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A very kind person, who I respect very deeply, posed a question: Is it a valuable use of time to study theoretical math today? Does it help humanity? Are there better ways to use one's time?
There are many types of math, and I can't understand most well enough to even approach the question. But I can try a little, at least with the sort of math I'm interested in...
Argument 1: Much math is practically important today. The math I am working on is not practically important today, but maybe it will be the math that is practically important tomorrow. How can we predict what will be useful? It seems like pushing math generally forward is the best response to this uncertainty.
My friend's rebuttal: + Show Spoiler +If we really want to evaluate this argument, it is important to understand the conditions under which the important math of today was done. In the case of calculus, differential equations, statistics, functional analysis, linear algebra, group theory, and numerical methods, the important results for modern work were in fact developed after their usefulness could be appreciated by an intelligent observer. There is very little honestly compelling evidence that pushing math for the sake of pushing math is likely to lead to practically important results more effectively than waiting until new math is needed and then developing it. Perhaps the most compelling case is number theory and its unexpected application to cryptography, which is still not nearly compelling enough to justify work on pure math (or even provide significant support).
Argument 2: Math is practically important today. The math I am working on is in a field that is practically important today, and not many people are qualified to work on it, so pushing the state of the art here is an excellent use of my time.
My friend's rebuttal: + Show Spoiler +Consider the actual marginal utility of advances in your field of choice, honestly. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the bulk of research effort is directed grotesquely inefficiently from a social perspective. In particular, a small number of largely artificial applications will typically support research programs which consume an incredible amount of intelligent mathematicians' time, compared to the time required to make fundamental progress on the actual problem that people care about. Here you have to make a different argument for every research program, which I would be happy to do if anyone offers a particular challenge.
My argument: + Show Spoiler +I agree with you. For the most part, applied souls dream up their advances and make them without relying on the mathematical machine. They invent the math they need to describe their ideas. Or perhaps they use a little of the pure mathematician's machine, but quickly develop it in ways that are more important to their work than the previous mathematical meanderings. I think you underestimate the role of mathematics as the grand expositor. It is the tortoise that trails forever beyond the hare of applied science. It takes the insights of applications, of calculus for example, and digests them. It reworks them, understands them, connects them, rigorizes them. The work of mathematics is not useful in your mind because a mathematician does not make a truly new applied advance. A mathematician invents and connects notations to ease the traversal, the learning, and most importantly the storage in working memory of past insights. What is the purpose of a category? An operad? A type theory? A vector bundle? The digit 0? When these languages were introduced, it could always be claimed they were worthless because the old languages could express the same content as these new languages. But somehow the new language makes it easier to conceptualize and think about the old ideas; it increases the working human RAM. And what of the poor student? He who must learn so many subjects is grateful when it is realized that many of those subjects are in fact the same: http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.0340 . Mathematics digests theories and rewrites them as branches of a common base. It makes it possible to learn more insights quickly and to communicate them to the next generation. So young applied scientists, perhaps generations later, benefit by more compactly and elegantly understanding the insights of their forebearers. Then, the mathematician dreams, they are freer to envision the next great ideas: http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.0955So why the mathematician's focus on solving specific problems? Why so much energy to characterize finite groups? It is not that these problems are important. It is that they serve as testbeds for new languages, for new characterizations of old insights. The problems of pure math are invented as challenges to understand an old applied language, not to invent a new one.
So TL why, honestly, do we fund theoretical math?
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To me, math is a language. As a physicist I need math to "speak"/prove how the world works. Theoretical mathematicians come up with new ways of speaking that can be applied to understand the world better.
To not explore theoretical math is like not inventing new words in a language. It will stagnate and die or be replaced by another, more flexible language.
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Well, my opinion kind of agrees with that of Argument 1. Consider the fact that Isaac Newton invented differential and integral calculus way ahead of his time. Even though it wasn't really all that essential back in his time, his development of this math paved the way for HUGE engineering development, and practically invented methods for other, new (I'm speaking from an aerospace engineer's point of view) engineering fields to be possible that were essentially impossible to practice prior to calculus. I'm sure the same holds true for mechanical engineering.
So basically, to sum it up, without Newton we wouldn't have any efficient methods of transportation developed yet (or at least it would be significantly delayed), and as we all know transportation is required for trade, and trade drives innovations, which drives human development. As for your friend's rebuttal, keep in mind what I said about transportation being significantly delayed without the early development of calculus. If we waited around until we needed calculus to develop it, human development would have been significantly delayed. We don't know what new innovations will be fueled with a new system of doing math. Perhaps it will help Physicists make sense of how to travel near the speed of light? Their research could then help us aerospace engineers develop new rocket engines that have high thrust but maintain a high specific impulse. Why not invent a new method of doing math early on that could make engineering even more efficient? There's no point in waiting around.
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Aside from the fact that you never know what people will discover and how it'll impact the world (which is brilliant justification in my eyes - we shouldn't ever abandon the desire to just learn more about how things work)...
Most maths can be found to have real world applications in some way. When I learned that complex numbers and quaternions had real life applications, I was convinced that maths was worth the time we put into it. Hell, if we can find uses for numbers that "don't exist" (quoted because of the arguable inaccuracies with saying they don't exist), we can find uses for other stuff some day.
Also, physics is only getting weirder
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On January 19 2012 16:39 Cuddle wrote: To me, math is a language. As a physicist I need math to "speak"/prove how the world works. Theoretical mathematicians come up with new ways of speaking that can be applied to understand the world better.
To not explore theoretical math is like not inventing new words in a language. It will stagnate and die or be replaced by another, more flexible language.
I think this a very nice simplification of my final argument. Math is language and its value is entirely as a language!
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On January 19 2012 16:53 PolskaGora wrote: Well, my opinion kind of agrees with that of Argument 1. Consider the fact that Isaac Newton invented differential and integral calculus way ahead of his time. Even though it wasn't really all that essential back in his time, his development of this math paved the way for HUGE engineering development, and practically invented methods for other, new (I'm speaking from an aerospace engineer's point of view) engineering fields to be possible that were essentially impossible to practice prior to calculus. I'm sure the same holds true for mechanical engineering.
So basically, to sum it up, without Newton we wouldn't have any efficient methods of transportation developed yet (or at least it would be significantly delayed), and as we all know transportation is required for trade, and trade drives innovations, which drives human development. As for your friend's rebuttal, keep in mind what I said about transportation being significantly delayed without the early development of calculus. If we waited around until we needed calculus to develop it, human development would have been significantly delayed. Why not invent a new method of doing math early on that could make engineering even more efficient? There's no point in waiting around.
My friend would claim that Newton invented calculus not as a mathematical exercise, but because he was trying to understand physics. The mathematics was invented to understand the motions of the world around him, aka applied physics. But nowadays we seem to develop math more "for its own sake", and less to understand things we see and experience.
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First of all, applied mathematics relies on pure/theoretical mathematics. That's how it works, right? People get stuff straight in an abstract setting, other people go ahead and adapt it to their given, (more or less) 'real world' applications, and use it. In fact, I don't think the current state of mathematics could have been achieved if everyone just looked at their own problem and just did some mathematical magic to make it work, for some theories, it is simply necessary, to see them in a bigger, broader context.
Second, mathematics needs to be swallowed, digested/processed, and spewn (? is this the correct word? :D) out again so that the next generation of mathematicians can do the same. Look at some older papers/books/whatever of famous results, it is remarkable how streamlined, elegant and fitting into the bigger context these results are formulated now, when one presents them to students, as opposed to how they were written down once. This is a necessary process, just to allow the broad mass of mathematicians to a) understand the theory and to b) put them in a greater context to, possibly, develop generalizations and (!) applications.
So, what I'm saying: Yes, it is of valuable time to study pure mathematics. Does it serve humanity and are there better ways to use one's time? Oh well, that's somewhat too deep and dodgy for me now. :-)
Edit: I just saw your last post. The fact that the foundation and/or first motivation to study a certain abstract, 'pure' problem, often comes from an application (be that physics or economy or whatever) does not change the need to consequently study the abstract problem.
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On January 19 2012 16:56 Muirhead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 16:53 PolskaGora wrote: Well, my opinion kind of agrees with that of Argument 1. Consider the fact that Isaac Newton invented differential and integral calculus way ahead of his time. Even though it wasn't really all that essential back in his time, his development of this math paved the way for HUGE engineering development, and practically invented methods for other, new (I'm speaking from an aerospace engineer's point of view) engineering fields to be possible that were essentially impossible to practice prior to calculus. I'm sure the same holds true for mechanical engineering.
So basically, to sum it up, without Newton we wouldn't have any efficient methods of transportation developed yet (or at least it would be significantly delayed), and as we all know transportation is required for trade, and trade drives innovations, which drives human development. As for your friend's rebuttal, keep in mind what I said about transportation being significantly delayed without the early development of calculus. If we waited around until we needed calculus to develop it, human development would have been significantly delayed. Why not invent a new method of doing math early on that could make engineering even more efficient? There's no point in waiting around. My friend would claim that Newton invented calculus not as a mathematical exercise, but because he was trying to understand physics. The mathematics was invented to understand the motions of the world around him, aka applied physics. But nowadays we seem to develop math more "for its own sake", and less to understand things we see and experience. Ah, you replied before I had time to reupdate my post. I think my edit has the answer you're looking for. Reread and let me know.
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On January 19 2012 16:56 Muirhead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 16:53 PolskaGora wrote: Well, my opinion kind of agrees with that of Argument 1. Consider the fact that Isaac Newton invented differential and integral calculus way ahead of his time. Even though it wasn't really all that essential back in his time, his development of this math paved the way for HUGE engineering development, and practically invented methods for other, new (I'm speaking from an aerospace engineer's point of view) engineering fields to be possible that were essentially impossible to practice prior to calculus. I'm sure the same holds true for mechanical engineering.
So basically, to sum it up, without Newton we wouldn't have any efficient methods of transportation developed yet (or at least it would be significantly delayed), and as we all know transportation is required for trade, and trade drives innovations, which drives human development. As for your friend's rebuttal, keep in mind what I said about transportation being significantly delayed without the early development of calculus. If we waited around until we needed calculus to develop it, human development would have been significantly delayed. Why not invent a new method of doing math early on that could make engineering even more efficient? There's no point in waiting around. My friend would claim that Newton invented calculus not as a mathematical exercise, but because he was trying to understand physics. The mathematics was invented to understand the motions of the world around him, aka applied physics. But nowadays we seem to develop math more "for its own sake", and less to understand things we see and experience.
I have a question:
What sort of math do we study and develop for the sake of it?
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On January 19 2012 17:00 RageOverdose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 16:56 Muirhead wrote:On January 19 2012 16:53 PolskaGora wrote: Well, my opinion kind of agrees with that of Argument 1. Consider the fact that Isaac Newton invented differential and integral calculus way ahead of his time. Even though it wasn't really all that essential back in his time, his development of this math paved the way for HUGE engineering development, and practically invented methods for other, new (I'm speaking from an aerospace engineer's point of view) engineering fields to be possible that were essentially impossible to practice prior to calculus. I'm sure the same holds true for mechanical engineering.
So basically, to sum it up, without Newton we wouldn't have any efficient methods of transportation developed yet (or at least it would be significantly delayed), and as we all know transportation is required for trade, and trade drives innovations, which drives human development. As for your friend's rebuttal, keep in mind what I said about transportation being significantly delayed without the early development of calculus. If we waited around until we needed calculus to develop it, human development would have been significantly delayed. Why not invent a new method of doing math early on that could make engineering even more efficient? There's no point in waiting around. My friend would claim that Newton invented calculus not as a mathematical exercise, but because he was trying to understand physics. The mathematics was invented to understand the motions of the world around him, aka applied physics. But nowadays we seem to develop math more "for its own sake", and less to understand things we see and experience. I have a question: What sort of math do we study and develop for the sake of it?
The calculation of homotopy groups of spheres, for instance
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On January 19 2012 16:53 PolskaGora wrote: Well, my opinion kind of agrees with that of Argument 1. Consider the fact that Isaac Newton invented differential and integral calculus way ahead of his time. Even though it wasn't really all that essential back in his time, his development of this math paved the way for HUGE engineering development, and practically invented methods for other, new (I'm speaking from an aerospace engineer's point of view) engineering fields to be possible that were essentially impossible to practice prior to calculus. I'm sure the same holds true for mechanical engineering.
So basically, to sum it up, without Newton we wouldn't have any efficient methods of transportation developed yet (or at least it would be significantly delayed), and as we all know transportation is required for trade, and trade drives innovations, which drives human development. As for your friend's rebuttal, keep in mind what I said about transportation being significantly delayed without the early development of calculus. If we waited around until we needed calculus to develop it, human development would have been significantly delayed. We don't know what new innovations will be fueled with a new system of doing math. Perhaps it will help Physicists make sense of how to travel near the speed of light? Their research could then help us aerospace engineers develop new rocket engines that have high thrust but maintain a high specific impulse. Why not invent a new method of doing math early on that could make engineering even more efficient? There's no point in waiting around.
I agree with you to a large extent. I know how my friend would react though. He would say that randomly developing mathematical theories would indeed occasionally yield an application to engineering etc. However, he would propose that: (a) The engineers would invent the math themselves when they needed it, perhaps with a lot of work. (b) The utilitarian hit to society coming from engineers' taking a while to invent this math is exceeded by the waste of talented thinkers we have working on parts of math that will (for whatever random reason) never be applied.
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On January 19 2012 17:03 Muirhead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 17:00 RageOverdose wrote:On January 19 2012 16:56 Muirhead wrote:On January 19 2012 16:53 PolskaGora wrote: Well, my opinion kind of agrees with that of Argument 1. Consider the fact that Isaac Newton invented differential and integral calculus way ahead of his time. Even though it wasn't really all that essential back in his time, his development of this math paved the way for HUGE engineering development, and practically invented methods for other, new (I'm speaking from an aerospace engineer's point of view) engineering fields to be possible that were essentially impossible to practice prior to calculus. I'm sure the same holds true for mechanical engineering.
So basically, to sum it up, without Newton we wouldn't have any efficient methods of transportation developed yet (or at least it would be significantly delayed), and as we all know transportation is required for trade, and trade drives innovations, which drives human development. As for your friend's rebuttal, keep in mind what I said about transportation being significantly delayed without the early development of calculus. If we waited around until we needed calculus to develop it, human development would have been significantly delayed. Why not invent a new method of doing math early on that could make engineering even more efficient? There's no point in waiting around. My friend would claim that Newton invented calculus not as a mathematical exercise, but because he was trying to understand physics. The mathematics was invented to understand the motions of the world around him, aka applied physics. But nowadays we seem to develop math more "for its own sake", and less to understand things we see and experience. I have a question: What sort of math do we study and develop for the sake of it? The calculation of homotopy groups of spheres, for instance Such things can be useful in statistical physics, a subject with countless extremely important applications. Unless you have studied a lot of physics you don't understand how many nontrivial results from maths they actually use.
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Math, I feel is much like most other research which are only marginally significant on the fringes of the social world...but it seems invaluable as one progresses further in almost any field. Much like a language, especially a programming language Um... overall I suppose I agree with your view...although I find myself believing applications that arise like number theory's applications to cryptography are rather invaluable....they essentially secure all of our communications... >_>
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On January 19 2012 17:12 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 17:03 Muirhead wrote:On January 19 2012 17:00 RageOverdose wrote:On January 19 2012 16:56 Muirhead wrote:On January 19 2012 16:53 PolskaGora wrote: Well, my opinion kind of agrees with that of Argument 1. Consider the fact that Isaac Newton invented differential and integral calculus way ahead of his time. Even though it wasn't really all that essential back in his time, his development of this math paved the way for HUGE engineering development, and practically invented methods for other, new (I'm speaking from an aerospace engineer's point of view) engineering fields to be possible that were essentially impossible to practice prior to calculus. I'm sure the same holds true for mechanical engineering.
So basically, to sum it up, without Newton we wouldn't have any efficient methods of transportation developed yet (or at least it would be significantly delayed), and as we all know transportation is required for trade, and trade drives innovations, which drives human development. As for your friend's rebuttal, keep in mind what I said about transportation being significantly delayed without the early development of calculus. If we waited around until we needed calculus to develop it, human development would have been significantly delayed. Why not invent a new method of doing math early on that could make engineering even more efficient? There's no point in waiting around. My friend would claim that Newton invented calculus not as a mathematical exercise, but because he was trying to understand physics. The mathematics was invented to understand the motions of the world around him, aka applied physics. But nowadays we seem to develop math more "for its own sake", and less to understand things we see and experience. I have a question: What sort of math do we study and develop for the sake of it? The calculation of homotopy groups of spheres, for instance Such things can be useful in statistical physics, a subject with countless extremely important applications. Unless you have studied a lot of physics you don't understand how many nontrivial results from maths they actually use.
I would be interested in a source for this . Are the calculations of extremely large dimensional homotopy groups valuable, or is it mostly about low (say less than 50) dimensions?
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On January 19 2012 17:14 Aletheia27 wrote: although I find myself believing applications that arise like number theory's applications to cryptography are rather invaluable....they essentially secure all of our communications... >_> Nah, the only reason we need better and better encryptions is because due to number theory the methods for breaking these encryptions also have gotten stronger and stronger. So the existence of the number theory field is needed because the number theory field exists. If it just magically stopped existing 20 years ago we wouldn't have needed the better methods since we wouldn't be able to break the things we had 20 years ago.
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I think one of the big purposes of theoretical mathematics is to provide rigour for other areas of study. As a physics PhD student, I don't have to fully understand the work theoretical mathematicians have put into differential geometry, but can use applications of their work to do general relativity, knowing that the results and concepts I am using have been rigorously proven. Statistics is another example of this, people doing applied work generally want to just plug their numbers in and get a result. It is the job of the mathematician to provide the method they are using and to make sure it is valid.
In terms of pursuing the development of maths for it it's own sake, the Binary numeral system and Boolean logic were for instance studied before the development of computers and this work helped significantly with the development of the first digital circuits. Group theory was being studied for its own sake at the same time physicists were struggling with trying to reconcile all the new elementary particles that had been discovered, collaboration here ended up producing quantum field theory and the standard model as we know it.
It is difficult to say what use a mathematical idea will have in the future, most of the work done may never be used practically. This along with slow forced incremental advances, where people have to meet quotas of papers rather than publishing only when they have a brilliant idea does result in inefficiencies. That really is the nature of research though, small incremental progress until a breakthrough or sudden change is found which results in a flurry of new work in that area.
The funding provided to theoretical mathematics is not an excessive amount, being a research mathematician is generally not a high paying or sought after position like a lawyer or doctor. There is provision for those few people who really want to study mathematics and have an aptitude for it to do so for a living.
*edit* The point of math being a language is a good one too, strong notation and/or methods are developed to solve purely academic problems. These tools however can then be used to simplify and generate other results in more applied problems.
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Don't forget about Riemann. We would never have had relativity if Einstein hadn't learned some Riemannian geometry.
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On January 19 2012 17:10 Muirhead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 16:53 PolskaGora wrote: Well, my opinion kind of agrees with that of Argument 1. Consider the fact that Isaac Newton invented differential and integral calculus way ahead of his time. Even though it wasn't really all that essential back in his time, his development of this math paved the way for HUGE engineering development, and practically invented methods for other, new (I'm speaking from an aerospace engineer's point of view) engineering fields to be possible that were essentially impossible to practice prior to calculus. I'm sure the same holds true for mechanical engineering.
So basically, to sum it up, without Newton we wouldn't have any efficient methods of transportation developed yet (or at least it would be significantly delayed), and as we all know transportation is required for trade, and trade drives innovations, which drives human development. As for your friend's rebuttal, keep in mind what I said about transportation being significantly delayed without the early development of calculus. If we waited around until we needed calculus to develop it, human development would have been significantly delayed. We don't know what new innovations will be fueled with a new system of doing math. Perhaps it will help Physicists make sense of how to travel near the speed of light? Their research could then help us aerospace engineers develop new rocket engines that have high thrust but maintain a high specific impulse. Why not invent a new method of doing math early on that could make engineering even more efficient? There's no point in waiting around. I agree with you to a large extent. I know how my friend would react though. He would say that randomly developing mathematical theories would indeed occasionally yield an application to engineering etc. However, he would propose that: (a) The engineers would invent the math themselves when they needed it, perhaps with a lot of work. (b) The utilitarian hit to society coming from engineers' taking a while to invent this math is exceeded by the waste of talented thinkers we have working on parts of math that will (for whatever random reason) never be applied. a) There wouldn't be enough time for this in the line of work. Engineers have very strict deadlines, and most of the time they are working their asses off to meet them. They don't have enough time to be bothered with inventing new math. That's the mathematician's job. The only way that could be realistically possible is if we were to gamble our time by choosing to use it on developing new math instead of doing our job in the hope that in the small chance that if we are successful it will help out in the long run, which is unrealistic and could have pretty bad consequences for our careers if you know what I mean.
b) Hmm, I'm not really sure how to respond to this, it makes sense logically but I don't think it would practically. But as I mentioned above, engineers usually only create tangible things, not new methods of doing math, so if we want to keep inventing new math efficiently it would be best if we had minds working on that separately.
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On January 19 2012 17:20 HaNdFisH wrote: I think one of the big purposes of theoretical mathematics is to provide rigour for other areas of study. As a physics PhD student, I don't have to fully understand the work theoretical mathematicians have put into differential geometry, but can use applications of their work to do general relativity, knowing that the results and concepts I am using have been rigorously proven. Statistics is another example of this, people doing applied work generally want to just plug their numbers in and get a result. It is the job of the mathematician to provide the method they are using and to make sure it is valid.
In terms of pursuing the development of maths for it it's own sake, the Binary numeral system and Boolean logic were for instance studied before the development of computers and this work helped significantly with the development of the first digital circuits. Group theory was being studied for its own sake at the same time physicists were struggling with trying to reconcile all the new elementary particles that had been discovered, collaboration here ended up producing quantum field theory and the standard model as we know it.
It is difficult to say what use a mathematical idea will have in the future, most of the work done may never be used practically. This along with slow forced incremental advances, where people have to meet quotas of papers rather than publishing only when they have a brilliant idea does result in inefficiencies. That really is the nature of research though, small incremental progress until a breakthrough or sudden change is found which results in a flurry of new work in that area.
The funding provided to theoretical mathematics is not an excessive amount, being a research mathematician is generally not a high paying or sought after position like a lawyer or doctor. There is provision for those few people who really want to study mathematics and have an aptitude for it to do so for a living.
Well the last paragraph isn't very inspiring . Any given person trying to maximize his use to society should not go into a field just because "there is provision for it," but because he believes it is more valuable than other things he can do. Now whether value should be derived from utilitarian or personal concerns is another matter...
We all agree that smart people working hard developing theories will eventually derive useful things, but much of their stuff won't be useful. My friend would say that means they should be doing something else which is more immediately useful. The physicists could have developed group theory on their own, much more slowly if it didn't already exist in math, but perhaps that societal hit is not as bad as a bunch of really smart people spending all their time on more (unpredictably) useless branches of math.
I think the value of math is not to provide a ready made language, like group theory, to physicists (though that is a useful side-effect of doing math). The main point is to study, rework, connect, digest (and part of that is your "rigorizing") the languages that are already there.
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On January 19 2012 17:22 munchmunch wrote: Don't forget about Riemann. We would never have had relativity if Einstein hadn't learned some Riemannian geometry.
But could Einstein have expressed enough of his ideas that physicists could have developed a language like Riemannian geometry themselves? Certainly it would have been a lot slower than having a ready-made language in place! But does the existence of the occasional ready-made language really justify the work on mathematics that could be spent working on other things?
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