• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:06
CEST 19:06
KST 02:06
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher Who will win EWC 2025? Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Pro gamer house photos BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL Soulkey Muta Micro Map?
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
[MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 785 users

Starcraft 2 ranking, how good is bad and etc.

Blogs > Spieltor
Post a Reply
Spieltor
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
327 Posts
March 11 2012 00:47 GMT
#1
You're (insert rank here), you suck! We all hear these words. We even see it in threads like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319625
.

Well today I want to analyze and really dissect what good and bad play is, as well as the fallacy of stating people in leagues below GM are "bad".

For some history, we can examine the past replays and VODs of actual "pro" players. Looking back at people like Idra or nestea, for example, Season one saw a LOT of 2 base zerg past 15 minutes. The game was still young and thats okay. A lot of people these days would cite Idra's steady decline in the pro scene as the failure to grow as the game has grown, even though it's readily apparent that in the "macro" stage of the game, he still outclasses just about everyone. But in the early stages of sc2, Idra was using hydralisks vs tanks on high ground (yes, I saw that clip on youtube before it got buried), and was generally 2 basing for quite a while. Contrast it to today's standards, and you get a third base before 10 minutes in standard and before 7 minutes if T or P set the pace for a "macro oriented" game.

That's terrible, right? I mean, 2 base in 15 minutes as zerg. What is he a plat? No, the game was just less developed, or more accurately, the personal skill levels of everyone were less developed. In order to demonstrate what I call the "Skill Entropy Level", I'll provide a nice picture.

[image loading]

let's assume that the Red Ring for Protoss and the Black Ring for Zerg have near equal win rates vs each other.

In this case, the Protoss will spend more time trying to execute this build better and micro better with it to try to increase their win rate, instead of scrapping it completely and trying to go for a different build, the blue ring. The concept is "if it isn't broken, don't fix it". I think this may also be a reasonable explanation for what many perceive as Idra's "failure to adapt". Of course, this isn't completely true, as metagame would never progress if people didn't push the limits, however, when something does work, there's a large resistance in the individual to try something new. that's why it took so long for zerg to figure out infestors. that's also why it took so long for protoss to figure out immortals. Both infestors and immortals had the same problem; they weren't used because they were considered subpar. After a buff, people start trying to use them, and then realized they were actually good units. There were actually Protosses complaining about the fact that immortals would run around aimlessly behind their army, even though the design of the immortal was to be in front and soak damage along with zealots, at least in concept, and that their complaints could be fixed with micro and better positioning. The range buff was mostly aimed against 1-1-1 anyway, to lower the kiting issue, the way phoenix were recently given an upgrade buff to make them kite mutas the way 1-1-1 could kite zealot/immortal pre +range nerf.

Essentially, people settle around a set of variables that work reliably enough. Entropy. The opposing effect is people pushing the metagame, and these people are the ones who become "pro" or at least GM. Lower level players rarely ask themselves "how could I win this fight even more by changing one little thing in the unit comp or how I use my current units. If a person is winning, they won't be looking for even more ways to do the same thing: win.

This can all be proven, not only by the relatively slow metagame growth of sc2, but also by the leagues themselves. Here is also where it can also be shown that people who claim league X and under is bad are really stating this without due thought and simply jumping on the bandwagon claims either for personal reasons of wanting to show disdain for that which they cannot achieve, or to make themselves feel more superior. Both plats and masters will say diamond is bad. This can only be accounted for by the previous statement holding true. If we compare current diamond play to Season one, we can see that macro, builds, and unit compositions are similar or actually better than Pro players had in season one (idra with hydralisks vs terran, for example). They actually try to execute 3 base zerg prior to 10 minutes, however. A step up from Pro Season 1 game mechanics.

In addition to this, when I was low diamond in season 3, I watched a few streams of supposed "masters", and I was appalled. There was one particular master player, who, in addition to getting high on stream with his bong, would play the very sloppy 2 base 15 minute zerg vs 2 base colossus. What really annoyed me was that his play was arguably as bad or worse than mine, yet he was master. There were two important things to note about this. First, he had obtained master in the previous season and was grandfathered in by the system. It was almost as if there was a plateau between all diamond and master players' skills in season 3, but some people retained masters because all the diamond were busy taking down each others' MMRs, leaving the master players relatively immune to the possibility of demotion. For an example of this, we can return to the master individual 2 basing protoss. One particular game, between him and another "master" involved two nearly mined out mains, and only one expansion for Zerg and Protoss. For one of the very last fights in the middle, the protoss had 1 colossus, 1 stalker , and 1 sentry, and the Zerg player, the one mentioned doing drugs on stream, left about 9 roaches to die on a field of force fields rather than simply micro them back and wait for the fields to drop so that he could move forward and kill the coloss with ease. Even with this kind of obvious management mistake and poor macro abilities, he still managed to stay master level the entire season. This player has actually stopped playing completely due to the rise in skill level and the fact that they've gotten demoted. We can actually see this on sc2ranks. Many who lived as master players in earlier seasons are being demoted, and a lot of those people quit playing completely because they could not grow with everyone else, and have lost their e-peen position.

The current metagame isnt even close to ending yet. I've got some surprise maneuvers for breaking a turtling terran who is economically behind without actually needing brood lords. It took a lot of fighting with the supply inefficient roach hydra corruptor to figure out how to actually fight an army that tries to base itself around early colossus with lings. Will these work against gm? I'm not sure. But my zvp winrate has turned around so fast that I can't believe how formulaic it has become to beat them. I almost never lose a marine-tank zvt. I'm a currently rising Master level player, but prior to getting the MMR needed to placement match me into master even with a loss, I went in and out of master three times in a single season.

People who have left the game for a while have come back and been demoted many leagues, or struggled to stay in their league or one lower. People, who were master based on good build execution and a lack of actual game knowledge, have gotten the demote boot as players who try to learn and grow are superseding their abilities.

If anything, more than ever, the ranks of sc2 are very representative of skill and abilities now. The talk of X league being "bad" may have been true in earlier seasons and precisely because build orders were more powerful than metagame knowledge, but diamond is nw made up of people who are actually competent. It has to speak for something that a large number of people, starting sc2 later than those who bought the game when it came out, have progressed in skill and understanding fast enough to eclipse these others. How can such people be "bad"?

*
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson
kerpal
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom2695 Posts
March 11 2012 00:59 GMT
#2
I think alot of people in the higher leagues will consider their own league bad. for example i'm in plat and as you say, i was diamond previously, although my demotion is possibly motivated by 6 months of inactivity!

in my opinion, plat MUST be bad, because i'm at the top of it, i play maybe 6 games a week, don't bother to analyse my reps and don't really know detailed build orders or timings (although obviously i have an idea of how i'd like to play and i try to scout what he's doing!)

i know that my play is bad, so if the matchmaking is working, i know that i'm playing other people who are probably also not great...
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
March 11 2012 02:47 GMT
#3
pushing the metagame or punishing the metagame was how i finally took the leap to get to masters last season. I was around top 8 diamond with about 63% win rate vs protoss and zerg. however my terran was like 40%. It was on one of those days were you get like 20 terrans in a row. after the 3rd terran 2 rax expoing me and crushing my 1 gate fe. I decided to metagame every terran by 2 gate expoing (my own build order) it gets the nexus slightly later stalker - gateway - nexus but the gateway finishes so much earlier that you are able to have twice as many units out when he attacks you with his fucking two rax you crush it and then win the game cause you are just so far ahead you can tech straight to collosus without anyother units. when he does his follow 4 rax you have a much bigger army because of collosus so you crush that to. and then kill him.
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Online Event
16:00
PSC2L June 2025
CranKy Ducklings163
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 435
StarCraft: Brood War
Barracks 1616
EffOrt 1183
Mini 806
firebathero 450
actioN 445
zelot 277
BeSt 189
Larva 127
Mind 107
Hyun 80
[ Show more ]
Sharp 44
Shinee 41
Aegong 37
Sacsri 20
JulyZerg 18
ajuk12(nOOB) 17
Terrorterran 15
Shine 10
ivOry 3
Stormgate
BeoMulf160
Dota 2
syndereN916
League of Legends
Grubby4254
Dendi925
Counter-Strike
fl0m1572
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor542
Other Games
Hui .300
B2W.Neo229
KnowMe142
Skadoodle122
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1690
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 11
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 8
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3053
• WagamamaTV413
• Ler119
Other Games
• Shiphtur307
Upcoming Events
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
54m
Esports World Cup
1d 16h
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
2 days
Esports World Cup
3 days
Esports World Cup
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 ACS Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.