This is just an open question to the community. We know SC2 has some very technically well made maphacks that exist and are basically undetectable. I won't go too much but its possible to basically open up a production tab of the opponent, and have a minimap view of their units all in seperate windows.
I have always wondered about the "sanctity" of online events, qualifications, tournaments etc. With tournaments like NASL, TSL3, etc using online as a means to get big matches without the expense and through geographic locations it makes me wonder
Will we ever see a legit online tournament with anti-hack checks through fpv streams or cameras, or even some other novel method?
Im convinced this is one of the reasons TSL4 hasn't happened due to worries of lag and cheats or at least influenced a lot of tournaments not doing online play. I am just wondering if any org will try to make a legit online tournament.
TLDR Cliffs: Will any tournament have good online play with anti-maphack measures in 2012?
I'm pretty sure that TSL4 hasn't happened because they dont want to yet, has nothing to do with online only. Also tournaments like NASL and TSL are casted from replays so stream cheating isnt an issue.
On January 02 2012 14:06 DigitalSRM wrote: I'm pretty sure that TSL4 hasn't happened because they dont want to yet, has nothing to do with online only. Also tournaments like NASL and TSL are casted from replays so stream cheating isnt an issue.
The issue is more or less that you can easily undetected maphack in SC2 while playing online at least if no safeguards are in place from the tournament, not stream watching.
On January 02 2012 14:06 DigitalSRM wrote: I'm pretty sure that TSL4 hasn't happened because they dont want to yet, has nothing to do with online only. Also tournaments like NASL and TSL are casted from replays so stream cheating isnt an issue.
The issue is more or less that you can easily undetected maphack in SC2 while playing online at least if no safeguards are in place from the tournament, not stream watching.
Just saying to clarify.
Just so we're on the same page, how is maphacking made easier if it's online only?
On January 02 2012 14:06 DigitalSRM wrote: I'm pretty sure that TSL4 hasn't happened because they dont want to yet, has nothing to do with online only. Also tournaments like NASL and TSL are casted from replays so stream cheating isnt an issue.
The issue is more or less that you can easily undetected maphack in SC2 while playing online at least if no safeguards are in place from the tournament, not stream watching.
Just saying to clarify.
Just so we're on the same page, how is maphacking made easier if it's online only?
basically the way sc2 works with sending everyone all information means that information can be read externally straight from memory and displayed in an external window showing production tab, minimap etc. These cheats do exist in practice too.
On January 02 2012 14:06 DigitalSRM wrote: I'm pretty sure that TSL4 hasn't happened because they dont want to yet, has nothing to do with online only. Also tournaments like NASL and TSL are casted from replays so stream cheating isnt an issue.
The issue is more or less that you can easily undetected maphack in SC2 while playing online at least if no safeguards are in place from the tournament, not stream watching.
Just saying to clarify.
Just so we're on the same page, how is maphacking made easier if it's online only?
Because no one can see your screen when you're playing online (unless you're streaming), whereas offline people can?
On January 02 2012 14:14 rawb wrote: I thought that was the entire point of the referree selection in spectator mode.
Its not like broodwar hacks in that you have to basically "check out" the enemy base, even a year ago you could "lock" your camera position briefly to look around the map without a replay or observer noticing. Those are elementary though compared to external windows displaying information.
How big of a problem is this currently? Especially if the two tournaments you use as examples are NASL and TSL neither of which had any problem with maphacking. Unless your trying to say that there are professional players out their currently using maphacks during tournaments and we as spectators haven't noticed.
On January 02 2012 14:20 DigitalSRM wrote: How big of a problem is this currently? Especially if the two tournaments you use as examples are NASL and TSL neither of which had any problem with maphacking. Unless your trying to say that there are professional players out their currently using maphacks during tournaments and we as spectators haven't noticed.
No this has nothing to do with people maphacking or not as that is a silly subject that would spiral the thread out of control.
It has to do with the fact it's possible and undetectable. IF ANYONE knows anything about the history of competitive online play, if its possible well... Also this is not a "new" subject. Im just wondering if these online tournaments will start to ever go "legit" by making it impossible through some means which are available to them.
I dont this matters much to korean teams for obvious reasons though.
On January 02 2012 14:20 DigitalSRM wrote: How big of a problem is this currently? Especially if the two tournaments you use as examples are NASL and TSL neither of which had any problem with maphacking. Unless your trying to say that there are professional players out their currently using maphacks during tournaments and we as spectators haven't noticed.
No this has nothing to do with people maphacking or not as that is a silly subject that would spiral the thread out of control.
It has to do with the fact it's possible and undetectable. IF ANYONE knows anything about the history of competitive online play, if its possible well... Also this is not a "new" subject. Im just wondering if these online tournaments will start to ever go "legit" by making it impossible through some means which are available to them.
I would argue that it has a lot to do with the subject. The question you're asking is whether or not tournaments that are run online could ever be considered legit due to the possibility of maphacks being used. However this also has the assumption in it that online tournaments haven't been legit in the first place meaning that it would have to be a problem already.
Typically, online tournaments are just smaller and the players just don't prepare for it as much. There's also cross server latency issues. Imagine if there was 200 ms in LANs for one player; it'd be considered a joke and the winner would not receive as much credit.
I think it's unfair to say that online tournaments aren't "legit," but there is an opportunity to cheat. Certainly, down the road a real solution would be great, but I'm sure there would be ways around that too.
It's always going to be an issue, but hopefully when your dealing with reputable teams and players, this kind of thing would be minimal.
On January 02 2012 14:20 DigitalSRM wrote: How big of a problem is this currently? Especially if the two tournaments you use as examples are NASL and TSL neither of which had any problem with maphacking. Unless your trying to say that there are professional players out their currently using maphacks during tournaments and we as spectators haven't noticed.
No this has nothing to do with people maphacking or not as that is a silly subject that would spiral the thread out of control.
It has to do with the fact it's possible and undetectable. IF ANYONE knows anything about the history of competitive online play, if its possible well... Also this is not a "new" subject. Im just wondering if these online tournaments will start to ever go "legit" by making it impossible through some means which are available to them.
I would argue that it has a lot to do with the subject. The question you're asking is whether or not tournaments that are run online could ever be considered legit due to the possibility of maphacks being used. However this also has the assumption in it that online tournaments haven't been legit in the first place meaning that it would have to be a problem already.
No.
The maphacks are undetectable Meaning to provide proof or "omg someone is maphacking" would be purely speculative and will always remain so unless someone does a huge blunder.
On January 02 2012 14:27 Itsmedudeman wrote: Typically, online tournaments are just smaller and the players just don't prepare for it as much. There's also cross server latency issues. Imagine if there was 200 ms in LANs for one player; it'd be considered a joke and the winner would not receive as much credit.
many tournaments have had lag problems. There is no lan in SC2. I believe a lot of players have even mentioned lag at GSLs/MLGs/Blizzcons etc.
It's a valid question and it's only a matter of time before someone gets caught being suspicious in an online cup or something. But actual pros? The kind of tournaments this would affect have small prize pools. Anyone who is sponsored or who has a good streaming fanbase wouldn't risk that for a $200-$500 online cup.
There's also the fact that even with "maphacks" used against them, there are extremely good players who would still beat the hackers (even with maphacks, a bad player will not beat an elite pro).
On January 02 2012 14:27 Itsmedudeman wrote: Typically, online tournaments are just smaller and the players just don't prepare for it as much. There's also cross server latency issues. Imagine if there was 200 ms in LANs for one player; it'd be considered a joke and the winner would not receive as much credit.
many tournaments have had lag problems. There is no lan in SC2. I believe a lot of players have even mentioned lag at GSLs/MLGs/Blizzcons etc.
Of course there's technical difficulties, but they eventually get resolved if it's bad. Ping delay is something you can't get rid of and persists consistently throughout the entire tournament.
On January 02 2012 14:35 Bigtony wrote: It's a valid question and it's only a matter of time before someone gets caught being suspicious in an online cup or something. But actual pros? The kind of tournaments this would affect have small prize pools. Anyone who is sponsored or who has a good streaming fanbase wouldn't risk that for a $200-$500 online cup.
There's also the fact that even with "maphacks" used against them, there are extremely good players who would still beat the hackers (even with maphacks, a bad player will not beat an elite pro).
I don't know Sc2 has less mechanical skill to the point a maphack would give someone A humongous advantage. Just saying. Yes it does only apply to online tournaments and ladder though.
On January 02 2012 14:47 antilyon wrote: As long as it is well produced or live, I think it's valid. TSL, KSL and ESV weekly cup is the ones I'd choose as a argument.
Well what I mean is the theoretical point of having some assurance people are not cheating. Not viewership or w.e. It's for more idealistic people that a basic feeling the games are legit and there is an effort for a fair playing field.
On January 02 2012 14:01 dacthehork wrote: Im convinced this is one of the reasons TSL4 hasn't happened.
That's a hell of an assumption to make.......... You have like a single ounce of proof for this?
As more teams move to team house formats, it will get better. It's why I don't overly worry about in the Korean Weekly, almost all the players are in pro houses where if they hack some real shit will go down.
On January 02 2012 14:35 Bigtony wrote: It's a valid question and it's only a matter of time before someone gets caught being suspicious in an online cup or something. But actual pros? The kind of tournaments this would affect have small prize pools. Anyone who is sponsored or who has a good streaming fanbase wouldn't risk that for a $200-$500 online cup.
There's also the fact that even with "maphacks" used against them, there are extremely good players who would still beat the hackers (even with maphacks, a bad player will not beat an elite pro).
NASL is online until the finals. MLG Invitational regional games were also online. There were and will be big online tournaments.
Why wouldn't a pro use hack? There were a few legit players that hacked in sc1. It's just like taking steroids in baseball or hockey right? You are gaining an unfair advantage over your opponents. Except this is a lot easier and undetectable. I think its a ticking bomb thats going to damage eSports scene a lot.
On January 02 2012 14:01 dacthehork wrote: Im convinced this is one of the reasons TSL4 hasn't happened.
That's a hell of an assumption to make.......... You have like a single ounce of proof for this?
As more teams move to team house formats, it will get better. It's why I don't overly worry about in the Korean Weekly, almost all the players are in pro houses where if they hack some real shit will go down.
yes it doesnt really apply to korea.
Still its a definite temptation for a lot of european / NA players if just to get noticed.
Also noticing someone be suspsicious is pointless. MMA vs MVP at blizzcon looked like MMA was reading MVP like a book but it was purely great build order choices and study obviously. So even suspicious play doesn't really mean anything.
On January 02 2012 14:35 Bigtony wrote: It's a valid question and it's only a matter of time before someone gets caught being suspicious in an online cup or something. But actual pros? The kind of tournaments this would affect have small prize pools. Anyone who is sponsored or who has a good streaming fanbase wouldn't risk that for a $200-$500 online cup.
There's also the fact that even with "maphacks" used against them, there are extremely good players who would still beat the hackers (even with maphacks, a bad player will not beat an elite pro).
On January 02 2012 14:35 Bigtony wrote: It's a valid question and it's only a matter of time before someone gets caught being suspicious in an online cup or something. But actual pros? The kind of tournaments this would affect have small prize pools. Anyone who is sponsored or who has a good streaming fanbase wouldn't risk that for a $200-$500 online cup.
There's also the fact that even with "maphacks" used against them, there are extremely good players who would still beat the hackers (even with maphacks, a bad player will not beat an elite pro).
People should really stop using foreign BW events for proof. The difference between the scenes now and then is night and day.
You got banned from BW? No big deal. There was like a whole 1-2 real tournaments a year.
Now getting banned? Loss of sponsorship's, fanbase, thousands of tournaments, etc.
It's not the same.
I guess the better question is for the OP, can you seriously not make a thread that does nothing but start shit? This is like the 15,000th thread I have seen from you, with every one being a negative one trying to start drama.
Well, the issue is not so much big names using it but unknowns using it against big names to screw them over. It's really not that hard to beat someone with an allin in SC2, you don't have to actually outclass your opponent... at all. Likewise it makes you cheese impervious. Honestly, with a hack like OP is describing, an above average player could ruin a tournament for a pro, no problem.
If lots of average players start using hacks, then suddenly pros will have to resort to LAN only tournaments, since 3rd party servers with antihack aren't possible (a la BW).
Only solution, in big invitationals, Players have to stream privately and referees can watch it, However this is not viable as a lot of places don't have good enough connections yet.
On January 02 2012 18:26 Liquid`TLO wrote: Only solution, in big invitationals, Players have to stream privately and referees can watch it, However this is not viable as a lot of places don't have good enough connections yet.
Or have someone stand behind them. Like in SC1 maybe, a hot girl?
On January 02 2012 18:26 Liquid`TLO wrote: Only solution, in big invitationals, Players have to stream privately and referees can watch it, However this is not viable as a lot of places don't have good enough connections yet.
Or have someone stand behind them. Like in SC1 maybe, a hot girl?
or have a camera that films you, so you cant have a 2nd monitor next to you with the maphack on either^^
Honestly I think the big online/offline hybrid events like TSL and the MLG online invitational or w/e it was called are about as "legitimate" as online events will get. It's a bit unrealistic to assume your competitions participants will stream their games and play while being filmed or something. But I think as long as at least the finals are live, the benefits of cheating to win greatly diminish, because you cant cheat at a live event.
The problem of online tournaments at least for me, is the lack of delay on almost all tournament streams that broadcast games live. I'm looking at you, Playhem. It can be really frustrating for a player who wants to play fair to develop proper tournament experience to know that if their opponent so chooses they can open up the livestream in the background and gain an unfair advantage. While I doubt most serious competitors actually do this, it's more of a peace of mind issue.
TL has written its own anti-hacks on multiple occassions which has given our tournaments a clean reputation. Same for catching abuse we stayed up many nights trying to figure out all the crazy schemes in order to provide a clean ladder for TSL2. I think this is something that can be continued in SC2. Many people who believed they couldn't get caught ended up looking like fools with damaged reputations.
With SC2 being this professional, maphacking would be a death sentence to a player. The thought of doing it and possibly getting caught has to be a lot more scary than it was in BW. If we caught someone maphacking he would pretty much be banned from every major event for a long period of time, kicked from his team, removed from our stream section, etc.
On January 02 2012 18:26 Liquid`TLO wrote: Only solution, in big invitationals, Players have to stream privately and referees can watch it, However this is not viable as a lot of places don't have good enough connections yet.
Or have someone stand behind them. Like in SC1 maybe, a hot girl?
or have a camera that films you, so you cant have a 2nd monitor next to you with the maphack on either^^
On January 03 2012 00:00 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: With SC2 being this professional, maphacking would be a death sentence to a player. The thought of doing it and possibly getting caught has to be a lot more scary than it was in BW. If we caught someone maphacking he would pretty much be banned from every major event for a long period of time, kicked from his team, removed from our stream section, etc.
I know you probably didn't read the whole thread, but you're missing the point. The best players aren't the ones who are going to be cheating. The pros gain little to nothing by cheating. It's high risk. Guess who the cheaters are going to be? The cheaters are going to be all the average joes who want to either say they beat 'x' pro, or want to qualify for a tournament, or in general want to ruin the game for others. It's the masses of unknowns who don't have anything to lose and don't care about being banned from tournaments who are likely to cheat. What happens when even 5% of the players in a qualifier are hacking? You're going to get a ton of pros knocked out that shouldn't be knocked out, pros won't want to play in those events because they want security that they won't lose to cheaters, and the events fail.
Obviously invitationals can avoid the problem, but then how do new players ever make it onto the scene? The last thing we want is the SC2 tournament scene to become political.
On January 03 2012 00:00 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: With SC2 being this professional, maphacking would be a death sentence to a player. The thought of doing it and possibly getting caught has to be a lot more scary than it was in BW. If we caught someone maphacking he would pretty much be banned from every major event for a long period of time, kicked from his team, removed from our stream section, etc.
I know you probably didn't read the whole thread, but you're missing the point. The best players aren't the ones who are going to be cheating. The pros gain little to nothing by cheating. It's high risk. Guess who the cheaters are going to be? The cheaters are going to be all the average joes who want to either say they beat 'x' pro, or want to qualify for a tournament, or in general want to ruin the game for others. It's the masses of unknowns who don't have anything to lose and don't care about being banned from tournaments who are likely to cheat. What happens when even 5% of the players in a qualifier are hacking? You're going to get a ton of pros knocked out that shouldn't be knocked out, pros won't want to play in those events because they want security that they won't lose to cheaters, and the events fail.
Obviously invitationals can avoid the problem, but then how do new players ever make it onto the scene? The last thing we want is the SC2 tournament scene to become political.
Actually a fair few recognised players in bw maphacked, until they got caught. It's not that they weren't already decent players, they just wanted to make it easier for themselves. And if something is (supposedly) undetectable and gives you an advantage, that's going to be very tempting for them. I hate them.
On January 03 2012 00:00 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: With SC2 being this professional, maphacking would be a death sentence to a player. The thought of doing it and possibly getting caught has to be a lot more scary than it was in BW. If we caught someone maphacking he would pretty much be banned from every major event for a long period of time, kicked from his team, removed from our stream section, etc.
I know you probably didn't read the whole thread, but you're missing the point. The best players aren't the ones who are going to be cheating. The pros gain little to nothing by cheating. It's high risk. Guess who the cheaters are going to be? The cheaters are going to be all the average joes who want to either say they beat 'x' pro, or want to qualify for a tournament, or in general want to ruin the game for others. It's the masses of unknowns who don't have anything to lose and don't care about being banned from tournaments who are likely to cheat. What happens when even 5% of the players in a qualifier are hacking? You're going to get a ton of pros knocked out that shouldn't be knocked out, pros won't want to play in those events because they want security that they won't lose to cheaters, and the events fail.
Obviously invitationals can avoid the problem, but then how do new players ever make it onto the scene? The last thing we want is the SC2 tournament scene to become political.
Actually a fair few recognised players in bw maphacked, until they got caught. It's not that they weren't already decent players, they just wanted to make it easier for themselves. And if something is (supposedly) undetectable and gives you an advantage, that's going to be very tempting for them. I hate them.
Yes but as people have already pointed out, in BW it wasn't like you were throwing away dozens of major tournaments and hundreds of smaller ones, as well as a monster reputation and huge stream followings. It really was a tiny scene in the foreign community back then, so players like Testie didn't give damn.
I kind of agree, but I feel like tournaments that are big enough to have the prize pools they have will be able to put in the effort to find these people.
On January 03 2012 00:00 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: With SC2 being this professional, maphacking would be a death sentence to a player. The thought of doing it and possibly getting caught has to be a lot more scary than it was in BW. If we caught someone maphacking he would pretty much be banned from every major event for a long period of time, kicked from his team, removed from our stream section, etc.
I know you probably didn't read the whole thread, but you're missing the point. The best players aren't the ones who are going to be cheating. The pros gain little to nothing by cheating. It's high risk. Guess who the cheaters are going to be? The cheaters are going to be all the average joes who want to either say they beat 'x' pro, or want to qualify for a tournament, or in general want to ruin the game for others. It's the masses of unknowns who don't have anything to lose and don't care about being banned from tournaments who are likely to cheat. What happens when even 5% of the players in a qualifier are hacking? You're going to get a ton of pros knocked out that shouldn't be knocked out, pros won't want to play in those events because they want security that they won't lose to cheaters, and the events fail.
Obviously invitationals can avoid the problem, but then how do new players ever make it onto the scene? The last thing we want is the SC2 tournament scene to become political.
Actually a fair few recognised players in bw maphacked, until they got caught. It's not that they weren't already decent players, they just wanted to make it easier for themselves. And if something is (supposedly) undetectable and gives you an advantage, that's going to be very tempting for them. I hate them.
Yes but as people have already pointed out, in BW it wasn't like you were throwing away dozens of major tournaments and hundreds of smaller ones, as well as a monster reputation and huge stream followings. It really was a tiny scene in the foreign community back then, so players like Testie didn't give damn.
Sorry I don't get what you're saying? They hacked. They can go die. End of story.
EPT
