My view regarding Destiny's latest statements

Still, I must say that it is surprising and shocking to find that Destiny thinks a noob oriented game such as League of Legends takes more skill than StarCraft 2. This kind of statement is in no way the result of a clear and lucid thought process.

On February 08 2012 00:53 FuxFux wrote:
Greetings TeamLiquid Community.

I think we are all a bit shocked about Destiny's statements of late.

On February 08 2012 00:55 JOJOsc2news wrote:

Taking out the judgement hammer.

"Noob oriented game" is not really the kinda language that makes me follow your argument.
Edit: A link to the statement would be nice.

On February 08 2012 00:53 FuxFux wrote:
Greetings TeamLiquid Community.

I think we are all a bit shocked about Destiny's statements of late.

On February 08 2012 00:53 FuxFux wrote:
A game that requires no skill such as LoL might make you feel relieved, you might feel good about yourself when you win matches. Owning noobs and what-not. But deluding yourself into believing you are actually playing a game superior to StarCraft 2 is unacceptable, and quite frankly, pathethic.

On February 08 2012 01:20 sermokala wrote:
this is a halrious thread. Destiny makes a valid point and instead of refuting it people go into a massive hissy about hows hes lost his passion and lost touch with his viewers even when you can get a dozen pros to back up his statements.

nice first post though.

On February 08 2012 01:24 FuxFux wrote:


What is valid about his point? Did you ever play LOL?
Compare the average APM of a StarCraft 2 player to that of a LOL player.
In LOL you need to take care of a champion, creep timings and 4 spells.
In SC2 you need to take care of build a base, mining resources, executing build orders perfectly, positioning your army properly, macroing like crazy to have a huge army and micro with 200 APM to win a single battle.

for an individual player SC2 is much harder. and even for teams, playing SC2 with multiple partners is much harder to coordinate than playing LOL will ever be.

On February 08 2012 01:28 Moliere wrote:

All you have to do in CS 1.6 is shoot two guns, throw a couple grenades and sometimes plant a bomb. So by your logic CS doesn't take that much skill?

On February 08 2012 01:20 Cascade wrote:
I just hope that destiny switching to LoL will not make all of his 4chan fans come to the stream chats of the real zerg players... We need you destiny! As retard magnet, but nonetheless, we need you!

On February 08 2012 01:24 FuxFux wrote:


What is valid about his point? Did you ever play LOL?
Compare the average APM of a StarCraft 2 player to that of a LOL player.
In LOL you need to take care of a champion, creep timings and 4 spells.
In SC2 you need to take care of build a base, mining resources, executing build orders perfectly, positioning your army properly, macroing like crazy to have a huge army and micro with 200 APM to win a single battle.

for an individual player SC2 is much harder. and even for teams, playing SC2 with multiple partners is much harder to coordinate than playing LOL will ever be.

On February 08 2012 01:02 Ragoo wrote:


But it's exactly that. It's DotA made for casual players. Which means it takes away depth from the competitive play as well.

And while you can definitely say that mechanically Dota games don't require nearly as much, the team communication/coordination is something that's not at all present in SC2. So comparing those two games is quite complex... and probably pointless.

edit: Also



you do realize that we don't all watch Destiny's stream and care about what he says?

On February 08 2012 01:36 sermokala wrote:


So pros can't just 1/1/1 cheese every game and then 4 gate 5 times in the finals to win the gsl? in lol you need to work with a team often times you can't communicate with them in a team fight that lasts seconds and requires you to be correctly positioned and keep 9 other people in consideration to your every move. not to mention having to keep an eye on your lane partner, worry about getting ganked, directly compete with another guy or 2 in lane while you try and cs and do all of the above.

build orders become a mindless action after a while and "macroing like crazy" doesn't take any skill hitting a hotkey and then a button from anywhere on the map isn't crazy its easy. Do you really want to compare battle micro to a teamfight in lol?

On February 08 2012 01:38 FuxFux wrote:


All you do is use 20 words to describe a very simple situation for an individual player. he needs to control ONE unit, position ONE unit and micro ONE unit. and if you think that pros can "just" 1/1/1 cheese every game and then 4 gate 5 times in the finals and win a gsl then you already lost this argument and you probably lack a bit of sanity too.

how did LoL fanboys got to teamliquid anyway? Destiny is already beginning to have a negative effect on this community :/

On February 08 2012 02:22 Bengui wrote:
Apples sure are tastier than oranges.

On February 08 2012 00:53 FuxFux wrote:I think no person can really deny the fact that Destiny lost touch with his stream viewers. The past few months, he gradually became less talkative and explanatory to people who came to him for knowledge, and learning. It is like he turned into stone before my eyes.

Still, I must say that it is surprising and shocking to find that Destiny thinks an easy, straight forward and slow-paced game such as League of Legends takes more skill than StarCraft 2. This kind of statement is in no way the result of a clear and lucid thought process.

Destiny, I understand that it is hard for you. I understand that you find games like LoL an easy way out, an escape. We all know that StarCraft 2 is a hard and demanding game and that improving can sometimes feel like climbing up an extremely steep cliff.

But I do not understand how you can just give up like this. To publicly humiliate yourself by saying StarCraft 2 requires less skill than LoL? You could have quietly made the jump and switch to play only LoL and I would shed a few tears and go on with my life. But making this statement, I feel, is generally disrespecting the entire StarCraft 2 community, and specifically all the people who followed you vigorously.

A game that requires no skill such as LoL might make you feel relieved, you might feel good about yourself when you win matches. Owning noobs and what-not. But deluding yourself into believing you are actually playing a game superior to StarCraft 2 is unacceptable, and quite frankly, pathethic.

So, I just wanted to open this thread to share my discontempt with your statements, and to let you know that I have lost all respect for you. I know that I am but one fan you lost, so I decided to open it as a thread, to be able to gather the opinion of the rest of my (yes my, not your) community.

Even though I no longer respect you, I do hope you will be able to one day find redemption.

A game that requires no skill such as SC2 might make you feel relieved, you might feel good about yourself when you win matches. Owning noobs and what-not. But deluding yourself into believing you are actually playing a game superior to Brood War is unacceptable, and quite frankly, pathethic.

On February 08 2012 01:44 sermokala wrote:


you have to control 1 unit when you have 9 others that are not under your control to consider. You can't tell me that more and more gsl games are getting back to cheese. MMA beat MVP primary though cheese builds. every protoss does a 2 base allin. Its not a simple situation at all when you have so many different champs that you can play or someone else play. in sc2 you always know your race and before it matters always know the race of your opponent.

Heck midas thinks that lol is harder then sc2. I think he knows more then the both of us on this situation.

oh and when did all the destiny fanboys get to tl. I thought they all stayed at reddit where they belong. negative affect on the community comment with 4 posts don't be stupid.

On February 08 2012 03:16 matiK23 wrote:


Hey in Call of Duty, you control 1 unit and don't have control of 11 others. Does that mean its harder game than LoL because there are +2 units you cannot control? This retort is hilarious. Seriously if you are going to use the whole argument of controlling one unit, people have to control 200 supply worth of units plus the other 200 unit not in your control. Hurr Durrrrr. Is there no cheese in LoL? How about counter jungling? That's rushing and an aberration of standard play. Build orders become a mindless thing in sc2 after a certain level? Ok well so does last hitting creeps.

If anyone is a destiny fanboy, it's you because you just endorsed what Destiny claimed in the first place. And to all the guys bitching about how this is even a thread, it's the blog section. People have a right to type about their thoughts here, within boundaries, regardless of how absurd you might think.

On February 08 2012 03:30 sermokala wrote:



because half your supply isn't in workers. in cod you die instantly so theres no comparison. You talk about counterjungling like its a 1/1/1 when its more like the concept of harassment in sc2.

Now lets break it down and why you are a complete idoit and should go back to reddit.

1. you constantly try to do a childish insult after every point. thats just stupid and makes you look bad
2. last hitting creeps and build orders are the same. yes your point? that supports my side you where better off saying that afk farming for janglers requires even less practice.
3. You completely have no idea what the concept of counter jungling is. I have no idea how you could attribute that to rushing and you could have made the point of level 1 group fighting to try and steal a buff at the start of the game.
4. you call me a destiny fanboy because I endorse what he said? I didn't endorse anything I just pointed out that his points where valid and its funny that his fans and redditors just like always completely miss the point and try to make a big deal about how he lost his passion and likes lol now.
5. just because its a blog doesn't mean shit. people have a right to their thoughts but that doesn't mean they can't be held to account to them. I think your an idoit and wrong and I'm proving it.

Seriously move onto the fact that hes screwing over his carrer in sc2 by playing lol in a korean practice house. An environment that thousands of people would kill for hes just screwing away.

On February 08 2012 02:35 Destiny wrote:

I've made some pretty outlandish statements recently, mostly out of anger, I think, due to how fucking stupid the vocal minority in this community is. That being said, the "strategy" aspect of Starcraft 2 is insanely lacking. I've given up trying to convince casuals of that, but I'd gladly discuss that aspect with any other pro gamer, and I'm pretty certain they'd agree with me.



My complaint has never been that Starcraft 2 is "hard", just that time invested into the game is everything, with strategy/intelligence taking a far far far backseat to just raw games invested.

On February 08 2012 00:53 FuxFux wrote:
A game that requires no skill such as LoL might make you feel relieved, you might feel good about yourself when you win matches. Owning noobs and what-not. But deluding yourself into believing you are actually playing a game superior to StarCraft 2 is unacceptable, and quite frankly, pathethic.

On February 08 2012 00:53 FuxFux wrote:
A game that requires no skill such as LoL might make you feel relieved, you might feel good about yourself when you win matches. Owning noobs and what-not. But deluding yourself into believing you are actually playing a game superior to StarCraft 2 is unacceptable, and quite frankly, pathethic.

On February 08 2012 04:17 drgoats wrote:


If you read his reddit posts you will see that this statement is exactly the thing that he is angry at the SC2 community about. Calling LoL a game that takes no skill is purely ignorant. It is the sort of statement that creates an unnecessary separation between the two game's communities.

Now let us look at League of Legends. If League of Legends required no skill, it would not be considered a rising e-sport. If you actually played League of Legends enough, you would know that there are a lot of things that need to be taken into account throughout the laning phase, mid game, and late game. During the laning phase, it is all about harass trades, last hitting, positioning, and overall trying to win your lane. Midgame revolves around securing objectives on the map, i.e. dragon, red/blue buffs for your carries, and pushing down lanes. Once again, this requires thought-process and in most cases, positioning. Late game revolves around team fights and baron. Again, positioning, but now teamwork is a HUGE factor.

On February 08 2012 02:35 Destiny wrote:
My complaint has never been that Starcraft 2 is "hard", just that time invested into the game is everything, with strategy/intelligence taking a far far far backseat to just raw games invested.

On February 08 2012 04:47 mTw|NarutO wrote:


Investing time into a game is rewarding for every game. It can be LoL, DotA or any other game there is. The amount you have to put into a game might be slightly different and I think a lot of people would say LoL and DotA do require less time to play or reach a higher level.

You don't need to be a strategic mastermind in Starcraft and your statement that strategy is less rewarding (I guess) is true, because there's not enough room for it. LoL / DotA is a teamgame and there are way more possibilities to exploit that with strategic decisions. Starcraft in itself is very complex and its more about reading and understand the game and its flow paired with insanely mechanical demand to the player.

If you don't like how the game is designed, feel free to play another game that is more strategic or strategically demanding, yet I can assure you that no one in Starcraft may it MVP or NesTea does fully understand the game and its strategies yet, thats why the game still develops.

Also I do think your race is not the very best to play very strategic based games, but reactive mechanical games.

On February 08 2012 05:04 Cokefreak wrote:

Thanks for contributing to this discussion, even though the whole thing is pretty stupid.

On February 08 2012 04:08 rei wrote:


We would like to see your argument on how strategy aspect of sc2 is insanely lacking(lacking compare to wah?), and why time invested into the game is everything, and why strategy / intelligence is taking a far far far back seat. What about tactics? is that also lacking too? i'm sure someone as smart as yourself knows the difference between strategic aspect of sc2 and tactically aspect of sc2.

If you compared sc2 with bw, then ya your statement make sense, sc2 is lacking, but you have not played bw, so you have no idea of how deep that rabbit hole goes.(and time invested in bw is even more a factor than sc2)

Where do you draw your arguments?

On February 08 2012 05:06 blade55555 wrote:


Yup agree with this. If you are looking for more strategic based games zerg isn't the race for you at all lol terran would probably be the best fit for that.

I am curious why Destiny is complaining about investing time into a game does he think he should only have to play 3-4 hours a day and beat top tier players? That would be retarded and I actually can't believe he doesn't think you should have to invest so much time to become good -_-.

On February 08 2012 05:13 Destiny wrote:


Just write everything off I say as QQ and go ask other pros. I've tried to explain it too many times, but if you don't actually play the game at a high level it's too easy to dismiss everything I say.

On February 08 2012 05:17 Djzapz wrote:

People mostly dismiss what you say because you haven't really played SC2 at a high level so it's hard to take your word that SC2 is easy.

On February 08 2012 05:21 Poopi wrote:

Which Halo do you play?
Halo took less and less skill in the latest games but on Halo 1, a team who won was a team with the best individuals, not so much on Halo 2 but individual skill was really useful and there was quite a high skillcap for a console FPS.

On February 08 2012 05:17 Djzapz wrote:

People mostly dismiss what you say because you haven't really played SC2 at a high level so it's hard to take your word that SC2 is easy.

On February 08 2012 05:13 Destiny wrote:


Just write everything off I say as QQ and go ask other pros. I've tried to explain it too many times, but if you don't actually play the game at a high level it's too easy to dismiss everything I say.

On February 08 2012 05:33 Ballistixz wrote:



idra does and he says basically the same thing. stephano hasnt said it directly, but he thinks the game is easy.

On February 08 2012 05:36 Recognizable wrote:


It's because Idra's reference point is Brood War. Starcraft 2 might be easier then Brood War. It's still better then..... almost everything else in terms of individual skill. I can only think of quake, and if I try really hard maybe 3/4 other games.

On February 08 2012 05:36 Recognizable wrote:


It's because Idra's reference point is Brood War. Starcraft 2 might be easier then Brood War. It's still better then..... almost everything else in terms of individual skill. I can only think of quake, and if I try really hard maybe 3/4 other games.

On February 08 2012 05:44 NoctemSC wrote:
Destiny was trolling you, I'm on his stream right this second as I'm typing this.
He said that yes, he is an entertainer but he wants to focus on the competitive side of starcraft 2 even though his most of his money is made from the entertainment side of it.
He has no plans that he's stated to transfer to LoL, I'm sure he just does it to take a break from starcraft when he gets stressed out so it doesn't become stale.

On February 08 2012 02:35 Destiny wrote:


It is not possible to be incredibly competitive and still goof off day in and day out. If you want to watch someone just "have fun" on stream and "be crazy" etc...etc..., then Dragon would be a good pick for you. I understand that this upsets some people, but, due to my desire to actually be competitive instead of only entertaining, it's something that has to have happened.



I've made some pretty outlandish statements recently, mostly out of anger, I think, due to how fucking stupid the vocal minority in this community is. That being said, the "strategy" aspect of Starcraft 2 is insanely lacking. I've given up trying to convince casuals of that, but I'd gladly discuss that aspect with any other pro gamer, and I'm pretty certain they'd agree with me.



My complaint has never been that Starcraft 2 is "hard", just that time invested into the game is everything, with strategy/intelligence taking a far far far backseat to just raw games invested.



I'm only publically humiliating myself to the vocal minorities that only see 1 game, their legendary Starcraft 2, as the only competitive game in the world. I still think I could defend the statement that LoL (or any MOBA, honestly, especially DotA 2) requires more "skill" in terms of strategy/intelligence, BY FAR, than Starcraft 2.



"No skill" game makes you sound immature and bigoted, like your blessed Starcraft 2 is the only competitive game in the world. I wish you would have been around when all of the BW-fans were saying the exact same thing about SC2, and I can tell by the tone of your post that you weren't.



Sorry if you feel that way, then.



My life will never revolve around seeking redemption from fans. If you want to watch someone act politically correct, then I suggest Incontrol.

On February 08 2012 05:41 Ballistixz wrote:


you dont need to play brood war to understand how easy this game is. infact SC2 was built purposely to be easy for the casuals to get more into it without the stress of being a top notch pro like it was in BW.

On February 08 2012 05:50 Recognizable wrote:


No, you don't know how easy most other Multiplayer games are.

Go play some Call of Duty and then come back at me. Starcraft 2 is one of the most challenging multiplayer games there is. Also I find it rediculous that players like Idra and Stephano say this game is easy. Yes it's easier to pick up and play, but we haven't even come close to the skill ceiling. I play on a European GM level and I can tell you I find this game extremely hard, I can write books on the amount of mistakes I make in a single game, from just the accuracy of my mouse control, to the speed in which I select units and add to my control group, fundemental army positioning mistakes, not reacting well to the opponent. Ofcourse I can write a book about all the mistakes I make in a single game, the truth is however. I can also write a page about the mistakes Idra makes in a single game. We haven't even touched the skill ceiling. Most games are still being decided by some kind of midgame timing in my experience and rarely go to the lategame where alot more is to be done.

On February 08 2012 05:21 atmuh wrote:

beat me to it

On February 08 2012 05:59 Ballistixz wrote:


??? there are alot of "easier competitive" games out there. yugioh, halo, F2P MMOs, P2P MMOs, etc. but it doesnt change the fact that SC2 is among the "easy" brand of competitive games.

as far as skill ceiling, here are the requirments to get from say plat to high rank masters in SC2. great excution of build order(which comes easily by simple practice), flawless timing(again, comes with practice), great macro, decent micro, great scouting abilities (knowing when to scout and what to scout for), not getting supply blocked good unit control. thats all you really need. if you dont have these traits then your pretty much diamond level.

ALL of those traits can be gained by simply playing the game and practicing OFTEN. its not hard to do at all. now what seprates masters from GM? pure raw games. thats it. play alot of games while ur high lvl masters and eventually you will get into GM. now what seprates a GM player from a pro player? FLAWLESS execution of all the above traits i mentioned, which again comes with tons and tons of practice and dedication.

also i dont see how you can be a GM player and still find the game "hard". look at deezer and combat EX. both GMs level. do i even need to say anything else?

On February 08 2012 05:59 Ballistixz wrote:


??? there are alot of "easier competitive" games out there. yugioh, halo, F2P MMOs, P2P MMOs, etc. but it doesnt change the fact that SC2 is among the "easy" brand of competitive games.

as far as skill ceiling, here are the requirments to get from say plat to high rank masters in SC2. great excution of build order(which comes easily by simple practice), flawless timing(again, comes with practice), great macro, decent micro, great scouting abilities (knowing when to scout and what to scout for), not getting supply blocked good unit control. thats all you really need. if you dont have these traits then your pretty much diamond level.

ALL of those traits can be gained by simply playing the game and practicing OFTEN. its not hard to do at all. now what seprates masters from GM? pure raw games. thats it. play alot of games while ur high lvl masters and eventually you will get into GM. now what seprates a GM player from a pro player? FLAWLESS execution of all the above traits i mentioned, which again comes with tons and tons of practice and dedication.

also i dont see how you can be a GM player and still find the game "hard". look at deezer and combat EX. both GMs level. do i even need to say anything else?

On February 08 2012 06:11 Recognizable wrote:


Yes, so you must practice alot. Isn't that what defines how hard the game is? Just like you I see starcraft mostly as a game of mechanical skill with some strategy and reacting to your opponent. Doesn't take away the fact that there is so much shit to do nobody has even perfected this. How can you say reaching high master is easy when there are like 0.1 percent of all starcraft players are high master.

On February 08 2012 06:14 Ballistixz wrote:


no it doesnt. also 0.1% of all starcraft players are high masters? cant take your post seriously after that.

On February 08 2012 06:17 Recognizable wrote:


Yes, it's probably smaller. Just do the math if high master is like >1000 points. Just by taking a guess it seems to be a really fucking small percentage of players. I cba to do it right now, but if you want I can update tommorow.

On February 08 2012 06:19 Ballistixz wrote:


lol, where are you getting your imaginary numbers from?

On February 08 2012 06:25 Recognizable wrote:


I just checked on Sc2ranks, man do I love that site. If high master is >1000 points. Yeah, I just defined high master right there. You can come up with a better definition. + Show Spoiler +
If i'm reading it correctly it means about 2 percent of all players are high master. Whole master league is 3.9 percent. So I was wrong. Again, how can you say something is easy when only 2 to 3 percent of the population is able to reach this.

On February 08 2012 04:32 Sm3agol wrote:

Tic-tac-toe requires skill too. So does basketball on a 3 foot hoop. So does soccer with a 30 foot wide goal and no goalie. What we're talking about is skill ceiling. LoL has a fairly low skill ceiling. Dota 2 is decently higher. Sc2 is even higher. But in SC2, pure mechanical skill and mermorization will get you very far(some say, way too far), whereas in Dota 2/LoL/HoN, pure mechanical skill is about 10% of the skill required to play the game well at a very high level.

Apples, Oranges, LoL sucks, in my personal opinion.

On February 08 2012 06:25 Recognizable wrote:


I just checked on Sc2ranks, man do I love that site. If high master is >1000 points. Yeah, I just defined high master right there. You can come up with a better definition. + Show Spoiler +
If i'm reading it correctly it means about 2 percent of all players are high master. Whole master league is 3.9 percent. So I was wrong. Again, how can you say something is easy when only 2 to 3 percent of the population is able to reach this.

On February 08 2012 06:34 Ballistixz wrote:


first off 2-3% of players can be hundreds of thousands of players depending on how many ppl actually play SC2.... doesnt sound like such a low number now does it? 2ndly you have to factor in inactivity and the ammount of ppl that only play this game for fun without any intentions of ever becoming good at the game. just because someone is unwilling to take the time out of there day to get into masters doesnt meant its hard to get into. getting into masters league, like i said before, comes mainly from dedicating yourself to the game every day. same as GM, but even more extreme dedication then masters.

and when i say "dedication" i am talking about the ammount of games you play a day and the time u take in practicing build orders/timings/etc. not hard to do if you know how to do it.

A game that requires no skill such as LoL might make you feel relieved, you might feel good about yourself when you win matches. Owning noobs and what-not. But deluding yourself into believing you are actually playing a game superior to StarCraft 2 is unacceptable, and quite frankly, pathethic

A game that requires no skill such as LoL might make you feel relieved, you might feel good about yourself when you win matches. Owning noobs and what-not. But deluding yourself into believing you are actually playing a game superior to StarCraft 2 is unacceptable, and quite frankly, pathethic

On February 08 2012 06:00 Destiny wrote:

Really?

On February 08 2012 07:21 NoctemSC wrote:

Kind of funny really, Recreational players trying to tell someone who's doing this on a professional level how starcraft is really played. Do you guys realize that there are no other professional players in this blog that are arguing with Destiny? It's because he's right. He knows the ins and outs of the competitive scene better than most of us could dream.

On February 08 2012 07:21 NoctemSC wrote:

Kind of funny really, Recreational players trying to tell someone who's doing this on a professional level how starcraft is really played. Do you guys realize that there are no other professional players in this blog that are arguing with Destiny? It's because he's right. He knows the ins and outs of the competitive scene better than most of us could dream.

On February 08 2012 07:56 Enki wrote:
LoL is a terrible game, I won't even get into how shitty the community and pubs are on there. Fuck that. It's more about luck then skill, what skills do you need in LoL honestly? learning to last hit, laying wards, know what all the champion abilitys and shit do, what builds to do etc. Is that really harder then SC2? I have played at least a thosand games of both and the answer is no.

Destiny is just stirring shit up I think, it's all he does.

The reason few people argue is because its pointless.

Casual argument is stupid. Anyone that say LoL is only for casuals are ignorant. It has no anticompetitive elements unlike say brawl or ogermagi.
Easy argument is equally stupid. The simpler a game becomes the more nuances there are and the more unforgiving it becomes.

LoL is a lot less about strategy and more about tactics. It has to do with game design. A game will never be "easier" than another if it has equal or more choices than chess.

On February 08 2012 07:59 hodgestar wrote:
I think when the OP says "LoL takes no skill", he doesn't mean that it literally takes NO SKILL. Even walking takes skill. He just means the skill required to play LoL at a competitive level is very low, and with that I agree.

Destiny, will you go further and claim that BW involves very little strategy and intelligence, as it's pretty much considered a "solved" game in some sense, and mechanical skill is a big deal in it, more so than in sc2?

I'm a fairly highly-ranked chess player, and to everything one can do in a game of chess, I can draw a very straightforward sc2 analogy.
Thing is, mechanical skill in sc2 serves a purpose - executing your strategy correctly.
The better mechanical skill one has, the richer his potential strategy landscape becomes.

Destiny seems to have little understanding of the game (oh god, he thinks it's ok to spam Z-D-Z-D-Z-D when he doesn't know whether he should make drones or zerglings) and his mechanics are really not very good. So yes, I agree he can't really be making such claims. It's like a very young child saying mathematics takes no intelligence because it's only about arithmetic, which is very mechanical in nature.

As someone said before, the game is still severely unexplored and we're still figuring out timings and builds, and are not yet at a level of understanding the game to the point of putting more complex/dynamic strategies into use, without ending up just getting killed by some more basic stuff. We're still figuring out how to play against said basic stuff.

However, even right now at the very high level, we can see things like deep strategic positioning/movement, mind games, calculating many variables several steps ahead and forcing advantageous situations, optimally emphasizing on dynamically created opportunities, and so on.
These alone are deeper and more demanding than whatever is required in LoL. Yes, you could draw analogies to LoL, but each one will be a very simplified form of the starcraft version.

You could argue that cheese is currently too strong and allows, sometimes, forcing a "coin flip" rather than playing an actual game of strategy. but watch how players keep exploring and come up with better and better solutions to cheese, resulting in more macro games. Destiny, would you still stand by your claim if no one ever cheesed in sc2?

Also, don't forget all the strategy that's going on outside the game. When going into a match in the GSL for example, you would probably want to "figure out" your opponent, the metagame, the maps etc, and construct strategies based on that.
You can do things like that even during the game, to a certain extent. Imagine a really sick player playing in a BO5 or BO7, playing the first couple of games in a way directly designed to examine and model his opponent's play style, strengths and weaknesses, so he could use this information to make reads and better counter his opponent next rounds. This actually happens a lot in top-level play (hello NesTea).
Again, you could make some analogies to LoL, and again, they'll be very simplified versions of the sc2 counterparts.

It is important to note that people don't have to come up with "their own" strategies, certainly not on-the-fly, in order for them to actually be considered strategies, they just have to manipulate and modify them on the fly.

From Wikipedia:
Strategy, a word of military origin, refers to a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.

By that definition, almost everything you do in sc2 is a strategy.
So, Destiny, would you be so kind to share your evidently made-up definition of the word with us?

That's about strategy. I don't know what you mean by intelligence, please clarify.

On February 08 2012 07:59 Praetorial wrote:


I honestly hope this is sarcasm, b/c what you just described takes skill.

On February 08 2012 08:19 Praetorial wrote:

Do note the highlighted bit.

Have you played the game or just theorycrafting?

On February 08 2012 08:31 Enki wrote:


Still, like many people have already pointed out, it takes far less skill to be competitive in SC2 then in Brood War. Too bad SC2 has so many casual players that it will always be drawing in huge amounts of viewers. Whether or not it actually deserves it doesn't matter. Long as tournaments see all that ad revenue generated by these people they won't stop broadcasting it.

On February 08 2012 02:35 Destiny wrote:
I'm only publically humiliating myself to the vocal minorities that only see 1 game, their legendary Starcraft 2, as the only competitive game in the world. I still think I could defend the statement that LoL (or any MOBA, honestly, especially DotA 2) requires more "skill" in terms of strategy/intelligence, BY FAR, than Starcraft 2.

On February 08 2012 07:59 hodgestar wrote:
I think when the OP says "LoL takes no skill", he doesn't mean that it literally takes NO SKILL. Even walking takes skill. He just means the skill required to play LoL at a competitive level is very low, and with that I agree.

Destiny, will you go further and claim that BW involves very little strategy and intelligence, as it's pretty much considered a "solved" game in some sense, and mechanical skill is a big deal in it, more so than in sc2?

I'm a fairly highly-ranked chess player, and to everything one can do in a game of chess, I can draw a very straightforward sc2 analogy.
Thing is, mechanical skill in sc2 serves a purpose - executing your strategy correctly.
The better mechanical skill one has, the richer his potential strategy landscape becomes.

Destiny seems to have little understanding of the game (oh god, he thinks it's ok to spam Z-D-Z-D-Z-D when he doesn't know whether he should make drones or zerglings) and his mechanics are really not very good. So yes, I agree he can't really be making such claims. It's like a very young child saying mathematics takes no intelligence because it's only about arithmetic, which is very mechanical in nature.

As someone said before, the game is still severely unexplored and we're still figuring out timings and builds, and are not yet at a level of understanding the game to the point of putting more complex/dynamic strategies into use, without ending up just getting killed by some more basic stuff. We're still figuring out how to play against said basic stuff.

However, even right now at the very high level, we can see things like deep strategic positioning/movement, mind games, calculating many variables several steps ahead and forcing advantageous situations, optimally emphasizing on dynamically created opportunities, and so on.
These alone are deeper and more demanding than whatever is required in LoL. Yes, you could draw analogies to LoL, but each one will be a very simplified form of the starcraft version.

You could argue that cheese is currently too strong and allows, sometimes, forcing a "coin flip" rather than playing an actual game of strategy. but watch how players keep exploring and come up with better and better solutions to cheese, resulting in more macro games. Destiny, would you still stand by your claim if no one ever cheesed in sc2?

Also, don't forget all the strategy that's going on outside the game. When going into a match in the GSL for example, you would probably want to "figure out" your opponent, the metagame, the maps etc, and construct strategies based on that.
You can do things like that even during the game, to a certain extent. Imagine a really sick player playing in a BO5 or BO7, playing the first couple of games in a way directly designed to examine and model his opponent's play style, strengths and weaknesses, so he could use this information to make reads and better counter his opponent next rounds. This actually happens a lot in top-level play (hello NesTea).
Again, you could make some analogies to LoL, and again, they'll be very simplified versions of the sc2 counterparts.

It is important to note that people don't have to come up with "their own" strategies, certainly not on-the-fly, in order for them to actually be considered strategies, they just have to manipulate and modify them on the fly.

From Wikipedia:
Strategy, a word of military origin, refers to a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.

By that definition, almost everything you do in sc2 is a strategy.
So, Destiny, would you be so kind to share your evidently made-up definition of the word with us?

That's about strategy. I don't know what you mean by intelligence, please clarify.

On February 08 2012 01:20 sermokala wrote:
this is a halrious thread. Destiny makes a valid point and instead of refuting it people go into a massive hissy about hows hes lost his passion and lost touch with his viewers even when you can get a dozen pros to back up his statements.

nice first post though.

On February 08 2012 04:18 Xenocide_Knight wrote:

I'm going to save this quote forever, to show all these new sc2 members of the forums, how we BW players and they are not so different. How does it feel having your game threatened by what you deem an inferior game? Count your blessings, at least your competitor isn't mocking your game by solely riding off of its success and cannibalizing your current infrastructure.

Maybe you should go talk to Idra about his opinions on sc2?

On February 08 2012 11:56 J1.au wrote:
As a BW fan, this makes me laugh.

On February 08 2012 12:37 AKcommie wrote:
If someone plays a game based off how hard it is, I feel bad for them. Video games are supposed to be fun, IMO. If you enjoy SC2, well then that's great for you but I personally do not enjoy it. I enjoy LoL, I really could care less about how "hard" it is. How the hell does one even define "hard" for that matter? The old saying comparing apples to oranges comes to mind because of how absolutely pointless it is to argue over how "hard" a game is. Some people enjoy SC2, some LoL, some DotA, some BW, it all really comes down to what you enjoy so please stop shitting over other people's games. Unless you find pleasure in insulting strangers on the internet in which case I really have no argument for you.

On February 08 2012 12:48 red_ wrote:


The same way that you feel bad for someone who plays a game based on how hard it is(I don't think that's why people play sc2, it may play a part in the decision but surely they enjoy RTS, the Starcraft universe, Blizzard games, science-fiction, etc), I feel bad that you feel insulted by someone's perception that the game you play is 'not hard' or 'not the hardest.'
.

On February 08 2012 12:55 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
tbh destiny's comment seemed more throwaway trolling than anything else. Why do people have to jump at anything a well known person says and then blow it out of proportions and make a melodramatic post about it about how they have no respect and so on.

And its not that I'm averse to discussion, but the OP is obviously a flame-baiting post and these topics degenerate into people insulting everyone else's preferred games.

On February 08 2012 05:17 Djzapz wrote:

People mostly dismiss what you say because you haven't really played SC2 at a high level so it's hard to take your word that SC2 is easy.

On February 08 2012 10:14 Gann1 wrote:
oh yeah well rock-paper-scissors takes more skill than tic-tac-toe.

On February 08 2012 14:21 Ballistixz wrote:

no, it doesnt.

On February 08 2012 19:26 TrainSamurai wrote:
Look I think we're all being stupid. The way I see it BW took a lot of time to become what it is today, give LoL some time and it will become like sc2.

On February 08 2012 20:27 LogiKalFail wrote:
honestly, comparing GSL level starcraft to LoL is just so idiotic its not even about being a fanboy its just a joke

but you know what, if you like LoL, play it not because its harder than sc2 but because it gives you more pleasure. I'd rather play the easier game which ofcourse LoL is. Hence I encourage people to play LoL, sc2 gives an experience that can be unpleasant so I understand the hate etc etc etc etc

On February 08 2012 21:21 SkelA wrote:
Who is this destiny dude and why ppl care about what he has to say?

On February 08 2012 20:51 preddo wrote:
not only does LoL takes minimal amounts of skill to play at the very top level, it's a horrible game to watch. kind of like watching a group of people painting a wall. there's always 1 obvious correct option to go for, and nothing beyond that.

On February 08 2012 20:55 LogiKalFail wrote:
@deathray ; I meant to compare best of LoL to best of sc2, because I dont feel you can judge the real "skill" of either games otherwise.

best of LoL are no way near that to sc2. also - LoL can be learnt like a book, there are only so many things that can be done (cant believe people are comparing SC2 A GAME WITH MORE THAN ONE UNIT TO CONTROL) to LoL.

On February 08 2012 22:10 preddo wrote:
BREATHING AND TAKING OVER THE WORLD ARE EQUALLY HARD IN DIFFERENT WAYS

On February 08 2012 22:27 preddo wrote:
to play SC2 competitively you need more knowledge. decision making in LoL is so fucking easy. there's always the obvious option and if you fail at understanding what it is you're just retarded. there are tons of similar abilities in LoL, but even if there weren't, it would be very easy to know all the champions if you play 1-2 times against each (as it is right now).

Magic: The Gathering takes more skill than LoL

On February 08 2012 22:28 deathray797 wrote:


It's all a matter of perspective. If your underwater without a snorkel/submarine/etc, I'm fairly sure that breathing is even harder than taking over the world.

On February 08 2012 22:28 deathray797 wrote:


It's all a matter of perspective. If your underwater without a snorkel/submarine/etc, I'm fairly sure that breathing is even harder than taking over the world.




I'm pretty sure you need more knowledge in LoL. LoL has more champions than SC2 has units. And decision making in SC2 is fairly easy too. Know why? They're the same. Knowing what to build/reacting to builds/different unit compositions is present in both games. Knowing when to commit to an attack and retreat is present in both games. Knowing what the units do is present in both games. Knowing how to position yourself is present in both games. All this decision making is present in both games, the only difference (not literally ofc) is that in SC2 you control everyone while in LoL you control 1 person.

I dont understand why people keep bringing up these retarded arguments and don't even try to think that its so easy to just counter them

On February 08 2012 20:03 deathray797 wrote:
Im going to post my opinions on this in a S (statement) and O (my opinion) format

S: LoL needs no skill, SC2 is so hard needs so much more skill and so much more apm
O: Then explain: if SC2 needs so much skill, why did I, a 15 year old kid with a disabled left hand+fingers which are very hard to move accurately, get into masters in 3 months of practicing SC2 with like 80 apm average + Show Spoiler +

S: lol does it matter? Look at the average SC2 player apm, its 200 or higher. Average LoL apm is like 30
O: Nonono the average SC2 PRO apm is 200 or higher. The average SC2 player apm is like 50

S: Either way in SC2 you need to know mechanics, builds, timings, how to multitask, how to scout and react and so much more shit
O: In LoL you need to know 92 champions, all of their abilities (around 368 in total, not including passive), jungle spawn timings, how to counterpick, how to change your build depending on the opponent's composition, etc. Not much of an argument there

S: Even if you need to know a lot, LoL is still mechanically super easy and made for retards who can't multitask
O: I won't argue with the fact that SC2 is mechanically more difficult than LoL, however, you need to learn what Elo Hell is, and that even if your mechanics are "SUPER ULTRA BEAST" from SC2 u'll still die without cooperating with teammates + Show Spoiler +

S: You're just a LoL fanboy who sucks at SC2, you're opinions don't mean shit
O: Well I did get into masters, so... And I've also played BW AND SC2 for like 4 times longer than LoL... And I never said SC2 was bad, I'm just saying all the SC2 fanboy arguments are A: Exactly the same as the BW vs SC2 ones or B: Don't make any fucking sense

On February 08 2012 23:06 Valentir wrote:
I saw LoL and comp play in same sentence, laughed. I don't see how people can compare it to Dota2 and HoN, which are the comp MOBA games. Just because it has a big price pool, meh.

On February 08 2012 22:38 preddo wrote:


i think you're protecting LoL because, as you said, you're a cripple, so you can't progress any more in SC2, so you started playing LoL which takes no thinking and no skill and got very good at it because let's be honest everybody can be a pro player in LoL if he isn't retarded and is playing with friends who are not retards. now you're trying to protect LoL so you can feel good about your delusional achievement despite being a cripple.

On February 08 2012 23:28 koreasilver wrote:

Come back when you play on a sponsored pro team on LoL please.

On February 08 2012 23:08 Candadar wrote:


I think something needs to be said as well. People say "But like 200,000 people watch all the LoL streams! It's popular!"

Fun fact: The stream is built into the game browser. So if you're on the browser of the game, changing runes or talking to friends or whatever, you're technically "watching" the stream -- even if you dont even know it's going on or watching it at all.

On February 08 2012 23:31 Uracil wrote:


That's not true. Please stop spreading false information. There's a link in the LOL client which links to the stream. You are not
automatically watching the stream.