On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote:
I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.

And I'm zerg.

simply correct, Sir ! +1

Firenza

United States51 Posts

February 15 2012 15:12 GMT

#442

I agree completely with the approach in the OP. Blizzard/David Kim absolutely need to address how this changes TvT and TvBanelings and give some sort of rationale. Some things to consider:

45 damage (-20 to Massive): Everything stays the same except Brood Lord/Ultralisk. Infestor's still can't be 2-shotted, but I'm not sure that's a necessary buff since A) They're still vulnerable to EMP and B) a slightly injured infestor (from tank splash or mis-micro) can be 2-shotted.

50 damage (-25 to Massive): Does this 2-shot zealots? If it does, that's a problem that's not worth the buff of 2-shotting infestors. If 1 point of shield regenerates that's fixed, but it's still an extra 5 damage in this situation and the TvT situations that's probably not necessary.

DoubleReed

United States4130 Posts

February 15 2012 15:15 GMT

#443

I actually think that snipe should only target ground units. The +psionic makes the ability completely redundant with emp. Without hitting air it would gives ghosts only limited ability against broods (in the form of nukes, basically) but still effective against ultras. It would also get rid of the silly instasniping of overseers.

And it could actually be flavorfully justified instead of +psionic which just makes no logical sense.

Glaceau

Wales333 Posts

February 15 2012 15:24 GMT

#444

they are way too strong against zerg and while it might not be the best solution its a good band-aid for now

kubiks

France1328 Posts

February 15 2012 15:45 GMT

#445

I have to agree with QXC, not only because I am in his fanclub, but because he's pretty right. While nerfing ghost vs zerg T3 was maybe needed ( as a zerg I personnaly want the broodlord to die, I hate to have to do this lame unit), I would like snipe just do dmg to light and psionic units (and less to the other). It would be more "roleplay", and anyway except T3 zerg units and corrputers, most of the units you want to snipe are light.
I really agree on the fact that this change is killing the usage of ghost in TvT (your snipe deals more dmg to...ghosts, yeah!), and I doubt this will make the ZvT match-up better to watch (huge air are soooo untrertaining -_-), I would just rely on better maps to avoid to let the terran have the possibility to split the map in 2 (shakuras plateau get out).

achew

France86 Posts

February 15 2012 15:46 GMT

#446

I agree with qxc, at least snipe still one shot Changelings.

SCdinner

Canada516 Posts

February 15 2012 16:00 GMT

#447

I do not like this change because it makes snipe redundant. If the spell is only good against casters now then why not just use emp and hit them all at once? It may be slightly better against dark templars but once again emp might be more useful because it reviles them.

Umpteen

United Kingdom1570 Posts

February 15 2012 16:07 GMT

#448

What's stopping me agreeing with the OP is that, right now, there doesn't seem to be enough of a penalty for overmaking ghosts - in TvZ anyway. High-tech units ought to need to be used carefully (Too many broodlords, not enough corruptors; too many colossi, not enough stalkers). But ghosts in TvZ are so good, against almost everything, that it's almost always better to have more of them. The 1.4.3 change puts ghosts in the same 'judicious use' category as other high-tech units. Overmake them and you'll be vulnerable.

I'm not going to defend the exact numerical change, but I can see a justification for making ghosts less of an end-game 'safe option no matter what'.

MythicRule

51 Posts

February 15 2012 16:07 GMT

#449

I was reading this thinking yeah hes right these are fair points. Until he proposed 50 base damage :/ What a typical Terran lol

SgtPepper

United States568 Posts

February 15 2012 16:17 GMT

#450

In qxc we trust. Good post, i agree.

Zorkmid

4410 Posts

February 15 2012 16:20 GMT

#451

I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:

marine
marauder
reaper
zealot
baneling
hydralisk
mutalisk
infestor
corruptor
broodlord
ultralisk
workers

Hidden_MotiveS

Canada2562 Posts

February 15 2012 16:21 GMT

#452

I didn't like ghosts being that strong in the first place. Especially not after people learned they could use their scroll wheels to kill off entire armies with them.

Charger

United States2405 Posts

February 15 2012 16:25 GMT

#453

On February 16 2012 01:20 Zorkmid wrote:
I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:

marine
marauder
reaper
zealot
baneling
hydralisk
mutalisk
infestor
corruptor
broodlord
ultralisk
workers

Less regular is better than never.

Just cause we don't see it a ton today doesn't mean we won't tomorrow.

Neurosis

United States893 Posts

February 15 2012 16:27 GMT

#454

I just think they need to quit changing the game. Every time they patch they take away credibility for this game being a "sport". They didn't make basketball goals taller in the NBA just because Shaq is freakishly large.

rtem

Finland54 Posts

February 15 2012 16:38 GMT

#455

Personally I'd rather have the post patch ghosts in game rather than the new one even with the zerg tier 3 problems and I say this as a zerg. I did cry a single zerg tear every now and then seeing whole bunch of broods go down but this nerf is just too much.

Dudelida

Norway3 Posts

February 15 2012 16:46 GMT

#456

"Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance."
... EVERYTHING relies on the current balance, but you will adapt as you have with every single change that has been made thus far. Sure I can agree on that this might be a bit much, but terrans, like every other race, will adapt to the changes, comming or present.
Saying you do not like a change because of what you have not seen pro players do yet with the current settings when the change adresses game balance is nothing short of ridiculous to me.

We never really got to see Tanks being used in innovative ways to take advantage of that ridiculous 50 damage to EVERYTHING when they still were that powerful, it was changed because it was needed, people whined about it at that time too, It will be ok in the end!

Zorkmid

4410 Posts

February 15 2012 16:47 GMT

#457

On February 16 2012 01:27 Neurosis wrote:
I just think they need to quit changing the game. Every time they patch they take away credibility for this game being a "sport". They didn't make basketball goals taller in the NBA just because Shaq is freakishly large.

But they do make rule changes all the time. Handchecking turned the league from a big man dominated game to a small man dominated game. They've also added the 24 second clock, and the 3 point line. Widened the key area. You ALWAYS need to adjust rules as time goes on. This goes for SC2.

What we really need to stop changing is the game that we play as an RTS e-Sport. I think that's a closer analogy.

MafiaCheese

United States87 Posts

February 15 2012 16:58 GMT

#458

Seems kind of odd that they want snipe to be an Anti-Psionic ability when emp serves that purpose already /shrug

antilyon

Brazil2546 Posts

February 15 2012 17:04 GMT

#459

On February 16 2012 01:46 Dudelida wrote:
"Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance."
... EVERYTHING relies on the current balance, but you will adapt as you have with every single change that has been made thus far. Sure I can agree on that this might be a bit much, but terrans, like every other race, will adapt to the changes, comming or present.
Saying you do not like a change because of what you have not seen pro players do yet with the current settings when the change adresses game balance is nothing short of ridiculous to me.

We never really got to see Tanks being used in innovative ways to take advantage of that ridiculous 50 damage to EVERYTHING when they still were that powerful, it was changed because it was needed, people whined about it at that time too, It will be ok in the end!

Ghost nerf whining isn't about what you had seen, it's about what you will never have a chance to see if it goes through.

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

February 15 2012 17:19 GMT

#460

You missed the point completely.

I can't say it better than qxc, but as he says in the OP:

On February 15 2012 03:10 qxc wrote:
Have we seen these situations before? Not really. Maybe once? Maybe almost never, but the point is that if Blizzard changes Ghosts in the proposed way we won't. Not now, not ever. This change kills potential innovation and interesting play. But the ghost vs. Tier 3 Zerg relationship can be fixed while keeping the ghost in tact in other situations.