On December 26 2011 21:22 bmml wrote: Why is SlayerS put forward as such a success story in this thread? I'd hardly say a lackluster facebook page with 7k likes and no dedicated team site is impressive. They don't have dedicated writers and other content producers and don't offer anything like the amount of information a Western team do. I understand you guys jizm over boxer and jessica and yea jessica may be a good manager but she isn't doing a great job as a marketer.
At least compared to the rest of the other teams (not counting FXO/f0u which was bought over), slayers *seems* to be the best well off atm in terms of sponsors money etc.
Boxer may have been the only reason slayers made it this far thus far (especially at the beginning when they were 'nothing'), but his hype can only last so long, so jessica must been doing something right at least.
As for producing content, unless they start hiring writers capable of communicating/writing in both english/korea (which may be quite an expense on one's budget), i doubt thats something that is going to start on the korean side anytime soon. Taking one step at a time for the korean teams may be a more frugal approach. Expand themselves/appeal in the social media/global markets, then when they're more well known, successful and have more money to spend, start producing material and info for the english speaking community.
On December 26 2011 21:22 bmml wrote: Why is SlayerS put forward as such a success story in this thread? I'd hardly say a lackluster facebook page with 7k likes and no dedicated team site is impressive. They don't have dedicated writers and other content producers and don't offer anything like the amount of information a Western team do. I understand you guys jizm over boxer and jessica and yea jessica may be a good manager but she isn't doing a great job as a marketer.
At least compared to the rest of the other teams (not counting FXO/f0u which was bought over), slayers *seems* to be the best well off atm in terms of sponsors money etc.
Boxer may have been the only reason slayers made it this far thus far (especially at the beginning when they were 'nothing'), but his hype can only last so long, so jessica must been doing something right at least.
As for producing content, unless they start hiring writers capable of communicating/writing in both english/korea (which may be quite an expense on one's budget), i doubt thats something that is going to start on the korean side anytime soon. Taking one step at a time for the korean teams may be a more frugal approach. Expand themselves/appeal in the social media/global markets, then when they're more well known, successful and have more money to spend, start producing material and info for the english speaking community.
IIRC didn't intel or another company inject a shitload of money to buy boxer and have him start up a team? I imagine theyve been running off that budget rather than any other sponsor dollar mainly they may have gained. Also it isn't that hard to find writers or start a website. Also they are only well known in the English speaking community (or at least followed), the global market should be their focus market, they should embrace it rather than reject it.
On December 26 2011 15:52 Xeris wrote: Maybe this is just my ignorance about how business / marketing works in Korea, but maybe there is a reason Korean teams oftentimes struggle to find money and sponsorship. Forgive me if I'm totally off, maybe someone more knowledgeable can post some insight?
What are ways to quantify your team's exposure / reach / etc? There are several metrics that pretty easily come to mind:
If I'm a sponsor, these are numbers that I can see and gauge how much exposure I can get, and accordingly, how much money in sponsorship I should give. There are obviously other variables involved; I.E. how good of a sales pitch you offer (I.E. why teams like EG (who have a dedicated and REALLY good sales guy, Scoots) are much more successful at getting new sponsors and bigger deals than other comparable teams like Fnatic, Mouz, Dignitas, etc), personal connections, and some other factors, such as having a player who won a world championship... but the above metrics are the most objective and easily quantifiable. Sponsors care about that, if I'm not mistaken.
So where am I going with this?
Outside of Prime (seems to be a quite popular online store) and oGs... almost all of the Korean teams don't seem to have popular or regularly updated websites, and little social media presence. Do companies in Korea not care about these things? Could this not explain why Korean teams find it hard to find consistent sponsorship?
Take Startale for example (http://startale.co.kr/). Their last news post was in February? Their facebook has ~550 fans, with only sporadic updates (Player X is streaming!).
Consider a foreign team... Quantic: over 5,000 twitter followers, ~2,500 facebook fans, and a much better looking website that actually makes it seem like they do things.
If I'm a company, who would I rather sponsor? Companies don't really know or care that Startale has Bomber, July, Squirtle, and Ace (random 4 players), who are much better and more acclaimed than Naniwa, SaSe, Flo, and iNkA (random 4 players from quantic). The players play in the same tournaments, too. If I'm writing a sponsor proposal, I would be writing, "my team played in X event that had XXX,XXX,XXX stream views over the weekend... check out that awesome exposure." Throw in a few pictures of your player on the main stage... and for most purposes, it's the same thing whether you got 20th place or 2nd.
The only way a sponsor would be able to tell that Startale's players are better is if the team had a dedicated sales guy whose sole job was to convince sponsors of just that. But really, it comes down to metrics -- Startale (again.. I"m just using them as an example) doesn't have the numbers to put in a proposal that can really turn some heads.
With the prevalence of streaming, this IS admittedly getting a bit better for them, they can compile a list of their players' streams, who all have pretty good numbers. That helps, but is it enough?
If this is the case, then why is it that Korean teams seem to have such a lackluster web and social media presence? Do Korean companies not follow the same methods as non-Korean companies?Are there other factors a Korean company looks at that I'm totally ignoring?
I'm envisioning a Korean team who: a) has a really well-designed website, with community engaging features: maybe they post unique footage of their team house (note how all the team house coverage is NOT done by the actual teams themselves, but from foreigners who go there... aka, those guys are the ones who are actually benefiting from the views and exposure), let fans get to know their players, etc. b) a team who has a very active and engaging social media presence. If a Korean team had 50,000 facebook fans, pulled in a few million viewers per month to its site (which is totally possible if they produce unique content, which is totally possible because of the team houses), and had a nice facebook/twitter, AND their players are winning major events: why would they not be able to grab sponsors? Am I missing something?
There has to be reasons why Korean teams don't seem to be making more efforts in these departments. Is it because running the houses costs so much and takes so much manpower that they don't have time or money to have good websites, writing staff, and a social media presence? I guess that argument makes sense. The next thing I wonder then, is if these Korean teams constantly gripe about not having money, and make desperation partnerships with foreign teams just for the ability to send their players to some events... why don't they focus more on the things that can help them to make money?
These are just my random thoughts... FXOBoss, or someone who knows more about this... please enlighten! I'm sure Scoots / Alex Garfield would probably have some answers too. I'm actually really curious about this.
Because American sponsors only sponsor American entities. Korean ones, korean entities. There isnt enough valuable korean exposure to risk a hefty investment in Korea. But slow and steady as it grows healthily, the market is shifting. Companies are starting to be interested in Korean teams.
But Korea is not the US. The US marketing teams respond to facebook and twitter followers, which in e-sports are only worth while if you are an event, not a team.
Steams are the most important, and the Koreans are now starting to stream en masse so it will change things.
The other thing is the korean market has grown differently without the 'boom'. So it will not suffer the same consequences as other markets with over investment.
TLDR: Money is slowly coming to Korean teams because they focused on the real things without greed.
On December 26 2011 16:06 Xeris wrote: Why does it have to be a Korean company, though... For example. Intel, MSI, Steelseries, etc. Is it not more valuable to them to sponsor a Korean team (the Koreans are going to every foreign event anyway). It's not just about Korea... its their lack of ability (seemingly) to get ANY kind of sponsor.
I can think that this is the reason behind the new wave of Korean Pro players starting to sream their games, and putting stream schedule for their players, they seem to get to the point where they see that players that interact with the fans are more sucessfull and with a well made fan base you can get lots of posibilities.
For example, MKP came to MLG with his fan's money, he get the money by donations made by his fans, Forgg(Fin), SlayeS_Dragon, and some more are famous and loved because of their streams, not for being GSL, MLG, IPL nor NALS champions. And these days the Startale house is gearing up for start streaming they already anounce it, so now the understand your point Xeris.
Other teams just needs to do what SlayerS do and in some part IM. Both SlayerS and IM have facebook and twitter pages that are constantly updated with info and photos from the houses and GSL and tournaments over seas. They have someone translating all their shit so there is no confusion and they WANT the fans to take part in their team.
But still people need to remember that SC2 is NOT as big in korea as it is in the west. Brood War is still huge, and we sort of just need to wait it out I guess.
I think if you actually look at sponsors for top korean teams, there are many many sponsors from international companies. Sound Blaster, Creative, Intel, Coca Cola, Corsair, EVGA - just some of the big names that appear there.
As for sites and social media stuff - it is vastly overhyped in the west. For example facebook/twitter followers are a pretty bad estimation of the actual conversion rate, aka the bottom line sponsors should be looking at.
I'd be hard pressed to name quantic sponsors if you asked me. And then again, I don't believe korean teams are THAT hard pressed for money, or they wouldn't be able to maintain pro-gaming houses in the first place.
I think their priority is having players actually get good at the game - by providing the best possible training environment - instead of using players as walking PR robots like some of the foreign teams do.
If I'm a company, who would I rather sponsor? Companies don't really know or care that Startale has Bomber, July, Squirtle, and Ace (random 4 players), who are much better and more acclaimed than Naniwa, SaSe, Flo, and iNkA
Well, if you're a company, you should do your bloody research before you sponsor anyone, should you not? Then it would become clear that Startale has a much deeper and bigger roster, so if I was a company that cared about team leagues, I'd sponsor Startale without a doubt.
On December 27 2011 01:30 Sadistx wrote: I don't believe korean teams are THAT hard pressed for money, or they wouldn't be able to maintain pro-gaming houses in the first place.
Sadistx, you should really read the thread and look at how many replied had done business with the Korean teams or have first hand knowledge: Xeris - former Fnatics Manager, SirScoots - EG CEO, Doomsville - Playhem Admin, Laxx - Quantic Marketing Manager, FXOBoss, Manifesto7, rekrul.
I wondered the same, think it might change in the future with the amount of interaction Koreans do nowadays with their foreign fans. However I'm still yet to see a proper international website for a Korean team. I think a team like slayers could become richest team. They have a legend ( boxer ) fan fav ( mma) insane skill ( mma) and overall best team (2x gstl wins). They even have an international Twitter account with frequent updates.
If only they had a nice international home where fans could go for news and updates it would become q.lot more attractive for international companies to sponsor them. Because despite their awesomeness the only exposure they provide is when someone is at booth at gsl.
I guess I knew that the Korean's had this sort of inflated sense of self worth (as I clearly saw from the NASL discussions: Koreans think that the foreign scene has money trees... and that most Koreans seeking to join foreign teams have absolutely outrageous salary demands: this is the reason a player like Sleep hasn't found a team yet) however I didn't know it extended all the way up to their business decisions.
I believe is kind of dificult to have a sponsor if you are not part of the korean e-sport association .... in Korea. The pro scene has to move to SC2 just give it some time
On December 27 2011 02:58 Xeris wrote: I guess I knew that the Korean's had this sort of inflated sense of self worth (as I clearly saw from the NASL discussions: Koreans think that the foreign scene has money trees... and that most Koreans seeking to join foreign teams have absolutely outrageous salary demands: this is the reason a player like Sleep hasn't found a team yet) however I didn't know it extended all the way up to their business decisions.
Slighty off-topic, but is there a reason behind inquiring about this? Is it purely out of interest or may it also be part of the role you will be playing in eSports in the future?
On December 26 2011 20:54 DoomsVille wrote: One day the big Korean sponsors from BW are going to switch over to SC2. It is inevitable. When that happens they will look to sponsor the best teams. And that isn't going to be the teams with the best international success. International success actually hinders progress in the GSL (travel, jetlag, lack of practice etc. etc.).
Whats more likely is that the current teams are going to diversify into another division, CJ, SK, SKT etc will add on a SC2 team / room to their environments. Sponsors are more likely to breed their own talent than take a chance on unknowns (I imagine). Plus this all relies on Kespa getting involved with GOM, because if they don't they'll never cross sponsor.
some brood war players definitely feel this is true. Hiya definitely said he thinks that the direction of korean sc2 is that when kespa gets involved there would be kespa tournaments that only kespa sanctioned players could take part in (i.e. he wouldn't have joined an sc2 team right now, regardless of other factors like his skill/vacation/etc. He thought if sc2 is to grow, kespa will get a hold of it).
Players on team with kespa recognition could play kespa + gsl, while non-kespa teams would be limited to gsl only.
Now it's not like hiya is an accurate depiction of business--he was just a player--but I definitely think koreans were looking for a kespa-like model to handle business aspects for teams. I mean, sc2con was more like a coaches/players union iirc but it seemd to have wanted a more central structure; the kespa to sc2con analogy is poor but sc2con wanted a more centralised structure business wise when they disbanded (from sc2con disbands thread). And sponsors of korean esports may be looking for a more central organisation to be able to present itself, rather than teams pooling lots of sponsors.
Also streaming is kind of a new thing to koreans. Brood war no pro-fan interaction happened in game; no brood war player is allowed to stream or really release builds outside the team. Pros had fan meetings, cyworlds, and some twitter interaction (well, twitter now) as social interaction, and was always fan clubs on korean websites as opposed to the team's website or otherwise. The business model is one parent company having a team that goes out to play on tv; you didn't really pool sponsors as foreign teams do now. And Kespa negotiated with the parent companies.
On December 27 2011 02:58 Xeris wrote: I guess I knew that the Korean's had this sort of inflated sense of self worth (as I clearly saw from the NASL discussions: Koreans think that the foreign scene has money trees... and that most Koreans seeking to join foreign teams have absolutely outrageous salary demands: this is the reason a player like Sleep hasn't found a team yet) however I didn't know it extended all the way up to their business decisions.
Slighty off-topic, but is there a reason behind inquiring about this? Is it purely out of interest or may it also be part of the role you will be playing in eSports in the future?
edit: great blog btw, 5/5
No particular reason... I forbid myself to work for the past 3 days so I've been bored as shit and have a lot of time to think and write about random stuff :p
Keep in mind when talking about sponsors, how much money they are actually putting in. A sponsor like say Samsung is putting a significant amount of money in to run the team. While SC2 sponsors don't appear to be involved to that level.
and why would they really.. without a main product, such as Proleague, where the sponsors get their exposure; it's simply not worth funding whole teams or putting large amounts of money in. Hence why companies would prefer to just sponsor a tournament and get exposure that way.
Irrelevant to the point behind your post, but I thought that Alex Garfield and Brandon Freytag are primarily the guys that go to sponsors with their 'sales pitch' not Scoots I could be wrong though.
On December 27 2011 02:58 Xeris wrote: I guess I knew that the Korean's had this sort of inflated sense of self worth (as I clearly saw from the NASL discussions: Koreans think that the foreign scene has money trees... and that most Koreans seeking to join foreign teams have absolutely outrageous salary demands: this is the reason a player like Sleep hasn't found a team yet) however I didn't know it extended all the way up to their business decisions.
Its funny, I have said the same thing about foreigners
I guess your specifically talking about SC2, but as you can see in BW, sponsors aren't much of an issue and that they (Korean teams) can get sponsors that will pay out better salaries than foreigner teams.
Teams that are sponsored now in SC2, like fnatic, are organizations that have been around and are a mainstay. Like fnatic and Mouz didn't just start up when SC2 came out, they have been established; and will continue to do so even if SC2 stops at a competitive level. Sponsors probably have to be assured that the team will last and have a clean/trusting image. Teams in Korea for SC2 seem to have just started fresh as SC2 started and it takes time for sponsors. Teams are starting to get sponsors from what I've read now; IM has coca-cola, StarTale has benQ (Bomber with Redbull sponsor), Slayers with Intel, oGs with Mom's Touch and so on.
The cost of upholding a team house with maid service can be similar to a foreigner with salary. I don't really know how much salary foreign pro players make, but most probably make just enough to live "ok" to cover housing/food where as Korean teams provide all that already.
But I think the Koreans are shifting towards more to the media exposure; like the facebook pages and especially twitter (and now streaming). The team websites might not be a big thing in Korea and isn't that big IMO for foreign teams either. I barely see anyone comment much on team sites (besides liquid's).
On December 27 2011 02:58 Xeris wrote: I guess I knew that the Korean's had this sort of inflated sense of self worth (as I clearly saw from the NASL discussions: Koreans think that the foreign scene has money trees... and that most Koreans seeking to join foreign teams have absolutely outrageous salary demands: this is the reason a player like Sleep hasn't found a team yet) however I didn't know it extended all the way up to their business decisions.
Its funny, I have said the same thing about foreigners
Shhhh... keep the secrets to yourself. Don't want every foreign team impeding on your territory
This means there's a good niche for a company, like FXO to send to Korea a translator, and a PR content person. These two, working together, would generate content in the form of interviews, videos, and articles. Imagine an article where OZ teaches you how to play Protoss. How many views would that get? Or an FPVod of Leenock showing opening Zerg builds and giving commentary (with subtitles). You've got GM players coaching for $10-20/hr right now. You can even make a subscription "Koreans teach SC2" site and charge big money for just videos/articles. Sell uniforms to the rest of the world, etc etc. There's a lot of untapped potential.
EPT
I could be wrong though.
