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Inspired by the Food Network’s “Best Thing I Ever Ate”.
I get asked a lot, “what’s the best thing you’ve ever eaten?” It’s a hard question, because I’ve eaten so many delicious things, and it’s really hard to pick a clear winner given how different they are (for example, it’s just plain impossible to compare Di Fara’s pizza against Tsukiji sushi).
Recently, I went to Quintessence in Tokyo, a three-starred Michelin restaurant. As I was writing the reviews for what I had, I just could not stop writing about one dish, because it was so ridiculously good. I decided to just make a blog for one dish, and that it would be the best thing I ever ate.
“This was made from goat milk that arrived this morning from Kyoto Prefecture”, I was told as our waiter brought out this elegant plate of food. There was an obvious sense of pride in his tone and voice when he mentioned “Kyoto Prefecture”. I later confirmed with my Japanese co-workers that, indeed, Kyoto produce is regarded as the best of the bests in Japan.
The dish is called “Goat milk Bavarois with chef’s favourite olive oil and salt”. The presentation was simple: Bavarois in olive oil, topped with fleur de sel, shaved Macadamia nuts and lily bulbs… yet I knew it was special immediately after I laid my eyes upon it.
This Bavarois was fresh and light, tasted much like yogurt with a slight hint of sourness. The olive oil was instantly distinguishable as a premium, as it possessed the fragrance of the freshest oil, and offered an extremely fruity taste: a little grassy and apple-like, unctuous and refreshing at the same time. The shaved Macadamia nuts were lightly roasted and offered a rich nutty taste and a nice contrast in texture. Mixed with the nuts, the otherwise almost indistinguishable byakugo (lily bulb) had a slightly bitter and sweet taste, and a soft and slightly chewy texture. Both the nuts and the bulbs worked very well with the Bavarois, olive oil and the salt; everything made perfect sense! Every bite was a surprise. It was yin and yang in one bowl, offering superbly subtle yet distinctive tastes. I wish I could just continue eating it, for ever and ever and ever.
This was the epitome of balance, creativity and confidence. The chef opened up the stage to the ingredients he carefully selected: they were the stars, they did all the talking. This was just a perfect dish in every way possible.
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Going off on a complete tangent: on one episode of “The Best Thing I Ever Ate”, someone mentioned Sam’s Sundae from Birite Creamery in San Francisco; I was living in SF at the time, and I spent one afternoon waiting in line to try it out: chocolate ice cream with a drizzle of olive oil and topped with some salt. It was really good, and I urge you to try it out if you have a chance. This dish reminded me of it, except about a hundred times better.
  
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Never had a chance to try bavarois myself, but that looks quite good. Seems like something different and unique!
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You must be a wealthy person to be able to eat at so many fancy restaurants.
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I really love these blogs ): I wish I could do what you do, I try restaurants all the time! It's a real passion of mine.
That's an interesting meal you're describing, it seems so simple and somehow reminds me of how brie would feel in your mouth. really intrigued.
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Man I expected something pretentious but this is fantasticly over the top. Don't get me wrong, I like that you've found something you like but you sound likea a twat.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 07 2012 17:36 Hynda wrote:
Man I expected something pretentious but this is fantasticly over the top. Don't get me wrong, I like that you've found something you like but you sound likea a twat.
What he said, lol -_-
I have a strange feeling of supreme jealousy mixed with disdain. It's probably because I feel like a dish is best described by someone who actually cooks so I can understand the reasoning process behind the flavors, and thus the dish. Reading this description by someone who is solely a taster makes me feel like only half the story is told. The story is muddled and confusing.
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On January 07 2012 17:36 Hynda wrote:
Man I expected something pretentious but this is fantasticly over the top. Don't get me wrong, I like that you've found something you like but you sound likea a twat.
oh shut up mr. insecure. writing about fine dining doesn't mean he has less balls than you.
@OP
cool read
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On January 07 2012 17:59 Newbistic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 17:36 Hynda wrote:
Man I expected something pretentious but this is fantasticly over the top. Don't get me wrong, I like that you've found something you like but you sound likea a twat. What he said, lol -_- I have a strange feeling of supreme jealousy mixed with disdain. It's probably because I feel like a dish is best described by someone who actually cooks so I can understand the reasoning process behind the flavors, and thus the dish. Reading this description by someone who is solely a taster makes me feel like only half the story is told. The story is muddled and confusing.
Well it is only really oil, cream, macadamia shavings and lily bulbs so BEST FOOD EVRE might be a bit far for some ppl. AFAIK japanese dairy, is not that good but i dunno about goat milk 
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On January 07 2012 18:07 T0fuuu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 17:59 Newbistic wrote:On January 07 2012 17:36 Hynda wrote:
Man I expected something pretentious but this is fantasticly over the top. Don't get me wrong, I like that you've found something you like but you sound likea a twat. What he said, lol -_- I have a strange feeling of supreme jealousy mixed with disdain. It's probably because I feel like a dish is best described by someone who actually cooks so I can understand the reasoning process behind the flavors, and thus the dish. Reading this description by someone who is solely a taster makes me feel like only half the story is told. The story is muddled and confusing. Well it is only really oil, cream, macadamia shavings and lily bulbs so BEST FOOD EVRE might be a bit far for some ppl. AFAIK japanese dairy, is not that good but i dunno about goat milk
Even if the dish consists of only 5 basic parts, it doesn't mean it can't be an incredible dish. Sometimes it's just about executing the most basic elements as well as possible.
Although Cambium might sound pretentious to some, I think he's just very passionate about food. It's natural for people to talk at length about their interests, at the risk of alienating others.
The dish sounds amazing btw.
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I love food blogs! keep it coming cambium! btw wheres the meat?
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This looks very nice 
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Aww, I'm so hungry right now  .
But, awesome blog!
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That looks really good. It sucks we don't have Michelin starred restaurants here in China. I can't wait to go back to France for holidays.
Keep those blogs coming; I am also a food specialist and don't find your blogs pretentious at all, and your descriptions of the dishes are very good, I can totally picture them in my mouth.
5/5
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i will probably never get a chance to try this T.T
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I dunno.. the dish doesn't look that great
but then again, i've never eaten at any fancy restaurants
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I like that people with cool lives write stuff on TL
5 stars!
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Considering I just heard about the Danish chef serving people insects, ants, grass and the like and he was called the greatest chef and best restaurant on earth; I find your love of this dish more believable than Hynda did. However I share his contempt. I wouldn't stand in line for this.
Edit: It was interesting and of course- to each their own
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Or could be that he's working as a food critic or something...
Anyways, awesome blog, if I ever go to Japan I have to remember to go there and try, looks and sounds awesome.
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[Drool]
I love food and I love food blogs. That looks amazing.
[/Drool]
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It looks good. How much did it cost?
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Dude that looks seriously fancy.
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"I later confirmed with my Japanese co-workers that, indeed, Kyoto produce is regarded as the best of the bests in Japan."
"You twat."
ahahahahahahaha
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Damn that looks delicious. *Jealous*
Haha at people saying this is pretentious. Go back to your tater tots and well-done steak with ketchup.
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I love all of your food blogs. Please keep making them.
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you really did sound like one of those uppity food critics. but i know you were just trying your best to describe the dish.
love the blog and perhaps stay away from the Food Network for a few days?
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btw, how much was the dish? I'm guessing 30 bucks or so.
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Really nice description of the sort of food I can't imagine I'll ever get the chance to eat, thanks for sharing with us
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Dunno, sounds like a waste of money to me. I bet you could have had a big premium steak for how much that costed. To each his own though I guess.
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On January 08 2012 09:26 Enki wrote:
Dunno, sounds like a waste of money to me. I bet you could have had a big premium steak for how much that costed. To each his own though I guess.
i think he's for more trying out new things rather than just sticking to the same shit everyone does just because it costs less money(or the same amount of money)
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On January 08 2012 09:26 Enki wrote:
Dunno, sounds like a waste of money to me. I bet you could have had a big premium steak for how much that costed. To each his own though I guess.
I'd much rather spend the same amount of money for this dish than I would for a steak. You could have a big premium steak for <$10 if you make it yourself, which is actually really easy to do. You can also get a good steak anywhere. By contrast, this dish is probably one of a kind, and is not very feasible for the majority of us to replicate (although I could be wrong, maybe it is easy to make).
If you just think that you wouldn't enjoy this dish as much as a steak, then that's a different story.
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On January 08 2012 17:02 Slithe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:26 Enki wrote:
Dunno, sounds like a waste of money to me. I bet you could have had a big premium steak for how much that costed. To each his own though I guess. I'd much rather spend the same amount of money for this dish than I would for a steak. You could have a big premium steak for <$10 if you make it yourself, which is actually really easy to do. You can also get a good steak anywhere. By contrast, this dish is probably one of a kind, and is not very feasible for the majority of us to replicate (although I could be wrong, maybe it is easy to make). If you just think that you wouldn't enjoy this dish as much as a steak, then that's a different story.
The dish itself is probably not very difficult to reproduce.
But you go to that kind of restaurant, first, to enjoy the sick creativity of the chef (biggest mindfuck was when I went to Pic in France, 3 Michelin stars, they served an asparagus with an Arabica emulsion. At first I was like "wut asparagus with coffee, seriously ?" It was divine). This dish is really innovative, Bavarois is normally served as a desert with a fruit sauce and never made with goat milk.
Second, the taste of such a dish lies in the super premium quality of the ingredients. The chef could give you the recipe, if you don't have that super premium olive oil and dairy, and the freshest nuts, it's just gonna taste like a Bavarois with oil, which is probably not enjoyable.
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i'm transfering to culinary school. also, this post is partially just because i wanted to follow endy because he's an imposter
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On January 08 2012 19:58 Endymion wrote:
i'm transfering to culinary school. also, this post is partially just because i wanted to follow endy because he's an imposter
Haha. You're just lucky the account "Endymion" was still available when you signed up because I felt it was too long when I registered so I shortened it to "endy".
I've always wanted to join culinary school, but in France, you must join right after middle-school and become an apprentice. Now I got a masters degree in computer science and there's nothing I'd like more than opening a restaurant... Please do succeed at culinary school so there'll be at least one endy making it. I wish you the best impostor !
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Most people's favorite dish has some element of a childhood food/taste/flavor that they liked. Any of that in this for you Cambium?
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United States33388 Posts
Best thing I ever ate was probably something I had while drunk, though I can't remember now T_T
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epic drunk pie + epic drunk baked bean meals
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I don't mean to be insulting but I guess I'll be a bit bitter about this, bear with me. Lately I've been reading audiophile forums and for a while now I've been occasionally reading beer and wine enthusiast reviews.
I may be considered crude by many as when I try wine, I just shove it somewhere in the bad-good spectrum with a few particularities like one wine may have some explainable characteristics like sweetness and whatnot. Same thing with beer, some are more sweet than others and can be distinguished easily.
For instance the OP talks about a "slight hint of sourness"... This means something.
However when they go on about "instantly distinguishable as a premium", "possessed the fragrance of the freshest oil" "unctuous and refreshing at the same time", "rich nutty taste", "everything made perfect sense", "confidence" (???). -- I mean come on. I can't help to feel this is out of touch with reality and meant to give the writer some kind of "haughty" and "supercilious" stand above everyone else. I figure those people sit around tables covered with plates worth many hundred dollars with tiny glasses of expensive champagne, pinky up, talking about how Di Fara pizza is such a peasant dish, using obscene terms that belong in the 1800's.
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that looks amazing.
i am jealous ):
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This meal probably cost hundreds didnt it. Cmon tell us how much it cost.
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16986 Posts
If it was dinner, the dish was part of a $220 prix-fixe set, I believe.
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On January 09 2012 05:56 Djzapz wrote:
I don't mean to be insulting but I guess I'll be a bit bitter about this, bear with me. Lately I've been reading audiophile forums and for a while now I've been occasionally reading beer and wine enthusiast reviews.
I may be considered crude by many as when I try wine, I just shove it somewhere in the bad-good spectrum with a few particularities like one wine may have some explainable characteristics like sweetness and whatnot. Same thing with beer, some are more sweet than others and can be distinguished easily.
For instance the OP talks about a "slight hint of sourness"... This means something.
However when they go on about "instantly distinguishable as a premium", "possessed the fragrance of the freshest oil" "unctuous and refreshing at the same time", "rich nutty taste", "everything made perfect sense", "confidence" (???). -- I mean come on. I can't help to feel this is out of touch with reality and meant to give the writer some kind of "haughty" and "supercilious" stand above everyone else. I figure those people sit around tables covered with plates worth many hundred dollars with tiny glasses of expensive champagne, pinky up, talking about how Di Fara pizza is such a peasant dish, using obscene terms that belong in the 1800's.
I don't understand how the description, "nutty taste" can seem out of touch with every day life at all.
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On January 09 2012 10:20 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 05:56 Djzapz wrote:
I don't mean to be insulting but I guess I'll be a bit bitter about this, bear with me. Lately I've been reading audiophile forums and for a while now I've been occasionally reading beer and wine enthusiast reviews.
I may be considered crude by many as when I try wine, I just shove it somewhere in the bad-good spectrum with a few particularities like one wine may have some explainable characteristics like sweetness and whatnot. Same thing with beer, some are more sweet than others and can be distinguished easily.
For instance the OP talks about a "slight hint of sourness"... This means something.
However when they go on about "instantly distinguishable as a premium", "possessed the fragrance of the freshest oil" "unctuous and refreshing at the same time", "rich nutty taste", "everything made perfect sense", "confidence" (???). -- I mean come on. I can't help to feel this is out of touch with reality and meant to give the writer some kind of "haughty" and "supercilious" stand above everyone else. I figure those people sit around tables covered with plates worth many hundred dollars with tiny glasses of expensive champagne, pinky up, talking about how Di Fara pizza is such a peasant dish, using obscene terms that belong in the 1800's. I don't understand how the description, "nutty taste" can seem out of touch with every day life at all.
Well I guess the "rich" is just a little cheesy. Velvety! But no I don't think many people refer to the taste of nuts as a nutty taste. This banana split tastes bananey... no get out.
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For a "special interest" forum, it's interesting how non-accepting so many individuals on TL are of the specific interests of other individuals.
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On January 09 2012 10:40 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 10:20 koreasilver wrote:On January 09 2012 05:56 Djzapz wrote:
I don't mean to be insulting but I guess I'll be a bit bitter about this, bear with me. Lately I've been reading audiophile forums and for a while now I've been occasionally reading beer and wine enthusiast reviews.
I may be considered crude by many as when I try wine, I just shove it somewhere in the bad-good spectrum with a few particularities like one wine may have some explainable characteristics like sweetness and whatnot. Same thing with beer, some are more sweet than others and can be distinguished easily.
For instance the OP talks about a "slight hint of sourness"... This means something.
However when they go on about "instantly distinguishable as a premium", "possessed the fragrance of the freshest oil" "unctuous and refreshing at the same time", "rich nutty taste", "everything made perfect sense", "confidence" (???). -- I mean come on. I can't help to feel this is out of touch with reality and meant to give the writer some kind of "haughty" and "supercilious" stand above everyone else. I figure those people sit around tables covered with plates worth many hundred dollars with tiny glasses of expensive champagne, pinky up, talking about how Di Fara pizza is such a peasant dish, using obscene terms that belong in the 1800's. I don't understand how the description, "nutty taste" can seem out of touch with every day life at all. Well I guess the "rich" is just a little cheesy. Velvety! But no I don't think many people refer to the taste of nuts as a nutty taste. This banana split tastes bananey... no get out.
Are you serious? The description "nutty" is a very, very common word when describing taste. Same with "rich". I hear these words all the time from just daily every day life among family and friends and none of us have any special affinity in food or are involved in high cuisine or whatnot.
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On January 09 2012 11:21 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 10:40 Djzapz wrote:On January 09 2012 10:20 koreasilver wrote:On January 09 2012 05:56 Djzapz wrote:
I don't mean to be insulting but I guess I'll be a bit bitter about this, bear with me. Lately I've been reading audiophile forums and for a while now I've been occasionally reading beer and wine enthusiast reviews.
I may be considered crude by many as when I try wine, I just shove it somewhere in the bad-good spectrum with a few particularities like one wine may have some explainable characteristics like sweetness and whatnot. Same thing with beer, some are more sweet than others and can be distinguished easily.
For instance the OP talks about a "slight hint of sourness"... This means something.
However when they go on about "instantly distinguishable as a premium", "possessed the fragrance of the freshest oil" "unctuous and refreshing at the same time", "rich nutty taste", "everything made perfect sense", "confidence" (???). -- I mean come on. I can't help to feel this is out of touch with reality and meant to give the writer some kind of "haughty" and "supercilious" stand above everyone else. I figure those people sit around tables covered with plates worth many hundred dollars with tiny glasses of expensive champagne, pinky up, talking about how Di Fara pizza is such a peasant dish, using obscene terms that belong in the 1800's. I don't understand how the description, "nutty taste" can seem out of touch with every day life at all. Well I guess the "rich" is just a little cheesy. Velvety! But no I don't think many people refer to the taste of nuts as a nutty taste. This banana split tastes bananey... no get out. Are you serious? The description "nutty" is a very, very common word when describing taste. Same with "rich". I hear these words all the time from just daily every day life among family and friends and none of us have any special affinity in food or are involved in high cuisine or whatnot.
Well, admittedly that was not the thing that bothered me the most. Regardless, if you hear that some food is "rich" in some way daily every day, I suspect you've got snobbish people around you - either that or they watch too many cooking shows on TV.
What does "rich" tell you? Whatever words you come up with, they're more adequate.
On January 09 2012 11:18 Cool Cat wrote:
For a "special interest" forum, it's interesting how non-accepting so many individuals on TL are of the specific interests of other individuals.
I'm perfectly fine with the OP's interest - I just think the wording is nearly offensive because it's so weird and foggy. Who uses that vocabulary if it's not to impress and to be overbearing and pompous? I feel like that about so many food critics, wine so-called "connoisseurs", beer enthusiasts and audiophiles.
Examples of lulz from the audio world:
"The acoustic space and pinpoint timing of a Jazz band is reflected in the percussion, ensuring a particularly intimate experience."
"a sense of overall balance and enjoyment."
"sound "organic" yet are not boring"
" They have a richness of tone that very few headphones or speakers redropuce, without sounding "lush""
"offering an excellent sonic window into the music."
These were picked at random really - the things I've seen... They pick words that seem like they might fit to sound educated or something. It's fine to love your headphones, and it's fine to talk in details about how specific equipment sounds. It's fine to talk about the subtleties of some food - but don't cross in the rainbow'ey land of sugarcoating everything with fancy lingo that doesn't actually mean anything.
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On January 09 2012 09:17 Empyrean wrote:
If it was dinner, the dish was part of a $220 prix-fixe set, I believe.
=O...
*looks into wallet.... only $10.."
damn it.. lol
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10387 Posts
"sound "organic" yet are not boring
HAHAHA this got me the best, it would be great if they elaborated on what "organic" was supposed to mean tho ..
I think it's a little hasty to write it off as BS because everyone thinks very differently and could very well whole-heartedly believe in what they are saying. After all, once you spend such a huge amount of time with something, your thinking and experience with the subject becomes different from the average layman who has very little experience with it.
Music is one such example I can relate with, where experienced higher-level musicians can point out and notice things that your average person will not be able to distinguish. Things like whether or not the pitch is just a quarter-tone off, or details of how the phrasing should work, what kind of certain sound the performer needs to get out of the piano, or the subtleties of bow technique. All of which could probably sound like nonsense to someone else, but make perfect sense to me and few others.
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These words (like any vocabulary about a specialist subject), are just a kind of shorthand. If someone describes a food as rich, I know what it means: a kind of heaviness/density, and strength of flavours, which while probably great would make it hard to eat much of it. For example many Christmas puddings and certain chocolate cakes.
To address some of the music ones:
"The acoustic space and pinpoint timing of a Jazz band is reflected in the percussion, ensuring a particularly intimate experience." : Seems pretty straightforward. Being able to hear jazz percussion very clearly in the right space within the music will make things feel more intimate.
"a sense of overall balance and enjoyment." Perhaps a bit wordy: could just read "a sense of overall balance" assuming we're talking about the different levels.
"sound "organic" yet are not boring" Can't really make sense of this one out of context.
" They have a richness of tone that very few headphones or speakers reproduce without sounding "lush"" With regard to music a richness of tone suggests a full, round sound. For example the tone of a Les Paul electric guitar is rich. In this case they are talking about the whole experience. An overly lush sound would suggest the individual tones are too rich, taking away from the overall experience. For example some people don't like Herbert on Karajan's orchestral sound for this reason.
"offering an excellent sonic window into the music." Just a nice sounding synonym for: 'provides great clarity', but not really worth getting upset about.
My point is there is nothing wrong with specialist vocabulary. Some people might be trying to sound clever, but most are not, and are just looking for ways to better articulate how they feel. I don't see what's wrong with any of the ops phrases (though I'll admit I don't know what unctuous means, not being a foodie myself). They help me understand what his experience was like, as well as getting some passion across.
To stretch back to the music analogy, if I read a concert review, I don't want someone to tell me 'it sounded good'. I want them to tell me why, and with as much detail as possible.
Finally to the original OP, great blog - it inspired me to read a load of your past ones too.
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It actually boggles me that anyone actually thinks the description "rich" is a snobby word. Jesus. This is some real ignorant vitriol. I've talked with some old Sicilian grannies that had humble and meager lives before they immigrated and they are the farthest thing from snobby. They have described some stews and sauces as "rich" various times. I can't even call you anti-intellectual. This is just a removal from and ignorance of expression in the public. Pretty ridiculous.
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On January 10 2012 00:51 koreasilver wrote:
It actually boggles me that anyone actually thinks the description "rich" is a snobby word. Jesus. This is some real ignorant vitriol. I've talked with some old Sicilian grannies that had humble and meager lives before they immigrated and they are the farthest thing from snobby. They have described some stews and sauces as "rich" various times. I can't even call you anti-intellectual. This is just a removal from and ignorance of expression in the public. Pretty ridiculous.
It's a bit far fetched to suggest I'm ignorant because I think some words that are used are inadequate. Whether they're snobbish or misused common language doesn't really matter - I'm just saying they're vague BS words that people throw around. Regardless, like I said, the whole "rich" thing isn't what bothered me the most. Making a big deal out of my most shaky example and uttering garbage like "anti-intellectual" when you're talking to a masters student is just not useful. I would happily agree to disagree but you had to attack me personally. Not impressed.
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To Tal
Seems pretty straightforward. Being able to hear jazz percussion very clearly in the right space within the music will make things feel more intimate.
No, it will not make things feel more "intimate".
Just a nice sounding synonym for: 'provides great clarity', but not really worth getting upset about.
A "sonic window into the music" is just fancy wording.
My point is there is nothing wrong with specialist vocabulary. Some people might be trying to sound clever, but most are not, and are just looking for ways to better articulate how they feel. I don't see what's wrong with any of the ops phrases (though I'll admit I don't know what unctuous means, not being a foodie myself). They help me understand what his experience was like, as well as getting some passion across.
To stretch back to the music analogy, if I read a concert review, I don't want someone to tell me 'it sounded good'. I want them to tell me why, and with as much detail as possible.
There's a difference between specialist vocabulary and pseudo-specialist/pseudo-intellectualism. Now I'm not saying OP doesn't know what he's talking about, but in French we call it "beurrer épais". I suppose in English "laying it on thick". Even though a review of something shouldn't be "it was good" or "it was bad", there are limits. I really don't think "intimate" is a word that can be used to talk about the effect of timing offered by some headphones while listening to Jazz - unless you plunge deep into the world of shaky metaphors that can be interpreted in a billion ways.
I've read a lot of honest reviews of wine/beer/music/food where the writer limits himself to terms that actually have a fixed meaning rather than vague terms like "rich" which can be use to describe anything from an apple pie and it's particular taste or its overwhelming sweetness, to a soup's wide variety of different ingredients.
Do you know what it means when I say I think an omelet has a rich taste or do you have to try to guess? Do you know what's an epitome of confidence when talking about food? But like I said, I'm not completely closed off to this kind of stuff, but I sincerely think that many people go way over the line and use words wrong - both in the so called "elite" and in the small times folks. It may be because of ignorance or tradition.
One of my teachers once said "you know you're getting pretty good at what you do when people stop understanding what you're talking about". However, most of my teachers seem to understand that that's not particularly useful. I'm not an idiot, far from it although Koreasilver would disagree, but I've had texts and books to read that were written by incredibly smart men who simply didn't have the capacity to convey ideas properly. Especially in my first language, I can translate texts from "Bullshit Jargon French" to "Simplified yet specific French". However, academics have an advantage - even when they write using uncommon words, they're not fumbling around in the fancy world of poetry where things may mean whatever the reader wants.
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omg someday i'd very much like to try that. your descriptions tease me ><
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On January 09 2012 10:40 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 10:20 koreasilver wrote:On January 09 2012 05:56 Djzapz wrote:
I don't mean to be insulting but I guess I'll be a bit bitter about this, bear with me. Lately I've been reading audiophile forums and for a while now I've been occasionally reading beer and wine enthusiast reviews.
I may be considered crude by many as when I try wine, I just shove it somewhere in the bad-good spectrum with a few particularities like one wine may have some explainable characteristics like sweetness and whatnot. Same thing with beer, some are more sweet than others and can be distinguished easily.
For instance the OP talks about a "slight hint of sourness"... This means something.
However when they go on about "instantly distinguishable as a premium", "possessed the fragrance of the freshest oil" "unctuous and refreshing at the same time", "rich nutty taste", "everything made perfect sense", "confidence" (???). -- I mean come on. I can't help to feel this is out of touch with reality and meant to give the writer some kind of "haughty" and "supercilious" stand above everyone else. I figure those people sit around tables covered with plates worth many hundred dollars with tiny glasses of expensive champagne, pinky up, talking about how Di Fara pizza is such a peasant dish, using obscene terms that belong in the 1800's. I don't understand how the description, "nutty taste" can seem out of touch with every day life at all. Well I guess the "rich" is just a little cheesy. Velvety! But no I don't think many people refer to the taste of nuts as a nutty taste. This banana split tastes bananey... no get out.
nutty
buttery
fruity
salty
creamy
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On January 10 2012 07:46 Slithe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 10:40 Djzapz wrote:On January 09 2012 10:20 koreasilver wrote:On January 09 2012 05:56 Djzapz wrote:
I don't mean to be insulting but I guess I'll be a bit bitter about this, bear with me. Lately I've been reading audiophile forums and for a while now I've been occasionally reading beer and wine enthusiast reviews.
I may be considered crude by many as when I try wine, I just shove it somewhere in the bad-good spectrum with a few particularities like one wine may have some explainable characteristics like sweetness and whatnot. Same thing with beer, some are more sweet than others and can be distinguished easily.
For instance the OP talks about a "slight hint of sourness"... This means something.
However when they go on about "instantly distinguishable as a premium", "possessed the fragrance of the freshest oil" "unctuous and refreshing at the same time", "rich nutty taste", "everything made perfect sense", "confidence" (???). -- I mean come on. I can't help to feel this is out of touch with reality and meant to give the writer some kind of "haughty" and "supercilious" stand above everyone else. I figure those people sit around tables covered with plates worth many hundred dollars with tiny glasses of expensive champagne, pinky up, talking about how Di Fara pizza is such a peasant dish, using obscene terms that belong in the 1800's. I don't understand how the description, "nutty taste" can seem out of touch with every day life at all. Well I guess the "rich" is just a little cheesy. Velvety! But no I don't think many people refer to the taste of nuts as a nutty taste. This banana split tastes bananey... no get out. nutty buttery fruity salty creamy
+ Show Spoiler +
While buttery is quite ridiculous (and just like nutty, happens to be a word that means something else), fruity, salty and creamy happen to be words that can be used here - and describe something relatively precisely.
But ok, nutty isn't that bad - it's cute and stuff.
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On January 10 2012 02:46 Djzapz wrote:
]It's a bit far fetched to suggest I'm ignorant because I think some words that are used are inadequate. Whether they're snobbish or misused common language doesn't really matter - I'm just saying they're vague BS words that people throw around. Regardless, like I said, the whole "rich" thing isn't what bothered me the most. Making a big deal out of my most shaky example and uttering garbage like "anti-intellectual" when you're talking to a masters student is just not useful. I would happily agree to disagree but you had to attack me personally. Not impressed.
You did say: What does "rich" tell you? Whatever words you come up with, they're more adequate which is worth taking issue with, as actually it acts as a useful short hand. Though yes, no need for personal attacks - this is TL.
No, it will not make things feel more "intimate".
Ah, I didn't realise your problem was with intimate. But even this is OK - though it would normally be used to describe a good recording of a singer songwriter rather than jazz.
Just a nice sounding synonym for: 'provides great clarity', but not really worth getting upset about.
A "sonic window into the music" is just fancy wording.
If the meaning is clear what's wrong with a little fancy wording? Isn't that the point of synonyms, to make language richer?
There's a difference between specialist vocabulary and pseudo-specialist/pseudo-intellectualism. Now I'm not saying OP doesn't know what he's talking about, but in French we call it "beurrer épais". I suppose in English "laying it on thick". Even though a review of something shouldn't be "it was good" or "it was bad", there are limits. I really don't think "intimate" is a word that can be used to talk about the effect of timing offered by some headphones while listening to Jazz - unless you plunge deep into the world of shaky metaphors that can be interpreted in a billion ways.
I've read a lot of honest reviews of wine/beer/music/food where the writer limits himself to terms that actually have a fixed meaning rather than vague terms like "rich" which can be use to describe anything from an apple pie and it's particular taste or its overwhelming sweetness, to a soup's wide variety of different ingredients.
But that's not how rich is used. Like I said before, it's about the heavy, powerful taste.. If someone writes about a soups richness they're not trying to tell you it has a wide variety of ingredients, but rather it's taste. If they talk about a "rich variety of ingredients" that's a completely different use - meaning not just wide, but also suggesting quality, or rarity.
Do you know what it means when I say I think an omelet has a rich taste or do you have to try to guess?
I've never eaten an omelet that could be described as rich, but I would know what you mean.
Do you know what's an epitome of confidence when talking about food?
It would be better to just talk about confidence, generally I don't like the word epitome for the same reasons as you, but I do know what they mean.
But like I said, I'm not completely closed off to this kind of stuff, but I sincerely think that many people go way over the line and use words wrong - both in the so called "elite" and in the small times folks. It may be because of ignorance or tradition.
Yes, I think you're right about this, I've also seen many examples of this - but perhaps the OP isn't a great example of going way over the line. A lot of the problem isn't just words, but style of writing - excessive hyperbole winds me up the most, maybe because that's how I used to write.
One of my teachers once said "you know you're getting pretty good at what you do when people stop understanding what you're talking about". However, most of my teachers seem to understand that that's not particularly useful. I'm not an idiot, far from it although Koreasilver would disagree, but I've had texts and books to read that were written by incredibly smart men who simply didn't have the capacity to convey ideas properly. Especially in my first language, I can translate texts from "Bullshit Jargon French" to "Simplified yet specific French". However, academics have an advantage - even when they write using uncommon words, they're not fumbling around in the fancy world of poetry where things may mean whatever the reader wants.
Yeah, I disagree with the teacher. If you understand something you should be able to explain it clearly. However, this doesn't mean you need to approach the reader as absolutely ignorant, but rather as an educated person who has an interest in your subject.
Thanks for the well argued posts - I get the impression we're not actually that far away from the same position.
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On January 10 2012 10:06 Tal wrote:
Thanks for the well argued posts - I get the impression we're not actually that far away from the same position.
Likewise! I think my position is more nuanced now too - not that it's a big existential question ^^
Cheers!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20968/photos/2011.12.28.quintessence/DSC04183 (Small).jpg)
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20968/photos/2011.12.28.quintessence/DSC04191 (Small).jpg)
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20968/photos/2011.12.28.quintessence/DSC04190 (Small).jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/DJZapZ/Nutty.jpg)
