EPTThe Ghost Nerf is Being Done Wrong - Page 20
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RaE21
United States260 Posts
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cerb
Germany215 Posts
I am wondering why Blizzard is not thinking in that direction. We will see how big the impact will be in the long run - and what comes next after that... | ||
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Latchy
Australia121 Posts
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Kfcnoob
United States296 Posts
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MVTaylor
United Kingdom2893 Posts
On February 15 2012 16:13 Latchy wrote: Not sure if this has already been suggested, but why not make snipe 25 + 25 psionic and + 25 light. That way they can still snipe banes/marines/zerglings/dark templar and infestors/HT? Banelings are NOT light units. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
Maybe Blizz will listen. a nerf to snipe damage to massive units is really the only correct way to do this. The way they want to do it is just shortsighted and wrong. | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
 edit: wow the numbers went totally wrong haha. Well anyway you get the idea, not too complex dmg | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On February 15 2012 08:27 whereismymind wrote: Ghost was too strong unit(before emp reduction and this nerf), those balance nerfs are welcome to every unit in game that is too strong. This game shouldn't allow free wins. And I am happy with it. More skill needed, like in BW. Yea, more skill and less QQ leading to knee jerk patching? I'm pretty sure Savior wasn't Ma Bonjwa for getting Blizzard to nerf marines and siege tanks nor was Bisu the Revolutionist for nerfing mutas. Earn your win =/= having Blizzard swing a nerf bat around. | ||
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Midori8
Australia126 Posts
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On February 15 2012 14:28 Tingles wrote: Pretty untrue dude. You struggling at the game with Terran at your level is not an argument to not patch something. While i agree that maybe not such a drastic change should be made ... maybe just to massive units or something ... it's pretty obvious late game in TvZ ghosts are pretty fucking good. It's in the same way that i suck at PvZ, and i loose almost all the time, but all i see is zergs complaining that Protoss is impossible to beat. My biased opinion on a matchup or the state of balance is irrelevant because i'm to shit to play the matchup / race well. The TvT ramifications do suck a fair bit though. So a 40% T win rate for late game TvZ at the pro level is obvious that ghost needs a nerf in late game TvZ...? The majority of Terran wins against Zerg occur in like the first 15 minutes of the game, if it weren't for marine+scv all ins and the like, I'm pretty sure TvZ would be fairly Z favored. Remember, just because MMA+MVP can do something, that doesn't mean everyone else can or that late game ghost is auto win. If late game ghost WAS so imbalanced that it required this nerf, I would expect T to have the edge in late game but that's clearly not the case. Also, yes maybe Ghosts are very effective against every high tech Zerg unit late game but can you imagine what it would be like to literally have to hard counter every Zerg tech switch in late game? You would literally have to throw down an army's worth of resources just into infrastructure to be able to hopefully remax in time for a tech switch. Terran cannot spawn whole armies of different compositions on a whim...nor can they speed up the production of their units with other spells and abilities. | ||
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phos4
Germany226 Posts
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Urth
United States1249 Posts
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RevTiberius
Canada353 Posts
On February 15 2012 16:43 tripper688 wrote: So a 40% T win rate for late game TvZ at the pro level is obvious that ghost needs a nerf in late game TvZ...? The majority of Terran wins against Zerg occur in like the first 15 minutes of the game, if it weren't for marine+scv all ins and the like, I'm pretty sure TvZ would be fairly Z favored. Remember, just because MMA+MVP can do something, that doesn't mean everyone else can or that late game ghost is auto win. If late game ghost WAS so imbalanced that it required this nerf, I would expect T to have the edge in late game but that's clearly not the case. Also, yes maybe Ghosts are very effective against every high tech Zerg unit late game but can you imagine what it would be like to literally have to hard counter every Zerg tech switch in late game? You would literally have to throw down an army's worth of resources just into infrastructure to be able to hopefully remax in time for a tech switch. Terran cannot spawn whole armies of different compositions on a whim...nor can they speed up the production of their units with other spells and abilities. I couldn't agree more with this post. I'm part of a team that has mostly Top 8 master league and low level GM players, and all our terrans agree that they simply aren't good enough to compensate for this nerf, pretty much arguing along the same lines as qxc in his original post. And these terrans are better than 99% of the community. I am a lot worse and I think I can kiss ghosts goodbye and will have to switch back to all-ins. I admit it isn't easy or I guess even impossible to balance the game at all levels, bronze up to GM and pro. But the lower the league, the more difficult it is to use micro-heavy units, let alone after a hefty nerf. This is literally the first patch that I think is too imbalanced. I didn't mind all the terran nerfs before. But this one is too much. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
I believe this is the main scenario and reason ghosts are being nerfed. In this scenario, ghosts being 2food have the ability to unleash loads of dmage instantly, evaporating the zergs units instantly while still living to do damage and possibly do it again. I think this is the main scenario that is being nerfed and its hard to find a solution that totally fixes it. First i will explain a bit why a 25 damage snipe is pretty bad and almost pointless to cast. At first i thought the snipe change was bad but i guess in the scheme of things it makes sense because ghosts have an autoattack while infestors do not. Regardless, many people seem to think with the mousescroll trick ghosts will still be able to obliterate broodlords just at a lesser rate than before. Allow me to clear up some things. Snipe has a cooldown meaning at 25 damage for 25 micro'ing that is almost not even worth it. Snipe actually has about a 0.5 second cooldown/casttime and the ghost cannot attack/fire during that cooldown With the new mousescroll wheel trick you can cast a bunch of snipes at once, however its still limited by the ghost snipe cooldown so all it does is it makes all your ghosts fire instantly but still they individually have cooldowns. also ghosts cannot do their normal DPS while chain sniping. So while chain sniping you are losing your normal DPS, but gaining snipe DPS (assuming you are chaining 25 energy snipes). So if snipe is made 25 energy for 25 damage, it wouldnt be THAT bad as long as the 0.5 second cooldown on snipe was removed. Not only that, but the 0.5 second cooldown on snipe should not effect the firing rate of ghosts, meaning if you A-MOVE a group of ghosts then hold down the snipe button and use the mousescroll trick, you could literally spam 100 snipes in 2 seconds while also not messing any of the ghosts autoattacks up. I guess if that was possible, the change wouldnt be so bad. However right now because snipe has like a 0.5 second cooldown AND the fact that you have to consume APM to use it AND the fact that when you use a snipe it RESETS the attack timer of ghosts resulting in less autoattack DPS, when you actually use ghosts to snipe right now you are losing dps from their autoattack damage, and with a 25 damage snipe it probably becomes completely not worth it to even use your APM to cast snipe as each bit of APM you use on snipe actually results in a minuscule amount of extra damage being created when you factor in the lost DPS from ghosts autoattacks. The above is the main point of this post and something i think should be cleared up. Blizzard probably already knows about it somewhat but the community doesnt completely know about it and maybe blizzard is just talking about a 25/25 snipe now the same way they talked about NP not working on massive units, but its just a tactic by blizzard to suggest a massive nerf at first and then bring in a lesser nerf in the real patch. That is just speculation, who cares, but regardless maybe there is a small percent chance the balance team isnt completely aware of how the cooldown results in lost ghost DPS meaning casting a 25 damage snipe is almost a non productive use of APM because you lose DPS for almost a miniscule amount generated damage. So above is the main point of the post, and below is just my opinions on possible solutions. This is just one possible solution im thinking of. These are just my opinions, and i dont know what solution blizzard will go with im just brainstorming. The MAIN part of this post is just to aware people of the snipe cooldown and how a 25 damage snipe is almost removing the spell completely as its not even worth it to click anymore, this part of the post is just opinions/brainstorming on possible solutions but if you dont like reading that kinda stuff you can just stop reading now if you like. Okay, now moving onto my opinions. I think because removing that 0.5 second cooldown on snipe would be hard to do, i think the easiest and simplest way to balance snipe is to make it 125 energy for 125 damage So in conclusion, I think 1 energy for 1 damage on snipe is not a bad balance move because one 2food ghost can dish out 200 energy for 200 damage and that means 2 ghosts at 4food can instantly destroy a 4food broodlord while still surviving to live another day and regenerate energy and do it again, but 25 damage on snipe is just pitiful and not worth the APM clicks. So i suggest making snipe 125 energy for 125 damage, or possibly 100 energy for 100 damage. This would allow ghosts to almost 1shot zealots and still with max energy bars ghosts lategame would still do the dirty and kill broodlords/ultras quickly. But at a lesser rate than current. Lets look at my proposed idea. 3ghosts vs 2 ultralisks, both cost 6food. 4ghosts with max upgrades and energy bars could launch 4 snipes at a ultralisk and deal 500 damage to it, leaving it with 1health to get 1shotted and then launch 2snipes at the other ultra dealing 250 damage leaving it with 250 health remaining and the 6ghosts can autoattack and kill the other one shortly after. So with my change ghosts would still destroy ultras and broodlords, and but it requires them to regenerate to 125 energy on all of them, and its HARD to produce plenty ghosts, and infestor fungals with mass ling swarms would still #!#@ ghosts, and my change still follows the 1energy for 1damage guideline that blizzard wants to follow. However, zergs reading the above description may still feel thats overpowered, because they might think "dang, the reason they are nerfing snipe is cuz is kills ultras and broods too well, with your change it almost seems like a buff because 6ghosts will still destroy 2ultras" And you know what zergs, maybe you are right. Maybe it should be 75 energy for 50 damage. Maybe 150 energy for 125 damage (which would still lead to my scenario happening, but it would cost more energy to do it increasing the reload time). I dont know what exactly the main final solution will be, thats why this part of my post is just my opinions. The main part of this post was explaining how a 25 damage snipe is pretty pointless, and my opinions are just my opinions, so yes zergs maybe your right, i dont know, these are just my opinions and i think brainstorming is a good thing. Further thoughts. A comparing fungal damage i remember seeing a game where MVP had 30 spread +3 vikings trying to counter broodlords and they were still destroyed by infestors. I forget who he was facing tho. Id say in that game even with good spreads it was normal to deal 300 damage for 75 energy with the fungals on vikings. that is insane. thats 4 damage for 1 energy. One might think fungal is way too good compared to snipe if they compare the two spells. But I think the balance lies in the fact that multiple infestors cannot really "stack" their damage instantly, while many ghosts can stack their damage instantly with snipe. These two properties of the spells can create a trade off balance between the two spells where they both are strong in different areas but pretty well balanced in the scheme of things. Based on the spells mechanics and how infestors do DoT damage in a AoE, and snipe is a instant unload of all energy damage instantly, the mechanics seem to suggest infestors are stronger early, but when the terran has a 200food army with a ton of ghosts the "stacking" effect kicks in and ghosts are able to instantly unload all their damage while infestors must "wait" for the DoT spell to finish before turning more energy into more damage. So based on these mechanics blizzard has to come up with some kind of number scheme they feel is fair given the two spells properties and you dont want ghosts to be too powerful in that lategame scenario, possibly only just as powerful as the infestors. I dont know what numbers blizzard will finalize with, the point of this post was just to aware everyone how 25 damage snipes are pretty worthless. With that said, whatever solution ultimate is reached will probably be a good one so i guess lets just wait and see. Watch this game between morrow and leenock. I think if snipe was 125 energy for 125 damage, morrow could do the same thing in the game (murdering broodlords with snipe) however it would take less apm to pull off. So once again zergs might think 125 energy for 125 damage is pretty OP, and maybe you are right, whatever numbers are finalized i hope blizzard spends plenty of time trying to come up with the perfect numbers. HOWEVER, 125 damage snipe would ruin it against marines and i hear there are many new TvT strats involving ghosts against marines. So here is my final i believe best way to balance snipe NEW SNIPE STATS: 25 energy for 30 damage + 20 psionic if targeting a massive unit, the ghost will fire a second bonus super snipe at the massive target instantly for 100 energy which deals 90 damage. This effect does not happen if the ghost does not have the 100 energy available so the above new snipe will automatically allow ghosts with 200 energy to instantly unload 115 damage to a massive unit with 1 click, and this costs 125 energy to do. Then after that the ghost can cast extra snipes with remaining 25 energy. with these numbers, it would almost be a buff to snipe. because now 2 ghosts with 200energy will instantly vaporize a broodlord (2 snipes for 230 damage, broodlord dies) and still survive to do it again (on second thought, it might be imbalanced if the super snipe only costs 100 energy, because then 3 200 energy ghosts could launch extra normal snipes at an ultralisk and finish it off. so maybe the super snipe should require 100 energy to fire, however it drains all of the ghosts energy when used so a ghost cannot fire extra small snipes) Many zergs may think this is overpowered because of the example i gave above of 2ghosts instantly vaporizing a broodlord and both cost 4food. however what makes it balanced is the fact that its hard to make plenty ghosts and against ultras 3ghosts would only do 345 damage with their snipes, meaning ultras against full energy ghosts still survive to do more tanking while infestors unleash chain fungals destroying all the ghosts in seconds maybe my numbers arent perfect, however i feel some kind of number scheme that uses the above formula which allows the ghost to turn more energy into more damage faster is the best way to go because it lets ghosts turn more energy into damage but at a worse ratio and a 30 damage snipe is still worthwhile to cast in the early game in TvT for various ghost builds that are going around. Actually, scratch that i just realized something. Using something similar to the above method, theres probably a even smarter way to nerf snipe that only goes towards nerfing the endgame scenario. Remember, the main thing blizzard wants to nerf is ghosts that are allowed to get 200 energy in a lategame stalemate scenario and then decimate the zerg. Heres a good idea to nerf that without nerfing much else using some of the above elements/ideas. So heres my new final final idea on what i think is the best way to balance snipe right now. New Snipe 25 energy for 45 damage, 20 to massive When targeting a massive unit, if 100 energy is available after the snipe it fires an extra super snipe for free at the massive unit which drains all the ghosts energy and deals 95 damage. When this supersnipe is used it puts snipe on cooldown for 30 seconds and also gives the ghost 25 energy and does not break cloak. so with this new snipe, a ghost with 200 energy would be able to unleash a 115 instant damage snipe which seems to be a good amount for a 2food unit to be allowed to dish out for 200 energy, and it still would only be nerfing endgame snipe which is when ghosts are allowed to get full energy. also i added that cloak thing in there so it wouldnt break cloak so when a ghost uses snipe on a massive unit, if it has 125 energy it actually launched 2 snipes, one for 20 damage one for 95 damage, and then all the ghosts energy is drained then the ghost is given 25 energy without breaking cloak so the ghost can be cloaked for a little while longer. and snipe is put on cooldown for 30 seconds. otherwise, if a ghost does not have 125 energy, it just launches the normal 25 energy for 20 damage snipe. I think the above change even though its very complicated nerfs the part of ghosts blizzard wants to nerf (the endgame stalemate with a bunch of 200 energy ghosts) Anyway it was a long post but as you can see there are many different ways to nerf snipe properly and im sure many ideas exist out there. However i feel most sane terrans out there will agree that in those lategame stalemate scenarios, ghosts are too good because they are 2food and if they have 200 energy they instantly vaporize pretty much all zerg units that could be made to counter them cost for cost. while infestors dont do instant damage so they are weaker in the endgame scenario | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On February 15 2012 16:53 RevTiberius wrote: I couldn't agree more with this post. I'm part of a team that has mostly Top 8 master league and low level GM players, and all our terrans agree that they simply aren't good enough to compensate for this nerf, pretty arguing along the same lines as qxc in his original post. And these terrans are better than 99% of the community. I am a lot worse and I think I can kiss ghosts goodbye and will have to switch back to all-ins. I admit it isn't easy or I guess even impossible to balance the game at all levels, bronze up to GM and pro. But the lower the league, the more difficult it is to use micro-heavy units, let alone after a hefty nerf. This is literally the first patch that I think is too imbalanced. I didn't mind all the terran nerfs before. But this one is too much. You know what's funny, I don't even think Ghost nerf addresses current TvZ balance. Across the board, TvZ win rates are within 5% which would imply there isn't a huge balance issue. Add to the fact that, like I said, many T wins come from the early/mid game (call it cheese/all in if you want) and it just strikes me as odd that late game Ghost play is the problem with TvZ. You can literally count on one hand the number of Terrans that have consistently good results against high level Zerg...I don't know, I really don't see the problem here. If anything, based on what I can see from the stats compiled from MLG and SC2stats...buffing late game Terran and buffing early game Zerg make more sense to balance the TvZ matchup. And that isn't even addressing the 40% win rate that Protoss has been having against Zerg lately haha. | ||
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Vanimar
220 Posts
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RevTiberius
Canada353 Posts
I was expecting some changes around terran mech rather than the ghost. In dealing with this my predicition is that more terrans are gonna switch to all-ins rather than change their late game set-up. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
I couldn't agree more with this post. I'm part of a team that has mostly Top 8 master league and low level GM players, and all our terrans agree that they simply aren't good enough to compensate for this nerf, pretty arguing along the same lines as qxc in his original post. And these terrans are better than 99% of the community. I am a lot worse and I think I can kiss ghosts goodbye and will have to switch back to all-ins. I admit it isn't easy or I guess even impossible to balance the game at all levels, bronze up to GM and pro. But the lower the league, the more difficult it is to use micro-heavy units, let alone after a hefty nerf. This is literally the first patch that I think is too imbalanced. I didn't mind all the terran nerfs before. But this one is too much. I agree. First i play Terran, this means that i am not totally even handed to buffs or nerfs. Keep it in mind for the following: Since release there were several Terran nerves, which i obviusly dont like but they where everytime comprehensible. Reaperallins was broken, 2 rax too strong, offensive bunker too fast and for free, that was all ok (i mean the nurfs) for all levels of play . but since the last patches i have the following feeling: Blizzard patches Protoss and Zerg for everyone but Terrans for the highest level of play. For example the phenix buff. Mutas are hard for Protoss yes, and Blizzard give them a Upgrade which makes the micro Phenix vs Muta easier for everyone. Thats ok. Thats make the game easier. Everyone who says "Ghosts are steamrolling against t3 Zerg and autowinning with one unit", please go to the unit testmap, make 10 broodlords, 15 Ghosts and then just split and snipe. YES the Ghosts will win but with A LOT of clicks and aiming which is of cours makeable for guys like MMA or MVP but thats really a tough thing for Master players or lower. I dont want to say "buff terran because its too tough to play" I say buff Broodlords! But make them harder to micro and make them not an A click unit. Whats with the following idea of patching ghosts: Most of the time i hear the following whining: i have 400 Supply you cloak 10 Ghosts and Snipe/EMP everything and i cant have detection everywhere. Just disable Snipe and EMP when the Ghosts are cloaked. | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
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CutieBK
Sweden227 Posts
Here's hoping Blizz actually listens to this and makes that change instead! | ||
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