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The Ghost Nerf is Being Done Wrong - Page 25

Blogs > qxc
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Soliloquist
Profile Joined March 2011
Korea (South)89 Posts
February 15 2012 22:07 GMT
#481
with this i think 25 was pretty damn big nerf. sure they are op against zerg (im a zerg player)

but 25? really? i think 30 would have been fine. maybe 30 +10 against either bio or psionic would have been better.
hatespam
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Romania161 Posts
February 15 2012 22:07 GMT
#482
i agree 110% was thinking of writing the exact same thing, but its always best when some1 famous puts it out
ask, and you shall have asked
Yoduh
Profile Joined August 2010
United States216 Posts
February 15 2012 22:12 GMT
#483
On February 16 2012 03:29 tripper688 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 02:51 Yoduh wrote:
On February 16 2012 01:20 Zorkmid wrote:
I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:


marine
marauder
reaper
zealot
baneling
hydralisk
mutalisk
infestor
corruptor
broodlord
ultralisk
workers


this is what i was thinking while reading the post. so not counting broodlords and ultralisks which is what the patch very much intended to not have snipe be used for, you're left with 3 units ghosts would regularly snipe pre-nerf -
baneling
mutalisk
infestor

one of which, is still viable to snipe. the list doesn't look as outrageously stacked now that all the unnecessary fluff is taken away doesn't it?

there's 2 main arguments of qxc's which are inherently flawed.
1. "nerfing snipe is like nerfing marines". this is a straw man argument. it's much easier to make an argument against a 50% marine damage nerf simply because marines are NOT ghosts! marines only have their base damage and a stim move. ghosts besides having snipe have cloak, nukes, and emp. that's a lot more utility than your average marine and still makes ghosts a viable production unit for certain situations including sniping infestors and templars. this argument of qxc's was not so much an argument against a ghost nerf, more than it actually was against a marine nerf, which only lead to confuse and mislead his audience.

2. sniping any other unit is "innovation". No, it's not, and if it is, it's not very good innovation. there's a lot better ways to kill a marauder or zealot than sniping it. Let's imagine though that there are games where possibly sniping zealots and marauders is a good idea. Out of 100 games how many do you think that scenario would present itself? 1? 2? maybe 5 at most and if we're generous? Out of 100 games of TvZ how many would it be a good idea to snipe broodlords/ultralisks? 70? 80? if not all?

Balancing a game is not a perfect science. But anyone can see that the move to nerf snipe provides MORE balance than less, even though there is a tradeoff where we significantly balance the TvZ matchup but lose a few "innovative" scenarios.

So in conclusion, myself personally, as a protoss player, I find the nerf to be fair and find qxc's argument to be both misleading and flawed
.


As a random player, I'd have to say your argument is flawed because of the fact that nothing supports the idea that it's late game ghost play breaking TvZ right now. Heck, late game TvZ isn't even broken, not if you actually look at overall play and not just a handful of games by literally the best couple of players in the world.


to implement a solution you first have to understand the problem. many people including the OP understand snipe was a problem in late game TvZ, and discussions so far have been focused on "how" not "if" snipe should have been nerfed. I never said TvZ was broken or that Z could never beat T, but i think it's well understood that the balance in the matchup was tilted.
mDuo13
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States307 Posts
February 15 2012 22:12 GMT
#484
I mean, if Blizzard doesn't want to rate it as "50 with -25 to massive" because they don't want to give minus modifiers, I think a lot of people would accept "Doesn't work against massive" as an alternative nerf that's still not as far-reaching as changing the way Ghosts interact with a bunch of other units. I mean, there are already a bunch of comparable spells and abilities - Marauder stun, force fields, Phoenix lift - that don't work on Massive units. It makes flavor sense, too, like, "What, you're gonna shoot that enormous rampaging monster in the eye with your tiny little gun?" (Actually it makes flavor sense as qxc templated it, too.)

I'm not jumping on the "qxc for Balance Designer" bandwagon, though. I love you, Kevin, but you're definitely Terran-biased, and let's be honest: Blizzard doesn't need anyone else T-favored working for them. =P
Kaleidos
Profile Joined October 2010
Italy172 Posts
February 15 2012 22:42 GMT
#485
Supporting the OP. They could use " 25+ 25 non massive" if using the negative modifier is even a problem.
moregamethanSEGA
Profile Joined May 2011
United States76 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 23:07:28
February 15 2012 23:00 GMT
#486
QXC is 100% right, I have no doubt this is terrible from both a game creativity standpoint, and a balance standpoint. It's absurd to make a unit less effective against 90% of bio units in game when that is exactly its function - shoot bio units in the face and kill them. You are basically double nerfing the ghost based on the fact that you nerfed EMP to the point it cant hit more than one infestor, so now we have to use snipe.

Why don't you go ahead and nerf sentry force fields since they werent intended to be worker killing units, but with your warp prism buff NOW they commonly are. Innovation and creativity make the game better blizzard, at some point zergs will figure out way to catch ghosts out of positon, or force a base trade, or just remax on roaches/lings (which ghost are TERRIBLE against).

This part of the patch is pretty much last straw for me and most terrans. Blizzard, at one point you said 'the strength of terran come from the diversity of its units.' You are a liar.

Last time i check the only units we make are marines, mauraders, medivacs, tanks and vikings.

This is less than both other races in terms of standard play. We also cannot remax like the other races, so lategame, we are at EXTREME disadvantage once a gaint battle ends when both races are maxed, or close to max.

Like, honestly Blizzard, what am I spending gas on late game in every matchup besides rauders, tanks and upgrades... its a freakin joke. BC's... are a joke. Thors... are a joke. Banshees late game... are a joke. Vikings (unless they have voidray/broods)... are a joke. Ravens... (sorry everyone) are A JOKE. The only thing to be taken seriously was the ghost and now no longer.
Heroes live forever... but legends never die.
moregamethanSEGA
Profile Joined May 2011
United States76 Posts
February 15 2012 23:12 GMT
#487
On February 16 2012 07:12 mDuo13 wrote:
I mean, if Blizzard doesn't want to rate it as "50 with -25 to massive" because they don't want to give minus modifiers, I think a lot of people would accept "Doesn't work against massive" as an alternative nerf that's still not as far-reaching as changing the way Ghosts interact with a bunch of other units. I mean, there are already a bunch of comparable spells and abilities - Marauder stun, force fields, Phoenix lift - that don't work on Massive units. It makes flavor sense, too, like, "What, you're gonna shoot that enormous rampaging monster in the eye with your tiny little gun?" (Actually it makes flavor sense as qxc templated it, too.)

I'm not jumping on the "qxc for Balance Designer" bandwagon, though. I love you, Kevin, but you're definitely Terran-biased, and let's be honest: Blizzard doesn't need anyone else T-favored working for them. =P


Who is terran biased and works for blizzard again...?

Yeah, that's what I thought. Quiet - you agreeable, yet non agreeable... dude.
Heroes live forever... but legends never die.
infinitum
Profile Joined April 2011
United States83 Posts
February 15 2012 23:19 GMT
#488
If Blizzard goes through with this without even addressing why they disagree with qxc's logic, they are going to anger A LOT of people, myself included. They MUST at least explain their reasoning.
Everything you know was forged from the remnants of a supernova.
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
February 15 2012 23:48 GMT
#489
You know I have to say I like the idea of +psionic on snipe. All the caster units for each race, they all have the same tools: One utility, one anti-caster and one AOE. The thing about Snipe was that it was almost -never- used for anti-caster, it was used for smashing ultralisks which didn't even make any sense. I play zerg and i think ultralisks dont need to be so easy to counter.

Ghost: Snipe(anti caster), Emp (AOE), Cloak(Utility)
Templar: Feedback (anti caster), Archon(Utility), Storm (AOE)
Infestor: Fungal (AOE), Infested Terran(Utility), Neural (Anti-caster)

However 25 is too low, not because its a small number, but because snipe should 1-shot certain things, I think. I like 30, it lets you keep 1-shotting banelings. 30 base/45 psionic seems reasonable to me.

i dont like QXC's idea involving the massive tag. Snipe does have too much use compared to something like feedback and neural parasite, it should be more limited. But they got the math wrong, snipe currently lets ghosts excel in small engagements of small units as well and I think that's important to protect.
FreshZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
3 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 23:57:33
February 15 2012 23:55 GMT
#490
Although I see the concerns, I still believe the damage types of the attack are correct. Maybe the numbers are off a little, which will be fine tuned in a later patch most likely. I forsee it maybe going to 35+15 to psionic which would be a little better.

Something that blizzard also might have taken into consideration is those FE ghost builds that basically raped zerg asap unless they caught it and all in countered in time. Banelings have 30hp, so 25 makes banelings work much better vs mass snipe ghosts early on in the game. Because as a zerg player, the only really viable unit to use to counter mass ghosts is roach, and that is pretty terrible.

PS- Why do ghosts have no size type? bio/psionic is fine, but every other caster and unit in the game is light, armored, or massive if i'm not mistaken. Anyone care to explain why?
fresh
Insomni7
Profile Joined June 2011
667 Posts
February 16 2012 00:03 GMT
#491
Absolutely right in every way. Ty qxc
Never Forget.
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
February 16 2012 00:23 GMT
#492
On February 16 2012 08:55 FreshZerg wrote:

PS- Why do ghosts have no size type? bio/psionic is fine, but every other caster and unit in the game is light, armored, or massive if i'm not mistaken. Anyone care to explain why?


Queens are the same.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
thrazznos
Profile Joined February 2012
1 Post
February 16 2012 00:38 GMT
#493
I am no pro terran player, but I don't think the damage of ghosts normal attack should be ignored. 20 Damage to light units is nothing to scoff at. Separating the list of units that snipe will do less damage to, Ghosts still do

excellent attack damage vs:
marine
reaper
zealot
baneling
hydralisk
mutalisk
workers

and now will be less effective against:

marauder
corruptor
broodlord
ultralisk
rOse_PedaL
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Korea (South)450 Posts
February 16 2012 00:49 GMT
#494
i agree!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ MKP HWAITING ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ
tripper688
Profile Joined January 2011
United States569 Posts
February 16 2012 01:54 GMT
#495
On February 16 2012 07:12 Yoduh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 03:29 tripper688 wrote:
On February 16 2012 02:51 Yoduh wrote:
On February 16 2012 01:20 Zorkmid wrote:
I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:


marine
marauder
reaper
zealot
baneling
hydralisk
mutalisk
infestor
corruptor
broodlord
ultralisk
workers


this is what i was thinking while reading the post. so not counting broodlords and ultralisks which is what the patch very much intended to not have snipe be used for, you're left with 3 units ghosts would regularly snipe pre-nerf -
baneling
mutalisk
infestor

one of which, is still viable to snipe. the list doesn't look as outrageously stacked now that all the unnecessary fluff is taken away doesn't it?

there's 2 main arguments of qxc's which are inherently flawed.
1. "nerfing snipe is like nerfing marines". this is a straw man argument. it's much easier to make an argument against a 50% marine damage nerf simply because marines are NOT ghosts! marines only have their base damage and a stim move. ghosts besides having snipe have cloak, nukes, and emp. that's a lot more utility than your average marine and still makes ghosts a viable production unit for certain situations including sniping infestors and templars. this argument of qxc's was not so much an argument against a ghost nerf, more than it actually was against a marine nerf, which only lead to confuse and mislead his audience.

2. sniping any other unit is "innovation". No, it's not, and if it is, it's not very good innovation. there's a lot better ways to kill a marauder or zealot than sniping it. Let's imagine though that there are games where possibly sniping zealots and marauders is a good idea. Out of 100 games how many do you think that scenario would present itself? 1? 2? maybe 5 at most and if we're generous? Out of 100 games of TvZ how many would it be a good idea to snipe broodlords/ultralisks? 70? 80? if not all?

Balancing a game is not a perfect science. But anyone can see that the move to nerf snipe provides MORE balance than less, even though there is a tradeoff where we significantly balance the TvZ matchup but lose a few "innovative" scenarios.

So in conclusion, myself personally, as a protoss player, I find the nerf to be fair and find qxc's argument to be both misleading and flawed
.


As a random player, I'd have to say your argument is flawed because of the fact that nothing supports the idea that it's late game ghost play breaking TvZ right now. Heck, late game TvZ isn't even broken, not if you actually look at overall play and not just a handful of games by literally the best couple of players in the world.


to implement a solution you first have to understand the problem. many people including the OP understand snipe was a problem in late game TvZ, and discussions so far have been focused on "how" not "if" snipe should have been nerfed. I never said TvZ was broken or that Z could never beat T, but i think it's well understood that the balance in the matchup was tilted.


If you have read some of the previous posts, you can see why I assert that snipe is not the issue with TvZ. The balance is tilted, ever so slightly because the terran edge in the early game is bigger than the zerg edge in the late game...minus the literal handful of players that can use mass ghost as effectively and efficiently as MVP. If every other Terran in the GSL could do that, sure that becomes an issue but when you basically balance Terran around the top 3 players of the race, I don't think that's legitimate. How many Zerg have DRG's mutalisk control? Do we balance mutas around DRG? How many Protoss had MC's blink and FF control? Did we balance stalkers and sentries around them? If they do have to change something about ghosts, I feel like taking the damage down to 35 with a +15 to psionic or w-e would be fine. No need to basically HALVE the damage output of the spell.
"Excuse me I gotta do some vacuuming really fast *vrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm*" Day[9]
weneedjello
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada10 Posts
February 16 2012 02:58 GMT
#496
couldnt agree more with this
Dbla08
Profile Joined March 2011
United States211 Posts
February 16 2012 05:01 GMT
#497
this whole thing is obv taken from a biased standpoint, im sry but ghosts need to not be able to counter everything zerg has, emp is still good tvp, although a bit harder to land now, and ghosts still rape ht/infestors in ridiculous fashion, and can still be used to snipe mutas if thats rly what ur trying to do (4 snipes/muta, trading 1/2 a ghosts energy for 100g/100m sounds pretty good.) im sry if you feel like you'll never be able to win again if terran gets nerfed again, but u need to quit being so blind and realize how badly it needs to be changed, perhaps they're not going about it perfectly but it will definately suffice (and it takes 1 less snipe to kill queens if it makes u feel better)
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 06:23:01
February 16 2012 06:22 GMT
#498
On February 16 2012 09:38 thrazznos wrote:
I am no pro terran player, but I don't think the damage of ghosts normal attack should be ignored. 20 Damage to light units is nothing to scoff at. Separating the list of units that snipe will do less damage to, Ghosts still do

excellent attack damage vs:
marine
reaper
zealot
baneling
hydralisk
mutalisk
workers

and now will be less effective against:

marauder
corruptor
broodlord
ultralisk


20 damage to a single unit at standard range and normal rof is plenty to scoff at when the thing doing it costs 200/100.

Personally I think the most elegant solution is to make it not castable on massive; blizzard is more likely to follow through with that than permit a minus modifier.
CarbonTwelve
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia525 Posts
February 16 2012 06:24 GMT
#499
On February 16 2012 15:22 Belisarius wrote:
20 damage to a single unit at standard range and normal rof is plenty to scoff at when the thing doing it costs 200/100.


Not when you compare to other casters that can't do any damage other than spells (HTs/Infestors).
Emperor_Earth
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States824 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 06:38:17
February 16 2012 06:37 GMT
#500
On February 16 2012 08:48 darkscream wrote:
You know I have to say I like the idea of +psionic on snipe. All the caster units for each race, they all have the same tools: One utility, one anti-caster and one AOE. The thing about Snipe was that it was almost -never- used for anti-caster, it was used for smashing ultralisks which didn't even make any sense. I play zerg and i think ultralisks dont need to be so easy to counter.

Ghost: Snipe(anti caster), Emp (AOE), Cloak(Utility)
Templar: Feedback (anti caster), Archon(Utility), Storm (AOE)
Infestor: Fungal (AOE), Infested Terran(Utility), Neural (Anti-caster)

However 25 is too low, not because its a small number, but because snipe should 1-shot certain things, I think. I like 30, it lets you keep 1-shotting banelings. 30 base/45 psionic seems reasonable to me.

i dont like QXC's idea involving the massive tag. Snipe does have too much use compared to something like feedback and neural parasite, it should be more limited. But they got the math wrong, snipe currently lets ghosts excel in small engagements of small units as well and I think that's important to protect.


So in your world... Fungals shouldn't root.
Fungals and Storms would only take out shields and not touch your life.
Infested Terrans would instead take your energy.
Infestors wouldn't burrow or move.
Ghosts and Infestors would move slower
What else am I missing?

It's a terrible idea to try to make all the races the same with the same units and same mechanics. The whole point of SC/SC2 vs AoE is the race asymmetry while still being balanced.
@Emperor_Earth ------- "Amat Victoria Curam."
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