• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 18:08
CET 00:08
KST 08:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !8Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
When will we find out if there are more tournament ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1:
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle screp: Command line app to parse SC rep files [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Mechabellum Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1192 users

Starcraft 2 ranking, how good is bad and etc.

Blogs > Spieltor
Post a Reply
Spieltor
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
327 Posts
March 11 2012 00:47 GMT
#1
You're (insert rank here), you suck! We all hear these words. We even see it in threads like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319625
.

Well today I want to analyze and really dissect what good and bad play is, as well as the fallacy of stating people in leagues below GM are "bad".

For some history, we can examine the past replays and VODs of actual "pro" players. Looking back at people like Idra or nestea, for example, Season one saw a LOT of 2 base zerg past 15 minutes. The game was still young and thats okay. A lot of people these days would cite Idra's steady decline in the pro scene as the failure to grow as the game has grown, even though it's readily apparent that in the "macro" stage of the game, he still outclasses just about everyone. But in the early stages of sc2, Idra was using hydralisks vs tanks on high ground (yes, I saw that clip on youtube before it got buried), and was generally 2 basing for quite a while. Contrast it to today's standards, and you get a third base before 10 minutes in standard and before 7 minutes if T or P set the pace for a "macro oriented" game.

That's terrible, right? I mean, 2 base in 15 minutes as zerg. What is he a plat? No, the game was just less developed, or more accurately, the personal skill levels of everyone were less developed. In order to demonstrate what I call the "Skill Entropy Level", I'll provide a nice picture.

[image loading]

let's assume that the Red Ring for Protoss and the Black Ring for Zerg have near equal win rates vs each other.

In this case, the Protoss will spend more time trying to execute this build better and micro better with it to try to increase their win rate, instead of scrapping it completely and trying to go for a different build, the blue ring. The concept is "if it isn't broken, don't fix it". I think this may also be a reasonable explanation for what many perceive as Idra's "failure to adapt". Of course, this isn't completely true, as metagame would never progress if people didn't push the limits, however, when something does work, there's a large resistance in the individual to try something new. that's why it took so long for zerg to figure out infestors. that's also why it took so long for protoss to figure out immortals. Both infestors and immortals had the same problem; they weren't used because they were considered subpar. After a buff, people start trying to use them, and then realized they were actually good units. There were actually Protosses complaining about the fact that immortals would run around aimlessly behind their army, even though the design of the immortal was to be in front and soak damage along with zealots, at least in concept, and that their complaints could be fixed with micro and better positioning. The range buff was mostly aimed against 1-1-1 anyway, to lower the kiting issue, the way phoenix were recently given an upgrade buff to make them kite mutas the way 1-1-1 could kite zealot/immortal pre +range nerf.

Essentially, people settle around a set of variables that work reliably enough. Entropy. The opposing effect is people pushing the metagame, and these people are the ones who become "pro" or at least GM. Lower level players rarely ask themselves "how could I win this fight even more by changing one little thing in the unit comp or how I use my current units. If a person is winning, they won't be looking for even more ways to do the same thing: win.

This can all be proven, not only by the relatively slow metagame growth of sc2, but also by the leagues themselves. Here is also where it can also be shown that people who claim league X and under is bad are really stating this without due thought and simply jumping on the bandwagon claims either for personal reasons of wanting to show disdain for that which they cannot achieve, or to make themselves feel more superior. Both plats and masters will say diamond is bad. This can only be accounted for by the previous statement holding true. If we compare current diamond play to Season one, we can see that macro, builds, and unit compositions are similar or actually better than Pro players had in season one (idra with hydralisks vs terran, for example). They actually try to execute 3 base zerg prior to 10 minutes, however. A step up from Pro Season 1 game mechanics.

In addition to this, when I was low diamond in season 3, I watched a few streams of supposed "masters", and I was appalled. There was one particular master player, who, in addition to getting high on stream with his bong, would play the very sloppy 2 base 15 minute zerg vs 2 base colossus. What really annoyed me was that his play was arguably as bad or worse than mine, yet he was master. There were two important things to note about this. First, he had obtained master in the previous season and was grandfathered in by the system. It was almost as if there was a plateau between all diamond and master players' skills in season 3, but some people retained masters because all the diamond were busy taking down each others' MMRs, leaving the master players relatively immune to the possibility of demotion. For an example of this, we can return to the master individual 2 basing protoss. One particular game, between him and another "master" involved two nearly mined out mains, and only one expansion for Zerg and Protoss. For one of the very last fights in the middle, the protoss had 1 colossus, 1 stalker , and 1 sentry, and the Zerg player, the one mentioned doing drugs on stream, left about 9 roaches to die on a field of force fields rather than simply micro them back and wait for the fields to drop so that he could move forward and kill the coloss with ease. Even with this kind of obvious management mistake and poor macro abilities, he still managed to stay master level the entire season. This player has actually stopped playing completely due to the rise in skill level and the fact that they've gotten demoted. We can actually see this on sc2ranks. Many who lived as master players in earlier seasons are being demoted, and a lot of those people quit playing completely because they could not grow with everyone else, and have lost their e-peen position.

The current metagame isnt even close to ending yet. I've got some surprise maneuvers for breaking a turtling terran who is economically behind without actually needing brood lords. It took a lot of fighting with the supply inefficient roach hydra corruptor to figure out how to actually fight an army that tries to base itself around early colossus with lings. Will these work against gm? I'm not sure. But my zvp winrate has turned around so fast that I can't believe how formulaic it has become to beat them. I almost never lose a marine-tank zvt. I'm a currently rising Master level player, but prior to getting the MMR needed to placement match me into master even with a loss, I went in and out of master three times in a single season.

People who have left the game for a while have come back and been demoted many leagues, or struggled to stay in their league or one lower. People, who were master based on good build execution and a lack of actual game knowledge, have gotten the demote boot as players who try to learn and grow are superseding their abilities.

If anything, more than ever, the ranks of sc2 are very representative of skill and abilities now. The talk of X league being "bad" may have been true in earlier seasons and precisely because build orders were more powerful than metagame knowledge, but diamond is nw made up of people who are actually competent. It has to speak for something that a large number of people, starting sc2 later than those who bought the game when it came out, have progressed in skill and understanding fast enough to eclipse these others. How can such people be "bad"?

*
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson
kerpal
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom2695 Posts
March 11 2012 00:59 GMT
#2
I think alot of people in the higher leagues will consider their own league bad. for example i'm in plat and as you say, i was diamond previously, although my demotion is possibly motivated by 6 months of inactivity!

in my opinion, plat MUST be bad, because i'm at the top of it, i play maybe 6 games a week, don't bother to analyse my reps and don't really know detailed build orders or timings (although obviously i have an idea of how i'd like to play and i try to scout what he's doing!)

i know that my play is bad, so if the matchmaking is working, i know that i'm playing other people who are probably also not great...
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
March 11 2012 02:47 GMT
#3
pushing the metagame or punishing the metagame was how i finally took the leap to get to masters last season. I was around top 8 diamond with about 63% win rate vs protoss and zerg. however my terran was like 40%. It was on one of those days were you get like 20 terrans in a row. after the 3rd terran 2 rax expoing me and crushing my 1 gate fe. I decided to metagame every terran by 2 gate expoing (my own build order) it gets the nexus slightly later stalker - gateway - nexus but the gateway finishes so much earlier that you are able to have twice as many units out when he attacks you with his fucking two rax you crush it and then win the game cause you are just so far ahead you can tech straight to collosus without anyother units. when he does his follow 4 rax you have a much bigger army because of collosus so you crush that to. and then kill him.
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
21:00
Best Games of Starcraft
SHIN vs ByuN
Reynor vs Classic
TBD vs herO
Maru vs SHIN
TBD vs Classic
PiGStarcraft650
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft650
ProTech143
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 129
Mong 21
NaDa 8
Dota 2
PGG 96
Counter-Strike
Foxcn151
Other Games
Grubby5545
FrodaN1253
Liquid`Hasu249
C9.Mang0177
B2W.Neo113
Trikslyr38
ZombieGrub30
Liquid`Ken18
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta69
• RyuSc2 58
• Hupsaiya 57
• musti20045 53
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 42
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22060
• WagamamaTV914
League of Legends
• Doublelift3078
Other Games
• imaqtpie1698
• Scarra335
• Shiphtur158
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
10h 53m
WardiTV 2025
11h 53m
Spirit vs Cure
Reynor vs MaxPax
SHIN vs TBD
Solar vs herO
Classic vs TBD
SC Evo League
13h 23m
Ladder Legends
19h 53m
BSL 21
20h 53m
Sziky vs Dewalt
eOnzErG vs Cross
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 10h
Ladder Legends
1d 17h
BSL 21
1d 20h
StRyKeR vs TBD
Bonyth vs TBD
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Offline Finals
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 1
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.