EPTbut 25? really? i think 30 would have been fine. maybe 30 +10 against either bio or psionic would have been better.
The Ghost Nerf is Being Done Wrong - Page 25
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Soliloquist
Korea (South)89 Posts
but 25? really? i think 30 would have been fine. maybe 30 +10 against either bio or psionic would have been better. | ||
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hatespam
Romania161 Posts
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Yoduh
United States216 Posts
On February 16 2012 03:29 tripper688 wrote: As a random player, I'd have to say your argument is flawed because of the fact that nothing supports the idea that it's late game ghost play breaking TvZ right now. Heck, late game TvZ isn't even broken, not if you actually look at overall play and not just a handful of games by literally the best couple of players in the world. to implement a solution you first have to understand the problem. many people including the OP understand snipe was a problem in late game TvZ, and discussions so far have been focused on "how" not "if" snipe should have been nerfed. I never said TvZ was broken or that Z could never beat T, but i think it's well understood that the balance in the matchup was tilted. | ||
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mDuo13
United States307 Posts
I'm not jumping on the "qxc for Balance Designer" bandwagon, though. I love you, Kevin, but you're definitely Terran-biased, and let's be honest: Blizzard doesn't need anyone else T-favored working for them. =P | ||
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Kaleidos
Italy172 Posts
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moregamethanSEGA
United States76 Posts
Why don't you go ahead and nerf sentry force fields since they werent intended to be worker killing units, but with your warp prism buff NOW they commonly are. Innovation and creativity make the game better blizzard, at some point zergs will figure out way to catch ghosts out of positon, or force a base trade, or just remax on roaches/lings (which ghost are TERRIBLE against). This part of the patch is pretty much last straw for me and most terrans. Blizzard, at one point you said 'the strength of terran come from the diversity of its units.' You are a liar. Last time i check the only units we make are marines, mauraders, medivacs, tanks and vikings. This is less than both other races in terms of standard play. We also cannot remax like the other races, so lategame, we are at EXTREME disadvantage once a gaint battle ends when both races are maxed, or close to max. Like, honestly Blizzard, what am I spending gas on late game in every matchup besides rauders, tanks and upgrades... its a freakin joke. BC's... are a joke. Thors... are a joke. Banshees late game... are a joke. Vikings (unless they have voidray/broods)... are a joke. Ravens... (sorry everyone) are A JOKE. The only thing to be taken seriously was the ghost and now no longer. | ||
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moregamethanSEGA
United States76 Posts
On February 16 2012 07:12 mDuo13 wrote: I mean, if Blizzard doesn't want to rate it as "50 with -25 to massive" because they don't want to give minus modifiers, I think a lot of people would accept "Doesn't work against massive" as an alternative nerf that's still not as far-reaching as changing the way Ghosts interact with a bunch of other units. I mean, there are already a bunch of comparable spells and abilities - Marauder stun, force fields, Phoenix lift - that don't work on Massive units. It makes flavor sense, too, like, "What, you're gonna shoot that enormous rampaging monster in the eye with your tiny little gun?" (Actually it makes flavor sense as qxc templated it, too.) I'm not jumping on the "qxc for Balance Designer" bandwagon, though. I love you, Kevin, but you're definitely Terran-biased, and let's be honest: Blizzard doesn't need anyone else T-favored working for them. =P Who is terran biased and works for blizzard again...? Yeah, that's what I thought. Quiet - you agreeable, yet non agreeable... dude. | ||
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infinitum
United States83 Posts
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Ghost: Snipe(anti caster), Emp (AOE), Cloak(Utility) Templar: Feedback (anti caster), Archon(Utility), Storm (AOE) Infestor: Fungal (AOE), Infested Terran(Utility), Neural (Anti-caster) However 25 is too low, not because its a small number, but because snipe should 1-shot certain things, I think. I like 30, it lets you keep 1-shotting banelings. 30 base/45 psionic seems reasonable to me. i dont like QXC's idea involving the massive tag. Snipe does have too much use compared to something like feedback and neural parasite, it should be more limited. But they got the math wrong, snipe currently lets ghosts excel in small engagements of small units as well and I think that's important to protect. | ||
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FreshZerg
3 Posts
Something that blizzard also might have taken into consideration is those FE ghost builds that basically raped zerg asap unless they caught it and all in countered in time. Banelings have 30hp, so 25 makes banelings work much better vs mass snipe ghosts early on in the game. Because as a zerg player, the only really viable unit to use to counter mass ghosts is roach, and that is pretty terrible. PS- Why do ghosts have no size type? bio/psionic is fine, but every other caster and unit in the game is light, armored, or massive if i'm not mistaken. Anyone care to explain why? | ||
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Insomni7
667 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On February 16 2012 08:55 FreshZerg wrote: PS- Why do ghosts have no size type? bio/psionic is fine, but every other caster and unit in the game is light, armored, or massive if i'm not mistaken. Anyone care to explain why? Queens are the same. | ||
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thrazznos
1 Post
excellent attack damage vs: marine reaper zealot baneling hydralisk mutalisk workers and now will be less effective against: marauder corruptor broodlord ultralisk | ||
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rOse_PedaL
Korea (South)450 Posts
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On February 16 2012 07:12 Yoduh wrote: to implement a solution you first have to understand the problem. many people including the OP understand snipe was a problem in late game TvZ, and discussions so far have been focused on "how" not "if" snipe should have been nerfed. I never said TvZ was broken or that Z could never beat T, but i think it's well understood that the balance in the matchup was tilted. If you have read some of the previous posts, you can see why I assert that snipe is not the issue with TvZ. The balance is tilted, ever so slightly because the terran edge in the early game is bigger than the zerg edge in the late game...minus the literal handful of players that can use mass ghost as effectively and efficiently as MVP. If every other Terran in the GSL could do that, sure that becomes an issue but when you basically balance Terran around the top 3 players of the race, I don't think that's legitimate. How many Zerg have DRG's mutalisk control? Do we balance mutas around DRG? How many Protoss had MC's blink and FF control? Did we balance stalkers and sentries around them? If they do have to change something about ghosts, I feel like taking the damage down to 35 with a +15 to psionic or w-e would be fine. No need to basically HALVE the damage output of the spell. | ||
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weneedjello
Canada10 Posts
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Dbla08
United States211 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6232 Posts
On February 16 2012 09:38 thrazznos wrote: I am no pro terran player, but I don't think the damage of ghosts normal attack should be ignored. 20 Damage to light units is nothing to scoff at. Separating the list of units that snipe will do less damage to, Ghosts still do excellent attack damage vs: marine reaper zealot baneling hydralisk mutalisk workers and now will be less effective against: marauder corruptor broodlord ultralisk 20 damage to a single unit at standard range and normal rof is plenty to scoff at when the thing doing it costs 200/100. Personally I think the most elegant solution is to make it not castable on massive; blizzard is more likely to follow through with that than permit a minus modifier. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On February 16 2012 15:22 Belisarius wrote: 20 damage to a single unit at standard range and normal rof is plenty to scoff at when the thing doing it costs 200/100. Not when you compare to other casters that can't do any damage other than spells (HTs/Infestors). | ||
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Emperor_Earth
United States824 Posts
On February 16 2012 08:48 darkscream wrote: You know I have to say I like the idea of +psionic on snipe. All the caster units for each race, they all have the same tools: One utility, one anti-caster and one AOE. The thing about Snipe was that it was almost -never- used for anti-caster, it was used for smashing ultralisks which didn't even make any sense. I play zerg and i think ultralisks dont need to be so easy to counter. Ghost: Snipe(anti caster), Emp (AOE), Cloak(Utility) Templar: Feedback (anti caster), Archon(Utility), Storm (AOE) Infestor: Fungal (AOE), Infested Terran(Utility), Neural (Anti-caster) However 25 is too low, not because its a small number, but because snipe should 1-shot certain things, I think. I like 30, it lets you keep 1-shotting banelings. 30 base/45 psionic seems reasonable to me. i dont like QXC's idea involving the massive tag. Snipe does have too much use compared to something like feedback and neural parasite, it should be more limited. But they got the math wrong, snipe currently lets ghosts excel in small engagements of small units as well and I think that's important to protect. So in your world... Fungals shouldn't root. Fungals and Storms would only take out shields and not touch your life. Infested Terrans would instead take your energy. Infestors wouldn't burrow or move. Ghosts and Infestors would move slower What else am I missing? It's a terrible idea to try to make all the races the same with the same units and same mechanics. The whole point of SC/SC2 vs AoE is the race asymmetry while still being balanced. | ||
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