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On February 15 2012 19:01 IcemanAsi wrote:
The Balance discussion here might be irrelevant.
Depending on how the damage code is written it could be literally impossible to implement your suggestion with the current damage model.Right now units have base damage and an additional damage against one type of enemy, your'e suggesting having base damage minus damage against one type of enemy.
Reprogramming the damage model could actually create some major bugs as it isn't simply a variable change.
From a code design point of view, the function is actually the same:
If/when UNIT is PSIONIC then DAMAGE + (N)
if/when UNIT is MASSIVE then DAMAGE + (-N)
Anyway I seriously doubt Blizzard's designers had not in mind extensibility, which is a basic system design principle.
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i can see what everyones saying i really can, maybe if i could devote my time to sc2 and get my ability to this level i could throw in some of my two cents into what it DOES mean. Im pretty sure blizz didnt just go. nerfty nerf nerf, im almost positive they would have tried and tested this to death with gamers before even releasing the notes. They know how you all get. Im going to all out say that this response is just like the last 10. Somethings in, somethings out. Makes game MORE interesting to watch. Im sure the pros will figure something out with this for and against
From a code design point of view, the function is actually the same:
If/when UNIT is MASSIVE then DAMAGE + (N)
if/when UNIT is MASSIVE then DAMAGE + (-N)
Anyway I seriously doubt Blizzard's designers had not in mind extensibility, which a basic system design principle.
as a probability programmer in my youth and the small app/game enthusiast now, it isnt as simple as that. depending on the friend/inheritance of the overall objects you might find strange behaviour in other things, which the proGRAMers have possibly found out. As a coder, i tried to shift a simple balance thing in one of my games, created another 10 bugs or made it ridiculous over time. Im sure sc2's code is the like of which i have never seen.
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Blizzard really needs to do this, for all the reasons suggested.
It's a shame they couldn't figure it out on their own.
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On February 15 2012 08:00 GDbushido wrote:
people (myself included) have been suggesting this nerf to snipe for months
now that qxc says it people actually listen
THE FAME BABY
So?
Do you care more about it being your proposal than it being implemented?
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On February 15 2012 21:06 StatixEx wrote:i can see what everyones saying i really can, maybe if i could devote my time to sc2 and get my ability to this level i could throw in some of my two cents into what it DOES mean. Im pretty sure blizz didnt just go. nerfty nerf nerf, im almost positive they would have tried and tested this to death with gamers before even releasing the notes. They know how you all get. Im going to all out say that this response is just like the last 10. Somethings in, somethings out. Makes game MORE interesting to watch. Im sure the pros will figure something out with this for and against Show nested quote +From a code design point of view, the function is actually the same:
If/when UNIT is MASSIVE then DAMAGE + (N)
if/when UNIT is MASSIVE then DAMAGE + (-N)
Anyway I seriously doubt Blizzard's designers had not in mind extensibility, which a basic system design principle. as a probability programmer in my youth and the small app/game enthusiast now, it isnt as simple as that. depending on the friend/inheritance of the overall objects you might find strange behaviour in other things, which the proGRAMers have possibly found out. As a coder, i tried to shift a simple balance thing in one of my games, created another 10 bugs or made it ridiculous over time. Im sure sc2's code is the like of which i have never seen.
Yes, it is as simple as that. It is still just an elementary arithmetic addition (If you want to subtract make variable negative).
You cannot bring your amateur tetris-making experience into this case because blizzards designers are Professional, and I am pretty sure they are very good. If you add a minimal change and create 10 bugs, then your design is just horrible. Also, blizzard doesn't just release new patches without working a previous good set of test to detect errors. They don't just make changes and expect there are no bugs lol
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Seriously you'd think that all of a sudden Ghosts became useless entirely. They still will kill BLs (with the same effectiveness that they were used on ultras before) and are now even better against Infestors. And the BS of a tech switch is just that. BS. You make ghosts for Infestor/BL and then make Marauders when they switch to Ultras. Just scan any zerg base about 45 seconds after the battle and you'll see the tech path (which gives you plenty if time to react BTW).
That's not the point of the post, I know. But why aren't you mentioning the fact that doing that is a buff for the Ghost no matter what way you say it?
Sniping bio is pretty useless even pre-patch and still takes 2 shots to kill a reaper even before the nerf. Reapers are left with 5 health still after a snipe currently. Really now, I know you would like to see the ghost rush become practical, but to sit here and talk about it like it's any different now than it was before is ridiculous.
Really the only loss in the nerf that changes anything is now it no longer 1 shots a baneling. That is really the only part of the OP that I like. The idea of ghosts vs banelings I think is cool, but really as long as you have marines in front of the ghosts sniping banelings is still cost efficient. I wouldn't mind seeing it be 35 damage +15 vs Psionic for this alone, but again you're sitting there saying about how 'useless' it is now with the patch.
What you're really asking for is a buff because you want your ghost rush to work. Really don't try and disguise it behind talks of 'balance' and all that other stuff because that's all a farce and you know it. Fact of the matter is that this balance change affects 6 units (Ultra, Broodlord, Infestor, Ghost, Baneling, Zergling). Other than that, everything else stays the same.
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Nobody should listen to Terrans (especially qxc is so very non biased about this) or Zergs about this matter. Ask the Toss, they hardly care.
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imho ghosts were best-buy units prepatch... they were atleast decent against almost everything...
I can't think of unit that has more versatility than ghost... (cloak, snipe, emp against energy and shield, nukes, range, dmg, extra dmg against light)
personally I think ghosts would be used in tvz and tvp even if you remove snipe...
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100% agree, these changes in their current state will really disrupt the usage of Ghosts in many situations. I really hope blizzard changes their Ghost nerf in some way.
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There is literally nothing i the op i disagree with, and i allways find something i don't like in a balance thread.
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Good point, QXC! I think this change won't get anybody angry in relation to the proposed patch, unless Blizzard thinks it's "ugly" to make attack modifications negative.
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I figured there would be serious fallout from this...It does seem like a hard nerf, but I can lie...kind of makes me smile a little inside to see Terrans squirm over this. In any case, it probably does need to be nerfed a little less, but then again I dunno, I haven't played with it or seen good people play with it....Seems like whining won't really help until Blizzard has seen some evidence. For instance, in the MVP v. Nestea finals where like 20 broodlords evaporated because of OP snipe...that must have been pretty solid evidence because now they are doing something. About damn time...we'll have to see if the pros can adapt.
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On February 15 2012 04:48 Johnny_Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:39 Gheed wrote:On February 15 2012 04:35 Johnny_Vegas wrote:On February 15 2012 04:27 Gheed wrote:
Snipe is a spell, not an attack. It doesn't have to follow the x + y to z formula. They can just write out on the spell description that "The Ghost snipes a single, biological target for 45 damage. Does 25 less damage to massive units. This ability can be queued for multiple instant snipes." or something to the effect. The semantic argument is the least persuasive one for not changing the ghost in the way qxc describes. It doesn't matter what's written on the spell description, as that is not what the SC2 engine uses, that's just flavor text for the player. I'm saying that until someone really familiar with the SC2 editor explains otherwise, its a possibility that Blizz can't make a change like qxc suggests because of a limitation in the engine. Considering no such "subtraction" damage yet exists in the game, I think its a very real possibility. Also there is no bonus damage in the game that only affects non-massive, or for that matter, non-air, etc... You are pretty naive if you think the SC2 engine can't handle -25 against massive. Go play a tower defense or something, look at all the damage types they have. Hey I didn't say it was impossible, just was questioning it. And you'll be happy to know that I fired up the Map editor to figure it out myself, and YES it is possible to make Ghost's Snipe do -25 to massive. I tested it in the unit tester, worked fine. Cool, I just wanted to make sure, but thanks for calling me naive for not knowing the intricacies of the map editor, and no I don't play tower defense maps sorry.
This guy went and tested it in map editor.
CAN BE DONE.
Case closed.
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Glad to finally hear a pro speak out. They generally keep quiet as it never really turns out well when they do speak up about balance. However, in this case I think its totally justified for a pro to speak out on the nerf. I also think its truly insane, the very fact that you have to use 2 snipes to kill a bane now is just ridiculous. You rarely have that much time if the bane has centrifugal hooks.
Great post QXC, I am NOT a pro by any means and all your points were all of my main concerns when I read the patch as well. It really only confirms my suspicions that Blizz just meets once a month for about 5 mins to talk about balance, I'm starting to wonder if David Kim et al ever even play this game anymore.....
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100% agree with all what qxc said.
great writeup btw - 5 stars all the way to qxc
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50 base damage for snipe is too much, as it will 2 shot zealots, other than that I agree. (I'm Terran)
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It seems a lot of people are forgetting that ghost not only have an auto attack that does damage but also has the game-changing EMP on top of that. And now Terrans want to buff their snipe ability as well? :s
There is nothing wrong with having a unit perform a certain role very well instead of it being a general all round unit. Terran has more than enough of those as is. If you are going against a lot of spellcasters/units with shields or if you want to drop nukes then you should make some ghosts. If you don't need that role filled than don't build the unit that fills that role...
+ Show Spoiler +Stop nuthugging E-celebrities
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So you stil want bonus damage to everything else you want a ghost buff? I agree this might not be right but this would make it worse.
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EPT
