Maybe this is just my ignorance about how business / marketing works in Korea, but maybe there is a reason Korean teams oftentimes struggle to find money and sponsorship. Forgive me if I'm totally off, maybe someone more knowledgeable can post some insight?
What are ways to quantify your team's exposure / reach / etc? There are several metrics that pretty easily come to mind:
If I'm a sponsor, these are numbers that I can see and gauge how much exposure I can get, and accordingly, how much money in sponsorship I should give. There are obviously other variables involved; I.E. how good of a sales pitch you offer (I.E. why teams like EG (who have a dedicated and REALLY good sales guy, Scoots) are much more successful at getting new sponsors and bigger deals than other comparable teams like Fnatic, Mouz, Dignitas, etc), personal connections, and some other factors, such as having a player who won a world championship... but the above metrics are the most objective and easily quantifiable. Sponsors care about that, if I'm not mistaken.
So where am I going with this?
Outside of Prime (seems to be a quite popular online store) and oGs... almost all of the Korean teams don't seem to have popular or regularly updated websites, and little social media presence. Do companies in Korea not care about these things? Could this not explain why Korean teams find it hard to find consistent sponsorship?
Take Startale for example (http://startale.co.kr/). Their last news post was in February? Their facebook has ~550 fans, with only sporadic updates (Player X is streaming!).
Consider a foreign team... Quantic: over 5,000 twitter followers, ~2,500 facebook fans, and a much better looking website that actually makes it seem like they do things.
If I'm a company, who would I rather sponsor? Companies don't really know or care that Startale has Bomber, July, Squirtle, and Ace (random 4 players), who are much better and more acclaimed than Naniwa, SaSe, Flo, and iNkA (random 4 players from quantic). The players play in the same tournaments, too. If I'm writing a sponsor proposal, I would be writing, "my team played in X event that had XXX,XXX,XXX stream views over the weekend... check out that awesome exposure." Throw in a few pictures of your player on the main stage... and for most purposes, it's the same thing whether you got 20th place or 2nd.
The only way a sponsor would be able to tell that Startale's players are better is if the team had a dedicated sales guy whose sole job was to convince sponsors of just that. But really, it comes down to metrics -- Startale (again.. I"m just using them as an example) doesn't have the numbers to put in a proposal that can really turn some heads.
With the prevalence of streaming, this IS admittedly getting a bit better for them, they can compile a list of their players' streams, who all have pretty good numbers. That helps, but is it enough?
If this is the case, then why is it that Korean teams seem to have such a lackluster web and social media presence? Do Korean companies not follow the same methods as non-Korean companies?Are there other factors a Korean company looks at that I'm totally ignoring?
I'm envisioning a Korean team who: a) has a really well-designed website, with community engaging features: maybe they post unique footage of their team house (note how all the team house coverage is NOT done by the actual teams themselves, but from foreigners who go there... aka, those guys are the ones who are actually benefiting from the views and exposure), let fans get to know their players, etc. b) a team who has a very active and engaging social media presence. If a Korean team had 50,000 facebook fans, pulled in a few million viewers per month to its site (which is totally possible if they produce unique content, which is totally possible because of the team houses), and had a nice facebook/twitter, AND their players are winning major events: why would they not be able to grab sponsors? Am I missing something?
There has to be reasons why Korean teams don't seem to be making more efforts in these departments. Is it because running the houses costs so much and takes so much manpower that they don't have time or money to have good websites, writing staff, and a social media presence? I guess that argument makes sense. The next thing I wonder then, is if these Korean teams constantly gripe about not having money, and make desperation partnerships with foreign teams just for the ability to send their players to some events... why don't they focus more on the things that can help them to make money?
These are just my random thoughts... FXOBoss, or someone who knows more about this... please enlighten! I'm sure Scoots / Alex Garfield would probably have some answers too. I'm actually really curious about this.
Oh, I forgot to add: this really applies to NEW sponsors. I think this will become less of an issue as sponsors get more immersed into the game. For example... if a sponsor DID follow tournaments, and clearly recognized that value of Bomber, July, etc... over some dudes from a foreign team, he might be more inclined to push his company's marketing budget to that Korean team.
However, it seems like a lot of sponsors (outside of the typical gaming peripheral companies who seem to be very well immersed into the community) are relatively new / ignorant about the actual scene (I don't mean ignorant in a bad way.. but more like, naive?)
On December 26 2011 15:58 baoluvboa wrote: First reason I can think of is the popularity of Brood War over SC2 in term of attracting sponsors.
And BINGO was his name'o. But when/if some of these BW teams start having BW & SC2 under one team name more money will probably come into the Korean SC2 teams. Though that may end up forcing some of the existing teams to consolidate or merge to continue their existence.
edit: I personally can't wait for a big name NA non tech sponsor to attach to an esports event or team. "Dicks Sporting Goods is proud to present <xyz tournament>" Can't wait to see the mechanical keyboards hanging like baseball gloves on a giant wall!
It has little to do with marketing, and a lot to due with the fan base just not being interested in sc2. I don't get what's so hard to understand. BW is still very big, and SC2 side by side in every aspect is just not as interesting.
I don't mean to offend sc2, but it's like the XFL. Flashier, seemingly newer, but it's just a poorly redone hash with better graphics. It's made up of seemingly "failed" pro gamers, and the original game has all the money, players, and history to make it a much bigger and more attractive game.
If you're a sponsor for a big corporation in korea, WHY would you ever sponsor a SC2 team over a SC1 team that gets much, much more coverage? I think korea knows that the foreign scene has a majority of the fanbase right now, and that's why they're trying to reach out overseas to gain fans/sponsors/money.
PS: The teams DO do outreach stuff. Perhaps even more than foreign teams in some ways. You just haven't looked or heard of them because you don't live in korea.
As any kpop follower would know, we tend to see alot of sponsors endorsing products through kpop idols. So i guess esports in korea is in competition with kpop (a much stronger industry than esports).
I sometimes feel that the SC2 teams feel inadequate in comparison to the BW teams and thus "turtle," and sort of accept this little brother status that they have placed upon themselves. Now to be clear, BW teams are currently of much higher quality and value than SC2 teams. That said, everything you wrote is almost purely common sense/basic business thinking, things the managers of these teams MUST understand. Clearly, there is some kind of disconnect, either in yours and my understanding of how things work in Korea, or on the part of the teams in how they actually go about becoming "valuable" to sponsors. It's unfortunate that a team like ST with several amazing players (several in the top 20) can be so obscure.
Great post Xeris
Edit: To clarify, there ARE SC2 teams in Korea whom do very well for themselves, but there are teams with elite talent who do equally poorly in comparison to a SlayerS.
Why does it have to be a Korean company, though... For example. Intel, MSI, Steelseries, etc. Is it not more valuable to them to sponsor a Korean team (the Koreans are going to every foreign event anyway). It's not just about Korea... its their lack of ability (seemingly) to get ANY kind of sponsor.
On December 26 2011 15:52 Xeris wrote: I'm envisioning a Korean team who: a) has a really well-designed website, with community engaging features: maybe they post unique footage of their team house (note how all the team house coverage is NOT done by the actual teams themselves, but from foreigners who go there... aka, those guys are the ones who are actually benefiting from the views and exposure), let fans get to know their players, etc. b) a team who has a very active and engaging social media presence. If a Korean team had 50,000 facebook fans, pulled in a few million viewers per month to its site (which is totally possible if they produce unique content, which is totally possible because of the team houses), and had a nice facebook/twitter, AND their players are winning major events: why would they not be able to grab sponsors? Am I missing something?
You're basically describing SlayerS. Jessica knows her stuff.
My current theory is that the current teams are ran by has-been BW coaches not used to doing these business/social media stuff.
On December 26 2011 16:05 UndoneJin wrote: I sometimes feel that the SC2 teams feel inadequate in comparison to the BW teams and thus "turtle," and sort of accept this little brother status that they have placed upon themselves. Now to be clear, BW teams are currently of much higher quality and value than SC2 teams. That said, everything you wrote is almost purely common sense/basic business thinking, things the managers of these teams MUST understand. Clearly, there is some kind of disconnect, either in yours and my understanding of how things work in Korea, or on the part of the teams in how they actually go about becoming "valuable" to sponsors. It's unfortunate that a team like ST with several amazing players (several in the top 20) can be so obscure.
Great post Xeris
Right, this is exactly my point. It seems like these things are very logical... but Korean teams still don't really seem to do them or market themselves in the way I think is standard. This makes me wonder: does business work differently in Korea? What other reason is there? I don't know the answer... hoping someone can help!
On December 26 2011 15:52 Xeris wrote: I'm envisioning a Korean team who: a) has a really well-designed website, with community engaging features: maybe they post unique footage of their team house (note how all the team house coverage is NOT done by the actual teams themselves, but from foreigners who go there... aka, those guys are the ones who are actually benefiting from the views and exposure), let fans get to know their players, etc. b) a team who has a very active and engaging social media presence. If a Korean team had 50,000 facebook fans, pulled in a few million viewers per month to its site (which is totally possible if they produce unique content, which is totally possible because of the team houses), and had a nice facebook/twitter, AND their players are winning major events: why would they not be able to grab sponsors? Am I missing something?
You're basically describing SlayerS. Jessica knows her stuff.
My current theory is that the current teams are ran by has-been BW coaches not used to doing these business/social media stuff.
You're right.. I totally forgot SlayerS... they seem to be doing quite well for themselves OO! Jessica is really awesome, especially after meeting her a few times at MLGs and NASL!
The answer is most Korean team managers are TOP NOTCH managers and not so much great at business. It's the reason Jessica is looked at as a bit demanding from a lot of Koreans, she is pretty much the only manager that knows how to run a business.
Imagine is Boxer was the one doing all the coaching and the marketing and PR and etc..... SlayerS would still be well off (because of Boxer) but I seriously doubt they would be doing as well as they have without her.
Aside for SlayerS and FXO I can't think one Korean team that has a proper person handling that stuff. They are really stubborn too, I contacted all the teams months ago about a way to get a lot of their gear to NA at a great profit to them and they all just made up unrealistic numbers that "someone else offered". I had one tell me they had an offer for $30k a month and they were starting in a week. That team STILL has no offer, no major sponsors, and their gear is STILL not available (or has no apparent plans).
You have a bunch of player managers handling marketing and shit and refuse any help from the outside. Also an inflated sense of value from the coL/MvP (and oGs/SK) thing is pretty strong in Korea atm, and everyone thinks they are worth a bazillion dollars for being Korean.
On December 26 2011 16:03 Itsmedudeman wrote: It has little to do with marketing, and a lot to due with the fan base just not being interested in sc2. I don't get what's so hard to understand. BW is still very big, and SC2 side by side in every aspect is just not as interesting.
I don't mean to offend sc2, but it's like the XFL. Flashier, seemingly newer, but it's just a poorly redone hash with better graphics. It's made up of seemingly "failed" pro gamers, and the original game has all the money, players, and history to make it a much bigger and more attractive game.
If you're a sponsor for a big corporation in korea, WHY would you ever sponsor a SC2 team over a SC1 team that gets much, much more coverage? I think korea knows that the foreign scene has a majority of the fanbase right now, and that's why they're trying to reach out overseas to gain fans/sponsors/money.
PS: The teams DO do outreach stuff. Perhaps even more than foreign teams in some ways. You just haven't looked or heard of them because you don't live in korea.
This is not a BW vs SC2 issue. This is about why SC2 Korean teams fair poorly business-wise than SC2 Foreigner teams. It got to the point where half the korean teams are now financially dependent on Foreigner teams. The one that is most financially sound (and performed substantially better on field) is the one sold off to a foreign held company (FXO).
On December 26 2011 15:52 Xeris wrote: I'm envisioning a Korean team who: a) has a really well-designed website, with community engaging features: maybe they post unique footage of their team house (note how all the team house coverage is NOT done by the actual teams themselves, but from foreigners who go there... aka, those guys are the ones who are actually benefiting from the views and exposure), let fans get to know their players, etc. b) a team who has a very active and engaging social media presence. If a Korean team had 50,000 facebook fans, pulled in a few million viewers per month to its site (which is totally possible if they produce unique content, which is totally possible because of the team houses), and had a nice facebook/twitter, AND their players are winning major events: why would they not be able to grab sponsors? Am I missing something?
You're basically describing SlayerS. Jessica knows her stuff.
My current theory is that the current teams are ran by has-been BW coaches not used to doing these business/social media stuff.
You don't think that perhaps maybe SlayerS success in the marketing area has a lot to do with you know.. Boxer? The greatest esports figure in history by quite a margin?
On December 26 2011 16:06 Xeris wrote: Why does it have to be a Korean company, though... For example. Intel, MSI, Steelseries, etc. Is it not more valuable to them to sponsor a Korean team (the Koreans are going to every foreign event anyway). It's not just about Korea... its their lack of ability (seemingly) to get ANY kind of sponsor.
Intel has snsd. Apart from the big companies, marketing strategies are hardly used beyond simple advertising of their product, so they dont feel that a sponsor will help their business much, rather it will be a waste of time and money.
I think we are also forgetting the language barrier. The good things about the urrent foreign sponsors of sc2 teams (being Zowie (ST) intel and Razer (SlayerS) Is that they are esports focused and also the teams had/have people who speak english and are able to communicate to sponsors.
The only other sc2 team with major sponsors is TSL which all their sponsors have Korean divisions. TSL also has a reliable name, Coach Lee is a known figure in bw so he is a easy and safe choice for sponsors.
I just woke up and am extremely tired. So sorry if this seems vague. just wanted to make the point though that maybe the reason Korean teams don't get foreign sponsors is simply because they lack the avenue of communication.
On December 26 2011 16:03 Itsmedudeman wrote: It has little to do with marketing, and a lot to due with the fan base just not being interested in sc2. I don't get what's so hard to understand. BW is still very big, and SC2 side by side in every aspect is just not as interesting.
I don't mean to offend sc2, but it's like the XFL. Flashier, seemingly newer, but it's just a poorly redone hash with better graphics. It's made up of seemingly "failed" pro gamers, and the original game has all the money, players, and history to make it a much bigger and more attractive game.
If you're a sponsor for a big corporation in korea, WHY would you ever sponsor a SC2 team over a SC1 team that gets much, much more coverage? I think korea knows that the foreign scene has a majority of the fanbase right now, and that's why they're trying to reach out overseas to gain fans/sponsors/money.
PS: The teams DO do outreach stuff. Perhaps even more than foreign teams in some ways. You just haven't looked or heard of them because you don't live in korea.
This is not a BW vs SC2 issue. This is about why SC2 Korean teams fair poorly business-wise than SC2 Foreigner teams. It got to the point where half the korean teams are now financially dependent on Foreigner teams. The one that is most financially sound (and performed substantially better on field) is the one sold off to a foreign held company (FXO).
To me, this doesn't make any sense. First of all, can we both agree that the target market is the foreign scene? The korean scene is just too small to gain good sponsors from. So of course since the foreign scene has most of the audience/market, which teams are going to fare better? The korean ones or the foreign ones? Let's face it, the reason certain foreign players are more popular isn't because of marketing, it's because they're foreign, and can speak english, plain and simple.
Also, I think the korean teams are just realizing this, that the fanbase is much larger outside korea, and that's why they're reaching out more and more often. They mention foreign fans in interviews, try to attend outside tournaments as much as possible, and now even stream on TL daily. I think this began to happen gradually after MLG Columbus, and then a lot more after Blizzcon.
On December 26 2011 16:03 Itsmedudeman wrote: It has little to do with marketing, and a lot to due with the fan base just not being interested in sc2. I don't get what's so hard to understand. BW is still very big, and SC2 side by side in every aspect is just not as interesting.
I don't mean to offend sc2, but it's like the XFL. Flashier, seemingly newer, but it's just a poorly redone hash with better graphics. It's made up of seemingly "failed" pro gamers, and the original game has all the money, players, and history to make it a much bigger and more attractive game.
If you're a sponsor for a big corporation in korea, WHY would you ever sponsor a SC2 team over a SC1 team that gets much, much more coverage? I think korea knows that the foreign scene has a majority of the fanbase right now, and that's why they're trying to reach out overseas to gain fans/sponsors/money.
PS: The teams DO do outreach stuff. Perhaps even more than foreign teams in some ways. You just haven't looked or heard of them because you don't live in korea.
This is not a BW vs SC2 issue. This is about why SC2 Korean teams fair poorly business-wise than SC2 Foreigner teams. It got to the point where half the korean teams are now financially dependent on Foreigner teams. The one that is most financially sound (and performed substantially better on field) is the one sold off to a foreign held company (FXO).
To me, this doesn't make any sense. First of all, can we both agree that the target market is the foreign scene? The korean scene is just too small to gain good sponsors from. So of course since the foreign scene has most of the audience/market, which teams are going to fare better? The korean ones or the foreign ones? Let's face it, the reason certain foreign players are more popular isn't because of marketing, it's because they're foreign, and can speak english, plain and simple.
I don't necessarily agree with you because in order for "Korean" SC2 teams to stay viable, they have to have impact IN Korea. It's up to them to attract viewers and fans, you are sort of pushing the same idea that some of these teams themselves have, essentially "We can't compete so don't even try."
On December 26 2011 16:03 Itsmedudeman wrote: It has little to do with marketing, and a lot to due with the fan base just not being interested in sc2. I don't get what's so hard to understand. BW is still very big, and SC2 side by side in every aspect is just not as interesting.
I don't mean to offend sc2, but it's like the XFL. Flashier, seemingly newer, but it's just a poorly redone hash with better graphics. It's made up of seemingly "failed" pro gamers, and the original game has all the money, players, and history to make it a much bigger and more attractive game.
If you're a sponsor for a big corporation in korea, WHY would you ever sponsor a SC2 team over a SC1 team that gets much, much more coverage? I think korea knows that the foreign scene has a majority of the fanbase right now, and that's why they're trying to reach out overseas to gain fans/sponsors/money.
PS: The teams DO do outreach stuff. Perhaps even more than foreign teams in some ways. You just haven't looked or heard of them because you don't live in korea.
This is not a BW vs SC2 issue. This is about why SC2 Korean teams fair poorly business-wise than SC2 Foreigner teams. It got to the point where half the korean teams are now financially dependent on Foreigner teams. The one that is most financially sound (and performed substantially better on field) is the one sold off to a foreign held company (FXO).
An argument you could make is that they do poorly because BW exists in Korea. Foreign SC2 teams don't have to compete with other games because SC2 is arguably the largest game. Even other popular esports like counter strike and LOL are in a different genre whereas Brood War competes directly with SC2. If you owned a Korean company, it would be better to invest in Brood War since it is bigger, more popular, shown on tv, and more localized whereas if you were a company outside of Korea, you would invest in SC2 since it is the most popular esport currently.
I think it is because sc2 teams cannot adapt out of the bw model that was so successful for so long. One giant parent company sponsor who is happy enough to have their name attached to a uniform on cable tv. However, in the new market with a game that is not yet on tv (no gom player doesnt count) the same companies arent going to jump. All these same esports people that operated under one model for ten years cannot or will not change to an aggressive marketing strategy. Some teams are, such as slayers, others arent, like startale.
Combine this with the fact that the korean managers and teams squandered their chance of exclusivity with the foreign market in the ten years of bw, and they are all starting from scratch, with the language barrier preventing in their way from competing with the big foreignboys. Team partnerships are a small small start.
I could go off on this for a while, so ill stop...
Boxer gets it man. July doesn't. Golden mouse doesnt mean anything in sc2 worlds.
Pretty interesting discussion. I was wondering though Xeris, are there Korean website alternatives like cyworld that the teams might be more active on? Just wondering if you knew.
On December 26 2011 16:39 Subversive wrote: Pretty interesting discussion. I was wondering though Xeris, are they Korean website alternatives like cyworld that the teams might be more active on? Just wondering if you knew.
I'd imagine some have that? But I don't know for sure !
almost all of the Korean teams don't seem to have popular or regularly updated websites, and little social media presence. Do companies in Korea not care about these things?
I can tell you that companies in Japan don't care about these sns metric things, fwiw.
Did anyone already say that their target consumers are not Koreans or that you can get a wider scope of western consumers and Europeans by getting someone who attends more events and achieves relatively high to gain a minimum of exposure (being in interviews to thank the sponsors and mention their name so the association of: "This company supports E-Sports" is publicly made and established.
That being said, all the Korean sponsors are tied in Brood War and all the new sponsors are seeing the shift in popularity go towards English-speaking and foreign countries, not their own. It's only fair to sponsor the westernized teams and then have the KR players transfer over rather than sponsor a Korean team and potentially never get out of the country (especially when during interviews or chatter, they are less verbal or able to say what they want without an interpreter nearby).
So: give it to the western teams, have them do all their work and advertising, reap exposure and namesake.
These metrics work in the west. Do they apply in Korea? Do you even know for sure?
of course they work anywhere, its a form of exposure
if its worth their time getting views/etc is a different topic altogether
Oh, so any exposure is good exposure. So the local mom and pop music shop in town should take out a 50 foot tall billboard in the middle of Time Square, right?
More to point, do you think Team EG should be all over Cyworld and RenRen? Do you think the number of followers they have on each would impress SteelSeries or Monster Energy Drinks?
do you think language barrier and korean culture has something to do with this?
Remember BW pro teams has never operated in the multiple sponsorship model. Most teams just belong to a major corporation and run with it. They dont have to find a guy who run around and do PR stuff. Good players will get exposure to fans once they win vs some better players and then they will have fan cafe( afro toss is a good example). The point is: They have never thought that they will have to operate like EG. In fact, i dont even think they know such a huge amounts of sponsors is available outside of korea.
Their english isnt that good either. Even thought cella english is really good, its no where close to the level that you could do business with and he is on of the best english speaker among the korean pro-scene. Even GomTV have trouble in communicating with MLG i dont see a pro team such as startale can just sent and email to pepsi and ask for sponsorship. Recall how only very recently they know about the streaming for money system, I bet that they really dont have a clue on how the sponsorship model exist outside of Korea.
It would be great for somebody to stand between and link sponsors with koreans pro team together and do all the PR for them. Thats what the partnership model is all about: Slayers-EG Liquid-oGs Quantic-IM or now Startale...
These metrics work in the west. Do they apply in Korea? Do you even know for sure?
of course they work anywhere, its a form of exposure
if its worth their time getting views/etc is a different topic altogether
Oh, so any exposure is good exposure. So the local mom and pop music shop in town should take out a 50 foot tall billboard in the middle of Time Square, right?
More to point, do you think Team EG should be all over Cyworld and RenRen? Do you think the number of followers they have on each would impress SteelSeries or Monster Energy Drinks?
almost all of the Korean teams don't seem to have popular or regularly updated websites, and little social media presence. Do companies in Korea not care about these things?
I can tell you that companies in Japan don't care about these sns metric things, fwiw.
This. Asian business in general haven't started ultilizing this whole internet phenomenon yet
On December 26 2011 16:30 Manifesto7 wrote: I think it is because sc2 teams cannot adapt out of the bw model that was so successful for so long. One giant parent company sponsor who is happy enough to have their name attached to a uniform on cable tv. However, in the new market with a game that is not yet on tv (no gom player doesnt count) the same companies arent going to jump. All these same esports people that operated under one model for ten years cannot or will not change to an aggressive marketing strategy. Some teams are, such as slayers, others arent, like startale.
Combine this with the fact that the korean managers and teams squandered their chance of exclusivity with the foreign market in the ten years of bw, and they are all starting from scratch, with the language barrier preventing in their way from competing with the big foreignboys. Team partnerships are a small small start.
I could go off on this for a while, so ill stop...
Boxer gets it man. July doesn't. Golden mouse doesnt mean anything in sc2 worlds.
I agree, its an entirely different playing field and most of the Koreans teams aren't adapting, I think this has some overlap and helps explain some of what Diamond says, but I think what Diamond says is more of the symptoms, not so much the illness.
On December 26 2011 16:05 UndoneJin wrote: I sometimes feel that the SC2 teams feel inadequate in comparison to the BW teams and thus "turtle," and sort of accept this little brother status that they have placed upon themselves. Now to be clear, BW teams are currently of much higher quality and value than SC2 teams. That said, everything you wrote is almost purely common sense/basic business thinking, things the managers of these teams MUST understand. Clearly, there is some kind of disconnect, either in yours and my understanding of how things work in Korea, or on the part of the teams in how they actually go about becoming "valuable" to sponsors. It's unfortunate that a team like ST with several amazing players (several in the top 20) can be so obscure.
Great post Xeris
Right, this is exactly my point. It seems like these things are very logical... but Korean teams still don't really seem to do them or market themselves in the way I think is standard. This makes me wonder: does business work differently in Korea? What other reason is there? I don't know the answer... hoping someone can help!
From what I've read I think its mostly KESPA's influence. KESPA handled all the funding for all the teams for so long, that the western model of individual teams searching for individual sponsers never fully developed. So while we have guys like you and Sir Scoots who have been chasing sponsers for funding for years, Korea doesn't have any equivilents. SC2 Korea managers like Coach Lee and Slayers Jessica started off with 0 experience, and didn't have anyone to get advice from.
They are getting better though. Nobody was really sponsered on SC2 release, but now when you look at player uniforms most players are walking billboards just like in the west.
makes no sense. you're talking about international companies...why would they ever consider sponsoring a korean team over an international team...unless you're stating the obvious?
there is absolutely no reason to sponsor a korean team as an international company simply because the main focus of those players will always be GSL. A korean broadcast.
On December 26 2011 17:34 hyptonic wrote: makes no sense. you're talking about international companies...why would they ever consider sponsoring a korean team over an international team...unless you're stating the obvious?
there is absolutely no reason to sponsor a korean team as an international company simply because the main focus of those players will always be GSL. A korean broadcast.
Yea because Koreans don't ever go to international comps. Like maybe MLG, IPL, Homestory Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, etc right?
Koreans are ultra popular and short of EG or Liquid any Korean team besides ZeNEX will offer much more exposure for the money then a international team. Plus the GSL exposure alone is more then most events.
Edit: This assumption is based off the fact that Koreans were not asking way too much money for said sponsorship, which they seem to be.
On December 26 2011 16:03 Itsmedudeman wrote: It has little to do with marketing, and a lot to due with the fan base just not being interested in sc2. I don't get what's so hard to understand. BW is still very big, and SC2 side by side in every aspect is just not as interesting.
I don't mean to offend sc2, but it's like the XFL. Flashier, seemingly newer, but it's just a poorly redone hash with better graphics. It's made up of seemingly "failed" pro gamers, and the original game has all the money, players, and history to make it a much bigger and more attractive game.
If you're a sponsor for a big corporation in korea, WHY would you ever sponsor a SC2 team over a SC1 team that gets much, much more coverage? I think korea knows that the foreign scene has a majority of the fanbase right now, and that's why they're trying to reach out overseas to gain fans/sponsors/money.
PS: The teams DO do outreach stuff. Perhaps even more than foreign teams in some ways. You just haven't looked or heard of them because you don't live in korea.
hooly shit you really hit the nail on the head here.
things like appealing to the foreign market through social networking/fan videos are trying to reach toward foreign sponsors that have already given their support to korean teams as well as foreign ones. (beyond steelseries, intel, etc.). who else is left? what big or well known company is going to sponsor a non top 3 team (they all already have well known sponsors) in a foreign country for a 2nd banana game (in that country)?
Xeris, what makes you think these korean teams don't have any money? The ones that seem to be struggling, TSL for one, are out due to internal problems that might be a result of lack of money but we can't say for sure.
I just think koreans are horrible at PR. We had tasteless casting bw matches for years with the majority not noticing it. Than there was the ESportsTV thing were suddenly youtube vods got blocked and no one knew what was going on and the scene had to investigate what was going on only to find out that these guys want to provide streams for for foreigners... Maybe it is also a problem that almost no one speaks decent english so it is of course a problem to interact with foreign teams and international sponsors.
On December 26 2011 17:42 TylerThaCreator wrote: The ones that seem to be struggling, TSL for one, are out due to internal problems that might be a result of lack of money but we can't say for sure.
Who said TSL is struggling?
Sure, they don't have a huge player pool like SlayerS does, but there's really no ground to say they're struggling financially.
On December 26 2011 17:42 TylerThaCreator wrote: The ones that seem to be struggling, TSL for one, are out due to internal problems that might be a result of lack of money but we can't say for sure.
Who said TSL is struggling?
Sure, they don't have a huge player pool like SlayerS does, but there's really no ground to say they're struggling financially.
Quite the contrary even, the pickup of Polt shows they are one of the more well off teams. However there is only so far one team can go when one guy handles every single thing from talent scouting to marketing. TSL seems to have hit that glass ceiling and it can't compete with Western teams.
On December 26 2011 17:34 hyptonic wrote: makes no sense. you're talking about international companies...why would they ever consider sponsoring a korean team over an international team...unless you're stating the obvious?
there is absolutely no reason to sponsor a korean team as an international company simply because the main focus of those players will always be GSL. A korean broadcast.
Yea because Koreans don't ever go to international comps. Like maybe MLG, IPL, Homestory Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, etc right?
Koreans are ultra popular and short of EG or Liquid any Korean team besides ZeNEX will offer much more exposure for the money then a international team. Plus the GSL exposure alone is more then most events.
yes but foreign teams will always get more players to international events. many of those events are invite only and those with qualifiers only send 4 koreans max usually. the exposure at international events will always be more for foreign teams.
Take a look at SlayerS a team that has an international sponsor. Their exposure at international events includes roughly 5 players across 7 events. They won one of those events. Compare that with mouz, a smaller european team. They team has some of the bigger names in the scene (even white-ra at one point) and have sent 5 players to dozens of events. Holding victories for at least 2 and top 3 placings for many others. Obviously the situation with SlayerS is a bit different, with famous players and all, but I'm looking at the exposure side of things. In international events mouz has had better exposure if you're looking at it from a sponsor's perspective. Korean teams seldom go to international events in comparison to foreign teams even when the are monetarily stable.
and if we're talking about exposure streaming would be a large factor in it and foreigners that aren't EG/Liquid consistently get substantially better numbers than koreans. players like dimaga,sen,thorzain,destiny,mana get quadruple the viewers of greats like july, bomber, and the winner of the last GSL jjakji.
On December 26 2011 17:42 TylerThaCreator wrote: The ones that seem to be struggling, TSL for one, are out due to internal problems that might be a result of lack of money but we can't say for sure.
Who said TSL is struggling?
Sure, they don't have a huge player pool like SlayerS does, but there's really no ground to say they're struggling financially.
Quite the contrary even, the pickup of Polt shows they are one of the more well off teams. However there is only so far one team can go when one guy handles every single thing from talent scouting to marketing. TSL seems to have hit that glass ceiling and it can't compete with Western teams.
Coach Lee is quite the man though.
(P.S. Coach Lee if you're reading this, you can totally hire me to do......something)
On December 26 2011 17:34 hyptonic wrote: makes no sense. you're talking about international companies...why would they ever consider sponsoring a korean team over an international team...unless you're stating the obvious?
there is absolutely no reason to sponsor a korean team as an international company simply because the main focus of those players will always be GSL. A korean broadcast.
Yea because Koreans don't ever go to international comps. Like maybe MLG, IPL, Homestory Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, etc right?
Koreans are ultra popular and short of EG or Liquid any Korean team besides ZeNEX will offer much more exposure for the money then a international team. Plus the GSL exposure alone is more then most events.
yes but foreign teams will always get more players to international events. many of those events are invite only and those with qualifiers only send 4 koreans max usually. the exposure at international events will always be more for foreign teams.
Take a look at SlayerS a team that has an international sponsor. Their exposure at international events includes roughly 5 players across 7 events. They won one of those events. Compare that with mouz, a smaller european team. They team has some of the bigger names in the scene (even white-ra at one point) and have sent 5 players to dozens of events. Holding victories for at least 2 and top 3 placings for many others. Obviously the situation with SlayerS is a bit different, with famous players and all, but I'm looking at the exposure side of things. In international events mouz has had better exposure if you're looking at it from a sponsor's perspective. Korean teams seldom go to international events in comparison to foreign teams even when the are monetarily stable.
and if we're talking about exposure streaming would be a large factor in it and foreigners that aren't EG/Liquid consistently get substantially better numbers than koreans. players like dimaga,sen,thorzain,destiny,mana get quadruple the viewers of greats like july, bomber, and the winner of the last GSL jjakji.
However how many televised games did those players receive? How often at an MLG is the game with the Korean in it picked and the ones with a coL player skipped? Same with every event that does not do 100% coverage. People watch Koreans, they follow them, and they have a genuine interest in them. Every event has figured out the trick, if you have Koreans, they get stream priority (aside for some matches like IdrA/Jinro or something of that scale). The same foreign teams that send out a lot of players often only get several overall televised games (short of a player making a deep deep deep run). It's something that has been bitched about every MLG is how you see all these impressive foreigner runs but instead you are watching Puzzle play some drunk Diamond level Protoss. Although that very game was hella cool, there was probably 4-5 skipped foreigner matches of higher quality overall, but lacked the Korean X factor.
The proof is the Korean Weekly, small ass prize pool, huge viewership for the prize scale.
Even events like Playhem daily's and TL Opens are won by Koreans with great frequency now, they are far from isolated anymore.
I guarantee any company that sponsors a team like TSL will get more ROI then most foreign teams, but not all of course. Again however this is all moot as there's the inflated self worth issue that means that a sponsor cannot sponsor said team for a price that would generate an ROI.
It's all a mess, but it's something I have observed in my time working with the teams, and I am not the only one that has seen this inside of Korean E-Sports with this opinion.
On December 26 2011 17:42 TylerThaCreator wrote: The ones that seem to be struggling, TSL for one, are out due to internal problems that might be a result of lack of money but we can't say for sure.
Who said TSL is struggling?
Sure, they don't have a huge player pool like SlayerS does, but there's really no ground to say they're struggling financially.
Quite the contrary even, the pickup of Polt shows they are one of the more well off teams. However there is only so far one team can go when one guy handles every single thing from talent scouting to marketing. TSL seems to have hit that glass ceiling and it can't compete with Western teams.
Coach Lee is quite the man though.
(P.S. Coach Lee if you're reading this, you can totally hire me to do......something)
Coach Lee is without a doubt my favorite coach I have spoke with and is sooooo awesome. I can not give him enough praise for what it's worth.
While what you've said is wise and mostly true, there is a bigger reason for it.
As someone who has dealt very closely with two large teams Korean now, I like to think that I've been given unique insight - along with people like Diamond, Xeris, etc. - into the situation over there.
The problem, in my opinion, is this: many Korean teams are using Brood War/Korea-centric marketing philosophies in a significantly different StarCraft 2 world. Manfesto7 said it well: teams in Brood War were blessed with secure, constant exposure on cable TV. This audience is so large that other PR/marketing efforts were flat out unneeded most of the time. To this day, most Brood War teams don't use social media much at all.
Now, whether through denial or ignorance, a lot of StarCraft 2 teams don't take heed of the fact that the GSL audience is significantly smaller, but also more global. To say Korean sponsors aren't interested in SC2 at all due to its small size isn't really the main point (it's not "all or nothing"; sponsors are often more than happy to give less money for smaller exposure). The point is, I've seen Korean teams only try to market their Korean GSL exposure/results and nothing else at all.
Now, granted, a lot of Korean companies have literally no interest in reaching global markets, so you could say that selling one's global exposure to these companies would be fruitless. This is somewhat true, and instead, Korean teams should be trying to secure deals with American/foreign companies. The problem is, none of them are.
So yeah, while poor social media coverage is no doubt hindering the Korean scene's effort to get out of massive debt, it's not their biggest flaw. The bigger issue is that these teams see foreign events and viewer numbers as a 'nice bonus', when in reality they are the foundations of the entire SC2 scene right now.
also korean sponsors in general are still very cautious before investing into sc2 because they aren't sure how it's going to end up or if it will continue to grow (compared to sc1 etc)...there are countless ways for companies to throw around their marketing budget efficiently, its up to sc2 teams to convince them not the other way around...
as far as the foreign world who has seen the sudden explosion of 'e-sports' with sc2, all the events, streaming etc,etc and all the $ these big companies have to throw around its not a surprise to see everyone wanting to jump into it
theres a bit of luck involved to, as it's hard to quantify marketing value precisely...sometimes it's just one high-up in the company who a team wants to sponsor them being a sick nerd having a random passion for the 'e-sports scene' to push a deal through
also getting a big sponsorship in korea is extremely difficult. i am unaware how hard it is for non-koreans but from what i've seen so far for sc2 teams it's a very long drawn out difficult detail oriented process that even after months of good talks the plug could randomly be pulled for whatever reason just because of the whim of a ceo (the process of filling small sub-sponsor roles for limited amounts is obv way easier)
all that is common sense
what might not be common sense, is that the vast majority of people 'in charge' and who are in the position to be getting sponsors for their teams in korea are all complete retards with no experience, people skills, and know how to make it happen
On December 26 2011 17:42 TylerThaCreator wrote: The ones that seem to be struggling, TSL for one, are out due to internal problems that might be a result of lack of money but we can't say for sure.
Who said TSL is struggling?
Sure, they don't have a huge player pool like SlayerS does, but there's really no ground to say they're struggling financially.
Quite the contrary even, the pickup of Polt shows they are one of the more well off teams. However there is only so far one team can go when one guy handles every single thing from talent scouting to marketing. TSL seems to have hit that glass ceiling and it can't compete with Western teams.
Coach Lee is quite the man though.
(P.S. Coach Lee if you're reading this, you can totally hire me to do......something)
Coach Lee is without a doubt my favorite coach I have spoke with and is sooooo awesome. I can not give him enough praise for what it's worth.
On December 26 2011 17:42 TylerThaCreator wrote: The ones that seem to be struggling, TSL for one, are out due to internal problems that might be a result of lack of money but we can't say for sure.
Who said TSL is struggling?
Sure, they don't have a huge player pool like SlayerS does, but there's really no ground to say they're struggling financially.
Quite the contrary even, the pickup of Polt shows they are one of the more well off teams. However there is only so far one team can go when one guy handles every single thing from talent scouting to marketing. TSL seems to have hit that glass ceiling and it can't compete with Western teams.
Coach Lee is quite the man though.
(P.S. Coach Lee if you're reading this, you can totally hire me to do......something)
Coach Lee is without a doubt my favorite coach I have spoke with and is sooooo awesome. I can not give him enough praise for what it's worth.
I figure I add this to the discussion, foreign teams don't really need to invest in a teamhouse and the PCs to bring into the house (FXOBoss has mentioned that those can be really really expensive), food, etc.
Also Korean teams tend to be a lot bigger than foreign SC2 teams.
But yeah, it's surprising that with how popular the GSL is, there aren't really many foreign sponsors going to Korea.
On December 26 2011 17:48 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: I just think koreans are horrible at PR. We had tasteless casting bw matches for years with the majority not noticing it. Than there was the ESportsTV thing were suddenly youtube vods got blocked and no one knew what was going on and the scene had to investigate what was going on only to find out that these guys want to provide streams for for foreigners... Maybe it is also a problem that almost no one speaks decent english so it is of course a problem to interact with foreign teams and international sponsors.
I just think Germans are horrible posters (see what I did there).
Define: Majority, because I assure you majority that were interested in BW at the time has noticed it. In all seriousness, BW to Korea is what is American Football is to USA; there are people who enjoyed BW, many but in comparison to the large fanbase in Korea, it was virtually none. I would say Americans are bad at PR regarding spread of American Football as an international sport. However, that statement sounds silly because Americans do not need to spread internationally because they can do whatever (sponsor and so on) in USA. I'd also like to add, I do think there is a communication issue, but not something you cannot get around.
I see the problem being, the teams are very small. If you look at EG, FXO or any other company, they don't just do SC2, they are a company based on many game genres and other business ventures. If you look at the Korean teams now, they are pretty much from scratch, or from the dead WC3 scene, or non-pro BW clan. They do not have the resources, nor is it any easier to get one because of BW's dominance in the esports industry in Korea. They have to reach out to the foreign market, unless SC2 in Korea becomes the or one of major esports game.
I just think it's an issue of Korea vs Rest of World. Foreign team has a chance to be sponsored by international corporations but a lot of Koreans just have Korea to work with. I would imagine that a lot of sponsors prefer to sponsor foreign teams because foreigners identify more with foreign players so the target audience will be better advertised to if you put your logo on something they're familiar more familiar with.
TL;DR Foreigner team = foreigner target audience = more money
On December 26 2011 17:34 hyptonic wrote: makes no sense. you're talking about international companies...why would they ever consider sponsoring a korean team over an international team...unless you're stating the obvious?
there is absolutely no reason to sponsor a korean team as an international company simply because the main focus of those players will always be GSL. A korean broadcast.
Yea because Koreans don't ever go to international comps. Like maybe MLG, IPL, Homestory Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, etc right?
Koreans are ultra popular and short of EG or Liquid any Korean team besides ZeNEX will offer much more exposure for the money then a international team. Plus the GSL exposure alone is more then most events.
yes but foreign teams will always get more players to international events. many of those events are invite only and those with qualifiers only send 4 koreans max usually. the exposure at international events will always be more for foreign teams.
Take a look at SlayerS a team that has an international sponsor. Their exposure at international events includes roughly 5 players across 7 events. They won one of those events. Compare that with mouz, a smaller european team. They team has some of the bigger names in the scene (even white-ra at one point) and have sent 5 players to dozens of events. Holding victories for at least 2 and top 3 placings for many others. Obviously the situation with SlayerS is a bit different, with famous players and all, but I'm looking at the exposure side of things. In international events mouz has had better exposure if you're looking at it from a sponsor's perspective. Korean teams seldom go to international events in comparison to foreign teams even when the are monetarily stable.
and if we're talking about exposure streaming would be a large factor in it and foreigners that aren't EG/Liquid consistently get substantially better numbers than koreans. players like dimaga,sen,thorzain,destiny,mana get quadruple the viewers of greats like july, bomber, and the winner of the last GSL jjakji.
However how many televised games did those players receive? How often at an MLG is the game with the Korean in it picked and the ones with a coL player skipped? Same with every event that does not do 100% coverage. People watch Koreans, they follow them, and they have a genuine interest in them. Every event has figured out the trick, if you have Koreans, they get stream priority (aside for some matches like IdrA/Jinro or something of that scale). The same foreign teams that send out a lot of players often only get several overall televised games (short of a player making a deep deep deep run). It's something that has been bitched about every MLG is how you see all these impressive foreigner runs but instead you are watching Puzzle play some drunk Diamond level Protoss. Although that very game was hella cool, there was probably 4-5 skipped foreigner matches of higher quality overall, but lacked the Korean X factor.
The proof is the Korean Weekly, small ass prize pool, huge viewership for the prize scale.
Even events like Playhem daily's and TL Opens are won by Koreans with great frequency now, they are far from isolated anymore.
I guarantee any company that sponsors a team like TSL will get more ROI then most foreign teams, but not all of course. Again however this is all moot as there's the inflated self worth issue that means that a sponsor cannot sponsor said team for a price that would generate an ROI.
It's all a mess, but it's something I have observed in my time working with the teams, and I am not the only one that has seen this inside of Korean E-Sports with this opinion.
So essentially
no business sense
failure to grasp the value of social media
arrogance/inflated self-worth
stubborn/ refusal to move from the BW model
If these factors are correct (a big if), is Korean SC2 condemned? Are we gonna see a second wave of mergers and acquisitions in a few months when the only independent korean team is the SlayerS?
On December 26 2011 17:34 hyptonic wrote: makes no sense. you're talking about international companies...why would they ever consider sponsoring a korean team over an international team...unless you're stating the obvious?
there is absolutely no reason to sponsor a korean team as an international company simply because the main focus of those players will always be GSL. A korean broadcast.
Yea because Koreans don't ever go to international comps. Like maybe MLG, IPL, Homestory Cup, IEM, Dreamhack, etc right?
Koreans are ultra popular and short of EG or Liquid any Korean team besides ZeNEX will offer much more exposure for the money then a international team. Plus the GSL exposure alone is more then most events.
yes but foreign teams will always get more players to international events. many of those events are invite only and those with qualifiers only send 4 koreans max usually. the exposure at international events will always be more for foreign teams.
Take a look at SlayerS a team that has an international sponsor. Their exposure at international events includes roughly 5 players across 7 events. They won one of those events. Compare that with mouz, a smaller european team. They team has some of the bigger names in the scene (even white-ra at one point) and have sent 5 players to dozens of events. Holding victories for at least 2 and top 3 placings for many others. Obviously the situation with SlayerS is a bit different, with famous players and all, but I'm looking at the exposure side of things. In international events mouz has had better exposure if you're looking at it from a sponsor's perspective. Korean teams seldom go to international events in comparison to foreign teams even when the are monetarily stable.
and if we're talking about exposure streaming would be a large factor in it and foreigners that aren't EG/Liquid consistently get substantially better numbers than koreans. players like dimaga,sen,thorzain,destiny,mana get quadruple the viewers of greats like july, bomber, and the winner of the last GSL jjakji.
However how many televised games did those players receive? How often at an MLG is the game with the Korean in it picked and the ones with a coL player skipped? Same with every event that does not do 100% coverage. People watch Koreans, they follow them, and they have a genuine interest in them. Every event has figured out the trick, if you have Koreans, they get stream priority (aside for some matches like IdrA/Jinro or something of that scale). The same foreign teams that send out a lot of players often only get several overall televised games (short of a player making a deep deep deep run). It's something that has been bitched about every MLG is how you see all these impressive foreigner runs but instead you are watching Puzzle play some drunk Diamond level Protoss. Although that very game was hella cool, there was probably 4-5 skipped foreigner matches of higher quality overall, but lacked the Korean X factor.
The proof is the Korean Weekly, small ass prize pool, huge viewership for the prize scale.
Even events like Playhem daily's and TL Opens are won by Koreans with great frequency now, they are far from isolated anymore.
I guarantee any company that sponsors a team like TSL will get more ROI then most foreign teams, but not all of course. Again however this is all moot as there's the inflated self worth issue that means that a sponsor cannot sponsor said team for a price that would generate an ROI.
It's all a mess, but it's something I have observed in my time working with the teams, and I am not the only one that has seen this inside of Korean E-Sports with this opinion.
This is only half true, but otherwise completely in the wrong as far as the point goes. People don't watch for koreans, they watch for korean vs. foreigners. Most of the fans want to see if the foreigners can beat the koreans as well, and when the skill gap is huge or it just becomes a stomp, that's when the viewership dies down. That's the biggest thing here. GSL has figured it out too and that's why they're bringing over foreigners, handing out free spots, and putting in bottom of the barrel code A players straight into the up and downs because they're foreigners and they want foreign attention.
What does prize pool have to do with the success of ESV and the Korean weekly? You think 5k deterred MLG fans? Prize scale means absolute shit in terms of viewer attraction, unless of course it's MUCH bigger than normal. People watched for certain key, popular players that were competing, and also because the time slot was pretty good.
Koreans are getting more exposure, but relative to their skill level it's far, far behind what the foreigners still get because of barriers. Look at the B tier koreans that went over to foreign teams and have some decent success, at least if they were compared to foreign results, yet many people don't even know who the hell they are or where they came from.
Want more proof? Look to your right at Sen's stream. 5k viewers, and always sticks around 2k-3k. Bomber on a good day? About 2k, but otherwise around 1k-1.5k average. Both are pretty exposed and well-known players, both speak a bit of english, and Bomber even talks a lot to the viewers in chat.
I think some of the teams are incredibly short-sighted in that they are trying to market purely to the Korean market. It's borderline moronic IMO. At least GOM is smart enough to put more and more effort into the international side. Seriously though, these teams see us foreigner fans dropping $10 to $20 a month to watch the GSL and $100 lump sums, they should get a clue that there is some decent amount of eyeballs and disposable income that can be taken advantage of. The business acumen of a large number of the Korean teams seems very weak to me.
It is in a Korean team's best interests to avoid international events and focus 100% on attaining the highest possible skill level and results in the GSL.
One day the big Korean sponsors from BW are going to switch over to SC2. It is inevitable. When that happens they will look to sponsor the best teams. And that isn't going to be the teams with the best international success. International success actually hinders progress in the GSL (travel, jetlag, lack of practice etc. etc.).
I mean look what happens to Koreans when they get a taste of foreign events? They all want to drop everything and start competing. You give that to your players and they spend less time improving.
Personally I think it is in their best interests to focus 100% on practicing within Korea and attaining the best possible GSL results.
That isn't to say that is their game plan. I firmly believe they just aren't accustomed to the way foreign e-sports works or how to deal with big international sponsors. But I don't see any pressing need to make it happen. While they can sustain their team houses and players they're in a good spot.
Why is SlayerS put forward as such a success story in this thread? I'd hardly say a lackluster facebook page with 7k likes and no dedicated team site is impressive. They don't have dedicated writers and other content producers and don't offer anything like the amount of information a Western team do. I understand you guys jizm over boxer and jessica and yea jessica may be a good manager but she isn't doing a great job as a marketer.
On December 26 2011 20:54 DoomsVille wrote: One day the big Korean sponsors from BW are going to switch over to SC2. It is inevitable. When that happens they will look to sponsor the best teams. And that isn't going to be the teams with the best international success. International success actually hinders progress in the GSL (travel, jetlag, lack of practice etc. etc.).
Whats more likely is that the current teams are going to diversify into another division, CJ, SK, SKT etc will add on a SC2 team / room to their environments. Sponsors are more likely to breed their own talent than take a chance on unknowns (I imagine). Plus this all relies on Kespa getting involved with GOM, because if they don't they'll never cross sponsor.
I actually did read all of it, what I normally rarely do ( in blogs). Nice topic, well written, Got me thinking.. Too bad I cannot contribute to this conversation whatsoever. 5/5 regardless.
On December 26 2011 21:22 bmml wrote: Why is SlayerS put forward as such a success story in this thread? I'd hardly say a lackluster facebook page with 7k likes and no dedicated team site is impressive. They don't have dedicated writers and other content producers and don't offer anything like the amount of information a Western team do. I understand you guys jizm over boxer and jessica and yea jessica may be a good manager but she isn't doing a great job as a marketer.
At least compared to the rest of the other teams (not counting FXO/f0u which was bought over), slayers *seems* to be the best well off atm in terms of sponsors money etc.
Boxer may have been the only reason slayers made it this far thus far (especially at the beginning when they were 'nothing'), but his hype can only last so long, so jessica must been doing something right at least.
As for producing content, unless they start hiring writers capable of communicating/writing in both english/korea (which may be quite an expense on one's budget), i doubt thats something that is going to start on the korean side anytime soon. Taking one step at a time for the korean teams may be a more frugal approach. Expand themselves/appeal in the social media/global markets, then when they're more well known, successful and have more money to spend, start producing material and info for the english speaking community.
On December 26 2011 21:22 bmml wrote: Why is SlayerS put forward as such a success story in this thread? I'd hardly say a lackluster facebook page with 7k likes and no dedicated team site is impressive. They don't have dedicated writers and other content producers and don't offer anything like the amount of information a Western team do. I understand you guys jizm over boxer and jessica and yea jessica may be a good manager but she isn't doing a great job as a marketer.
At least compared to the rest of the other teams (not counting FXO/f0u which was bought over), slayers *seems* to be the best well off atm in terms of sponsors money etc.
Boxer may have been the only reason slayers made it this far thus far (especially at the beginning when they were 'nothing'), but his hype can only last so long, so jessica must been doing something right at least.
As for producing content, unless they start hiring writers capable of communicating/writing in both english/korea (which may be quite an expense on one's budget), i doubt thats something that is going to start on the korean side anytime soon. Taking one step at a time for the korean teams may be a more frugal approach. Expand themselves/appeal in the social media/global markets, then when they're more well known, successful and have more money to spend, start producing material and info for the english speaking community.
IIRC didn't intel or another company inject a shitload of money to buy boxer and have him start up a team? I imagine theyve been running off that budget rather than any other sponsor dollar mainly they may have gained. Also it isn't that hard to find writers or start a website. Also they are only well known in the English speaking community (or at least followed), the global market should be their focus market, they should embrace it rather than reject it.
On December 26 2011 15:52 Xeris wrote: Maybe this is just my ignorance about how business / marketing works in Korea, but maybe there is a reason Korean teams oftentimes struggle to find money and sponsorship. Forgive me if I'm totally off, maybe someone more knowledgeable can post some insight?
What are ways to quantify your team's exposure / reach / etc? There are several metrics that pretty easily come to mind:
If I'm a sponsor, these are numbers that I can see and gauge how much exposure I can get, and accordingly, how much money in sponsorship I should give. There are obviously other variables involved; I.E. how good of a sales pitch you offer (I.E. why teams like EG (who have a dedicated and REALLY good sales guy, Scoots) are much more successful at getting new sponsors and bigger deals than other comparable teams like Fnatic, Mouz, Dignitas, etc), personal connections, and some other factors, such as having a player who won a world championship... but the above metrics are the most objective and easily quantifiable. Sponsors care about that, if I'm not mistaken.
So where am I going with this?
Outside of Prime (seems to be a quite popular online store) and oGs... almost all of the Korean teams don't seem to have popular or regularly updated websites, and little social media presence. Do companies in Korea not care about these things? Could this not explain why Korean teams find it hard to find consistent sponsorship?
Take Startale for example (http://startale.co.kr/). Their last news post was in February? Their facebook has ~550 fans, with only sporadic updates (Player X is streaming!).
Consider a foreign team... Quantic: over 5,000 twitter followers, ~2,500 facebook fans, and a much better looking website that actually makes it seem like they do things.
If I'm a company, who would I rather sponsor? Companies don't really know or care that Startale has Bomber, July, Squirtle, and Ace (random 4 players), who are much better and more acclaimed than Naniwa, SaSe, Flo, and iNkA (random 4 players from quantic). The players play in the same tournaments, too. If I'm writing a sponsor proposal, I would be writing, "my team played in X event that had XXX,XXX,XXX stream views over the weekend... check out that awesome exposure." Throw in a few pictures of your player on the main stage... and for most purposes, it's the same thing whether you got 20th place or 2nd.
The only way a sponsor would be able to tell that Startale's players are better is if the team had a dedicated sales guy whose sole job was to convince sponsors of just that. But really, it comes down to metrics -- Startale (again.. I"m just using them as an example) doesn't have the numbers to put in a proposal that can really turn some heads.
With the prevalence of streaming, this IS admittedly getting a bit better for them, they can compile a list of their players' streams, who all have pretty good numbers. That helps, but is it enough?
If this is the case, then why is it that Korean teams seem to have such a lackluster web and social media presence? Do Korean companies not follow the same methods as non-Korean companies?Are there other factors a Korean company looks at that I'm totally ignoring?
I'm envisioning a Korean team who: a) has a really well-designed website, with community engaging features: maybe they post unique footage of their team house (note how all the team house coverage is NOT done by the actual teams themselves, but from foreigners who go there... aka, those guys are the ones who are actually benefiting from the views and exposure), let fans get to know their players, etc. b) a team who has a very active and engaging social media presence. If a Korean team had 50,000 facebook fans, pulled in a few million viewers per month to its site (which is totally possible if they produce unique content, which is totally possible because of the team houses), and had a nice facebook/twitter, AND their players are winning major events: why would they not be able to grab sponsors? Am I missing something?
There has to be reasons why Korean teams don't seem to be making more efforts in these departments. Is it because running the houses costs so much and takes so much manpower that they don't have time or money to have good websites, writing staff, and a social media presence? I guess that argument makes sense. The next thing I wonder then, is if these Korean teams constantly gripe about not having money, and make desperation partnerships with foreign teams just for the ability to send their players to some events... why don't they focus more on the things that can help them to make money?
These are just my random thoughts... FXOBoss, or someone who knows more about this... please enlighten! I'm sure Scoots / Alex Garfield would probably have some answers too. I'm actually really curious about this.
Because American sponsors only sponsor American entities. Korean ones, korean entities. There isnt enough valuable korean exposure to risk a hefty investment in Korea. But slow and steady as it grows healthily, the market is shifting. Companies are starting to be interested in Korean teams.
But Korea is not the US. The US marketing teams respond to facebook and twitter followers, which in e-sports are only worth while if you are an event, not a team.
Steams are the most important, and the Koreans are now starting to stream en masse so it will change things.
The other thing is the korean market has grown differently without the 'boom'. So it will not suffer the same consequences as other markets with over investment.
TLDR: Money is slowly coming to Korean teams because they focused on the real things without greed.
On December 26 2011 16:06 Xeris wrote: Why does it have to be a Korean company, though... For example. Intel, MSI, Steelseries, etc. Is it not more valuable to them to sponsor a Korean team (the Koreans are going to every foreign event anyway). It's not just about Korea... its their lack of ability (seemingly) to get ANY kind of sponsor.
I can think that this is the reason behind the new wave of Korean Pro players starting to sream their games, and putting stream schedule for their players, they seem to get to the point where they see that players that interact with the fans are more sucessfull and with a well made fan base you can get lots of posibilities.
For example, MKP came to MLG with his fan's money, he get the money by donations made by his fans, Forgg(Fin), SlayeS_Dragon, and some more are famous and loved because of their streams, not for being GSL, MLG, IPL nor NALS champions. And these days the Startale house is gearing up for start streaming they already anounce it, so now the understand your point Xeris.
Other teams just needs to do what SlayerS do and in some part IM. Both SlayerS and IM have facebook and twitter pages that are constantly updated with info and photos from the houses and GSL and tournaments over seas. They have someone translating all their shit so there is no confusion and they WANT the fans to take part in their team.
But still people need to remember that SC2 is NOT as big in korea as it is in the west. Brood War is still huge, and we sort of just need to wait it out I guess.
I think if you actually look at sponsors for top korean teams, there are many many sponsors from international companies. Sound Blaster, Creative, Intel, Coca Cola, Corsair, EVGA - just some of the big names that appear there.
As for sites and social media stuff - it is vastly overhyped in the west. For example facebook/twitter followers are a pretty bad estimation of the actual conversion rate, aka the bottom line sponsors should be looking at.
I'd be hard pressed to name quantic sponsors if you asked me. And then again, I don't believe korean teams are THAT hard pressed for money, or they wouldn't be able to maintain pro-gaming houses in the first place.
I think their priority is having players actually get good at the game - by providing the best possible training environment - instead of using players as walking PR robots like some of the foreign teams do.
If I'm a company, who would I rather sponsor? Companies don't really know or care that Startale has Bomber, July, Squirtle, and Ace (random 4 players), who are much better and more acclaimed than Naniwa, SaSe, Flo, and iNkA
Well, if you're a company, you should do your bloody research before you sponsor anyone, should you not? Then it would become clear that Startale has a much deeper and bigger roster, so if I was a company that cared about team leagues, I'd sponsor Startale without a doubt.
On December 27 2011 01:30 Sadistx wrote: I don't believe korean teams are THAT hard pressed for money, or they wouldn't be able to maintain pro-gaming houses in the first place.
Sadistx, you should really read the thread and look at how many replied had done business with the Korean teams or have first hand knowledge: Xeris - former Fnatics Manager, SirScoots - EG CEO, Doomsville - Playhem Admin, Laxx - Quantic Marketing Manager, FXOBoss, Manifesto7, rekrul.
I wondered the same, think it might change in the future with the amount of interaction Koreans do nowadays with their foreign fans. However I'm still yet to see a proper international website for a Korean team. I think a team like slayers could become richest team. They have a legend ( boxer ) fan fav ( mma) insane skill ( mma) and overall best team (2x gstl wins). They even have an international Twitter account with frequent updates.
If only they had a nice international home where fans could go for news and updates it would become q.lot more attractive for international companies to sponsor them. Because despite their awesomeness the only exposure they provide is when someone is at booth at gsl.
I guess I knew that the Korean's had this sort of inflated sense of self worth (as I clearly saw from the NASL discussions: Koreans think that the foreign scene has money trees... and that most Koreans seeking to join foreign teams have absolutely outrageous salary demands: this is the reason a player like Sleep hasn't found a team yet) however I didn't know it extended all the way up to their business decisions.
I believe is kind of dificult to have a sponsor if you are not part of the korean e-sport association .... in Korea. The pro scene has to move to SC2 just give it some time
On December 27 2011 02:58 Xeris wrote: I guess I knew that the Korean's had this sort of inflated sense of self worth (as I clearly saw from the NASL discussions: Koreans think that the foreign scene has money trees... and that most Koreans seeking to join foreign teams have absolutely outrageous salary demands: this is the reason a player like Sleep hasn't found a team yet) however I didn't know it extended all the way up to their business decisions.
Slighty off-topic, but is there a reason behind inquiring about this? Is it purely out of interest or may it also be part of the role you will be playing in eSports in the future?
On December 26 2011 20:54 DoomsVille wrote: One day the big Korean sponsors from BW are going to switch over to SC2. It is inevitable. When that happens they will look to sponsor the best teams. And that isn't going to be the teams with the best international success. International success actually hinders progress in the GSL (travel, jetlag, lack of practice etc. etc.).
Whats more likely is that the current teams are going to diversify into another division, CJ, SK, SKT etc will add on a SC2 team / room to their environments. Sponsors are more likely to breed their own talent than take a chance on unknowns (I imagine). Plus this all relies on Kespa getting involved with GOM, because if they don't they'll never cross sponsor.
some brood war players definitely feel this is true. Hiya definitely said he thinks that the direction of korean sc2 is that when kespa gets involved there would be kespa tournaments that only kespa sanctioned players could take part in (i.e. he wouldn't have joined an sc2 team right now, regardless of other factors like his skill/vacation/etc. He thought if sc2 is to grow, kespa will get a hold of it).
Players on team with kespa recognition could play kespa + gsl, while non-kespa teams would be limited to gsl only.
Now it's not like hiya is an accurate depiction of business--he was just a player--but I definitely think koreans were looking for a kespa-like model to handle business aspects for teams. I mean, sc2con was more like a coaches/players union iirc but it seemd to have wanted a more central structure; the kespa to sc2con analogy is poor but sc2con wanted a more centralised structure business wise when they disbanded (from sc2con disbands thread). And sponsors of korean esports may be looking for a more central organisation to be able to present itself, rather than teams pooling lots of sponsors.
Also streaming is kind of a new thing to koreans. Brood war no pro-fan interaction happened in game; no brood war player is allowed to stream or really release builds outside the team. Pros had fan meetings, cyworlds, and some twitter interaction (well, twitter now) as social interaction, and was always fan clubs on korean websites as opposed to the team's website or otherwise. The business model is one parent company having a team that goes out to play on tv; you didn't really pool sponsors as foreign teams do now. And Kespa negotiated with the parent companies.
On December 27 2011 02:58 Xeris wrote: I guess I knew that the Korean's had this sort of inflated sense of self worth (as I clearly saw from the NASL discussions: Koreans think that the foreign scene has money trees... and that most Koreans seeking to join foreign teams have absolutely outrageous salary demands: this is the reason a player like Sleep hasn't found a team yet) however I didn't know it extended all the way up to their business decisions.
Slighty off-topic, but is there a reason behind inquiring about this? Is it purely out of interest or may it also be part of the role you will be playing in eSports in the future?
edit: great blog btw, 5/5
No particular reason... I forbid myself to work for the past 3 days so I've been bored as shit and have a lot of time to think and write about random stuff :p
Keep in mind when talking about sponsors, how much money they are actually putting in. A sponsor like say Samsung is putting a significant amount of money in to run the team. While SC2 sponsors don't appear to be involved to that level.
and why would they really.. without a main product, such as Proleague, where the sponsors get their exposure; it's simply not worth funding whole teams or putting large amounts of money in. Hence why companies would prefer to just sponsor a tournament and get exposure that way.
Irrelevant to the point behind your post, but I thought that Alex Garfield and Brandon Freytag are primarily the guys that go to sponsors with their 'sales pitch' not Scoots I could be wrong though.
On December 27 2011 02:58 Xeris wrote: I guess I knew that the Korean's had this sort of inflated sense of self worth (as I clearly saw from the NASL discussions: Koreans think that the foreign scene has money trees... and that most Koreans seeking to join foreign teams have absolutely outrageous salary demands: this is the reason a player like Sleep hasn't found a team yet) however I didn't know it extended all the way up to their business decisions.
Its funny, I have said the same thing about foreigners
I guess your specifically talking about SC2, but as you can see in BW, sponsors aren't much of an issue and that they (Korean teams) can get sponsors that will pay out better salaries than foreigner teams.
Teams that are sponsored now in SC2, like fnatic, are organizations that have been around and are a mainstay. Like fnatic and Mouz didn't just start up when SC2 came out, they have been established; and will continue to do so even if SC2 stops at a competitive level. Sponsors probably have to be assured that the team will last and have a clean/trusting image. Teams in Korea for SC2 seem to have just started fresh as SC2 started and it takes time for sponsors. Teams are starting to get sponsors from what I've read now; IM has coca-cola, StarTale has benQ (Bomber with Redbull sponsor), Slayers with Intel, oGs with Mom's Touch and so on.
The cost of upholding a team house with maid service can be similar to a foreigner with salary. I don't really know how much salary foreign pro players make, but most probably make just enough to live "ok" to cover housing/food where as Korean teams provide all that already.
But I think the Koreans are shifting towards more to the media exposure; like the facebook pages and especially twitter (and now streaming). The team websites might not be a big thing in Korea and isn't that big IMO for foreign teams either. I barely see anyone comment much on team sites (besides liquid's).
On December 27 2011 02:58 Xeris wrote: I guess I knew that the Korean's had this sort of inflated sense of self worth (as I clearly saw from the NASL discussions: Koreans think that the foreign scene has money trees... and that most Koreans seeking to join foreign teams have absolutely outrageous salary demands: this is the reason a player like Sleep hasn't found a team yet) however I didn't know it extended all the way up to their business decisions.
Its funny, I have said the same thing about foreigners
Shhhh... keep the secrets to yourself. Don't want every foreign team impeding on your territory
This means there's a good niche for a company, like FXO to send to Korea a translator, and a PR content person. These two, working together, would generate content in the form of interviews, videos, and articles. Imagine an article where OZ teaches you how to play Protoss. How many views would that get? Or an FPVod of Leenock showing opening Zerg builds and giving commentary (with subtitles). You've got GM players coaching for $10-20/hr right now. You can even make a subscription "Koreans teach SC2" site and charge big money for just videos/articles. Sell uniforms to the rest of the world, etc etc. There's a lot of untapped potential.
On December 28 2011 05:38 vnlegend wrote: This means there's a good niche for a company, like FXO to send to Korea a translator, and a PR content person. These two, working together, would generate content in the form of interviews, videos, and articles. Imagine an article where OZ teaches you how to play Protoss. How many views would that get? Or an FPVod of Leenock showing opening Zerg builds and giving commentary (with subtitles). You've got GM players coaching for $10-20/hr right now. You can even make a subscription "Koreans teach SC2" site and charge big money for just videos/articles. Sell uniforms to the rest of the world, etc etc. There's a lot of untapped potential.
A code S player shouldn't have time for that stuff... At least on a regular basis.
EPT
I could be wrong though.
