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On February 15 2012 17:24 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +I couldn't agree more with this post.
I'm part of a team that has mostly Top 8 master league and low level GM players, and all our terrans agree that they simply aren't good enough to compensate for this nerf, pretty arguing along the same lines as qxc in his original post. And these terrans are better than 99% of the community. I am a lot worse and I think I can kiss ghosts goodbye and will have to switch back to all-ins.
I admit it isn't easy or I guess even impossible to balance the game at all levels, bronze up to GM and pro. But the lower the league, the more difficult it is to use micro-heavy units, let alone after a hefty nerf.
This is literally the first patch that I think is too imbalanced. I didn't mind all the terran nerfs before. But this one is too much. I agree. First i play Terran, this means that i am not totally even handed to buffs or nerfs. Keep it in mind for the following: Since release there were several Terran nerves, which i obviusly dont like but they where everytime comprehensible. Reaperallins was broken, 2 rax too strong, offensive bunker too fast and for free, that was all ok (i mean the nurfs) for all levels of play . but since the last patches i have the following feeling: Blizzard patches Protoss and Zerg for everyone but Terrans for the highest level of play. For example the phenix buff. Mutas are hard for Protoss yes, and Blizzard give them a Upgrade which makes the micro Phenix vs Muta easier for everyone. Thats ok. Thats make the game easier. Everyone who says "Ghosts are steamrolling against t3 Zerg and autowinning with one unit", please go to the unit testmap, make 10 broodlords, 15 Ghosts and then just split and snipe. YES the Ghosts will win but with A LOT of clicks and aiming which is of cours makeable for guys like MMA or MVP but thats really a tough thing for Master players or lower.I dont want to say "buff terran because its too tough to play" I say buff Broodlords! But make them harder to micro and make them not an A click unit. Whats with the following idea of patching ghosts: Most of the time i hear the following whining: i have 400 Supply you cloak 10 Ghosts and Snipe/EMP everything and i cant have detection everywhere. Just disable Snipe and EMP when the Ghosts are cloaked.
I would just say find me a bunch of pro replays where this is happening both on the Korean scene and the Foreign scene...and they cannot be from MMA or MVP.
That aside, I like your point, I feel like just having casters needing to be visible when using their spells makes pretty good sense. Although again...I don't really see how that addresses TvZ. The sample size might be small but it's still bigger than just watching MMA and MVP roll through t3 zerg.
edit: typo
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This is exactly what I have proposed all along, I am so happy a high-profile person brought this up so it might get some attention. I hope blizzard reads this and realizes the huge misstake they are making. There is so much innovation that could and should be done with snipe, and it is such a cool spell. I'd hate to see the ghost be reduced to a niche unit for monobattles. T_T
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On February 15 2012 17:24 USvBleakill wrote:
but since the last patches i have the following feeling: Blizzard patches Protoss and Zerg for everyone but Terrans for the highest level of play. For example the phenix buff. Mutas are hard for Protoss yes, and Blizzard give them a Upgrade which makes the micro Phenix vs Muta easier for everyone. Thats ok. Thats make the game easier.
Everyone who says "Ghosts are steamrolling against t3 Zerg and autowinning with one unit", please go to the unit testmap, make 10 broodlords, 15 Ghosts and then just split and snipe. YES the Ghosts will win but with A LOT of clicks and aiming which is of cours makeable for guys like MMA or MVP but thats really a tough thing for Master players or lower.
I dont want to say "buff terran because its too tough to play" I say buff Broodlords! But make them harder to micro and make them not an A click unit.
I don't think you can go this road without completely changing the fundamentals of the game. TvZ 200-200 clash with A-move, Z steamrolls. TvP 200-200 clash a-move is not even funny. Same fights with 150 apm close fights, 400 apm T wins? While i think your thought process is right, i think it's perhaps too late to implement anymore.
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Completely agree with qcx. Blizzard needs to seriously consider this alternative solution. As a Terran player, I feel like each patch has brought one nerf after another for Terran. It's an alienating practice -- I don't feel like playing the game anymore, especially after the units I enjoy using are rendered pointless.
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The ONLY buff to snipe is actually Ghost vs Ghost, they can now 2 shot each other up from 3. Meanwhile DT's, HT's and Infestors all still require the same number of Snipes to KO as in the previous patch.
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Why in hell, people only give their suggestion to the changes and not propose better or more complicated changes.
I for one, would rebalance the ghost completely. Maybe change it's role in the game completely. Just nerfing the abilities of units, does not boost the game anywhere.
My proposal would be:
- Change resource costs back to 75/175 or 100/200.
The resource cost change to 200/100 was the first part, why snipe is now imbalanced. Ghosts can be massed too easily in endgame scenarios. Make it a gas unit, like any other heavy caster based unit in the game. This would also require the terran to manage their gas better as for only upgrades and medivacs / vikings and so on. This would also make the ghost a little bit incompatible with mech play, but one should have to decide what composition fits best.
- Leave snipe unchanged.
- Change EMP radius from 1.5 to 1.75 or 1.625.
This would rebalance the EMP back to a fair nerf resulting in only a 25% or 33% damage loss compared to the nearly 50%. In conjunction with the cost adaption this might be a good change.
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Yes, please. It's way more elegant and makes much more sense. And still accomplishes what it should.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Let's hope Blizzard listens to QXC's wise words.
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The Balance discussion here might be irrelevant.
Depending on how the damage code is written it could be literally impossible to implement your suggestion with the current damage model.Right now units have base damage and an additional damage against one type of enemy, your'e suggesting having base damage minus damage against one type of enemy.
Reprogramming the damage model could actually create some major bugs as it isn't simply a variable change.
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Trollllllllll. Yeah snipe nerf is big..too big. But what about the phoenix "buff" for toss? Make fleet beacon + upgrades to be ABLE to counter a midgame unit from zerg? It's just absurd... How can people like this patch? It's the silliest patchs since they removed amulet... You'd be rich if you sold all that wine, qxc.
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Good writeup, good idea.
The only thing is that I'm not sure the curernt damage model support anything like "minus X for massive".
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On February 15 2012 19:01 IcemanAsi wrote:
The Balance discussion here might be irrelevant.
Depending on how the damage code is written it could be literally impossible to implement your suggestion with the current damage model.Right now units have base damage and an additional damage against one type of enemy, your'e suggesting having base damage minus damage against one type of enemy.
Reprogramming the damage model could actually create some major bugs as it isn't simply a variable change.
They could just implement it as plus everything else (except for massive) from a lower base if minus doesn't work. And I don't see any reason that it would be programmed with negative damage vs massive being not possible, especially with the modability that Blizzard put in the game. As long as the variables involved will accept negatives, it shouldn't be a problem, and even if they don't, it still shouldn't.
On February 15 2012 19:26 mime1 wrote:
Trollllllllll. Yeah snipe nerf is big..too big. But what about the phoenix "buff" for toss? Make fleet beacon + upgrades to be ABLE to counter a midgame unit from zerg? It's just absurd... How can people like this patch? It's the silliest patchs since they removed amulet... You'd be rich if you sold all that wine, qxc.
qxc made an excellent suggestion that would be a lot better than what the people that are paid to balance the game came up with, presented in a well formulated post. You complained about imbalance without any reasoning and without any alternative suggested. Then you call qxc a troll...
Good job.
Edit: typo
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I don't think you can go this road without completely changing the fundamentals of the game. TvZ 200-200 clash with A-move, Z steamrolls. TvP 200-200 clash a-move is not even funny. Same fights with 150 apm close fights, 400 apm T wins? While i think your thought process is right, i think it's perhaps too late to implement anymore.
It´s maybe to easy to say but your right Terran is a "Micro wins games" race. Thats not a bad thing thats the reason because i like it. But its very frustating to see Blizzard remove another game feature because top level players are just "better" in these things. Whats next? Nerf the Minimap because better players have an advantige looking at? Just look at Leenock vs oGsFin and say again that snipe is OP against Broodlords. Its a thing of evolution in the zerg gameplay and not a part of balance.
The Balance discussion here might be irrelevant.
Depending on how the damage code is written it could be literally impossible to implement your suggestion with the current damage model.Right now units have base damage and an additional damage against one type of enemy, your'e suggesting having base damage minus damage against one type of enemy.
Reprogramming the damage model could actually create some major bugs as it isn't simply a variable change.
I am not a software engineer but it sounds like a stupid framework if that would be impossible. And if it would not possible how do the Armor or Shield Upgrades work? They reduce the incomming damage too.
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qxc, the hero of Terran. Thank you for writing this blog.
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Very well written! You are right about pretty much everything! I hope Blizzard is listening!
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Nice blog.
I agree 100% with the OP.
Reducing the damage of snipe vs massive units would solve the problem of lategame TvZ instantly.
With the recent nerf Ultra/Broodlord switches will be a problem for the terran to deal with in the lategame.
Moreover it is possible for Zerg to fight the heavy use of ghost with a ling run-by or drop, e.g. Stephano vs. Thorzain on Metalopolis. Additionally the 50 damage would inspire terrans to figure out new timings and solve the problem of the 1-HP-Infestor.
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Yep, as someone who's worked on small game projects before, I have to agree with qxc.
It's completely baffling to me that they would ignore the correct variable (massive unit/biological) vs snipe and instead change the base damage completely. Dumb oversight by blizzard.
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maybe im too low to comment but
Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance.
ur pro gamers. Im pretty pro at golf, do i get mad when they move the tees back, put in a new bunker, have changeable weather conditions. No. I know what i do. Most of it stays the same. Some things change. If ur pro adapt, im sure the REAL pros will. they will be ontop they will be innovative leaving moaning people behind. They knuckle down and demonstate WHY they have the title of pro. As it stands, im rubbish at sc2 but the metaphore here applies to everything we do. Let me just say. i watch more than i play i havent seen a single ghost produced . . or any ove noticed in the last 10 terran matches. What is everyone going mad about.
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Yes, let's increase base snipe damage to 50 so people just ghost/hellion rush zerg and nuke the spine crawlers.
Never mind the fact that maxed ghost/mech is an insta-win against zerg already
I wouldn't be against the proposed change if it was 45 damage (-20 damage to massive)
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On February 15 2012 20:46 StatixEx wrote:maybe im too low to comment but Show nested quote +Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance. ur pro gamers. Im pretty pro at golf, do i get mad when they move the tees back, put in a new bunker, have changeable weather conditions. No. I know what i do. Most of it stays the same. Some things change. If ur pro adapt, im sure the REAL pros will. they will be ontop they will be innovative leaving moaning people behind. They knuckle down and demonstate WHY they have the title of pro. As it stands, im rubbish at sc2 but the metaphore here applies to everything we do. Let me just say. i watch more than i play i havent seen a single ghost produced . . or any ove noticed in the last 10 terran matches. What is everyone going mad about.
for the game to truly advance, blizzard needs to stop fucking with balance, everyone knows this. frequent patching never lets you truly find out if something is imba or not because so many things need to be worked on.
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EPT
