only NCAA Division I men's basketball player who ranked in the top ten in his conference He keeps it up Show nested quote +n his senior year (2009–10), Lin averaged 16.4 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 2.4 steals and 1.1 blocks, and was again a unanimous selection for All-Ivy League First Team. He was one of 30 midseason candidates for the John R. Wooden Award[31] and one of 11 finalists for the Bob Cousy Award.[32] He was also invited to the Portsmouth Invitational Tournament.[33] Fran Fraschilla of ESPN picked Lin among the 12 most versatile players in college basketball . Its not like he acquired basketball skills in less than a year he has always been good. The argument the OP makes is that he was overlooked because hes asian and considering there are probably >3 asians in the NBA they aren't considered basketball players. Lets put it like this when you think of a basketball player what race do you think of? Black Tennis? White The argument is people just think, well hes black and tall so hes a good basketball player. Scouts did overlook him, i mean look at his resume it speaks for himself. Even in the D-League he was ripping it up i could post those as well. His play is far from perfect but his short stint with the Knicks showed he belongs in the NBA, he can only get better if his injury doesn't hold him back.
How was he overlooked by the NBA? He is in it right now. Yea he wasn't a high pick but he played for Harvard and he didn't have mind blowing stats. Shows bias against non big 6 leagues because unless you are putting up huge numbers people assume you aren't good because the league your playing in is at a lower level, in this case the Ivy league.
Now you can argue that at the High school to College level he was overlooked because of this. But his transition to the NBA to Linsanity has to do more with a small league player coming out of nowhere. Oh and he happens to be Asian so it makes the story more exciting because there haven't been many in the league and he plays for the Nicks so everything is amplified by 10x
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I call my Asian friends "yellow people" and my portugese friend "Chewbacca".
The day people will stop making such a fuss about "racism", racism will disappear. Racism is ignorance, and yes, people are ignorant, have always been, and will always be. Period.
Let ESPN say whatever they want, for God's sake.
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On April 10 2012 15:30 red4ce wrote: Speaking from a purely basketball point of view, while Jeremy's ethnicity certainly deprived him of many opportunities I don't think it's the only reason he went overlooked. Simply put, he doesn't fit the mold of the traditional NBA point guard. Point guards from Ivy league schools with a weird looking jumpshot and not much speed or jumping ability typically don't get drafted. lin's problem is not a lack of athleticism. if anything he's an athlete and not much else, certainly doesn't fit the stereotype of cerebral asian player
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For a comparison, Keith Wright just finished his senior season at Harvard, has stats comparable to Lin's college stats, won Ivy League Player of the Year as a Junior, which Lin never won, and is projected to go undrafted, just like Jeremy Lin. There are also 30 players with a better PER this year than Lin had in his best college season, and several of these players are projected to go undrafted as well, because they got their stats against inferior competition. There was no indication from Lin's college career that he was anything more than a borderline NBA talent.
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United States369 Posts
On April 10 2012 23:34 Kukaracha wrote: I call my Asian friends "yellow people" and my portugese friend "Chewbacca".
The day people will stop making such a fuss about "racism", racism will disappear. Racism is ignorance, and yes, people are ignorant, have always been, and will always be. Period.
Let ESPN say whatever they want, for God's sake.
If racism is ignorance and you want people to stop "making such a fuss about 'racism'", are you saying you want people to stop making such a kerfuffle about other people being ignorant?
Part of the problem is indeed ignorance, and the thing about ignorance is that it will not go away if you simply try to brush the matter aside.
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On April 11 2012 02:31 fishuu wrote: If racism is ignorance and you want people to stop "making such a fuss about 'racism'", are you saying you want people to stop making such a kerfuffle about other people being ignorant?
Part of the problem is indeed ignorance, and the thing about ignorance is that it will not go away if you simply try to brush the matter aside.
"And the thing about ignorance is that it will not go away." No matter what you do. Racism is simply a form of xenophobia, and there will always be some sort of hate towards the unknown. What is "known" will shift naturally from one thing to another.
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On April 10 2012 23:34 Kukaracha wrote: I call my Asian friends "yellow people" and my portugese friend "Chewbacca".
The day people will stop making such a fuss about "racism", racism will disappear. Racism is ignorance, and yes, people are ignorant, have always been, and will always be. Period.
Let ESPN say whatever they want, for God's sake.
oh yea, and lets be real no fake and use the n word too on national tv. that'll move the civil rights movement at least a decade forward.
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United States369 Posts
On April 11 2012 02:45 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 02:31 fishuu wrote: If racism is ignorance and you want people to stop "making such a fuss about 'racism'", are you saying you want people to stop making such a kerfuffle about other people being ignorant?
Part of the problem is indeed ignorance, and the thing about ignorance is that it will not go away if you simply try to brush the matter aside. "And the thing about ignorance is that it will not go away." No matter what you do. Racism is simply a form of xenophobia, and there will always be some sort of hate towards the unknown. What is "known" will shift naturally from one thing to another.
I'm not saying "Let's vanquish ignorance and racism forever in the blink of an eye!" However, arguments like "Well, it's always gonna be there, so what's the point of doing anything?" are just as pointless as saying "If we ignore the problem, it'll go away." Apathy IS a part of the problem.
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On April 10 2012 23:34 Kukaracha wrote: I call my Asian friends "yellow people" and my portugese friend "Chewbacca".
The day people will stop making such a fuss about "racism", racism will disappear. Racism is ignorance, and yes, people are ignorant, have always been, and will always be. Period.
Let ESPN say whatever they want, for God's sake.
This is ignorant on so many levels. Racism affects people everyday on levels you don't know.
If you haven't done your own research or taken a class on ethnic studies, please don't make such statements.
If you did, you would know that it is usually racist people that say "Oh, don't bring up race. It's a thing of the past". What this actually does is keep in place a system founded on racism where minorities have a work a great deal harder to achieve the same results of other racial groups.
Color blindness isn't a good thing; it prevents much needed social change.
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On April 11 2012 02:45 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 02:31 fishuu wrote: If racism is ignorance and you want people to stop "making such a fuss about 'racism'", are you saying you want people to stop making such a kerfuffle about other people being ignorant?
Part of the problem is indeed ignorance, and the thing about ignorance is that it will not go away if you simply try to brush the matter aside. "And the thing about ignorance is that it will not go away." No matter what you do. Racism is simply a form of xenophobia, and there will always be some sort of hate towards the unknown. What is "known" will shift naturally from one thing to another. We can't live forever either. Are you saying that we shouldn't try to live longer?
Of course ignorance will never go away. That's the dumbest, most obvious thing I've ever heard.
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On April 10 2012 22:33 DreamChaser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:28 Itsmedudeman wrote: Umm, Lin was not always great and a starter worthy basketball player. He did have chances, he was on the Warriors and got some minutes before being traded and also got minutes on the Knicks before moving down to D-league for a short period of time. It's a "miracle" because he literally did come out of nowhere after doing literally nothing in the NBA after an entire year and being placed into D-league. And you give people too little credit. Scouts for basketball/football typically always know what they're doing. You think they overlooked him because of racism? He's bigger than he should be BECAUSE he's Asian, not the other way around here.
It's not about size, or overcoming size. There's a reason why the NBA is 90% black and it has a lot more to do than blacks being taller on average. Hell, I'm a bit upset you said he didn't overcome anything like Rudy. You still need an absurd amount of talent and skill to play basketball at that level if you're 6'3. Wait what? He lead his HS team to the state championship + Show Spoiler +In his senior year in 2005–2006, Lin captained Palo Alto High School to a 32–1 record and upset nationally ranked Mater Dei, 51–47, for the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) Division II state title.[18][19] He was named first-team All-State and Northern California Division II Player of the Year, ending his senior year averaging 15.1 points, 7.1 assists, 6.2 rebounds and 5.0 steals Then big basketball schools (UCLA, Stanford, Berkely) did not offer lin any promises to join the school's team. Lin went to Harvard because he was promised to play there Show nested quote +A Harvard coach remembered Lin in his freshman season as "the [physically] weakest guy on the team",[29] but in his sophomore season (2007–08), Lin averaged 12.6 points and was named All-Ivy League Second Team.[18] By his junior year during the 2008–09 season, he was the only NCAA Division I men's basketball player who ranked in the top ten in his conference He keeps it up Show nested quote +n his senior year (2009–10), Lin averaged 16.4 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 2.4 steals and 1.1 blocks, and was again a unanimous selection for All-Ivy League First Team. He was one of 30 midseason candidates for the John R. Wooden Award[31] and one of 11 finalists for the Bob Cousy Award.[32] He was also invited to the Portsmouth Invitational Tournament.[33] Fran Fraschilla of ESPN picked Lin among the 12 most versatile players in college basketball . Its not like he acquired basketball skills in less than a year he has always been good. The argument the OP makes is that he was overlooked because hes asian and considering there are probably >3 asians in the NBA they aren't considered basketball players. Lets put it like this when you think of a basketball player what race do you think of? Black Tennis? White The argument is people just think, well hes black and tall so hes a good basketball player. Scouts did overlook him, i mean look at his resume it speaks for himself. Even in the D-League he was ripping it up i could post those as well. His play is far from perfect but his short stint with the Knicks showed he belongs in the NBA, he can only get better if his injury doesn't hold him back. He played in Division II of high school, and please explain to me how those ivy league stats are impressive at all when I just posted stats of Ivy league drafts into the NBA? He went into D-league, did well in one game, and IMMEDIATELY got placed back into the NBA and the very next game was when he started doing well. But yeah, keep talking with half the facts.
You think he's always had those skills when he averaged 16 ppg in a weak college league and then he drops 38 on the lakers and plenty other 20+ point performances against NBA caliber players? Okay
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On April 10 2012 16:21 Gak2 wrote: actually, in Fast Five the asian guy gets the really hot girl.
The director was Asian..
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On April 10 2012 15:34 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not racism, they didn't overlook him because of his race, they overlooked him because they felt African-Americans can play better.
-.- that's the same thing as overlooking him because because of his race.
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On April 11 2012 07:01 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 23:34 Kukaracha wrote: I call my Asian friends "yellow people" and my portugese friend "Chewbacca".
The day people will stop making such a fuss about "racism", racism will disappear. Racism is ignorance, and yes, people are ignorant, have always been, and will always be. Period.
Let ESPN say whatever they want, for God's sake. This is ignorant on so many levels. Racism affects people everyday on levels you don't know. If you haven't done your own research or taken a class on ethnic studies, please don't make such statements. If you did, you would know that it is usually racist people that say "Oh, don't bring up race. It's a thing of the past". What this actually does is keep in place a system founded on racism where minorities have a work a great deal harder to achieve the same results of other racial groups. Color blindness isn't a good thing; it prevents much needed social change.
If you actually paid attention to your "studies", you would know that racism has always been there, in much stronger ways than today. Many foreign tribes use a diminishing word for stranger such as "sub-human", "ghost" or "no soul". White conquistadors treated South Americans like cattle, when indians in turn have been know to torture white men to try and see if they had souls or not.
"Racism" actually ocurred between cities a few decades ago. Here in France, people think that the current immigration situation is bad, but if you actually look at what happened to the previous wave of immigration at the beginning of the Industrialization era, you'd see that Europeans (Germans, Italians, Portugese) would be stoned to death until the whole family fled from the country. And yet nowadays, we treat them like brothers.
My point is that you should focus on security and severe equality issues, the rest is pure noise and will only go away by itself. You want to fight stereotypes? It's a lost cause. We ALL use generalizations in our everyday lives. You might be very angry at Jeremy Lin being called a "miracle", but what about those times when your taxi driver was actually an pure WASP and you were oh so surprised because you're expecting black or italian drivers? What about that time when you sat down next to Chinese people to study in the library because, well, Chinese people are quiet, everyone knows that, right?
Being so uptight on such matters, and being such a huge hypocrite that you criticize "racism" while ignoring your own generalizations is one of the biggest obstacles for change. Hell, we can't even talk about that kind of things in France. Call Israël a violent, illegitimate state and Palestine a victim, and you'll be accused of anti-semitism, when actually you're being anti-zionist. Get off your high horses and then maybe we can make a couple of steps forward.
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On April 10 2012 15:34 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not racism, they didn't overlook him because of his race, they overlooked him because they felt African-Americans can play better.
It's not necessarily ethnocentrism, but it is marking down a stereotype that still remains pertinent in this sport. In addition, he doesn't have much of a track record despite being well-built and statistically above-average.
By the way, you're last paragraphs is ranting on stereotypes, not racism. I think you're being touchy by pure marketing and mainstream's media way of hooking people in.
This whole post is a monument to stupidity. TL should have a monthly feature where crap like this gets nominated.
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I know what I'm saying here, but I'm not quite sure it's coming out as I want it. Should've slept, oh well.
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On April 10 2012 16:53 [Agony]x90 wrote:
What does this mean? Maybe I'm just lazy and jealous and can't throw far, but I do believe that asians are less physically capable to throw. But at the same time, its important to note that there are virtually no asians in a lot of American sports, such as football, baseball, basketball (and for me) track. People will always pick out individuals in the past, but that doesn't hide the fact that there have been a total of two Asian Americans in the NBA, one who played in 1947 and another who we are discussing today. This is probably for the same reason that asians just can't keep up physically, but, I also think there is a massive hindrance due to racism.
I'm sorry but either you don't know baseball, or you are an idiot, there are a ton of huge asians in baseball. More and more keep coming over from japan and a few other places as well. Yu Darvish was just signed to an absurd salary for a guy who never showed anything in the bigs. Yu is half iranian, but it's not like middle eastern people are that well represented in professional sports either. Dice-K, ichiro, chin soo choo, etc.
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Thanks for the read, I found it interesting. I'm not really knowledgable to give any critique as to how far the extent of racism goes in developed countries these days but I definitely believe it's still a very real phenomenon.
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