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Want to program video games? - Page 4

Blogs > CecilSunkure
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Hairy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1169 Posts
December 02 2011 08:16 GMT
#61
I went into programming, and was in the games industry for a whopping 18 months. My advice personally to anyone wanting to become a "game designer" is... to stop. Most games DESIGN degrees are actually a sham, and are not teaching the skills that games development studios actually want - make sure your degree course is not one of those. And do you actually know what a game DESIGN job is?

How does the menu flow work?
What menus will there be?
What button presses do what?
What button hints will we show on the screen?
What happens when we press those buttons?
What happens if he presses different buttons?
What help text should we display?
When should that help text appear?
Will that help text have a delay in appearing? How big should that delay be?
Will that help text work ok in different languages?
Are any of the game UI elements too close to the edge of the screen? (nintendo enforced)

Game DESIGN involves solving ALL those questions, and thousands and thousands more, and extensively documenting it. You don't do the art - the art is done by artists. You don't actually make it happen, as that is done by the programmers. You don't think of and make the cool sounds or music, as that is done by the music guys. Your job is to write a document. Every_SINGLE_DETAIL of how EVERYTHING works must be documented exactly. That is what game design is. Very little of it is thinking up what cool weapons you use etc. In fact, you'll be lucky if you have much choice in the matter - a lot of the time you'll be designing a game that fits what the publisher needs/wants (the publisher is the company funding the work on your game), and you will have a strict budget you need to stick to (cool ideas usually take time (and therefore money) to implement).

I would also warn that I don't think you'll ever get a job out of university with a game 'designer' degree. Very small indie games companies require someone else already in the team (a programmer/artist) to take on the responsibilities of that role - they can't afford to pay someone just to design. Big companies have the money to hire someone with proven skill and experience, OR they can take someone from their team that they know and trust and have them do the role instead. Why would you hire someone fresh out of university, with no experience or proven track record to do one of the most important jobs?

If you want in the games industry, don't aim for games design. Do music, or art, or programming (incidentally, do C++, not C). You can move onto games designer later after you've gained experience in the industry.


On November 20 2011 06:54 Inori wrote:
Recently I keep hearing from various sources that game dev is worst position a programmer can go to in terms of work stress. You're forced to work hard for months, constantly doing overtime (even unpaid) because of deadlines and etc. Then you finish it, have a little party and the cycle begins again with next title.

Is this in any way true?

Yes. Overtime is almost always unpaid, and it is expected. It is not constant, but you WILL have to do overtime. At my job I did 4 weeks where I was in the office will 9 - 10pm at night, and I didn't see a penny of extra cash. You are constantly working towards the next deadline, and often it is a pretty intense working environment.

I don't intend to dissuade people TOO much - there IS still fun to be had. But, realistically, only go into it if you absolutely adore MAKING games (making is very different from playing), and you intend to put in the work required. Only the most dedicated are going to actually make it into the industry, and only the most passionate of those are going to stay there. The games industry is incredibly competitive, so you need to be fantastic. Go and learn some programming like in the opening post in your free time. Go and learn MORE programming. Do projects off your own back, in your own time. If this is sounding too much like hard work... it probably is. Because there are people out there who have the passion to spend almost all of their free time just programming, improving their craft, and practicing to get better. If you can't be at least as good as them you're going to find it difficult.

Become a hobbyist game programmer, and if you still ADORE it then go for it. If you just like games, and think working on games will be cool... you need to rethink.
Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits
leperphilliac
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States399 Posts
December 02 2011 08:26 GMT
#62
On December 02 2011 17:16 Hairy wrote:
I went into programming, and was in the games industry for a whopping 18 months. My advice personally to anyone wanting to become a "game designer" is... to stop. Most games DESIGN degrees are actually a sham, and are not teaching the skills that games development studios actually want - make sure your degree course is not one of those. And do you actually know what a game DESIGN job is?

How does the menu flow work?
What menus will there be?
What button presses do what?
What button hints will we show on the screen?
What happens when we press those buttons?
What happens if he presses different buttons?
What help text should we display?
When should that help text appear?
Will that help text have a delay in appearing? How big should that delay be?
Will that help text work ok in different languages?
Are any of the game UI elements too close to the edge of the screen? (nintendo enforced)

Game DESIGN involves solving ALL those questions, and thousands and thousands more, and extensively documenting it. You don't do the art - the art is done by artists. You don't actually make it happen, as that is done by the programmers. You don't think of and make the cool sounds or music, as that is done by the music guys. Your job is to write a document. Every_SINGLE_DETAIL of how EVERYTHING works must be documented exactly. That is what game design is. Very little of it is thinking up what cool weapons you use etc. In fact, you'll be lucky if you have much choice in the matter - a lot of the time you'll be designing a game that fits what the publisher needs/wants (the publisher is the company funding the work on your game), and you will have a strict budget you need to stick to (cool ideas usually take time (and therefore money) to implement).

I would also warn that I don't think you'll ever get a job out of university with a game 'designer' degree. Very small indie games companies require someone else already in the team (a programmer/artist) to take on the responsibilities of that role - they can't afford to pay someone just to design. Big companies have the money to hire someone with proven skill and experience, OR they can take someone from their team that they know and trust and have them do the role instead. Why would you hire someone fresh out of university, with no experience or proven track record to do one of the most important jobs?

If you want in the games industry, don't aim for games design. Do music, or art, or programming (incidentally, do C++, not C). You can move onto games designer later after you've gained experience in the industry.


Show nested quote +
On November 20 2011 06:54 Inori wrote:
Recently I keep hearing from various sources that game dev is worst position a programmer can go to in terms of work stress. You're forced to work hard for months, constantly doing overtime (even unpaid) because of deadlines and etc. Then you finish it, have a little party and the cycle begins again with next title.

Is this in any way true?

Yes. Overtime is almost always unpaid, and it is expected. It is not constant, but you WILL have to do overtime. At my job I did 4 weeks where I was in the office will 9 - 10pm at night, and I didn't see a penny of extra cash. You are constantly working towards the next deadline, and often it is a pretty intense working environment.

I don't intend to dissuade people TOO much - there IS still fun to be had. But, realistically, only go into it if you absolutely adore MAKING games (making is very different from playing), and you intend to put in the work required. Only the most dedicated are going to actually make it into the industry, and only the most passionate of those are going to stay there. The games industry is incredibly competitive, so you need to be fantastic. Go and learn some programming like in the opening post in your free time. Go and learn MORE programming. Do projects off your own back, in your own time. If this is sounding too much like hard work... it probably is. Because there are people out there who have the passion to spend almost all of their free time just programming, improving their craft, and practicing to get better. If you can't be at least as good as them you're going to find it difficult.

Become a hobbyist game programmer, and if you still ADORE it then go for it. If you just like games, and think working on games will be cool... you need to rethink.


Damn, this post is sobering. Just wondering, though, isn't unpaid overtime highly illegal?
horsman
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada45 Posts
December 02 2011 08:42 GMT
#63
On December 02 2011 17:26 leperphilliac wrote:
Damn, this post is sobering. Just wondering, though, isn't unpaid overtime highly illegal?


It varies from place to place. The poster you quoted has a good warning about the sobering reality of trying to be only a game designer without a skill to bring to the table. Many salaried workers in many industries work unpaid overtime. In games it is even more common than most, but less than say a lawyer.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
December 02 2011 08:46 GMT
#64
I would personally recommend people to learn SDL instead of working with ASCII in the console. It's actually extremely easy to learn and allows you to make far better looking games. SDL not only lets you work with "real" graphics easily, it also includes support for gamepads and joysticks, audio etc.

If you're good enough at C to program a proper game in the console, you can easily learn to do the same thing in SDL.
skipgamer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia701 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 09:45:33
December 02 2011 08:59 GMT
#65
I like this blog post, except for the word hobbyist in the first sentence... (I actually opened the post after seeing it on the front page and hoping it had some insightful tips for me as a hobbyist.)

A beginner hobbyist game programmer should not bother learning C, it is not worth the time, and I'd be surprised to hear a professional recommend it (to a hobbyist) either. Better off focusing on learning a language/engine/SDK that has the tools and meets the requirements of whatever type of game you're trying to make.

Sure it may not exactly be "programming" in the eyes of professionals, but there is a big difference between wanting to be a professional game programmer, and wanting to make games as a hobby. You can (and have to) get your hands dirty with coding regardless of what language/engine/SDK you choose if you are going it alone.


6 years as a hobbyist programmer/game developer with the UT2k4 engine (unrealscript), Source engine(c++), Java, Actionscript and the UnrealEngine(unrealscript+actionscript) have taught me this. (oh, i should chuck in a brief stint with SourceMod, a serverside modification for the source engine with a custom scripting language too)

If I started by learning C, I wouldn't have had anywhere near the amount of experience I've had... That being said, I've never actually taken a project to completion (the most I could say I have created is a proof of concept), but that's what being a hobbyist is all about right? It's the journey, not the destination.
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 09:05:38
December 02 2011 09:04 GMT
#66
Writing games in the windows console can be fun, but I don't think it teaches you very much about how to do anything else. Knowing memory management is well and good, but modern coding is all about abstraction. I hardly think building a new game engine from scratch is common practice anywhere these days. Why reinvent the wheel when you can just build onto an existing, proven library?

As has been already said, game designing is a collaborative effort outside indie studios, and you generally have very little influence yourself. And if you want to make your game, you can't spend your time writing low level memory management code, you'll never see anything close to a finished product. Swallow your pride and use someone else's code, use an API or a finished engine. Your game doesn't need to be cutting edge, minecraft looks like shit but it's still a great game.

If you want to make a game and see some real results before you die, try Cocos2D. There are 3D APIs as well, but I haven't tried any.

On December 02 2011 17:59 skipgamer wrote:
I like this blog post, except for the word hobbyist in the first sentence...

A beginner hobbyist game programmer should not bother learning C, it is not worth the time, and I'd be surprised to hear a professional recommend it either. Better off focusing on learning a language/engine/SDK that has the tools and meets the requirements of whatever type of game you're trying to make.

Sure it may not exactly be "programming" in the eyes of professionals, but there is a big difference between wanting to be a professional game programmer, and wanting to make games as a hobby. You can (and have to) get your hands dirty with coding regardless of what language/engine/SDK you choose if you are going it alone.


6 years as a hobbyist programmer/game developer with the UT2k4 engine (unrealscript), Source engine(c++), Java, Actionscript and the UnrealEngine(unrealscript+actionscript) have taught me this.

If I started by learning C, I wouldn't have had anywhere near the amount of experience I've had... That being said, I've never actually taken a project to completion (the most I could say I have created is a proof of concept), but that's what being a hobbyist is all about right? It's the journey, not the destination.

Lol you beat me to it :p
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
December 02 2011 09:29 GMT
#67
I've been a programmer in the industry for 8 or 9 years now.

In my experience it's much easier to teach a good programmer to make games than to teach a typical game programmer to be a good programmer.

Focus less on the fact that you're making games and more on solid programming mechanics.

If you have any questions I'd be happy to answer.

Here are some resources to read/watch/follow.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Free Lunch Is Over
An article explaining why programs have stopped getting magically faster as new hardware becomes available and foreshadows much of the current developments in programming and computer technology.

Herb Sutter Machine Architecture Talk (Slides)
Required viewing for serious developers regardless of language or platform.

Sutter’s Mill
Herb Sutter's blog.

Andrew Koenig's Blog
Andrew Koenig's blog.

XKCD
A webcomic that every programmer should know about.

C++Next
A blog about future directions of C++.

Standard Template Library Programmer's Guide
The STL might be the greatest programming interface every designed.

Boost C++ Libraries
Boost C++ Libraries are on par with the STL for the best thing since sliced bread.

Boost Mailing List Archive
Following and reading the Boost developer mailing list will teach you more about C++ that any book, school, or single person ever could. Unless that person was Steven Watanabe, who posts frequently on the this list. Following this list will make you better not only at C++ but at everything programming related.

Effective Concurrency
A series of articles by Herb Sutter explaining concurrency which is very very very important to modern high performance programming such as game development.

Real-Time Rendering
Real-Time Rendering blog
The definitive graphics programming book.

Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software
If I could only choose one book for a programmer that worked with me to know this would be it. The patterns and principles shown in this book are timeless and I use knowledge from this book daily. It's one of the few books I keep at my desk at all times.

Refactoring: Improving the Design of Existing Code
If this book only had the code smells chapter it would be required reading for any serious developer. This book teaches you how to make your code better consistently and reliably.

The Pragmatic Programmer
A good solid all-around book on best practices. It's also an easier read than most programming books.

Elements of Programming
This book is quite hard to get through but it is written by the creator of the STL and is probably the most scientific and correct discussion of computer programming available. The C++Next blog has many entries dedicated to working through the chapters of this book.

Applying UML and Patterns: An Introduction to Object-Oriented Analysis and Design and Iterative Development
Known in my circle as simply the Larman book. It's huge and not the easiest read but understanding UML is one of the greatest tools you can have as a programmer for expressing yourself to others. Especially class diagrams and sequence diagrams.

Inside the C++ Object Model
Everything that seems confusing or magic about C++ will become clear after reading this book. Understanding the C++ object model will help you to more readily understand other object models such as the Action Script object model used by Flash.

Exceptional C++
More Exceptional C++
Wonderful puzzles that teach great lessons about general programming, c++, error handling, memory management, inefficiency coding, etc.

Effective C++
More Effective C++
Effective STL
The most practical and easy to digest "do this" / "don't do that" guides to good C++.

C++ Coding Standards: 101 Rules, Guidelines, and Best Practices
Easy to digest great advice.

Beyond the C++ Standard Library: An Introduction to Boost
This is a bit outdated but still a good beginners introduction to Boost and why it's great.

Michael Abrash's Graphics Programming Black Book
As free downloads
An old book but still very interesting. Many of the lessons learned here, especially about ways to approach tough problems, are applicable still today.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Mirosuu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
England283 Posts
December 02 2011 09:36 GMT
#68
I would ask you why you learn game programming with C? What were the reasons given to you by Digipen? I always thought that C++ would be a significantly more powerful and expressive language for what you would want to do with a game. It doesn't even have performance drops compared to C and it boasts a lot of improvements upon the language.

One particular thing that bothers me is the debugging and error propagation techniques in C. I come from a Java background and am learning C++ rather intensively at the moment (should be doing final year CS work, but C++ is interesting... >_>) and I think that exceptions are a far better way to be handling errors than an if-else block with setjmp() and longjmp() calls.

Another question is why do you code your games in a console window? Aren't they rather limited in scope compared to a window created as part of a GUI?

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Ramuh
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany238 Posts
December 02 2011 09:41 GMT
#69
On December 02 2011 18:36 Mirosuu wrote:
Another question is why do you code your games in a console window? Aren't they rather limited in scope compared to a window created as part of a GUI?



I think that is the point
Mirosuu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
England283 Posts
December 02 2011 09:43 GMT
#70
On December 02 2011 18:41 Ramuh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2011 18:36 Mirosuu wrote:
Another question is why do you code your games in a console window? Aren't they rather limited in scope compared to a window created as part of a GUI?



I think that is the point



Meh, disregard my post then. I'm just being an idiot.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Nifoxeli
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Netherlands26 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 09:54:13
December 02 2011 09:48 GMT
#71
Damn, I really loved reading this. I used to play a lot with the Warcraft 3 map editor and some other editors but mostly the Warcraft 3 one. And that really made me want to be a gamedesigner. So now I'm currently following a Gamedeveloper education at the Noorderpoort College in the Netherlands. It was a new education when I started and I'm currently in my 4th year.
I started learning some of the basics in all area's. Some Flash, C# and 3D. And at the end of the first year I had to pick on of the three directions the OP had mentioned. We didnt have the Writers/Sound Engineers part strangely enough.
And I decided to go for the programmer side. I liked working with 3D aswell but I always wanted to be able to program games.

I'm now so far along with my education that I'm mostly working with XNA and C# and making simple games for the Xbox 360.
I cant even begin to describe how awesome it is now that I've come this far along.
Here's an image of a game I made in about 6-7 weeks time. I know the background is ugly as hell but I'm a shitty artist and I had to make a background to show my teachers I knew how to do that.
[image loading]
I think its quite clear what kind of style I wanted the game to be

brachester
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia1786 Posts
December 02 2011 10:08 GMT
#72
lol, i just started looking into these stuff yesterday, and you posted this today 0.o
Thank you Cecil, starcraft and Final Fantasy ftw!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hate all this singing
Clearout
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway1060 Posts
December 02 2011 10:21 GMT
#73
Java all the way <3 just started learning to make android apps on my spare time, in addition to the regular stuff I make at Uni. Hoping to make me some decent app games in the future.
really?
impression
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
413 Posts
December 02 2011 10:22 GMT
#74
I actually haven't had much experience with computers before, I have only had my own computer for the last 3 years, and I went into animation because I wanted to animate computer games. But I admit to having a slight leaning towards wanting to learn to program, however my maths skills aren't amazing and the little bit of programming experience I got from doing 3D animation (a small amount of MEL scripting and Python) and I don't think it was really for me, it frazzled my brain a little -_-
But this was a really interesting read, thank you for posting! I will just stick to the part of game making that I know, regardless of if I end up in that field or not
행운을 빌어요 재미
Calvin[Deck]
Profile Joined November 2010
Denmark88 Posts
December 02 2011 10:33 GMT
#75
On December 02 2011 18:04 Osmoses wrote:
Writing games in the windows console can be fun, but I don't think it teaches you very much about how to do anything else. Knowing memory management is well and good, but modern coding is all about abstraction. I hardly think building a new game engine from scratch is common practice anywhere these days. Why reinvent the wheel when you can just build onto an existing, proven library?

As has been already said, game designing is a collaborative effort outside indie studios, and you generally have very little influence yourself. And if you want to make your game, you can't spend your time writing low level memory management code, you'll never see anything close to a finished product. Swallow your pride and use someone else's code, use an API or a finished engine. Your game doesn't need to be cutting edge, minecraft looks like shit but it's still a great game.

If you want to make a game and see some real results before you die, try Cocos2D. There are 3D APIs as well, but I haven't tried any.

Show nested quote +
On December 02 2011 17:59 skipgamer wrote:
I like this blog post, except for the word hobbyist in the first sentence...

A beginner hobbyist game programmer should not bother learning C, it is not worth the time, and I'd be surprised to hear a professional recommend it either. Better off focusing on learning a language/engine/SDK that has the tools and meets the requirements of whatever type of game you're trying to make.

Sure it may not exactly be "programming" in the eyes of professionals, but there is a big difference between wanting to be a professional game programmer, and wanting to make games as a hobby. You can (and have to) get your hands dirty with coding regardless of what language/engine/SDK you choose if you are going it alone.


6 years as a hobbyist programmer/game developer with the UT2k4 engine (unrealscript), Source engine(c++), Java, Actionscript and the UnrealEngine(unrealscript+actionscript) have taught me this.

If I started by learning C, I wouldn't have had anywhere near the amount of experience I've had... That being said, I've never actually taken a project to completion (the most I could say I have created is a proof of concept), but that's what being a hobbyist is all about right? It's the journey, not the destination.

Lol you beat me to it :p



I am a professional programmer, and i have the complete opposite opinion. You have to start with the complete basic to get really good at something.

If you use flash+actionscript, or some other tool/API, yes you can have a lot if fun, and you will get faster to doing something.

But then you will hit a wall, where you want to do something that the tool does not easily provide. And by that point you will need the basic skills of programming, to extend the API you are using, instead of being limited by it.

I am not saying that you should not use some high level API, but eventually you need to get into really nasty technical details about some technology, if you have some need in your game, that are pushing the technology a bit.

That is why making simple games in ASCII art can improve your skills in programming a lot.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
December 02 2011 10:56 GMT
#76
On December 02 2011 19:33 Calvin[Deck] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2011 18:04 Osmoses wrote:
Writing games in the windows console can be fun, but I don't think it teaches you very much about how to do anything else. Knowing memory management is well and good, but modern coding is all about abstraction. I hardly think building a new game engine from scratch is common practice anywhere these days. Why reinvent the wheel when you can just build onto an existing, proven library?

As has been already said, game designing is a collaborative effort outside indie studios, and you generally have very little influence yourself. And if you want to make your game, you can't spend your time writing low level memory management code, you'll never see anything close to a finished product. Swallow your pride and use someone else's code, use an API or a finished engine. Your game doesn't need to be cutting edge, minecraft looks like shit but it's still a great game.

If you want to make a game and see some real results before you die, try Cocos2D. There are 3D APIs as well, but I haven't tried any.

On December 02 2011 17:59 skipgamer wrote:
I like this blog post, except for the word hobbyist in the first sentence...

A beginner hobbyist game programmer should not bother learning C, it is not worth the time, and I'd be surprised to hear a professional recommend it either. Better off focusing on learning a language/engine/SDK that has the tools and meets the requirements of whatever type of game you're trying to make.

Sure it may not exactly be "programming" in the eyes of professionals, but there is a big difference between wanting to be a professional game programmer, and wanting to make games as a hobby. You can (and have to) get your hands dirty with coding regardless of what language/engine/SDK you choose if you are going it alone.


6 years as a hobbyist programmer/game developer with the UT2k4 engine (unrealscript), Source engine(c++), Java, Actionscript and the UnrealEngine(unrealscript+actionscript) have taught me this.

If I started by learning C, I wouldn't have had anywhere near the amount of experience I've had... That being said, I've never actually taken a project to completion (the most I could say I have created is a proof of concept), but that's what being a hobbyist is all about right? It's the journey, not the destination.

Lol you beat me to it :p



I am a professional programmer, and i have the complete opposite opinion. You have to start with the complete basic to get really good at something.

If you use flash+actionscript, or some other tool/API, yes you can have a lot if fun, and you will get faster to doing something.

But then you will hit a wall, where you want to do something that the tool does not easily provide. And by that point you will need the basic skills of programming, to extend the API you are using, instead of being limited by it.

I am not saying that you should not use some high level API, but eventually you need to get into really nasty technical details about some technology, if you have some need in your game, that are pushing the technology a bit.

That is why making simple games in ASCII art can improve your skills in programming a lot.

While it's true that using extremely top-level stuff will leave you wanting eventually, I disagree that you have to start from the basics to remedy that. Say you're working with Flash and you're making a game. You make a game or two then come up with a great idea which you feel flash is inadequate for. That's the perfect time to go basic, you have experience making games in Flash, so you need to learn what you feel is appropriate.

I wouldn't expect someone to jump from making a flash game to making a C++ game, but I would think someone would have more motivation. Learning how to program is, at least IMO, not all that hard. Learning how to properly program a game, an enginge etc, is harder. If you know how to program in python, learning to program in C is not that bad and you will be motivated since you decided to learn C for a good reason, instead of motivating it by "it being basic".

I would personally recommend people to start using either C and SDL to make oldschool games were you have a ton of freedom, or XNA to make windows/xbox games. Both give you perfect freedom to make the games you want, yet give you the tools needed to not get stuck, such as audio and graphic frameworks.
skipgamer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia701 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 11:14:55
December 02 2011 11:12 GMT
#77
On December 02 2011 19:33 Calvin[Deck] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2011 18:04 Osmoses wrote:
Writing games in the windows console can be fun, but I don't think it teaches you very much about how to do anything else. Knowing memory management is well and good, but modern coding is all about abstraction. I hardly think building a new game engine from scratch is common practice anywhere these days. Why reinvent the wheel when you can just build onto an existing, proven library?

As has been already said, game designing is a collaborative effort outside indie studios, and you generally have very little influence yourself. And if you want to make your game, you can't spend your time writing low level memory management code, you'll never see anything close to a finished product. Swallow your pride and use someone else's code, use an API or a finished engine. Your game doesn't need to be cutting edge, minecraft looks like shit but it's still a great game.

If you want to make a game and see some real results before you die, try Cocos2D. There are 3D APIs as well, but I haven't tried any.

On December 02 2011 17:59 skipgamer wrote:
I like this blog post, except for the word hobbyist in the first sentence...

A beginner hobbyist game programmer should not bother learning C, it is not worth the time, and I'd be surprised to hear a professional recommend it either. Better off focusing on learning a language/engine/SDK that has the tools and meets the requirements of whatever type of game you're trying to make.

Sure it may not exactly be "programming" in the eyes of professionals, but there is a big difference between wanting to be a professional game programmer, and wanting to make games as a hobby. You can (and have to) get your hands dirty with coding regardless of what language/engine/SDK you choose if you are going it alone.


6 years as a hobbyist programmer/game developer with the UT2k4 engine (unrealscript), Source engine(c++), Java, Actionscript and the UnrealEngine(unrealscript+actionscript) have taught me this.

If I started by learning C, I wouldn't have had anywhere near the amount of experience I've had... That being said, I've never actually taken a project to completion (the most I could say I have created is a proof of concept), but that's what being a hobbyist is all about right? It's the journey, not the destination.

Lol you beat me to it :p



I am a professional programmer, and i have the complete opposite opinion. You have to start with the complete basic to get really good at something.

If you use flash+actionscript, or some other tool/API, yes you can have a lot if fun, and you will get faster to doing something.

But then you will hit a wall, where you want to do something that the tool does not easily provide. And by that point you will need the basic skills of programming, to extend the API you are using, instead of being limited by it.

I am not saying that you should not use some high level API, but eventually you need to get into really nasty technical details about some technology, if you have some need in your game, that are pushing the technology a bit.

That is why making simple games in ASCII art can improve your skills in programming a lot.

I don't mean to disagree with you, I'm just interested, don't you think it's appropriate at that point, when you hit that wall, to go out and learn how to get past that wall?

edit: had a big long rant here but I deleted it, because it was just that.
Clearout
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway1060 Posts
December 02 2011 11:49 GMT
#78
When I make small games I find nothing more enjoyable than seeing my "engine" in action, doing what I created it for. Making a good game (albeit small and simple) for me comes from making the engine, knowing exactly my limitations and possibilities, and having the knowledge to further add functionality. Then I can worry about how the game itself will unfold, often I end up with a completely different game than I intended just because of how my engine turned out. I see this as a good thing.
really?
grs
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany2339 Posts
December 02 2011 11:49 GMT
#79
On November 17 2011 05:56 Lysenko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 05:18 CecilSunkure wrote:
So I began to research. What I found is there are three main types of developers:
  • Programmers
  • Artists
  • Designers
  • Writers/Sound Engineers


At first I scratched my head, then I realized that like any good C programmer you started at an index of 0.


Really nice and intersting OP and it contained my personal joke of the day too
TBO
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany1350 Posts
December 02 2011 11:53 GMT
#80
On November 17 2011 05:40 CecilSunkure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2011 05:33 kaisen wrote:
I have a question. Right now I'm studying Game Design, but I've heard the position for Game Design is less demanding compared to programmers and artists. Is this true? Where do we fit in? I have no knowledge in programming and my art skill is very limited (even though, I know how to model characters with programs like 3ds Max, but it's not my desirable job position).

I've worked professionally at a game development studio working on Age of Empires Online, and the designers there were actually critical. Basically, as a development studio gets larger in numbers of employees, the studio can tackle larger projects. The larger the studio, the larger their projects are. In order for this to work, each employee added to the company makes the employees of the company more and more specialized. In smaller studios, especially, indi developers, people can be a generalist; they can program, do art, design, production all at once. But in a highly specialized position, you do a more narrow set of jobs but you do them very very well.

Designers are needed and in my opinion especially critical for larger projects. There are different sections of game design, however. At GPG (gas powered games) I worked mostly with a single designer focused on Player vs Player experience - we balanced the multiplayer game. There were other level designers, lead designers, designers that work for the publisher as a liaison, and concept artists (which sorta spill into design). So to answer your question honestly, I feel that there is a strong need in the industry for highly skilled and valuable designers, but there is a lot less demand for entry-level design positions. Because of this designers here at DigiPen study design alongside with something else. Here you can be a designer with a heavy programming background, or heavy art-focused background. It's sort of funny, the CS focused design degree here is basically identical to the dedicated CS degree for the first year. This makes you more versatile and competent as a designer overall.

Hope that helps!


guess you worked with Eric?^^ he is a cool dude
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