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Hey guys, I was playing some ladder matches earlier today, and one of those matches stood out with me. I was playing with a Protoss player on Xel'Naga Caverns. I said "hi hf" as I usually do, (even though I was met with no response) and continued to do my standard build. I sent my scout an noticed a pylon placed in the position for a forge fast expand.
I sent my probe into the bushes and built a pylon, followed by a robo facility. I sent in a few units to check his army size, and realized he didn't actually have an army, just 3 cannons. So I gathered a few zealots outside of the natural and began chronoboosting immortals out. I got two before I sent my zealots out, followed by the immortals from the side. The immortals ripped through the cannons, and the rest of my army devoured what little forces he had.
I knew it was GG, and continued to wreck his natural, followed by his main. I felt pretty proud of doing something I wouldn't usually do. Proxy immortals ending the game at the 10 minute mark is pretty hard to stop if you don't scout. (Which he didn't)
I was think later about if it could be considered cheese. I thought it could only be considered cheese if you also include the Terran 1/1/1 build and any spawning pools Zerg players make before their first overlord. I think it's more on the lines of a proxy stargate, factory, or starport. (Which I don't consider cheese)
My question to you is, what's the funniest/most unexpected thing you've ever done to a player, fast expanding or not? Would you consider cheese, or just pure creativity.
PS - Just for a note, I'm not saying I'm the first to use a build like this. I'm almost 100% sure it's been done before, it's just the first time I've done something I could laugh about.
  
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Osaka27154 Posts
Not cheese at all. You executed a good strategy to win the game based on what your opponent was doing. That is the whole point of the game.
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In a ZvT on Shakuras, he proxy 11/11 raxed me, I had to cancel my natural, but I still had my drone scout out. I built a hatch in his base. It worked so well, but I'm yet to run into another situation where I can use it again. Even the terran laughed, because he spent all his money leap frogging bunkers into my main that he never thought to scout his base competely.
Edit: Also, no I don't consider it cheese. If you started doing proxy robo every game without scouting then I would cheese, but this was just a funny response to a fast expand build.
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Depends on your definition of cheese, I would totally call that cheese but that's just me.
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Well it's punishing someone who decided that they'd play a zerg strategy against a protoss player. Not cheese, good decision making
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Personally, it really annoys me (not saying you're doing it) when people call things cheese that aren't remotely cheesing.
Generally it happens whenever you scout early, see a FE, and go, "okay, i have three choices. I can either FE with them and stay on par in economy and macro; I can keep doing whatever I was going to do anyway; or...I can go pressure him and either severely cripple him or just kill him.
And if you do the last one, you're called a cheeser instead of someone that's just playing intelligently and making a correct decision to take advantage of a clear vulnerability in the opponent's play, and it's simply because someone tried to be greedy or tried to be whatever blindly, without really having a clue what you're doing or knowing how to stop it.
And in your situation, if he'd found your proxy by scouting around his own expo he was trying to build, you'd probably have lost your robo and been way the hell behind if he how to respond. But it's literally, "if he bothered to scout". instead of taking that responsibility for thier own failure though, people generalize it under "cheese".
So no. I don't think you cheesed.
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Who cares if it's cheese, you won?
I don't think it's cheese. cheese usually is blindly done imo
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
In PvP, there are very few builds that are "cheese"... it's a very aggressive, strident matchup. Your opponent didn't scout appropriately, and you reacted adequately to his low-unit build. A well-earned victory.
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Well FFEing in a pvp.. he's pretty much asking for it lol.
It's not a cheese. You scouted a flaw in his opener and responded quickly enough to exploit it. Props to you :D
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Canada13389 Posts
You stole that nerds ladder points in a monstrously awesome way. GJ!
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it's definitely a risky allin, although since it's responsive rather than blind I wouldn't exactly call it cheese
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Let's just say too many are lactose intolerant.
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FE in a PvP is kinda cheesy actually...
It depends how you defend cheese, like people said. To me, cheese are the extreme strategies that set the boundaries and requirements on what longer sighted, safer approaches must do. They are the things that are strong but only when the opponent fails to recognize those boundaries and requirements--in your case, the guy was doing FE and failed to scout some kind of proxy I guess. I say that his FE could meet this definition of cheese because if he got away with the FE then he comes out ahead, but of course his "cheese" then dictates that your approach deal with this threat in some way or another (which it did). So his approach was the "cheese", not yours--his approach looked for an easy advantage in such a way that the other player's normal play should by principle prevent or deal w/ it. That's how I think about what is and isn't cheese.
For instead in BW, you could think of early pools as cheeses because they come out behind if the other player's approach takes them into account, but they punish or get the stronger advantage against those that have neglected the boundaries and obligations that, say, the threat of a 4 pool may put into the structure of the game. Cheeses are those things that just fall apart except that the opponent may choose to assume you won't do something so suck in order to have a slight advantage in more routine play.
Cheese -> free advantage against someone who refuses to do the required level of safety/prevention against Cheeses
Safety -> someone who's plan should come out even or better against a Cheese, but pays (usually very little) for it
Glutton -> gets a (usually small) boost vs. the Safety player by risking a less than even exchange with Cheese.
To me this kind of thinking dictates the basic beginnings of most RTS games, so finding all the Cheeses is the first step in hashing out how to open up a game.
Maybe it's an unusual definition of "cheese" but that's how I think about it.
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Anytime some one pulls out a really weird expand timing, I usually double expand myself =p I figure if you're going to play greedy, I'll play double greedy
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There's no such thing as cheese. Play to win you scrubs.
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I guess I should clarify my previous post. I consider all RTS gameplay to either be aggressive (opposing resource destruction), passive (resource preservation and safety), or greedy (taking a risk to increase resource acquisition). These usually counter one another in a rock-paper-scissors style. In a game of limited information like Starcraft, you must be ready to deal with each in the opening phases of the game, and push whatever resource advantages you have to gain advantages in other areas. If you lose to cheese it's your fault. The fact that there are some pretty 'bad' players in Grandmaster from "cheesing" (I prefer the word rushing) tells me that either the ladder is poorly designed or they are a legitimate strategy for achieving victory.
If you are losing to aggressive openings or rushes (I don't like the word cheese) even if you're a grandmaster(!) maybe you should take a look at your builds or work on your micro more.
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I played a T who had walled me all, and basically completely sieged me up on Xelnaga. Unfortunately for him, I had my drone scout, which I ninja expanded with.....then expanded again. 15 minutes later he's mined out of his main, I'm lol'ing harcore, as he's so confident he's got me. He has about 10 loaded bunkers, backup bunkers behind those, siege tanks, missile turrets surrounding my base, etc. When I rofl-cruised into his main with about 150 ling/bling from my other two bases I think he crapped out several bricks. I love the feeling of knowing you have the upper hand, even though your opponent "KNOWS" he is winning.
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When I get pylon/cannon rushed when I'm 15 hatching as zerg, I like to take their natural with a hatchery. It forces them to pull probes or make a cannon to reach it xD And puts their expand super behind. If they want to block your expand, block theirs back! :D
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I was think later about if it could be considered cheese. I thought it could only be considered cheese if you also include the Terran 1/1/1 build and any spawning pools Zerg players make before their first overlord. I think it's more on the lines of a proxy stargate, factory, or starport. (Which I don't consider cheese)
Yeah, don't give in to the haters that feel a sense of moral superiority for not cheesing. There is eco cheese and there is aggressive cheese; sadly, only the latter is called cheese because the former is "How you play the game!" A well versed player should be equally prepared to win in the early game as in the mid and lategame. If an attack at 6 minutes kills the opponent, hooray ~ you didn't waste time waiting to kill him later! As I learned from playing KR ladder (or rather, reaffirmed since I learned during a prev RTS game this), you EARN the right to have LONG, HARD FOUGHT GAMES by denying attempts at early aggression swiftly and handily.
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On November 11 2011 12:25 Spessi wrote:
Personally, it really annoys me (not saying you're doing it) when people call things cheese that aren't remotely cheesing.
Generally it happens whenever you scout early, see a FE, and go, "okay, i have three choices. I can either FE with them and stay on par in economy and macro; I can keep doing whatever I was going to do anyway; or...I can go pressure him and either severely cripple him or just kill him.
Yeah agreed. It's always amusing when someone does a very greedy build and you respond with some high aggression/all-in and kill it and get told you cheesed.
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Reacting to your opponent's strategy is NEVER cheese.
Cheese, in my opinion, is a strategy that is executed blindly against an opponent (typically in the earlygame) with intent to end the game immidiately which usually fails if scouted. In this case, the key word is "blindly."
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EPT
