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On April 10 2012 15:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Umm, Lin was not always great and a starter worthy basketball player. He did have chances, he was on the Warriors and got some minutes before being traded and also got minutes on the Knicks before moving down to D-league for a short period of time. It's a "miracle" because he literally did come out of nowhere after doing literally nothing in the NBA after an entire year and being placed into D-league. And you give people too little credit. Scouts for basketball/football typically always know what they're doing. You think they overlooked him because of racism? He's bigger than he should be BECAUSE he's Asian, not the other way around here.
It's not about size, or overcoming size. There's a reason why the NBA is 90% black and it has a lot more to do than blacks being taller on average. Hell, I'm a bit upset you said he didn't overcome anything like Rudy. You still need an absurd amount of talent and skill to play basketball at that level if you're 6'3.
This is something I want to really, really point out. People's jobs depend on things like this. It's similar to betting odds in vegas for major sporting events..
Do you, a casual fan or even hardcore fan of the sport, think you're smarter than the lines makers? You think they haven't analyzed every piece of data they could and heard any rumors or inside sources on various subjects too? People take their jobs seriously and would not overlook him for any reason other than his own shortcomings as a player. Also, it should be noted, ESPN is generally filled with hacks. You can go there for scores or some interviews maybe, but if you expect true in-depth analysis anywhere on ESPN, you'll be mistaken. There might be a couple of diamonds in the rough, but they're few and far between.
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I think as you said racists are good at convincing the world it doesn't exist, do you believe the inverse could be true as well? People are good at convincing themselves racism does exist in a situation it may not?
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Do you, a casual fan or even hardcore fan of the sport, think you're smarter than the lines makers? You think they haven't analyzed every piece of data they could and heard any rumors or inside sources on various subjects too? People take their jobs seriously and would not overlook him for any reason other than his own shortcomings as a player. Also, it should be noted, ESPN is generally filled with hacks. You can go there for scores or some interviews maybe, but if you expect true in-depth analysis anywhere on ESPN, you'll be mistaken. There might be a couple of diamonds in the rough, but they're few and far between.
No, professional scouts for the most part know what they're doing. But in this particular instance, I'd argue that they suffered from a cultural bias that created a glaring blind spot.
I think as you said racists are good at convincing the world it doesn't exist, do you believe the inverse could be true as well? People are good at convincing themselves racism does exist in a situation it may not?
Yes, it's quite possible. Part of this may arise from people's understanding and definition of racism. I'm sure there are some people who are "hypersensitive" to racism perhaps to compensate for some of their own deficiencies, or possess this worldview because of the way they were raised. One might argue that I'm reading too much into media portrayal of Asians and linking that with racism, but I think I have a fairly strong case here, especially if you realize that this is not an isolated situation, and it's even more obvious in places like Hollywood.
Also, thanks to [Agony]x90 in particular for a great post helping to illustrate my point a bit. I wrote this mostly to provide a perspective that most people here may be unaccustomed to taking, and hopefully people will understand why Lin really energized the Asian-American community the way he did.
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Interesting article, I think a lot of it is on point although I really don't know much about what it's like in America. If you haven't already, I recommend reading Alex Garfield's thoughts on modern racism in response to the orb controversy.
+ Show Spoiler +As always, UD gets the shaft even when people make poor WC3 analogies. It's not like they're a playable race or anything =/
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I would like to say that writing was very well written and understandable, not even considering whether or not I agree, well done.
Now as far as basketball I don't know much about it, but I would be highly skeptical of anyone who thought asians weren't, to some degree, weren't mildly, maybe even unconsciously, discriminated against. I also agree that the media will definitly avoid truly bringing up the topic of racism seriously and realistically.
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I very seriously doubt a pro scout in any lucrative sport will overlook real talent over something like race. It just doesn't make any sense from a purely business / competition perspective. These guys are professionals, they are paid to find talent and get it where it is needed. I'm afraid your entire post stands on rather shaky legs. Plus, the second he was officially recognized as a talented player, he basically exploded all over the place to a degree radically above his skill level.
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On April 10 2012 17:54 Kickboxer wrote:
I very seriously doubt a pro scout in any lucrative sport will overlook real talent over something like race. It just doesn't make any sense from a purely business / competition perspective. These guys are professionals, they are paid to find talent and get it where it is needed. I'm afraid your entire post stands on rather shaky legs. Plus, the second he was officially recognized as a talented player, he basically exploded all over the place to a degree radically above his skill level.
He DID get scouted so people talking about racist scouts is unwarranted. You have to remember that there was a shortened season and policy changes coinciding with the lockout that really screwed players like him in general. He didn't get let go for no reason.... he got let go so his team could make a critical trade while staying under the newly imposed cap.
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On April 10 2012 16:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:
"The NBA had not drafted an Ivy League player since Jerome Allen of Penn in the second round in 1995. The last Ivy League player to play in the NBA was Yale's Chris Dudley in 2003, while the last Harvard player was Ed Smith in 1954."
I'd say it has more to do with the league he played in over his race. The fact that he wasn't even Ivy league player of the year and got in says a lot.
Great post. It's clearly more league/school-based discrimination than anything else. Ivy leaguers generally just aren't that good.
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On April 10 2012 15:57 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
Angry asian kid claiming that the NBA is pretty much the world's most racist organization and hates asians.
What did I just read lol?
On April 10 2012 15:57 Zidane wrote:
He was a mix of being overrated and overperforming, and it showed towards the end before his injury. I watched all games the played with the warriors and he STILL is overrated.
I'd would rank him slightly below average in the NBA starting PG area.
Definitely was not racism.
Basically these two sum up my opinion on this... he's not an extremely good player that totally stands out from everybody else like Lebron or Kobe, he's average at best - somewhat streaky, and pretty inconsistent. The fact that he is Asian American helps boost his popularity, not the other way around.
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Being a full asian thats lived in the states and played sports there, i know what a lot of asian americans have to go through. man, whenever i played a pickup game with strangers, i almost always got picked last, and if i missed my first shot, i would not get the ball back again. If i ever did get the ball back, everyone would yell at me to pass even if i had an open shot. If i played game with my friends, i'd be one of the best players and score a lot because my friends know my game regardless of race. But if we end up playing with another group of people and we decide to split teams up, my white and black friends would score more, assist more, everything because i don't get enough touches and my new teammates wouldn't trust me. So in that regards, I can definitely relate to maybe how jeremy lin felt when he got overlooked everywhere.
there are oppurtunities, and im really glad jeremy lin got one and succeeded. its just that asians have far fewer chances. i guess i just have to make my first shots more.
Oh yeah, and don't forget the fans at different colleges that played against jeremy lin chanting "Ch*nk!" and even calling him yao ming
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Whenever there is the stereotypical racism blog on TL from a US citizen (you guys take racism way too seriously btw, or at least you tend to call every little stereotype "racism!" way too quickly), I often start to wonder about one thing: Do people who believe there is a grand scheme of the white man opressing all other people, really believe something along the lines of there'd be a point in the life of a stereotypical white male, where another white male comes up to them and offers them anything for free, like a high paid position in business or a scholarship? lol
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It works both ways. An employer at a tech company would probably select an asian over a black guy. A basketball scout would select a black guy over an asian. This is based on generalizations about things that are cultural and genetic. It's a perfectly practical thing to do. Just because there is an exception here and there does not mean that generalizations aren't useful a great majority of the time. You can't realistically go through life and treat every person you encounter, animal, thing, etc. as a blank slate. If you come upon a snake in nature, you don't assume that it's as friendly as your neighbor's golden retriever. There's of course a chance that it might be, but you're better off assuming it's not.
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On April 10 2012 15:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Umm, Lin was not always great and a starter worthy basketball player. He did have chances, he was on the Warriors and got some minutes before being traded and also got minutes on the Knicks before moving down to D-league for a short period of time. It's a "miracle" because he literally did come out of nowhere after doing literally nothing in the NBA after an entire year and being placed into D-league. And you give people too little credit. Scouts for basketball/football typically always know what they're doing. You think they overlooked him because of racism? He's bigger than he should be BECAUSE he's Asian, not the other way around here.
It's not about size, or overcoming size. There's a reason why the NBA is 90% black and it has a lot more to do than blacks being taller on average. Hell, I'm a bit upset you said he didn't overcome anything like Rudy. You still need an absurd amount of talent and skill to play basketball at that level if you're 6'3.
Wait what? He lead his HS team to the state championship
+ Show Spoiler +In his senior year in 2005–2006, Lin captained Palo Alto High School to a 32–1 record and upset nationally ranked Mater Dei, 51–47, for the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) Division II state title.[18][19] He was named first-team All-State and Northern California Division II Player of the Year, ending his senior year averaging 15.1 points, 7.1 assists, 6.2 rebounds and 5.0 steals
Then big basketball schools (UCLA, Stanford, Berkely) did not offer lin any promises to join the school's team. Lin went to Harvard because he was promised to play there
A Harvard coach remembered Lin in his freshman season as "the [physically] weakest guy on the team",[29] but in his sophomore season (2007–08), Lin averaged 12.6 points and was named All-Ivy League Second Team.[18] By his junior year during the 2008–09 season, he was the only NCAA Division I men's basketball player who ranked in the top ten in his conference
He keeps it up
n his senior year (2009–10), Lin averaged 16.4 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 2.4 steals and 1.1 blocks, and was again a unanimous selection for All-Ivy League First Team. He was one of 30 midseason candidates for the John R. Wooden Award[31] and one of 11 finalists for the Bob Cousy Award.[32] He was also invited to the Portsmouth Invitational Tournament.[33] Fran Fraschilla of ESPN picked Lin among the 12 most versatile players in college basketball .
Its not like he acquired basketball skills in less than a year he has always been good. The argument the OP makes is that he was overlooked because hes asian and considering there are probably >3 asians in the NBA they aren't considered basketball players.
Lets put it like this when you think of a basketball player what race do you think of? Black
Tennis? White
The argument is people just think, well hes black and tall so hes a good basketball player.
Scouts did overlook him, i mean look at his resume it speaks for himself. Even in the D-League he was ripping it up i could post those as well.
His play is far from perfect but his short stint with the Knicks showed he belongs in the NBA, he can only get better if his injury doesn't hold him back.
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The NBA is the least racist of any entertainment industry, basically responsible for the first black everything in sports.
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United States22883 Posts
Do you have any idea how many players who average 20+ppg in college (in better leagues, mind you) end up doing nothing in the NBA? He played 1 game in the DLeague and while it was fantastic, DLeague numbers don't mean much. Maybe Stanford and the other schools passed him up because he's asian, but NBA teams didn't. To say his resume speaks for itself shows extreme ignorance of the level of player in the NBA, and what they had previously done in college. Being at an Ivy League school held him back more than anything else.
Look at the PG the Knicks selected in 2010 (same year Lin went undrafted), Andy Rautin. We all know white Canadians are known for their basketball pedigree! He went 29-0 his senior year in highschool to win the state championship in whatever minor division they were in, became a member of the Canadian National team and went to play at Syracuse, one of the premier basketball powerhouses in the NCAA. His senior year he's second team All Big East (top 3 conference). People talk about how Lin had a great game against the Huskies once, but this guy did it for four seasons, and against UNC, Florida, Georgetown, Notre Dame, Cincy, Memphis, Butler, Gonzaga, Louisville, etc.
So, who are you going to pick between Lin and Rautin? The guy who played in a conference that doesn't produce NBA players and only faced a couple top teams his entire collegiate career, or the guy who played at one of the best schools in the country, in one of the best conferences and faced future NBA players every other game? Ignoring workouts, every reasonable person would pick Rautin given these backgrounds. Yet Rautins is terrible and Lin is starter quality. That's just how talent evaluation goes. Don't bring up this crap about being overlooked - his collegiate career was below average compared to most NBA players.
There was no reason for any team to draft him. There just wasn't. He had good, not great, numbers in a terrible conference against terrible competition. If he had played in a different system, perhaps he could've averaged 25+ and then people would've noticed but that's not what happened. Literally every NBA team is filled with guys who averaged 20+ in college, and most of them are benchwarmers.
It's like an A iccup player winning Courage and then going on a win streak in SPL. That A iccup rating doesn't mean shit to pro teams, and the fact that the kid turned out to be a good player was never represented in his play on iccup.
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On April 10 2012 18:50 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:
"The NBA had not drafted an Ivy League player since Jerome Allen of Penn in the second round in 1995. The last Ivy League player to play in the NBA was Yale's Chris Dudley in 2003, while the last Harvard player was Ed Smith in 1954."
I'd say it has more to do with the league he played in over his race. The fact that he wasn't even Ivy league player of the year and got in says a lot. Great post. It's clearly more league/school-based discrimination than anything else. Ivy leaguers generally just aren't that good.
I gotta keep coming back to make this same statement. I don't think this is the case at all. In fact, I don't even believe that "Ivy Leaguers aren't that good", since I bet they could be if they just had more time to play/had the same recruiting power as other schools. The limitations set on playing hours, demands of school, requirements for entrance, etc make it very difficult to get students in, but honestly, before my junior high school, I didn't know jack diddly squat about this. In fact 90 percent of my friends who don't do sports probably don't know anything about my life, athletics on campus or how tough it is to play sports when you're essentially getting ripped up by super try hard kids. We don't get to pick classes ahead of other schools like other students, we don't get more financial aid based on our athletic successes and the most breaks we get is "oh, you can hand in that assignment some time later, you can take the test on another (usually sooner) date and you can copy your friends notes. There's also tutoring if you have time, but you don't get precedence on that either over other students." Yea we're gonna suck, but you know what, no one here outside of sports thinks that. I never thought that before coming here and no kid from UNC or Syracuse is saying, gee golly, I wonder why those Ivy Leaguers get knocked out of March Madness first round almost every year.
Same thing probably goes for the NBA. If a player saw JLin, they wouldn't immediately say, "oh hey, he went to Harvard! I heard its hard for athletes to perform well." "Gee they're so underrepresented in sports today, I do wonder if they ever get a chance to make it into the NBA, NHL, NASCAR, NFL, etc."
Instead, if they saw JLin, I'm sure it'd go more along the lines of, "Hey look another Asian. Just like another Yao Ming, except a lot smaller." Of course this is me assuming that the people watching don't overlook the fact that he's basically one of 5 or so Asian players in the entire NBA. But that must be the case. People won't judge by race, instead they'll observe his good looks and realize that the way he plays indicates that he's an Ivy Leaguer.
I know I'm sounding like a total jackass right now, but honestly, people who claim its his league over his ethnicity is doing exactly what I was saying before. They recognize a racial fallacy, but then immediately try to pin it on a more politically correct reason, just to try to minimize any possibility that it was because he's Asian. And it happens all the time. In the other thread about him and in here, at least 5 times I've heard this argument and I've heard it outside as well. Also, if this were the case, then why do people always find the need to disclaim the fact that its because he's asian? I've read full articles arguing against the racial profiling. If it were because he came from the Ivy's, then an obvious fact is an obvious fact. When everyone's screaming "its cause he's an Ivy League student, not cause he's asian", then I want to know why everyone is being so self incriminating or feel the need to disprove the masses. It just doesn't make sense to me.
And I'm gonna be totally honest here. This racial profiling problem is hardly an issue for asians. Sure it hurts us from time to time, but it doesn't do nearly the amount of damage that it does to other minorities in America, and I'm a perpetrator as well. It's ingrained in our culture and will probably be until we either achieve some kind of homogeneity some time in the future or somehow remove all nongenetic association (positive and negative) on race.
A couple more anecdotes, just cause I'm procrastinating super hard right now. So I do track and another Korean friend of mine does Football here. He's the only Far Eastern Asian there. The other one is Hawaiin (pacific islander), but he's 4th seed QB anyways. My Korean friend doesn't see much playing time. But I can tell you something about a nickname he's gotten! It's "Panda", because he's a large Asian. Well hey, I'm a shotputter, meaning I'm a big Korean guy too. Can you guess one of the nicknames I got my freshman year, before my friend even got here? "Panda". Hoho. People are so clever. Here's another one. My friend was telling me about a basketball game he went to when he was in high school. Their biggest rival school had an international chinese student who loved basketball. Tall guy who could play. So what did his school do? They had everyone in the stadium buy chopsticks and when he went up to take a free throw, they'd click all of the chopsticks together. This on top of the pretend chinese they would scream. That wouldn't fly at all if I did something similar with a black student. I'm not saying either is right, but what I am saying is that our sense of racism in America is culturally based. We present a set of ideas or rules that say what we're supposed to believe is within okay bounds to say. Suddenly a bunch of double standards start popping up. Some of these things aren't even conscious. Some words and curses are more coercive than others purely by our uprising. I'm not proactive enough to do anything to change this, but I also do believe, for better or worse, that this "new" racism does exist.
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On April 10 2012 22:33 DreamChaser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Umm, Lin was not always great and a starter worthy basketball player. He did have chances, he was on the Warriors and got some minutes before being traded and also got minutes on the Knicks before moving down to D-league for a short period of time. It's a "miracle" because he literally did come out of nowhere after doing literally nothing in the NBA after an entire year and being placed into D-league. And you give people too little credit. Scouts for basketball/football typically always know what they're doing. You think they overlooked him because of racism? He's bigger than he should be BECAUSE he's Asian, not the other way around here.
It's not about size, or overcoming size. There's a reason why the NBA is 90% black and it has a lot more to do than blacks being taller on average. Hell, I'm a bit upset you said he didn't overcome anything like Rudy. You still need an absurd amount of talent and skill to play basketball at that level if you're 6'3. Wait what? He lead his HS team to the state championship + Show Spoiler +In his senior year in 2005–2006, Lin captained Palo Alto High School to a 32–1 record and upset nationally ranked Mater Dei, 51–47, for the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) Division II state title.[18][19] He was named first-team All-State and Northern California Division II Player of the Year, ending his senior year averaging 15.1 points, 7.1 assists, 6.2 rebounds and 5.0 steals Then big basketball schools (UCLA, Stanford, Berkely) did not offer lin any promises to join the school's team. Lin went to Harvard because he was promised to play there Show nested quote +A Harvard coach remembered Lin in his freshman season as "the [physically] weakest guy on the team",[29] but in his sophomore season (2007–08), Lin averaged 12.6 points and was named All-Ivy League Second Team.[18] By his junior year during the 2008–09 season, he was the only NCAA Division I men's basketball player who ranked in the top ten in his conference He keeps it up Show nested quote +n his senior year (2009–10), Lin averaged 16.4 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 2.4 steals and 1.1 blocks, and was again a unanimous selection for All-Ivy League First Team. He was one of 30 midseason candidates for the John R. Wooden Award[31] and one of 11 finalists for the Bob Cousy Award.[32] He was also invited to the Portsmouth Invitational Tournament.[33] Fran Fraschilla of ESPN picked Lin among the 12 most versatile players in college basketball . Its not like he acquired basketball skills in less than a year he has always been good. The argument the OP makes is that he was overlooked because hes asian and considering there are probably >3 asians in the NBA they aren't considered basketball players. Lets put it like this when you think of a basketball player what race do you think of? Black Tennis? White The argument is people just think, well hes black and tall so hes a good basketball player. Scouts did overlook him, i mean look at his resume it speaks for himself. Even in the D-League he was ripping it up i could post those as well. His play is far from perfect but his short stint with the Knicks showed he belongs in the NBA, he can only get better if his injury doesn't hold him back.
How was he overlooked by the NBA? He is in it right now. Yea he wasn't a high pick but he played for Harvard and he didn't have mind blowing stats. Shows bias against non big 6 leagues because unless you are putting up huge numbers people assume you aren't good because the league your playing in is at a lower level, in this case the Ivy league.
Now you can argue that at the High school to College level he was overlooked because of this. But his transition to the NBA to Linsanity has to do more with a small league player coming out of nowhere. Oh and he happens to be Asian so it makes the story more exciting because there haven't been many in the league and he plays for the Nicks so everything is amplified by 10x
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I call my Asian friends "yellow people" and my portugese friend "Chewbacca".
The day people will stop making such a fuss about "racism", racism will disappear. Racism is ignorance, and yes, people are ignorant, have always been, and will always be. Period.
Let ESPN say whatever they want, for God's sake.
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On April 10 2012 15:30 red4ce wrote:
Speaking from a purely basketball point of view, while Jeremy's ethnicity certainly deprived him of many opportunities I don't think it's the only reason he went overlooked. Simply put, he doesn't fit the mold of the traditional NBA point guard. Point guards from Ivy league schools with a weird looking jumpshot and not much speed or jumping ability typically don't get drafted. lin's problem is not a lack of athleticism. if anything he's an athlete and not much else, certainly doesn't fit the stereotype of cerebral asian player
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For a comparison, Keith Wright just finished his senior season at Harvard, has stats comparable to Lin's college stats, won Ivy League Player of the Year as a Junior, which Lin never won, and is projected to go undrafted, just like Jeremy Lin. There are also 30 players with a better PER this year than Lin had in his best college season, and several of these players are projected to go undrafted as well, because they got their stats against inferior competition. There was no indication from Lin's college career that he was anything more than a borderline NBA talent.
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EPT
