EPTOn December 15 2011 07:48 ondik wrote:
what?
what?
That's exactly what I said when I read your theory.
I don't think you should blame the players. The tournament structure should be changed so that no one can take advantage of it.
Korean hypocrisy - Page 2
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
That's exactly what I said when I read your theory. I don't think you should blame the players. The tournament structure should be changed so that no one can take advantage of it. | ||
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warblob004
United States198 Posts
Well - nonetheless, gogo White-ra. | ||
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ondik
Czech Republic2908 Posts
On December 15 2011 07:49 obesechicken13 wrote: That's exactly what I said when I read your theory. I don't think you should blame the players. The tournament structure should be changed so that no one can take advantage of it. what theory? I don't understand. Stork needs to avoid playing Hwasin in ro8 -> must finish 2nd in his group so he can meet him (or savior, don't remember the brackets exactly) in semis. And yes, that's what I wrote in the last sentence. Neither of these two incidents would have happened had the tournament structure been better. | ||
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
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OmniEulogy
Canada6600 Posts
Nal_Ra was probe rushing before it was cool~ | ||
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Terrakin
United States1440 Posts
On December 15 2011 07:10 FinestHour wrote: Why are these even allowed to stay open. User was warned for this post Do you understand the point of forums? It is to talk and interact with other people. As the poster above said the korean pride outweighs the progaming/esports pride when its their countries name at stake. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
They can be pretty xenophobic and have a lot of cultural pride in themselves and expect themselves to be the best, especially in something like starcraft where they have dominated for a good while now. When stork threw those games to try and make a Korean top 3 sweep, he was doing it to preserve their national pride, so his incredibly obvious unsportsmanlike conduct was swept under the rug without any real backlash about being a professional and all that, the Koreans wanted a sweep that they believed they deserved and that's what his intentions were so nobody cared. Now in Naniwas case, he threw a rather unimportant match with both players having all been eliminated. To us westerners its not really a big deal because its a match that was meaningless in terms of the tournament, and professional athletes do way worse and far more disrespectful acts all the time in televised games of other sports. However to Koreans, Naniwa was an outsider participating as a guest in their league in Korea, who disrespected a Korean fan favorite. Comparing the two, storks actions where much more severe as he purposely threw games to mess with placements that actually mattered compared to the 0-3 showdown, neither of them broke any rules, but one was a national hero and the other had his spot in a major league pulled from him. Don't get me wrong i am not trying be racist, or trying to imply that Koreans are racist, but the fact is our cultures on the matter are vastly different on the subject of what happened with Naniwa/stork. Its a touchy subject for both sides, and hopefully a better resolution can be met. Personally i believe Naniwa was in the wrong, but i don't think he can be punished so harshly when there are no rules really against what he did, hes instead being punished by their cultural beliefs. In the future GOM should have an updated rule book with specific boundaries and regulations players must abide to in order to prevent another incident like this. | ||
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ssi.bal-listic
United States568 Posts
Sure both examples are not good as a spectator but just blatantly losing on purpose just because you don't want to play the game is much worse than not playing to full potential. What Stork did was definitely not the best and a lot of people would find those kind of actions with a negative view (including me, a korean). Naniwa could've done a 4 gate and u know what? No one would've flamed him or get upset at him (maybe a couple). But, Naniwa just decided to do something that has 0% chance of winning in the most shocking way. He has to realize that even though he is playing for money, GSL is a production, a show, and its job is to entertain people with good games. Naniwa was invited to this prestigious tournament that was meant to be a celebration. I understand that he got upset he lost his first three games and he couldve did some crazy cheese, at least thats more entertaining. I'm glad that Naniwa apologized and GSL gave its explanations as well. p.s. GSL wasn't going to give any Code S seed from MLG Providence anyway because the contract was for 2011, not 2012. Also, you dont see korean invites to MLG Providence, they all went with points. | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
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Phyrful
United States248 Posts
On December 15 2011 07:09 Keone wrote: I'm sorry, are you saying Koreans don't take thrown games seriously? ... have you ever heard of this ex-progamer named Savior before? ... are you kidding me? Though Savior did it for money, the reason he was crucified on the stake is because he threw games. And Stork played a full game. If he had 5-probe-rushed, I guarantee that the Korean community would have been pissed as hell. Plus you really don't have any proof that he DID throw the games. Essentially if Naniwa had played a shitty game VS Nestea, none of this would have mattered. The fact that he openly showed his disrespect to his opponent is what I think the GOM people cared about. Let's try not to be so racist in the thread and OP, okay? Nani played a full probe rush game as well. A throw is a throw; when you start judging the quality of the throw (oh his throw took so much more effort!) it's a slippery slope to justifying all kinds of unexcusable behaviors. | ||
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acrimoneyius
United States983 Posts
Even if they were, you don't really understand what hypocrisy is. | ||
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oBlade
United States6605 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:54 Shana wrote: At least Stork wasn't doing probe rush like naniwa One of the great tragedies of the real match-fixing scandal was that we would find certain games suspect long after the fact because it was inherently deceptive. Naniwa made his intentions perfectly clear, and the game was effectively a forfeit. My point is that if anything, the case of stork at WCG or for instance Hwasin in KeSPA leagues is that if you try to make your game look legitimate, then you really are betraying the fans because they presume the game was played honorably, and there's some other goal involved (betting). Naniwa just didn't care, and he didn't want to play. And that was obvious in the game. | ||
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Keyboard Warrior
United States1178 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On December 15 2011 07:37 vnlegend wrote: Difference is Stork actually tried to play the games. Albeit doing dumb things, but at least he put on a performance. Naniwa did no such thing. This is the typical westerner individualized selfish way of looking at things. GOMTV is running an entertainment company. In no such way should such a thing be tolerated. Oh, so it's ok if you hide it, even badly, like Hero did for instance. Like I said in another thread, nani should have proxyed 2 gates or canon rushing like Hero. Throwing the game, but as long as you build some buildings, it's ok...nice double standard. | ||
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Keyboard Warrior
United States1178 Posts
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0800
United States11 Posts
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
On December 15 2011 09:12 Phyrful wrote: Nani played a full probe rush game as well. A throw is a throw; when you start judging the quality of the throw (oh his throw took so much more effort!) it's a slippery slope to justifying all kinds of unexcusable behaviors. You have it backwards. When you start counting stuff like bad 4gates as "throws", it's a slippery slope as to what counts as a "throw", because maybe one player just played poorly. Whenever there is reasonable doubt, a game should not be counted as a thrown game. Innocent until proven guilty. The problem in Nani's situation is that there is no reasonable doubt at all as to whether he threw the game. | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
On December 15 2011 11:00 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: ...This kind of argument was already made, there's clearly a difference because there was a strategic benefit to losing the game for further performance in the tournament, whereas that clearly was not the case in the Blizzard Cup. Yea these threads are ridiculous. There is a clear difference between throwing a game so the clearly superior players can compete in the finals vs some scrub played poorly so he gets throws games out of poor sportsmanship. On December 15 2011 10:55 0800 wrote: Great blog post, sadly stuff like this does not get highlighted. A sad day for teamliquid when things like this are thrown in the spotlight. | ||
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Garnet
Vietnam9056 Posts
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