EPTPhilosophical Thoughts On Beliefs - Page 2
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JellowLight
60 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 01 2012 18:44 JellowLight wrote: Ehm, to be completely honoust... Do you even know what you are talking about? Saying that we can't communicate with God or know what he wants. Like every existing religion has a way of communication with their God and they all have a way of knowing what that God wants from them, aka the Bible or Koran or w/e. You are a formidable troll. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On February 01 2012 17:02 IgnE wrote: How can you separate out your beliefs from "rationality"? Why would you believe something that you know to be unfalsifiable and unrelated to the evidence-based world? Read my post from before, obviously there are some beliefs you could have that would be inconsistent with evidence. We are not talking about those ones. We are talking about the second kind the ones that are 'unfalsifiable or unrelated to the evidence-based world'. To answer your question of why anyone would believe in them, because it makes them feel good? If they are unfalsifiable and unrelated to evidence based world, then one assumes they also have no bearing on your decision making when it comes to logic and rationality. Which means if you do hold one of those personal beliefs, then you would be happy (assuming thats why you hold such a personal belief) AND it would not effect your ability to reason logically. The question is not why you would believe in those, but why would you object to people holding those beliefs? In your overzealous application of Occam's razor you forget that those theories/models that do satisfy the razor are merely the more efficient/useful models, it does not make them more truthful. A consistent, but more (we could say needlessly) complicated model while containing parts that are unfalsifiable can be perfectly consistent, and for all we can tell as likely to be correct. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
Since he is non interfering, and undetectable, there is no way we can find evidence of his existence, but since the theory would suggest that it is impossible to find evidence of his existence anyway, not finding evidence of his existent would still be consistent with the belief. Everything else about the universe is the same as we understand it, so we approach is with the same logic as if this god didn't exist etc. Some people would feel better just 'knowing/believing' that something is watching over them, even if it can't interfere/make itself known in any way. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 01 2012 19:21 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Some people would feel better just 'knowing/believing' that something is watching over them, even if it can't interfere/make itself known in any way. That's a perfectly fine belief, but its also completely neutral. But it's also a belief that doesn't matter. If they truly believe it can't interfere or make itself known in anyway, I don't see how that's really comforting though. I think its more likely for someone to profess such a deistic belief to believe that the deity relates to them in some way, and that's where I have a problem. The way you present the idea, however, isn't much different from someone believing in a many worlds hypothesis. (Although there is some math that suggests the many worlds hypothesis is at least physically plausible). So I don't really take issue with the belief the way you word it. It is a moot belief. No reason to believe in moot declarations, although technically not necessarily contradictory to believe in them anyway. Why would it make someone feel better though? I think the root reason is important. If they think there might be some kind of afterlife or something that allays their fear of death, then that is a problem, because that irrational thought will affect how they live their life now. But beliefs like that that don't really matter are rarely the kinds of beliefs that people are talking about when discussing these things. Usually they are beliefs that aren't moot, and would have real effects in the world if true. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On February 01 2012 19:31 IgnE wrote: That's a perfectly fine belief, but its also completely neutral. But it's also a belief that doesn't matter. If they truly believe it can't interfere or make itself known in anyway, I don't see how that's really comforting though. I think its more likely for someone to profess such a deistic belief to believe that the deity relates to them in some way, and that's where I have a problem. The way you present the idea, however, isn't much different from someone believing in a many worlds hypothesis. Although there is some math that suggests the many worlds hypothesis is possible, if unfalsifiable at this point. So I don't really take issue with the belief the way you word it. They are moot. No reason to believe in moot declarations, although technically not necessarily contradictory to believe in them anyway. Why would it make someone feel better though? I think the root reason is important. If they think there might be some kind of afterlife or something that allays their fear of death, then that is a problem, because that irrational thought will affect how they live their life now. But beliefs like that that don't really matter are rarely the kinds of beliefs that people are talking about when discussing these things. Usually they are beliefs that aren't moot, and would have real effects in the world if true. *shrug* people find/fail to find comfort in the strangest things. People are not perfectly rational beings, if we were we would agree a heck of alot more often. Maybe the god can feel glad that you believe in them or something, so long as they can't interfere you can really assign whatever trait you like to it, it doesn't really matter, whatever floats your boat/appeals to whatever irrationality you have in you. I agree from a purely scientific standpoint it is indeed fairly meaningless, you can't use it to model anything useful that the simpler, razor compliant, version would not. But if the more complicated theory is still perfectly consistent with reality AND makes you feel happy, it'd almost be irrational not to believe that one instead. btw: apparently some people believe the example I gave, or something very close to it it's a form of deism. | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
On February 01 2012 19:40 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: I agree from a purely scientific standpoint it is indeed fairly meaningless, you can't use it to model anything useful that the simpler, razor compliant, version would not. But if the more complicated theory is still perfectly consistent with reality AND makes you feel happy, it'd almost be irrational not to believe that one instead. What really is meaningless is to approach religion from a scientific standpoint  . The goal of religion is no longer to tell us how the world was created and/or to make so called 'truth claim', i dont even think it ever was its goal ( but i agree it is sometime used a such, which is wrong IMHO). Religion nowadays is a way of life, a message on how you should live your life, a guide on what you should or should not do. You are free not to beleive in this message. You are free not to follow it. However, some people beleive in it, and act accordingly to it. They see God's hand where other people see coincidence and/or randomness. They see God influence when they see someone smile. They try they best to care about other people, they pardon, they share and they are happy to do it. Sure you migth say that you dont need religion to do it. But dont blame religious people for doing it. ( You are however allowed to blame religious people for making retarded claim about how the world was created :p ) People should stop thinking religion is stupid because there is no scientific proof behind it. It only proove that they know nothing about what religion is today. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 01 2012 20:06 Tyrran wrote: What really is meaningless is to approach religion from a scientific standpoint . The goal of religion is no longer to tell us how the world was created and/or to make so called 'truth claim', i dont even think it ever was its goal ( but i agree it is sometime used a such, which is wrong IMHO). Religion nowadays is a way of life, a message on how you should live your life, a guide on what you should or should not do. You are free not to beleive in this message. You are free not to follow it. However, some people beleive in it, and act accordingly to it. They see God's hand where other people see coincidence and/or randomness. They see God influence when they see someone smile. They try they best to care about other people, they pardon, they share and they are happy to do it. Sure you migth say that you dont need religion to do it. But dont blame religious people for doing it. ( You are however allowed to blame religious people for making retarded claim about how the world was created :p ) People should stop thinking religion is stupid because there is no scientific proof behind it. It only proove that they know nothing about what religion is today. Show me a religion that doesn't make truth claims about the world. Does it involve praying? Does it involve educated religious leaders saying what God wants? Does it involve God actually performing miracles in defiance of the laws of the physics? If it doesn't what is it? Don't call a philosophical viewpoint about life a "religion." The two are very different and it doesn't help anyone to equate philosophy with spirituality/religion. | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
On February 01 2012 19:17 IgnE wrote: Give me an example of the kind of beliefs that are unfalsifiable and unrelated to reason or logic but that someone might still want to hold with no negative repercussions. Not my belief, but for example...In Christianity they believe that you will be judged on your sins after you die. This is as good a reason as I have heard for living a moral life and being kind to strangers. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 01 2012 20:54 deathly rat wrote: Not my belief, but for example...In Christianity they believe that you will be judged on your sins after you die. This is as good a reason as I have heard for living a moral life and being kind to strangers. No that's idiotic. Besides being quite net negative for individuals, resulting in massive guilt for performing normal human activities like sexual intercourse, eating well, and indulging in life, any belief that sets out what activities qualify as sinful makes truth claims that are unverifiable and therefore spurious. Not to mention bogus and unverifiable claims about an afterlife. Did you follow the argument at all in this thread? | ||
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AMaidensWrath
Belgium206 Posts
So everyone has his own idea of god. But we can put people in different groups: Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist. People grow up in certain environments and are being taught how to perceive this godly being that they somehow are aware of. And we all are - some more than others - aware of it. If we take a look at history and different parts of the world we will notice that every society and even every community had some form of god. So we somehow know about there being something godly and we project this idea on the belief that we come in touch with through education and upbringing. That's how we end up being a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, or something else. So what can we deduce from those points? If everyone has his own idea of god, it'd be impossible to say: "God wants this/that!", since everyone has a different belief on what god wants him to do. Be aware that god is not simply a beardy person sitting somewhere and wanting us to do something. If it really was like that, then your deduction would be totally correct: It's a nigh impossible gamble to pick the right religion and then know what this 'god-person' actually wants from you. Suppose Zoroastrianism is the true religion. Most of us would've gambled on the completely wrong religion. But the idea of god is something beyond our understanding. And our religion is bassically just a way of trying to grasp that idea. With the third outcome you are fine no matter what you do obviously as long as its not human sacrifice just because, well... There's no god, you can do what you want, you have no divine being to please. You see religion just as something where you have to try to please your god. By that I assume that you're atheist/agnostic. From an outside perspective it can easily look like religious people are just trying to please some divine person. But for them they gain something from their belief. If you don't see religion as something where you can benefit and where you can gain something from then this religion is probably not the thing for you. And for religious people the religion doesn't impose rules on them, but rather gives them guidelines for an ethical and moral correct way of life. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:12 AMaidensWrath wrote:Be aware that god is not simply a beardy person sitting somewhere and wanting us to do something.. Do tell me more. What is god really like? And for religious people the religion doesn't impose rules on them, but rather gives them guidelines for an ethical and moral correct way of life. Except they go to hell if they don't follow those rules . . . | ||
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AMaidensWrath
Belgium206 Posts
Do tell me more. What is god really like? I can't answer that question. How should I know what this thing we think of as God really is like? Like I wrote some lines further down: This god-thing is something beyond our understanding. The whole 'beardy person' thing is a way of trying to understand the idea of god. And in the case of the bible, it's a way that is more than 2000 years old. Except they go to hell if they don't follow those rules . . . In that sentence I was referring to rules like the Decalogue. So you don't know anything about this god. I have my own views and ideas about God. And so have you. But neither of us can tell what it's like. | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:07 IgnE wrote: No that's idiotic. Besides being quite net negative for individuals, resulting in massive guilt for performing normal human activities like sexual intercourse, eating well, and indulging in life, any belief that sets out what activities qualify as sinful makes truth claims that are unverifiable and therefore spurious. Not to mention bogus and unverifiable claims about an afterlife. Did you follow the argument at all in this thread? This thread is full of rambling personal beliefs and nonsense logic, but when you make a simple question as you did, it is actually possible to analyse a preposition without getting distracted by the typical side tracks (as you have tried to introduce). My statement did not imply that sex, eating well or ""indulging in life" is sinful, (and out of interest neither would most Christians). next "any belief that sets out what activities qualify as sinful makes truth claims that are unverifiable" - My actions may or may not be benevolent, but they don't make truth claims. For example, it is sinful to murder and steal, and it is kind to give to charity and recycle your plastic. What truth claims am I making? "Not to mention bogus and unverifiable claims about an afterlife" On February 01 2012 19:17 IgnE wrote: Give me an example of the kind of beliefs that are unfalsifiable and unrelated to reason or logic but that someone might still want to hold with no negative repercussions. Did YOU read your own post? | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:23 AMaidensWrath wrote: I can't answer that question. How should I know what this thing we think of as God really is like? Like I wrote some lines further down: This god-thing is something beyond our understanding. The whole 'beardy person' thing is a way of trying to understand the idea of god. And in the case of the bible, it's a way that is more than 2000 years old. So you don't know anything about this god. | ||
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bITt.mAN
Switzerland3693 Posts
Is that a fair and valid summary? First of all, really shitty times bring on changes in heart. Here's a PM I sent to a guy with depression yesterday, it's highly personal but explains why I am a Christian, so now I ask for a bit of tolerance (it goes both ways brah, can't expect A to tolerate B's lack of faith if B don't tolerate A's belifs) + Show Spoiler [long] + I've been there too, 'cept it really sucked for me. Now I'm better, better than I ever have been, but the reason and method is highly personal so I didn't want to post it in public. About 10-11 months ago I was at the worst point in my life, final exams looming, nothing going right, everything was shit. I though about suicide a lot. When I'd see a rope lying around, a train passing, a bridge to jump off, kitchen knives... I've still got scars from my inner left arm from where I cut. That's not fun, don't let yourself go there. Take it or leave it, what saved me was faith, dormant at first, but rekindled when I was hit with this song (I'm real into rap): It's the gospel that caught me, Jesus saved me bro. Now I've got direction, appreciation and purpose in my life. This explains far better than I could what "The Gospel" is. If you're serious about changing your life, putting it on tracks that may seem dark at times but will always lead you in the right path, with perfect peace and company, read up on "The Gospel". http://www.whatisthegospel.org.uk/gospelbasics.html ~ P.S. Holla at me if you've got any question or reply <: And that's the great thing. It's personal, your relationship to God is unique to you. There are many problems with Organized Religion, sadly I'm not qualified to summarize them succinctly, but I can go ask a friend if you want. Overall hypocracies and inconsistencies in the Church and it's teaching gives God a bad name and turns people off, the opposite of it's intent. I can't do the apologetics to that, so I'll just reply as I would if someone asked me IRL. 1. No. He has revealed them to us, but you need to take them upon faith. 'If he wants us to know him then wouldn't he give us proof?' - He has, 'cept that in itself would never be good enough, people'd choose to dismiss it. Uncertainty can be really scary, especially on a cosmic scale, and you've got to just go with it 'till your heart is completely certain. The problem is we are human, we can't see things omnisciently, we're just not that cool. Although the Christian God is almighty, everlasting, eternal and unchanging, his Word given to us through The Bible is hard to understand, because it's a snapshot of his being taken thousands of years ago in a radically different world. If you want his doctrine, listen to some Christian Rap like my man Lecrae, Trip Lee, Shai Linne, they're spot in in the knowledge and also the delivery. 2. Yep. A point on multiple Gods: as a Christian I believe that there is one true God who is King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. He has many names in trinity God the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit, but it's one God. There are other gods too, for example people make idols of and worship many false things (sex, money, power...) but ultimately the God I worship trumps them. So why even worry about those if they're lower on the hierarchy then the all-mighty? I saw an atheist comic the other day about if God is just then we're all saved and if God is unjust we're all fucked, prettymuch the same thing as what you've said [please call me out if it's an unfair assumption on my part]. The thing is (and the Gospel message as well, please read it) we look at ourselves too highly + Show Spoiler [song lyric] +. God is loving and wholly good, but IS JUST as well, and IT ISN'T JUST to just overlook our trangressions when we've chosen to turn away from him and reject him. It wouldn't be fair if he said ' aight I know u've been faithful and obedient to me, and you haven't, but you know what second guy, all u gotta do is skate so it's no problem come on right ahead'. "ALL have fallen short of the glory of God" none of us meet his standard, but by his grace he gave his very son as our sacrifice, so that his wrath was spent on Jesus and not us. That means if we choose to accept the grace of his son, he bridges the gap we couldn't climb up (no matter the virtue of our works), he COMES DOWN to us he loves us so much. That's what's unique about Christianity. Yea that was a pretty mangled Gospel presentation :E the stuff linked above explains it better than I can. 3. As above, what would you take as 'cosmic proof'? The fact that I'm still alive ^^ ?? 4. Hence being a matter of faith. If it was default, you'd never actually CHOOSE to turn to Him and accept Him, and then you'd have no relationship. 5. A structured faith can be daunting because the image it has (the reputation of the Church) is Hope that was short\coherent enough <: questions please ask. I don't like writing a bigeass response then getting no replies, makes if feel like good posting on TL isin't worth the effort. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:25 deathly rat wrote: This thread is full of rambling personal beliefs and nonsense logic, but when you make a simple question as you did, it is actually possible to analyse a preposition without getting distracted by the typical side tracks (as you have tried to introduce). My statement did not imply that sex, eating well or ""indulging in life" is sinful, (and out of interest neither would most Christians). next "any belief that sets out what activities qualify as sinful makes truth claims that are unverifiable" - My actions may or may not be benevolent, but they don't make truth claims. For example, it is sinful to murder and steal, and it is kind to give to charity and recycle your plastic. What truth claims am I making? You claim that murdering and stealing are sinful. Sinful acts are associated with punishment in an afterlife. Setting aside your totally unsubstantiated belief in an afterlife, how do you know that there is punishment in the afterlife for such acts? I'll answer for you. You don't know, you just believe it's so with no evidence or testable hypothesis for finding out. You are just as crazy as someone who believes he is going to hell for walking on sidewalk cracks. There's literally no logical difference in the two beliefs. But I'm sure you would agree that someone who thinks he's going to hell because walking on a crack in the sidewalk is sinful is crazy. Sinful =/= Immoral. Claiming something is sinful is making a truth claim about the act. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 01 2012 21:27 bITt.mAN wrote: + Show Spoiler + OP OP, this is a very level-headed and well put religion blog, a pleasure to read. Much more than r/atheism/ silliness. To summarize your main points (makes it easier to reply to what you're saying):
Is that a fair and valid summary? First of all, really shitty times bring on changes in heart. Here's a PM I sent to a guy with depression yesterday, it's highly personal but explains why I am a Christian, so now I ask for a bit of tolerance (it goes both ways brah, can't expect A to tolerate B's lack of faith if B don't tolerate A's belifs) + Show Spoiler [long] + I've been there too, 'cept it really sucked for me. Now I'm better, better than I ever have been, but the reason and method is highly personal so I didn't want to post it in public. About 10-11 months ago I was at the worst point in my life, final exams looming, nothing going right, everything was shit. I though about suicide a lot. When I'd see a rope lying around, a train passing, a bridge to jump off, kitchen knives... I've still got scars from my inner left arm from where I cut. That's not fun, don't let yourself go there. Take it or leave it, what saved me was faith, dormant at first, but rekindled when I was hit with this song (I'm real into rap): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po3k6sPHeX0 It's the gospel that caught me, Jesus saved me bro. Now I've got direction, appreciation and purpose in my life. This explains far better than I could what "The Gospel" is. If you're serious about changing your life, putting it on tracks that may seem dark at times but will always lead you in the right path, with perfect peace and company, read up on "The Gospel". http://www.whatisthegospel.org.uk/gospelbasics.html ~ P.S. Holla at me if you've got any question or reply <: And that's the great thing. It's personal, your relationship to God is unique to you. There are many problems with Organized Religion, sadly I'm not qualified to summarize them succinctly, but I can go ask a friend if you want. Overall hypocracies and inconsistencies in the Church and it's teaching gives God a bad name and turns people off, the opposite of it's intent. I can't do the apologetics to that, so I'll just reply as I would if someone asked me IRL. 1. No. He has revealed them to us, but you need to take them upon faith. 'If he wants us to know him then wouldn't he give us proof?' - He has, 'cept that in itself would never be good enough, people'd choose to dismiss it. Uncertainty can be really scary, especially on a cosmic scale, and you've got to just go with it 'till your heart is completely certain. The problem is we are human, we can't see things omnisciently, we're just not that cool. Although the Christian God is almighty, everlasting, eternal and unchanging, his Word given to us through The Bible is hard to understand, because it's a snapshot of his being taken thousands of years ago in a radically different world. If you want his doctrine, listen to some Christian Rap like my man Lecrae, Trip Lee, Shai Linne, they're spot in in the knowledge and also the delivery. 2. Yep. A point on multiple Gods: as a Christian I believe that there is one true God who is King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. He has many names in trinity God the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit, but it's one God. There are other gods too, for example people make idols of and worship many false things (sex, money, power...) but ultimately the God I worship trumps them. So why even worry about those if they're lower on the hierarchy then the all-mighty? I saw an atheist comic the other day about if God is just then we're all saved and if God is unjust we're all fucked, prettymuch the same thing as what you've said [please call me out if it's an unfair assumption on my part]. The thing is (and the Gospel message as well, please read it) we look at ourselves too highly + Show Spoiler [song lyric] +. God is loving and wholly good, but IS JUST as well, and IT ISN'T JUST to just overlook our trangressions when we've chosen to turn away from him and reject him. It wouldn't be fair if he said ' aight I know u've been faithful and obedient to me, and you haven't, but you know what second guy, all u gotta do is skate so it's no problem come on right ahead'. "ALL have fallen short of the glory of God" none of us meet his standard, but by his grace he gave his very son as our sacrifice, so that his wrath was spent on Jesus and not us. That means if we choose to accept the grace of his son, he bridges the gap we couldn't climb up (no matter the virtue of our works), he COMES DOWN to us he loves us so much. That's what's unique about Christianity. Yea that was a pretty mangled Gospel presentation :E the stuff linked above explains it better than I can. 3. As above, what would you take as 'cosmic proof'? The fact that I'm still alive ^^ ?? 4. Hence being a matter of faith. If it was default, you'd never actually CHOOSE to turn to Him and accept Him, and then you'd have no relationship. 5. A structured faith can be daunting because the image it has (the reputation of the Church) is Hope that was short\coherent enough <: questions please ask. I don't like writing a bigeass response then getting no replies, makes if feel like good posting on TL isin't worth the effort. Do you think if you had been born in Iran you would be a Christian? | ||
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