|
So, reading comments from all the angry korean netizens, all the angry korean sc2 "true" pro-gamers and all the angry korean news sites, was I the only one to remember one very "honorable" moment of starcraft history?
It's 2007. First day of WCG. I know, as last week shew, WCG is a disgrace now. However, back then, it was the best we got. It was the most prestigious tournament for foreigners and the only tournament (not counting blizzcon) outside of Asia where top Koreans participated regularly. I'd say the tournament was more important to foreign community than any of MLGs, DHs, IEMs nowadays, because it happened only once a year and there were no other big tournaments like that (maybe Dreamhack came close). One tournament, one chance, one opportunity to fight Koreans (and most of the times fail miserably).
The tournament structure was kinda similar to one we saw this year. There were 8 groups, 4 players, 2 of them advanced to ro16, which was bo3 (including finals), single elimination. The ro16 pairing was A1 vs H2 and so on.
Every year, Koreans hoped not to face each other before semifinals, not only because considering themselves - rightfully - as top3 players of the tournament no matter who they face.
This year they got unlucky. Winning their groups, Stork and Hwasin were supposed to meet in ro8.
However, as in few previous tournaments, they decided to do something about it. Stork needed to finish the group on 2nd place so he threw his game against white-ra. White-ra then lost the last game in group to russian player EX, creating a tie-break situation, everyone was 3-1. Did white-ra throw his game as well as a protest against poor Stork's sportmanship? Who knows.
Then the tie-breakers came. Stork vs white-ra was the first game to be played. Stork threw the game AGAIN, even more obviously than the first time. Second game Stork played against EX and beat him. In the third game white-ra played against EX. If their original group game was questionable, this one without a doubt wasn't. White-ra let EX take the win because he simply didn't like the way Koeans are trying to fix the tournament. That meant another tie-breaker.
Second tie-breaker was the exact copy of the first one.
In the third tie-breaker, Stork probably realized this strategy wouldn't work out (also, it was 11pm) and won both games. White-ra won against EX and advanced from second place.
Ironically enough, Stork went on to win the tournament, not dropping a single game against Hwasin, Mondragon and PJ (who beat Savior) in finals. White-ra finished 4th.
But to get to a little agressive name of this blog. A true Korean progamer, representing his team and his country was throwing games on purpose trying to fix the tournament bracket.
Was there a reaction from Stork's team? No.
Was there a reaction from WCG? No.
Was there a reaction from KESPA? No.
Was there an outrage among korean netizens? Most likely not.
It was obviously discussed here on TL. People were mostly finding it pathetic, on the other hand though, they understood it. The tournament format was simply terrible.
here's the LR thread at the start of controversy - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60363¤tpage=25
few last pages are also interesting.
 
|
But you can't be 1000000% sure it was a thrown game and he didn't admit it so it doesn't count!!!
|
does this behavior really surprise anyone?
|
On December 15 2011 07:01 Skilledblob wrote:
does this behavior really surprise anyone?
The information in the blog or the fact that angry people are making constant new blogs and posts about hypocrisy bla bla bla and really just forming more of a wedge between the community without any attempt to move on?
|
I'm sorry, are you saying Koreans don't take thrown games seriously?
... have you ever heard of this ex-progamer named Savior before? ... are you kidding me? Though Savior did it for money, the reason he was crucified on the stake is because he threw games.
And Stork played a full game. If he had 5-probe-rushed, I guarantee that the Korean community would have been pissed as hell. Plus you really don't have any proof that he DID throw the games.
Essentially if Naniwa had played a shitty game VS Nestea, none of this would have mattered. The fact that he openly showed his disrespect to his opponent is what I think the GOM people cared about.
Let's try not to be so racist in the thread and OP, okay?
|
It's blatant hypocrisy, everybody knows that, not everyone is willing to accept that though.
|
I don't see why both sides can't be at fault. GSL needs to fix their format, Nani needs to fix his attitude.
As for netizens... why does it matter, exactly? I find myself caring less and less about what TL or Reddit or the Koreans at their sites think. As the scene grows larger there are more people willing to speak their mind even though they're talking bullshit. That's just how it is. There's a whole bunch of hypocrisy in real sports, simply because people aren't quite introspective enough.
|
you dont even bother to consider the savior incident that post-dated the alleged incidents in the 2007 WCG. standards changed based on circumstances. the match fixing scandal rocked the starcraft scene, and recent developments have shown what a huge impact it has made on the scene (e.g., Coca and now Naniwa).
|
Why are these even allowed to stay open.
User was warned for this post
|
On December 15 2011 07:09 Keone wrote:
I'm sorry, are you saying Koreans don't take thrown games seriously?
... have you ever heard of this ex-progamer named Savior before? ... are you kidding me? Though Savior did it for money, the reason he was crucified on the stake is because he threw games.
And Stork played a full game. If he had 5-probe-rushed, I guarantee that the Korean community would have been pissed as hell. Plus you really don't have any proof that he DID throw the games.
Essentially if Naniwa had played a shitty game VS Nestea, none of this would have mattered. The fact that he openly showed his disrespect to his opponent is what I think the GOM people cared about.
Let's try not to be so racist in the thread and OP, okay?
Yup, it's totally different, and ppl don't seem notice.
|
Yes, I remember this. Stork clearly wanted to "arrange" a korean top3.
|
On December 15 2011 07:10 Redmark wrote:
As for netizens... why does it matter, exactly? I find myself caring less and less about what TL or Reddit or the Koreans at their sites think. As the scene grows larger there are more people willing to speak their mind even though they're talking bullshit. That's just how it is. There's a whole bunch of hypocrisy in real sports, simply because people aren't quite introspective enough.
It does matter a lot in starcraft world. Had there not been such an overreaction, I'm sure GOM would have ignored it.
On December 15 2011 07:10 dAPhREAk wrote:
you dont even bother to consider the savior incident that post-dated the alleged incidents in the 2007 WCG. standards changed based on circumstances. the match fixing scandal rocked the starcraft scene, and recent developments have shown what a huge impact it has made on the scene (e.g., Coca and now Naniwa).
Yep, that's a valid point. It can be discussed if it really changed that much.
On December 15 2011 07:09 Keone wrote:
... have you ever heard of this ex-progamer named Savior before? ... are you kidding me? Though Savior did it for money, the reason he was crucified on the stake is because he threw games.
And Stork played a full game. If he had 5-probe-rushed, I guarantee that the Korean community would have been pissed as hell. Plus you really don't have any proof that he DID throw the games.
Essentially if Naniwa had played a shitty game VS Nestea, none of this would have mattered. The fact that he openly showed his disrespect to his opponent is what I think the GOM people cared about.
Let's try not to be so racist in the thread and OP, okay?
No, I obviously joined this site in 2011 and am making this all up.
In my opinion, there's no fucking difference in pretending to not throw a game but throw it anyway and just rubbing it in everyone's face like naniwa did. The point is the same. You threw the game.
And I'm not racist, nor hating on any country. Do you think I'd be fan of starcraft if I didn't like Korea(ns)?!
|
I remember this, and it's just as dumb as what happened here.
|
koreans always come accross as double standards as muhc as we want foreigners to win... in reality Koreans want us to fail...
Noone knows if MC actually fully tried to knock stephano out that is another way this tournament sucks that players already through can still determine in such situations. Anyway this happens in EVERY sport i know from playing pool semi pro some of the shit and corrupt things that happened for money :D
|
i read through that old thread from 2007. if its true, fuck stork. he was always my favorite sc1 protoss; not anymore.
|
White-ra never fails to impress.
|
Difference is Stork actually tried to play the games. Albeit doing dumb things, but at least he put on a performance. Naniwa did no such thing. This is the typical westerner individualized selfish way of looking at things. GOMTV is running an entertainment company. In no such way should such a thing be tolerated.
|
I thought the old WCG theory was that koreans tried not to get matched against other koreans in BW because they knew they might lose if they did. Koreans in BW were worlds above foreigners. That's why they used to throw games. Like if flash, jaedong, and bisu went to wcg, flash would throw a game hoping jaedong or bisu would eliminate each other and flash could face the winer.
You're basically saying the opposite: that they want to face each other. :~
Anyways it's been said before... the entire idea of knowing who you will play if you beat someone is just stupid.
|
I just gained a ton more respect for White-Ra 
|
On December 15 2011 07:37 vnlegend wrote:
Difference is Stork actually tried to play the games. Albeit doing dumb things, but at least he put on a performance. Naniwa did no such thing. This is the typical westerner individualized selfish way of looking at things. GOMTV is running an entertainment company. In no such way should such a thing be tolerated.
I guess it depends on your point of view. As I wrote earlier, it makes no difference to me if tries to hide it or not. And I could even say it's good that he's honest about it (but i don't really care..cannon rush or worker rush, the point stays the same)
On December 15 2011 07:37 obesechicken13 wrote:
I thought the old WCG theory was that koreans tried not to get matched against other koreans in BW because they knew they might lose if they did. Koreans in BW were worlds above foreigners. That's why they used to throw games.
You're basically saying the opposite: that they want to face each other. :~
what?
|
On December 15 2011 07:48 ondik wrote:
what?
That's exactly what I said when I read your theory.
I don't think you should blame the players. The tournament structure should be changed so that no one can take advantage of it.
|
Wasn't there a whole scandal involving throwing games / betting in Korea that banned players like Luxury and Savior?
Well - nonetheless, gogo White-ra.
|
On December 15 2011 07:49 obesechicken13 wrote:That's exactly what I said when I read your theory. I don't think you should blame the players. The tournament structure should be changed so that no one can take advantage of it.
what theory? I don't understand. Stork needs to avoid playing Hwasin in ro8 -> must finish 2nd in his group so he can meet him (or savior, don't remember the brackets exactly) in semis.
And yes, that's what I wrote in the last sentence. Neither of these two incidents would have happened had the tournament structure been better.
|
He was doing this for his country. Having high korean placings means a better representation of his country.
|
I really am tired about these things. Idra didn't even play vs Haypro at MLG and just left because he was allowed. In extreme cases where Naniwa decides to probe rush because he isn't allowed to just say "I forfeit" I really don't care. I stayed up to see his game. Watched it and was entertained because I could sympathize with somebody in his position being forced to play.
Nal_Ra was probe rushing before it was cool~
|
On December 15 2011 07:10 FinestHour wrote:
Why are these even allowed to stay open.
User was warned for this post
Do you understand the point of forums? It is to talk and interact with other people.
As the poster above said the korean pride outweighs the progaming/esports pride when its their countries name at stake.
|
Good read in light of all that has happened. It doesn't show as much in the SC2 community but people who have had experience with the Korean community/culture understand Koreans have a lot of national pride, and knowing that makes it pretty easy to understand why Naniwa was treated so harshly compared to stork in this particular case.
They can be pretty xenophobic and have a lot of cultural pride in themselves and expect themselves to be the best, especially in something like starcraft where they have dominated for a good while now.
When stork threw those games to try and make a Korean top 3 sweep, he was doing it to preserve their national pride, so his incredibly obvious unsportsmanlike conduct was swept under the rug without any real backlash about being a professional and all that, the Koreans wanted a sweep that they believed they deserved and that's what his intentions were so nobody cared.
Now in Naniwas case, he threw a rather unimportant match with both players having all been eliminated. To us westerners its not really a big deal because its a match that was meaningless in terms of the tournament, and professional athletes do way worse and far more disrespectful acts all the time in televised games of other sports. However to Koreans, Naniwa was an outsider participating as a guest in their league in Korea, who disrespected a Korean fan favorite.
Comparing the two, storks actions where much more severe as he purposely threw games to mess with placements that actually mattered compared to the 0-3 showdown, neither of them broke any rules, but one was a national hero and the other had his spot in a major league pulled from him.
Don't get me wrong i am not trying be racist, or trying to imply that Koreans are racist, but the fact is our cultures on the matter are vastly different on the subject of what happened with Naniwa/stork. Its a touchy subject for both sides, and hopefully a better resolution can be met. Personally i believe Naniwa was in the wrong, but i don't think he can be punished so harshly when there are no rules really against what he did, hes instead being punished by their cultural beliefs.
In the future GOM should have an updated rule book with specific boundaries and regulations players must abide to in order to prevent another incident like this.
|
There is a clear difference between playing not your full strategy or playing to your potential and just losing the game in a disrespectful manner.
Sure both examples are not good as a spectator but just blatantly losing on purpose just because you don't want to play the game is much worse than not playing to full potential.
What Stork did was definitely not the best and a lot of people would find those kind of actions with a negative view (including me, a korean).
Naniwa could've done a 4 gate and u know what? No one would've flamed him or get upset at him (maybe a couple). But, Naniwa just decided to do something that has 0% chance of winning in the most shocking way. He has to realize that even though he is playing for money, GSL is a production, a show, and its job is to entertain people with good games. Naniwa was invited to this prestigious tournament that was meant to be a celebration. I understand that he got upset he lost his first three games and he couldve did some crazy cheese, at least thats more entertaining.
I'm glad that Naniwa apologized and GSL gave its explanations as well.
p.s. GSL wasn't going to give any Code S seed from MLG Providence anyway because the contract was for 2011, not 2012. Also, you dont see korean invites to MLG Providence, they all went with points.
|
At least Stork wasn't doing probe rush like naniwa
|
On December 15 2011 07:09 Keone wrote:
I'm sorry, are you saying Koreans don't take thrown games seriously?
... have you ever heard of this ex-progamer named Savior before? ... are you kidding me? Though Savior did it for money, the reason he was crucified on the stake is because he threw games.
And Stork played a full game. If he had 5-probe-rushed, I guarantee that the Korean community would have been pissed as hell. Plus you really don't have any proof that he DID throw the games.
Essentially if Naniwa had played a shitty game VS Nestea, none of this would have mattered. The fact that he openly showed his disrespect to his opponent is what I think the GOM people cared about.
Let's try not to be so racist in the thread and OP, okay?
Nani played a full probe rush game as well. A throw is a throw; when you start judging the quality of the throw (oh his throw took so much more effort!) it's a slippery slope to justifying all kinds of unexcusable behaviors.
|
Glad to know WCG, stork's team, kespa, and all the viewers are the exact same people who run/watch GomTV. Oh wait.
Even if they were, you don't really understand what hypocrisy is.
|
It's true, Koreans aren't immune to social effects. And in general it's easier in a situation like Naniwa's to just bandwagon against the person than approach the situation more rationally.
On December 15 2011 08:54 Shana wrote:
At least Stork wasn't doing probe rush like naniwa
One of the great tragedies of the real match-fixing scandal was that we would find certain games suspect long after the fact because it was inherently deceptive. Naniwa made his intentions perfectly clear, and the game was effectively a forfeit. My point is that if anything, the case of stork at WCG or for instance Hwasin in KeSPA leagues is that if you try to make your game look legitimate, then you really are betraying the fans because they presume the game was played honorably, and there's some other goal involved (betting). Naniwa just didn't care, and he didn't want to play. And that was obvious in the game.
|
Its the same. We just need to get better
|
On December 15 2011 07:37 vnlegend wrote:
Difference is Stork actually tried to play the games. Albeit doing dumb things, but at least he put on a performance. Naniwa did no such thing. This is the typical westerner individualized selfish way of looking at things. GOMTV is running an entertainment company. In no such way should such a thing be tolerated.
Oh, so it's ok if you hide it, even badly, like Hero did for instance.
Like I said in another thread, nani should have proxyed 2 gates or canon rushing like Hero. Throwing the game, but as long as you build some buildings, it's ok...nice double standard.
|
|
|
Great blog post, sadly stuff like this does not get highlighted.
|
...This kind of argument was already made, there's clearly a difference because there was a strategic benefit to losing the game for further performance in the tournament, whereas that clearly was not the case in the Blizzard Cup.
|
On December 15 2011 09:12 Phyrful wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:09 Keone wrote:
I'm sorry, are you saying Koreans don't take thrown games seriously?
... have you ever heard of this ex-progamer named Savior before? ... are you kidding me? Though Savior did it for money, the reason he was crucified on the stake is because he threw games.
And Stork played a full game. If he had 5-probe-rushed, I guarantee that the Korean community would have been pissed as hell. Plus you really don't have any proof that he DID throw the games.
Essentially if Naniwa had played a shitty game VS Nestea, none of this would have mattered. The fact that he openly showed his disrespect to his opponent is what I think the GOM people cared about.
Let's try not to be so racist in the thread and OP, okay? Nani played a full probe rush game as well. A throw is a throw; when you start judging the quality of the throw (oh his throw took so much more effort!) it's a slippery slope to justifying all kinds of unexcusable behaviors.
You have it backwards. When you start counting stuff like bad 4gates as "throws", it's a slippery slope as to what counts as a "throw", because maybe one player just played poorly.
Whenever there is reasonable doubt, a game should not be counted as a thrown game. Innocent until proven guilty. The problem in Nani's situation is that there is no reasonable doubt at all as to whether he threw the game.
|
On December 15 2011 11:00 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
...This kind of argument was already made, there's clearly a difference because there was a strategic benefit to losing the game for further performance in the tournament, whereas that clearly was not the case in the Blizzard Cup.
Yea these threads are ridiculous. There is a clear difference between throwing a game so the clearly superior players can compete in the finals vs some scrub played poorly so he gets throws games out of poor sportsmanship.
On December 15 2011 10:55 0800 wrote:
Great blog post, sadly stuff like this does not get highlighted.
A sad day for teamliquid when things like this are thrown in the spotlight.
|
It's because Stork is kinda of a hypocrite.
|
On December 15 2011 11:00 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
...This kind of argument was already made, there's clearly a difference because there was a strategic benefit to losing the game for further performance in the tournament, whereas that clearly was not the case in the Blizzard Cup.
Yes so let's penalize the person whose actions had no negative consequence more severely? No, that doesn't make sense.
|
Sorry, this is not the same exact situation naniwa was in. Double standards do exist, but a korean in the same position as naniwa would have received the same or more severe punihsment.
It's like saying people are hypocrites if they eat meat and say they love animals when they could sustain themselves perfectly fine off vegetables/fruit. Was it okay in your said situation? No, but they are under different circumstances and different mindsets. This has absolutely nothing to do with race and it makes foreigners look bad when you try to play the race card. Mr. Chae has done everything possible to make SC2 a global esport, and he gave the spots to foreigners. This is just plain fanboyism not accepting what naniwa did was wrong.
|
I don't think its the same situation...
|
On December 15 2011 12:13 Jonoman92 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:00 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
...This kind of argument was already made, there's clearly a difference because there was a strategic benefit to losing the game for further performance in the tournament, whereas that clearly was not the case in the Blizzard Cup. Yes so let's penalize the person whose actions had no negative consequence more severely? No, that doesn't make sense. Not sure how people don't understand this, naniwa didn't change anything in the tournament other then hurt some oversensitive feelings. Stork did his best to bend the brackets in his favor by clearly throwing multiple matches, and hes a hero.
|
On December 15 2011 12:07 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:00 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
...This kind of argument was already made, there's clearly a difference because there was a strategic benefit to losing the game for further performance in the tournament, whereas that clearly was not the case in the Blizzard Cup. Yea these threads are ridiculous. There is a clear difference between throwing a game so the clearly superior players can compete in the finals vs some scrub played poorly so he gets throws games out of poor sportsmanship.
Yes, there is a big difference, throwing games to fix the tournament is much worse.
|
This isn't even the only time this has happened... it seems tolerated to collude games when it's Koreans together doing it or teammates doing it. And it's much much worse than blatantly forfeiting a game.
The hypocritical part is simply pre-arranging matches, in any form. It doesn't matter if it's a different situation. There's all this faux-outrage from Korean pro's which in my opinion is complete bullshit and they would happily collude results to split prize money or ensure progression in tournaments for people if needed. People like MC are making a huge deal out of a result being pre-determined by a player when there's a history of pre-determining matches with some of the complainers like MVP/Nestea even suspected. Least Naniwa isn't being intentionally deceiving for his own benefit, which is much worse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
