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Hi, been playing alot of HoN lately as it is free, have some experience playing both hon and dota and i consider myself to be decent atleast. But as always, public hon atleast, everyone flames everyone for everything if something goes wrong.
But just now i had a game where an issue arose that i often have wondered about, i normally dont play carries but currently there is nothing fun gank or support wise for me to choose with my free account so i've been playing the madman carry for a few games. The issue at hand is my team "ganking" the enemy team, while i just stay and farm. This perticular game they did so on several occasions, on every occasion i told them to B since we saw nobody on the minimap, and lo and behold, everytime they were counterganked by 5 people vs their mostly 3 sometimes 4.
They then proceed to flame me all game per the usual for not helping, and last hitting whatever i farm for the next 10 minutes, not minding that we almost score a comeback when i finally get my damn BKB/Shrunken head.
Im just wondering, how often do you gank playing a carry? I gank whenever i see a lone hero, we are more and we are also close. I feel roaming around looking for a gank is just bound to get you counterganked if the enemy team is any decent and has wards, which is what normally happens in my games. And if you get a bad start as a carry it gets pretty hard.
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Australia8532 Posts
Well assuming you are playing with a team of friends or at least pubs you can trust if you pick such a hard carry such as madman your essentially running a 4/1 strategy where your team will practically be 4v5 until you get enough farm to be useful. As a hard carry you need to be constantly farming - lane, jungle, anything! If your team is wandering across the enemy jungle with no vision and no heroes on the map, well then they sort of deserve to lose.
The easiest way to win with a hard carry is get some good support on the team to ward up the map and go for pick offs on their team when a hero is out of position; this will allow you to turn your 4/1 strategy from a 4v5 to a 4v4. If you're not farmed and you have not picked off one of their heroes then it's a pretty dumb idea to engage. There is a fine balance between helping the team and being a ricing D-bag; so just carry a tp and at the very list port in for tower defences
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Ganking is situational and about opportunity. If there's no lane to free farm or if someone is overextended in a lane that you can farm, then going for a gank on that hero is efficient. Even if you fail the gank attempt you'll be where you want to be on the map. If they're close to their own side and on their tower then most of the time it's a waste for you to take a trip there. It's not a waste of time for your team if all the lanes are pushed however, you just need to know when to back off and when to time it. When you see 1 or 2 people making their trips to other lanes, then 3 or 4 people should swing around to the other guy who will be alone, gank him, and push the tower.
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On March 28 2012 05:38 bkrow wrote:
Well assuming you are playing with a team of friends or at least pubs you can trust if you pick such a hard carry such as madman your essentially running a 4/1 strategy where your team will practically be 4v5 until you get enough farm to be useful. As a hard carry you need to be constantly farming - lane, jungle, anything! If your team is wandering across the enemy jungle with no vision and no heroes on the map, well then they sort of deserve to lose.
The easiest way to win with a hard carry is get some good support on the team to ward up the map and go for pick offs on their team when a hero is out of position; this will allow you to turn your 4/1 strategy from a 4v5 to a 4v4. If you're not farmed and you have not picked off one of their heroes then it's a pretty dumb idea to engage. There is a fine balance between helping the team and being a ricing D-bag; so just carry a tp and at the very list port in for tower defences
Yeah this is what i figured, nobody has any self reflection in hon pubs however so whatever i say just doesn't matter. I also feel madman is pretty slow to get farmed on, you want your helm first as to not get two shotted by anyone, then you can start getting some dmg and a shrunken head eventually. I just feel like it takes a very long time for me to get some good damage going, this might be however since my teammates feed kills(even if its fairly even, say 20 enemy kills 15 us) and give them gold/xp?
Since i usually get helm, steamboots, shrunken and this is where i start to engage more and start to get some real dmg items, however when i enter the fray here i just feel like im not doing the damage im supposed to, even with ulti on and wayling away at people it takes a long time to get kills, this is usually around level 13 or so, but all relevant to how my team looks, if i get ganked due to no wards etc.
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 28 2012 06:01 unkkz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 05:38 bkrow wrote:
Well assuming you are playing with a team of friends or at least pubs you can trust if you pick such a hard carry such as madman your essentially running a 4/1 strategy where your team will practically be 4v5 until you get enough farm to be useful. As a hard carry you need to be constantly farming - lane, jungle, anything! If your team is wandering across the enemy jungle with no vision and no heroes on the map, well then they sort of deserve to lose.
The easiest way to win with a hard carry is get some good support on the team to ward up the map and go for pick offs on their team when a hero is out of position; this will allow you to turn your 4/1 strategy from a 4v5 to a 4v4. If you're not farmed and you have not picked off one of their heroes then it's a pretty dumb idea to engage. There is a fine balance between helping the team and being a ricing D-bag; so just carry a tp and at the very list port in for tower defences Yeah this is what i figured, nobody has any self reflection in hon pubs however so whatever i say just doesn't matter. I also feel madman is pretty slow to get farmed on, you want your helm first as to not get two shotted by anyone, then you can start getting some dmg and a shrunken head eventually. I just feel like it takes a very long time for me to get some good damage going, this might be however since my teammates feed kills(even if its fairly even, say 20 enemy kills 15 us) and give them gold/xp? Since i usually get helm, steamboots, shrunken and this is where i start to engage more and start to get some real dmg items, however when i enter the fray here i just feel like im not doing the damage im supposed to, even with ulti on and wayling away at people it takes a long time to get kills, this is usually around level 13 or so, but all relevant to how my team looks, if i get ganked due to no wards etc.
I know items are incredibly situational - but on madman if all things are going well i usually go sustainer (or at least life tube) then boots; based on the match up i can turn that into runed axe or null stone (defensive or offensive/farm item); and then after that shrunken. Again - all if necessary but i feel that early sustainer is a big help.
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If you are playing a carry then gank whenever you get a situation that benefits you(remember, you, not necessarily your team) This mostly means whenever you can get a quick pick off that leads to a towerkill or a teamfight win. Remember to always carry a tp though so you can tp in and sometimes save the day.
Roaming around as 5 pubtrain style as a hardcarry is generally a huge waste of time. You're much better of getting solofarm and the very nice solo xp. Most common mistake is the "GO AS FIVE IN THEIR JUNGLE NABS!" which usually leads to running trough wards and getting jumped.
There's really only 3 items that are good as first item on madman, Runed axe, nullstone and shrunken head. First two are most common, fast shrunken is really only best if you're getting owned. I'd never advise any other items, by helm I'd assume you mean Helm of the black legion (vanguard), not whispering helm (helm of the dominator) which is really really bad item on madman. Even before it's nerf when it was broken I'd still argue that it was not worth it. With invis, possible disjoin, steamboots and vestment madmans survivabillity is pretty damn good. And as far as your damage early game goes, most of your damage comes from your spells, but remember to change your boots to agility if you're wailing on them during your ult, assuming you're not being focused.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
It really depends what kind of carry you play, some heroes have larger chance or a larger impact on the game earlier then other ''harder'' carries.
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This is the reason why I only play semicarries in pubs. I figure that in pubs, the fastest way to farm is not to last hit creeps but to kill the feeders on the enemy team.
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You should gank as a carry if and only if kills are guaranteed and there isn't a free farm lane. Guaranteed kill usually means mid health with help from your team and ward vision of counter gank paths, ward on rune or you guys have rune control, and either a ward behind tower, vision of tower, or far enough away from tower that a tp can't save whoever you're trying to kill. If all those conditions aren't met in pubs then ganking is a waste of time, you're better off free farming and last hitting towers.
That being said, madman is actually an extremely strong hero for a carry to ks with, lots of mobility and a good slow (god forbid you lvled his ult before 10). You shouldn't be involved in large 5v5 team fights though, just 2v2 skirmishes that are actually ganks, I doubt what your team did was ganking though. They were probably just wondering around the enemy forest with no wards and no idea what's waiting for them praying to god that they find a single person.
I figure that in pubs, the fastest way to farm is not to last hit creeps but to kill the feeders on the enemy team.
That is so wrong it hurts, static free farm rapes running around the map hunting down newbies with very very few exceptions.
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On March 28 2012 09:34 Count9 wrote:You should gank as a carry if and only if kills are guaranteed and there isn't a free farm lane. Guaranteed kill usually means mid health with help from your team and ward vision of counter gank paths, ward on rune or you guys have rune control, and either a ward behind tower, vision of tower, or far enough away from tower that a tp can't save whoever you're trying to kill. If all those conditions aren't met in pubs then ganking is a waste of time, you're better off free farming and last hitting towers. That being said, madman is actually an extremely strong hero for a carry to ks with, lots of mobility and a good slow (god forbid you lvled his ult before 10). You shouldn't be involved in large 5v5 team fights though, just 2v2 skirmishes that are actually ganks, I doubt what your team did was ganking though. They were probably just wondering around the enemy forest with no wards and no idea what's waiting for them praying to god that they find a single person. Show nested quote +I figure that in pubs, the fastest way to farm is not to last hit creeps but to kill the feeders on the enemy team. That is so wrong it hurts, static free farm rapes running around the map hunting down newbies with very very few exceptions.
Depends which hero you play. If you use SA (or whatever the same hero is HoN) in pub its more efficient to just solo bad players. With the early kills you will be so far ahead that you will be able to instagib most hero's with silence+backstab and leave unscathed.
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RULE#1 IN HON CARRY A TP AT ALL TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ehh after that do w/e. If your new to hon the bm can seem harsh but eventually you start to like it lol.
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Madman is actually a very good mid/ganking carry, but farming > running around like a retard.
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On March 28 2012 12:00 cmen15 wrote:
RULE#1 IN HON CARRY A TP AT ALL TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ehh after that do w/e. If your new to hon the bm can seem harsh but eventually you start to like it lol.
That's not really followed. Rule #1 is like "pick scout." Rule #2 is like "Say UEAUEHUSEHAUEAUEUSHUA" in chat whenever you can. Rule #3 is like "Vote concede at 15 even if you are winning."
Somewhere down the line of like rule 39ish do you get to things like "bring regen when you go to lane" or "carry tps if you're going to farm" or "don't wander across the river when enemies are missing."
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On March 28 2012 09:34 Count9 wrote:You should gank as a carry if and only if kills are guaranteed and there isn't a free farm lane. Guaranteed kill usually means mid health with help from your team and ward vision of counter gank paths, ward on rune or you guys have rune control, and either a ward behind tower, vision of tower, or far enough away from tower that a tp can't save whoever you're trying to kill. If all those conditions aren't met in pubs then ganking is a waste of time, you're better off free farming and last hitting towers. That being said, madman is actually an extremely strong hero for a carry to ks with, lots of mobility and a good slow (god forbid you lvled his ult before 10). You shouldn't be involved in large 5v5 team fights though, just 2v2 skirmishes that are actually ganks, I doubt what your team did was ganking though. They were probably just wondering around the enemy forest with no wards and no idea what's waiting for them praying to god that they find a single person. Show nested quote +I figure that in pubs, the fastest way to farm is not to last hit creeps but to kill the feeders on the enemy team. That is so wrong it hurts, static free farm rapes running around the map hunting down newbies with very very few exceptions.
Yeah pretty much how i imagined it to be, gank when u have an opportunity but else farm. Damn need to get my rating up a little bit so i can play with people who get it.
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EPT
