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1.) Masters.
2.) A.)I have lost games because of this, Unable to get the information I need such as the Terran having no Raxes in main and no gas. I also have to change my BO up based on scouting information if I scout them first and see that they went gas first I got 15Gas 16Pool if I do not scout them I go 14Pool 14Gas(This is after 15Hatch ZvT).
B.) Randomness in BO nearly cost me the game once, I'm sure its happened before but this is the only one I remember. I scout the Terran Close Positions Lost Temple, I see they went gas first I still went 14/14 because of close positions and prepared for Hellions. Once my scouting Drone died they took all SCVs out of gas and laid down 5 more Rax, the only reason I held it was I sacced an Overlord before the attack came.
C.) This happens quite often as Zerg the Terran partols 2 Marines at the place your OL is and a Marine at the front of his base, you are completly blind and must prepare for everything, as an opening can only tell so much. I've lost the game because I was unable to scout the impending Marine SCV all in, because I prepared for Banshees/Hellion Drops.
3.)
A.)That is quite the pain when they are building a Bunker between your Minerals and your expansions Hatch it severly punishes the Zerg while the Terran doesn't have to do anything but I don't have any issues with it. My only issue is when they can cancel the SCV from building and start again making the SCV bounce to a random position again making it very difficult to get the drones to hit it.
D.) Could you explain what you mean by this? As I didn't know there was a random burrow animation duration.
7.) I do think a certain aspect of randomness but not game ending randomness.
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On December 07 2011 22:52 -Dustin- wrote:
B.) Randomness in BO nearly cost me the game once, I'm sure its happened before but this is the only one I remember. I scout the Terran Close Positions Lost Temple, I see they went gas first I still went 14/14 because of close positions and prepared for Hellions. Once my scouting Drone died they took all SCVs out of gas and laid down 5 more Rax, the only reason I held it was I sacced an Overlord before the attack came.
That sounds anything but random... It sounds very well thought out. I don't actually see how the OP lists BO's as being random TBH...
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On December 07 2011 22:56 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 22:52 -Dustin- wrote:
B.) Randomness in BO nearly cost me the game once, I'm sure its happened before but this is the only one I remember. I scout the Terran Close Positions Lost Temple, I see they went gas first I still went 14/14 because of close positions and prepared for Hellions. Once my scouting Drone died they took all SCVs out of gas and laid down 5 more Rax, the only reason I held it was I sacced an Overlord before the attack came.
That sounds anything but random... It sounds very well thought out. I don't actually see how the OP lists BO's as being random TBH...
Well I figured I would include it since it was in the OP. I could've just misunderstood what he meant. It wasn't well thought out although it was one of them "I scouted Z close positions all in time" which in his place I would've done the same thing. But I do see how it should count as the BO was a Hellion expand and then it randomly changes from what you thought.
Maybe the OP meant randomness in the BOs we do?
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I think a good starting point for any discussion of randomness would be an understanding of the difference between "random", "arbitrary" and "unpredictable".
Starting locations are random. BO's are not. You're not going to encounter a Protoss going 8 gate into 2-worker rush into double robo/stargate and then cannon rush your third. There are a number of possible openings that you need to worry about before you get scouting information, one of which has been chosen arbitrarily by your opponent.
Failing to scout something also has nothing to do with randomness, it just makes the current state of the game less well known and forces you to either take an intentinoal risk or play a more generalized style until you can get more information.
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Im confised. There seem to be a problem with the terms used?
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The only thing thats really random are the starting locations (and in case of your opponent playing random: his race). Everything else are either game elements (like scvs building) or things that result from playing another human being, these things can be figured out.
In soccer its random which team starts on which side. I wouldnt say in soccer, one team suffered from a random attack and therefore the other team could score. It's rather that the team didnt consider the opposing team to launch such an attack and therefore let them score a goal.
Another example: Poker. Ask a poker player how hes affected by the randomness in poker (LOL).
Despite it being very random what cards you get you can get much better at the game than others.
Its the same in Starcraft 2. The better player will read the chances and risks of doing certain things much better than his oponnent and will therefore end up winning more games.
Btw im master league. I never lose because of something random. I lose because i read the map or my opponent wrong
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1. What league are you on the Starcraft2 ladder?
Master's Zerg
2. These are instances we have been able to identify in Starcraft2 where random occurrences can take precedence over skill. Explain if and how they affect you.
A) Random starting locations
B) Randomness in build orders (BO losses, BO wins).
C) Randomness due to lack of accurate scouting (Scouting at the right place at the right time, not being able to scout everything e.g. Army movement, tech, baneling landmines, etc.).
A used to be a big effect with maps with close spawning positions like Metal. Scrap station was positionally imbalanced with the extra creep tumor being required for the top position which made spine crawler defense slightly harder.
B&C I don't consider random. At most you take a calculated risk of knowing how complete your scouting information is or how safe you are vs different BOs.
3. Do these small random factors affect you? Explain how they affect you.
A) SCVs random movement during construction.
B) Random creep spread growth.
C) Random larvae movement.
D) Random burrow/unborrow animation duration.
A can save or delay the death of an SCV that's building an offensive bunker and can have a notable effect, but very rarely.
B has only ever been an issue for me on Tal-darim alter where in ZvZ you could defend speedling aggression with a wall-in + roaches, but the positioning required creep spread from the hatchery to extend out. The random creep spread would potentially go against your favor and delay the buildings needed for the partial wall-in exposing you to a speedling timing.
So I have fallen behind due to random effects, but rarely and never so much that I couldn't have won or reduced my odds of failing due to bad luck.
4. Can you identify any more? Explain how they affect you.
No I can't.
5. How do you adapt your strategies to handle randomness in Starcraft2?
Not at all other than scouting patterns.
6. How large do you think the impact of randomness is on the outcome of the average StarCraft 2 match?
Very little to none.
7. Do you think randomness needs to be a part of any competitive RTS game?
Other than starting position, no. The variances in execution, scouting, and build orders are psuedo-random (they're actually a deterministic result of player input), so they appear to cause random flucuations and bring the game into an infinite number of different game states without actually being random. As such they cover any problem that actual randomness would need to solve while still giving players the ability to control the randomness.
8. Do you have anything to add?
Nope
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I think randomness is more of a factor in lower leagues. At a higher level of play, players have a better understanding of what an opponent could possibly be doing, and also they are better at scouting. And they are are better at making inferences from their scouting - eg, they see an opponent taking an early 3rd and 4th gas and they can know a lot from this.
But until you get fairly good these things don't mean anything to you, so the game seems fairly random.
Also of course at higher levels players will try to trick each other, such as putting down buildings and then cancelling them after they know they've been scouted.
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Randomness due to lack of accurate scouting (Scouting at the right place at the right time, not being able to scout everything e.g. Army movement, tech, baneling landmines, etc.).
There is no randomness in that... People need to stop involving luck or randomness when it comes to scouting.
If you fail to scout accurately, it's a mistake on your part. There is no "I was lucky my opponent didn't scout the proxy rax". It's all about "my opponent made a mistake: he failed to scout my proxy rax".
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build orders and scouting are not random. If you are in a game theory class you should be defining your terms more rigorously. You did however miss the randomness that obtains when two marines battle each other, for instance. I think there was a thread about this before.
edit: to clarify, scouting and build orders are blind decisions, not random.
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On December 08 2011 04:27 sam!zdat wrote:
build orders and scouting are not random. If you are in a game theory class you should be defining your terms more rigorously. You did however miss the randomness that obtains when two marines battle each other, for instance. I think there was a thread about this before.
That's actually one somewhat significant place where random numbers are used in SC2. It really bothers me that combat outcomes aren't deterministic (from a player's perspective, obviously they're deterministic in a real sense). I know there's some element of chance in combat for BW and WC3 too, but I feel like you should always know what the outcome of a battle is if you know the positions and number of the units involved at the beginning.
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It has been really interesting to see what you all have written so far ^^
I think we made a mistake in how we formulated 2B and 2C so here's an explanation for them: We know these two instances of "randomness" are not due to any actual randomness in the game mechanics. We do however believe there are situations when the best option is to take a risk(and therefore at least partially leave your fate to chance); this is what we meant. Although we are not by any means good at this game so please tell us if we are wrong.
We realize that asking what people do about this is not going to yield very interesting answers, so let us ask something else: Do you take these chances? why/why not?
Thanks for the answers so far!
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On December 08 2011 05:11 Joppe wrote:
It has been really interesting to see what you all have written so far ^^
I think we made a mistake in how we formulated 2B and 2C so here's an explanation for them: We know these two instances of "randomness" are not due to any actual randomness in the game mechanics. We do however believe there are situations when the best option is to take a risk(and therefore at least partially leave your fate to chance); this is what we meant. Although we are not by any means good at this game so please tell us if we are wrong.
We realize that asking what people do about this is not going to yield very interesting answers, so let us ask something else: Do you take these chances? why/why not?
Thanks for the answers so far!
Thats a much better question 
Yes I take these risks. For example TvT (sometimes TvZ) on taldarimaltar i have been goin for 15 cc a lot lately. This is just me reading the map (guessing that opponent will most likely go for some kind expand and not be hyperagressive) and normally i will have an advantage going into the macro game.
Another thing in TvZ that relies on abit of luck is a 2 factory reactor helion attack with like 10+ helions. I do this on maps with small chokepoints like shakuras or large distances like taldarim where the zerg player will most likely think that hes fine with couple spine crawlers and favor lings over roaches. Often i can just runby and kill so many drones that im far ahead. However im in a very bad position if he goes roaches. Its a gamble but in my experience it pays off in most cases.
In some cases you will just lose for example 15cc vs 14 pool. These are losses you have to accept for playin greedy.
I think these mind games are very interesting and especially when i watch a bo5 in mlg or gsl for example its interesting to see some players "outbrain" the other player as the series goes on.
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EPT
