The senseless, endless arguing that goes on in both BW and SC2 forums is just plain ridiculous. Aren't you people sick of it already? Many are bashing on each other without having given either games much of a chance. If you've never watched or played it much, try it. BW fans, try watching some SC2 games that are recommended. Despite its interface and some visually and audibly less-pleasing experience in my opinion, there have been several games that I felt were rather remarkable and entertaining. Don't hate it without even trying to understand the game.
Likewise, for SC2 fans, please do not step all over the BW fans. Every few days, there are reports and news that aren't very good for the BW scene, like BW pros playing SC2 and possible switches, etc. We are afraid. We don't want to see our BW scene get slowly forced out of our grasp. And there you go, rubbing salt on the wound, making rude and thoughtless comments like "I hope BW scene dies for the sake of ESPORTS!" No, that's not something a true ESPORTS fan would say. That's something an immature, selfish person would say. Please, think twice before posting. That act alone can save a lot of trouble for banlings and mods, as well as ease the tension between the two communities.
If you still dislike the game, then keep it to yourself. But if you want to comment on why you dislike the game, do so with respect. Don't go screaming "lol MBS is just shit" or "bw has shitty graphics, it should just die". Be rational, thoughtful and most importantly, respectful. Give proper reasons, not "it's bad because it's bad and it's bad because fifty thousand other people say so". It's really saddening to see that it has gotten to the point where people are telling each other how to post and how to be respectful towards each other. TeamLiquid was never such a community. Discussions were actually thoughtful and progressed somewhere. Now it's no different from any other website. I had and still do have high regards for TeamLiquid, and its position as the #1 ESPORTS website that the world has to offer. But this cannot be done by just moderators' and banlings' efforts alone. Before SC2, most moderation was self-done. People knew what to say and not to say, people knew where the boundaries were. But now, it has to be pointed out in every sensitive threads. With the influx of SC2 fans, it was inevitable, but surely, we all have some general consensus with regards to morals and e-social etiquette?
I still believe TL.net can continue to be the website that all ESPORTS fans will recognise and hold with high regards. But it requires the effort and mutual respect by both communities, and I believe this is possible. Look at some of the BW threads lately. They're about SC2 fans wanting to know more about what makes BW so great and the best RTS game ever (this is subject to my own opinion, please don't discuss this here). And just look at the responses. Every single one has been informative and welcoming, posts made by helpful and passionate fans, old and new alike. SC2 fans, BW fans don't hate you. In fact, we welcome you so that we can share our passion with you. We really don't mean any harm, irregardless of how we may think about BW and/or SC2. But think about it, if we started insulting SC2, the scene and its community, won't you get mad and offended? Put yourself in our shoes.
The SC2 community is great as well. I made a few questions in LR threads and streams because I don't keep that up to date with the latest patches, changes, metagame evolution and such (yes, I used the M word!!!!!), but people have helped me with equal passion and enthusiasm as BW fans. I thank you all for that, on behalf of other SC2 "noob" fans.
See, we're not that much different, actually. I may like macaroni, you may like spaghetti, but in the end, it's all pasta. Why can't we just appreciate the fact that we're pasta fans, not elitist, individualistic, self-centered and rude people who hates everything that doesn't revolve around their own taste and preference? Both communities are really just great, so why not appreciate each other and share our passion?
I still believe that one day, we'll all be able to call ourselves not a "SC2 fan" or a "BW fan", but an "ESPORTS fan".
Many people in Korea didn't or hardly watched football before this. In 2002, they all came together, old and new fans, hardcore or not, irregardless of whether they lived in the country or overseas. One day, we will be like this.
On November 01 2011 00:12 BadWithNames wrote: Dude....I f-ing love pasta.
fk you. Noodles (Pasta 2.0) are way better than Pasta. You can do so much more with them and they require a lot more skill to make and it's just way better to eat.
THANK YOU very MUCH, there's so many stupid threads that just bait people into pointless arguing with each other over stupid nonsense. It really is just arguing to no end; what are we going to gain from two fans of two games arguing about the merits of their games?
Is one of the going to go away from the argument with a changed opinion or mindset? No. Why can't people just be friends and not be assholes just because it's the internet
I would love for the fighting to stop but everyday it seems to get worse....sigh..
Look at some of the BW threads lately. They're about SC2 fans wanting to know more about what makes BW so great and the best RTS game ever (this is subject to my own opinion, please don't discuss this here). And just look at the responses. Every single one has been informative and welcoming, posts made by helpful and passionate fans, old and new alike.
5/5 Good blog, although I don't think there is any harm in an honest discussion of the merits of BW vs SC2, its depressing to see how often it devolves into a flame war, rather than discussion
Dude fuck you. Spaghettis are in all points superior to Macaronis, just because macaronis are new and have cool cylindric design doesnt mean it's better.
Macaronis are just some kind of newbie friendly pasta designed for people who lack the mechanical skill to eat spaghetti, but their design is flawed and Macaronis wont surpass Spaghettis ever because of it.
I agree with a lot of things you said, but one of my core belief is that all opinions are not equals. 5/5 though, <3 Konadora. Edit : and i don't believe in "esports" too :/
I agree with the point you're making (I made it in the Website Feedback section a few weeks ago as well), but it's kind of disingenuous to post a blog guaranteed to bring out the SC2 vs. BW arguments and then come back and post something saying people shouldn't hate 2 days later.
I like pasta. Fried Spaghetti is like the best bad thing for you ever.
I completely agree with you here, the fighting is just so annyoing. The pasta vs macaroni joke above just sums up everything about the true nature of the squable.
HoN and LoL are so similar to SC2 and BW. The incessent bitching and moaning and refusal to just accept that the two games are seperate and both have nearly infinite skill-ceilings.
Ahem, back to topic :D I don't want BW to die and/or SC2 to die, but it seems like BW is only going to last a year T.T, I really want to be able to enjoy watching Korean BW whenever i'm sick and tired of SC2, and also enjoy constant ramblings of korean commentators ( i dont even know what the heck they say half the time), but BW has a certain kind of magic that SC2 seems to be missing.
Plz dont die BW T.T i know you're in the worst state since the ESTRO and Lecaf disbandings but....... T.T I want BW to live as long as it can, and once it comes time that it finally dies, i will weep ESPORTS tears and then continue playing SC2.
On November 01 2011 00:31 corumjhaelen wrote: I agree with a lot of things you said, but one of my core belief is that all opinions are not equals. 5/5 though, <3 Konadora.
I agree with this, that although opinions are subjective, their validity is not.
But yes, all this pointless fighting really is getting out of control.
Man watching that 2002 video bring me back memories.
I was only 10 years old. Other people were probably middle school~college kids when I was watching the game at the city hall on the giant screen, including few adults. Usually, people really don't talk to strangers in Korea unless they find that they have something in common; because there are lots of weird people out there.
But the night of Korea vs Italy. (Controversy aside) After Korea won, everyone flooded out to the streets. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM was chanting 'DAE HAN MIN GOOK'. The bus driver, who was on his duty, didn't get to see the game but was listening to the radio the hole time. Whenever he saw soccer fans, he would honk to the beat of 'Dae han min gook'. Oh, also this wasn't at Seoul; it was at nearby city called Ilsan (famous now for having MBC DreamCenter, but they didn't have MBC back in 2002).
Can TL really show unification, just like the Red Devils? Only time will tell.
I think the more involved I am with TL, the more I see the dark side of it and the parts that I hate and that make me feel sick. The further away from it, the more I'm able to see the good things and the utility of it and the things that make me want to contribute. It's weird. It's not even as if it's a new feeling, it's always been that way.
I hope when proleague and everything starts up, I'll be able to see the good in TL again.
On November 01 2011 00:16 hacklebeast wrote: Does this extend to lol or cod? Or is esports only starcraft?
ALL games
after all, we're all just nerds and fanboys on the inside!
well to me korean bw pro gaming holds the kind of place greek mythology does
Well then the SC2 Gods are the Romans. There are some direct knock-offs (Boxer, NaDa, July, etc) and then there are the fresh faces. Some are borrowed from completely other cultures (ThorZain, Naniwa) and some just kinda channel the old Greek spirit (MC, NesTea). Perhaps not entirely original, but there's room for both
On November 01 2011 00:33 bonifaceviii wrote: Pinkie Pie is best pony.
Fluttershy is indefinitely superior to Pinkie Pie.
@ op
I understand that you're writing this blog mostly out of frustration over an attitude in the TL community. Trust me though, it's not going to change anything. I can't imagine anyone reading this and going "Holy crap you're right! I hope BroodWar lives!". That being said, Fluttershy > Pinkie Pie.
I agree that BW/SC2 fans need to stop arguing. Honestly, it's childish and most times over a lack of knowledge about the other game. I can't say that I'm very involved in SC2 (as a BW fan), but I do get some enjoyment out of it. I feel that both sides should just try the other game and then try to argue. =_=
just want to link to the thread referred to (sc2 fan asking bw community) as it's a really good thread
I think most people already try to follow this sentiment from OP. TL has too large of a community to avoid some problems, but it can be improved and I think there are some signs of improvement. Though I have one pet peeve that I hope can be ended as well; don't want to disrupt the thread with it too much: + Show Spoiler +
(to sc2)--please never use some equivalent variation of the phrase "I hope X finally switches! " I know a lot of the time it's just excitement, and usually isn't trying to be malicious towards sc:bw, but it is directly saying how someone is waiting for bw to die in some form. BW pros aren't just sitting around; it is still their passion, still their dream, to play the game and win championships. They'll switch if they feel the time is right; don't act as if they "finally" did something.
Outright trolls will outright troll "bw is dead", etc, but even people who are new to esports and are just starting out with sc2 should respect that the sc:bw scene is still as passionate and alive as ever (these types of statements have occured for the past year, before the current problems that sc:bw is exhibiting showed up).
it's just a nitpicky thing, but I absolutely hate it.
Props to Imjorman who actually is trying to understand the both games.(willingly) Everyone else should consider the same or then at least act respectfully towards other games and their fans. Doesn't matter if you are a SC2 fan or Broodwar fan.
I may be a minority opinion here, but I do enjoy some of the SC2 vs BW threads. Maybe it's because I'm a bit combative in personality. Having watch both games alot (I started BW since the Boxer-days), I personally feel that SC2 is a superior game. However, I do argue it in a respectful manner and will not hesitate calling out BW-elitism.
I think the only thing that stings the threads is when people get taken out of context. Half of my posts in SC2 vs BW threads is pointing out that people just completely misinterpreted each other and are arguing things that one side or another didn't even say.
If you take out the ignorance and add in people who legitimately want to argue actual game design or whatever, I think that it's progressive in a lot of ways.
On November 01 2011 00:16 hacklebeast wrote: Does this extend to lol or cod? Or is esports only starcraft?
ALL games
after all, we're all just nerds and fanboys on the inside!
well to me korean bw pro gaming holds the kind of place greek mythology does
Well then the SC2 Gods are the Romans. There are some direct knock-offs (Boxer, NaDa, July, etc) and then there are the fresh faces. Some are borrowed from completely other cultures (ThorZain, Naniwa) and some just kinda channel the old Greek spirit (MC, NesTea). Perhaps not entirely original, but there's room for both
oh i watch more sc2 than sc1 but what you say sounds actually pretty right
I don't know if it's going to happen. I, for one, am just so embittered.
Two straight years of having to endure the words dying, inevitable, and transition; of neophytes crowing about Starcraft and "ESPORTS" while simultaneously hoping to cannibalize our scene, our players, our sponsors; of lawsuits hanging over us like the sword of Damocles; of Blizzard answering our elated anticipation of a sequel to The Matrix with Reloaded, and then constantly reading about how much better the special effects are; of being slowly marginalized here on TL and even having the Power Rank de-marginalized from the sidebar; of terrible, terrible damn ugh Dustin Browder dooming the design direction of the franchise; of watching every GSL final and leaving disappointed.
It's a lot to take, man. It wears on you, and some people just get tired. I wish I could let it all slide and just take it for what it is, I do--but I don't know how. Listen, Kona, if you ever see a SC2 game that warms the cockles of your heart just like one from BW, maybe you could PM me about it. And then who knows, maybe I could love again.
On November 01 2011 00:10 konadora wrote: See, we're not that much different, actually. I may like macaroni, you may like spaghetti, but in the end, it's all pasta.
not really.
if BW dies, i'm not going to watch SC2 as a replacement. i can find something else to entertain me. i might just eat a hamburger instead of eating of eating spaghetti.
imo there's nothing wrong with the fighting. let people get passionate and crazy mad fighting over differences. arguing over the internet never has as big an impact as people like to think. it's fun. it's fun to debate. it's fun to watch two extreme sides get at each other since it's all on the board.
i assume that none of the BW vs SC2 fighting has spilled over into live events, and that's because it's not really an issue worth fighting about in real life; it's only fun online.
when BW fans start hacking SC2 b.net servers to crash during GSL finals, then it crosses the line. but right now? it's like watching two opposing sports teams's fans go at it.
Everyone plzzzz. Konadora was trying to make a point about pasta. And you guys make it into a SC2 vs BW thing again. Some people just dont get it man, lets get back on track.
As somebody who likes to watch both BW and SC2 (and loves both equally), I find it sickening to see how the whole scene seems to rip itself apart just over the topic of "which do you think is better". For some reasons, those threads are popping up faster and faster, and every SC2/BW discussion (no matter how peaceful it started) ineviteably turns into a flamefest. And the worst thing is that people who are new to the scene can get the impression that the BW and SC2 fans are some sort of arch enemies ._.
Recently, I've had a gigantic drop in my posting rate. I've just been tired of how 'normal' TL has gotten in terms of its userbase. Most threads aren't worth reading, but I still read them. I think about what I might be able to contribute after reading a few pages of comments, and then I close that tab and sigh.
I think the whole shitfest of what is now on TL has gotten into the bw/sc2 arguments. I for one don't play bw, but I can still sit down and enjoy watching a match if its decent. The thing with not-so-decent sc2 matches that I like are all the pretty colors, whereas I don't see many pretty colors in non-decent bw matches.
I think that bw will fade away as time goes on, but so will sc2 after a while. Everything has its time, and I don't think things should be rushed in this case. I also think that part of the whole issue about bw/sc2 shitfests are that the bw fans feel a bit threatened by the sc2 audience. They don't want their esport to be eclipsed by another game, kind of like that Seinfeld episode where Costanza has the Frogger hi-score and wants to do everything he can to preserve it, even if it means attaching a car battery to the damn machine and trying to wheel it across an open road. The fans of bw(Costanza) are what is keeping bw(frogger hiscore) alive, as far as I can tell. But there's no reason bw and sc2 fans should hate each other. We should all be a happy family. A family of elitist forum-goers who play very similar games and congregate in the same place on the internet.
I totally disagree, you are 100% wrong. Nothing you said makes sense. This blog entry doesn't deserve to be on the front page, and it doesn't deserve 5 stars.
Hopefully your message will reach to the masses and ease the moderators' job in the future.
I haven't really argued on the merits of either game yet, but I would think that a lot of the BW bitterness towards SC2 is similar to the frustration I feel towards that game.
I love BW. I used to watch almost 100% of the matches, and when KT or Flash did poorly, that would effect my mood for days, possibly weeks. Hell, I am still bitter about the power outage. I dislike SC2 because I feel like it has forced me to watch it.
The entire foreign BW community disappeared when SC2 came out. I used to love watching Idra, Nony, BratOK, Ret, etc. play in foreign tournaments. I used to love listening to Tasteless and Superdanielman commentate GomTV, and I used to love watching the old Day9 dailies. Now, if I want to keep following the personalities I like, I have to watch a game I don't, so I am now relegated to watching a game that is on at 4:00am, and which none of my friends play anymore.
All of my friends immediately jumped from BW to SC2, and when I used to play 1 or 2 hours of BW with them a day, now I have to play SC2, which I just don't enjoy as much. It isn't that I dislike the game, but it really doesn't feel the same. There is no army retention, everything just dies, there are no 'safe builds' because cheese is 10x stronger, and being a high APM macro player, I feel like my skills are just not being utilized as they were.
So I don't hate SC2, I just miss BW. I don't hate the SC2 community, I miss the old BW community. Watching a game that was an absolute masterpiece, that has taken me years to be able to watch and properly understand, to see it slowly become irrelevant and marginalized is not pleasant.
Edit: I guess to make this relevant to the topic. I too prefer macaroni, but it seems most people now prefer spaghetti, and macaroni keeps getting bumped off of the menu.
On November 01 2011 02:57 GreenManalishi wrote: I haven't really argued on the merits of either game yet, but I would think that a lot of the BW bitterness towards SC2 is similar to the frustration I feel towards that game.
I love BW. I used to watch almost 100% of the matches, and when KT or Flash did poorly, that would effect my mood for days, possibly weeks. Hell, I am still bitter about the power outage. I dislike SC2 because I feel like it has forced me to watch it.
The entire foreign BW community disappeared when SC2 came out. I used to love watching Idra, Nony, BratOK, Ret, etc. play in foreign tournaments. I used to love listening to Tasteless and Superdanielman commentate GomTV, and I used to love watching the old Day9 dailies. Now, if I want to keep following the personalities I like, I have to watch a game I don't, so I am now relegated to watching a game that is on at 4:00am, and which none of my friends play anymore.
All of my friends immediately jumped from BW to SC2, and when I used to play 1 or 2 hours of BW with them a day, now I have to play SC2, which I just don't enjoy as much. It isn't that I dislike the game, but it really doesn't feel the same. There is no army retention, everything just dies, there are no 'safe builds' because cheese is 10x stronger, and being a high APM macro player, I feel like my skills are just not being utilized as they were.
So I don't hate SC2, I just miss BW. I don't hate the SC2 community, I miss the old BW community. Watching a game that was an absolute masterpiece, that has taken me years to be able to watch and properly understand, to see it slowly become irrelevant and marginalized is not pleasant.
No, you stop it and stop it right now. Your post made me sad bro, really sad.
Amen brother! Both BW and SC2 have incredibly driven fans but if there's any community that I think could come together as one, its Starcraft. I'm not exaggerating when I say that the Starcraft community is the greatest community on earth.
I like War3. It's the best RTS in the world, and it makes BW and SC2 look like shallow puddles in comparison.
...
...
Joking. Make love, not war! And TL is already so much better than the SK forums, rofl. Back in the day, I think every other thread was like a huge argument about whether the best player in War3 was Moon and Grubby. Got old so fucking fast, man. Kind of like SC2 vs. BW.
I'll just post something I said on another thread: I'm not saying that BW is a better game than SC2 or CoD or anything like that. Every game has it fans, both hardcore and casual. But it's wrong for a SC2 fan to tell a BW fan that "BW is dead", or "stop living in the past", or "bad graphics, bad unit pathing", whatever it may be. It's just as wrong for a BW fan to say to a SC2 fan that they are "noobs" or like the "shiny new toy" or that they "just don't understand". The trouble comes from SC2 hogging the spotlight most of the time, which leads to SC2 fans pushing their views on BW fans, and BW fans reacting by acting stuck up. These two games can coexist, only Blizzard wants to phase out BW
No! NOOOO! *smashes glass* I will not sacrifice Team Liquid. We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats. They invade our site, we fall back. They assimilate entire proteams, and we fall back. Not again, the line must be drawn here! This far, no farther! I... will... make them play(broodwar) for what they've done.
So very true. I mostly play sc2 because bw is too hard for me and i have awful mechanics and too little free time, but bw is actually amazing. I have watched a few osl and proleague matches, regularly tune into sayle's stream, and it's really a great game.
Sadly, most people bashing it have never bothered to even look at a bw game, they just do it because they are idiots. I challenge anyone to watch jangbi vs fantasy (i know, im a scrub for not knowing better games >.<) and not getting excited as fuck, wether or not you prefer shinier graphics.
From a very old school RTS player, BW vs. SC2 reminds me of the old Warcraft2 vs SC debates. Having played warcraft2 at a high level, there were things about SC that frustrated me. Warcraft2 had three resources to manage (gold, wood, oil), same tech paths for each race, three unit types (land, air, sea), multiple resource options to start with (low, medium, and high), midgame casters differed and late game casters differed as well.
There were no rally points, no queued units, no control groups and maps could be wide open and still be balanced for both orcs or humans.
SC chose to go a completely different route as far as the strategy part of the game went. Early in Beta, balance was a mess. If it wasn't for the allure of B.Net integrating a ladder system into the game (war2 required you to report matches to a 3rd party website) and the hacking of war2 that was going on at that moment in time, most of the top war2 players would not have left to play SC. With the exception of a few of the early pros (Tillerman, Agent911, etc...) that stuck with SC due to the PGL using SC as the RTS of choice to try and catapult the esports scene to where it is today, most of the top war2 players left SC to go back to war2 simply because it lacked the elements of strategy and "skill" we were used to. We were able to go back to playing war2 because the hackers eventually turned to messing with SC shortly after its release.
SC killed war2. It was never the same after SC was released. Sure, we had fun playing it for the first year SC was around, but drifting support from websites that were catering to the SC crowd, cool graphics and a more user-friendly interface from SC resulted in one of two fates for war2 players: Find a new game to play or give in to SC. War2 fought death up until the release of BW, where even though Blizzard released a B.net version in an attempt to garner a few more $$$ out of the dying game, it still was not enough to extend its life-cycle. Those who did not play SC longed for War3 to come out so they could relive the battles of Orcs vs. Humans.
That dream was crushed when War3 was released as they eliminated key aspects of what made war2 as great as it was - Heroes added an element that placed too much power in a battle in the hands of a single unit. I see that same mistake being made to a lesser degree with SC2 (colossus, infestors, ghosts just some examples depending on matchups); the removal of naval battles was more blasphemous to war2 players than the omission of lurkers and the prevalence of maxed out deathball armies in SC2 is to BW players.
I gave War3 a chance and it just didn't do anything for me as a former war2 player. I know people that never played war2 and think war3 is the best RTS ever. I can respect that opinion because they look at the game through a different paradigm. I guess I can look at SC2 in the same way because I never really got that involved in BW.
SC2 is a lot of fun for me. It still does not give me the same experience that war2 did. Nothing will strike fear in your heart more than hearing bloodlust being cast on a group of ogres outside your expansion. Nothing was more fun than polymorphing an entire group of bloodlusted ogres before they could hit your base. And nothing was more hilarious than sending hasted, invisible peons to mine out your opponents expansion without him knowing.
With that said, I can completely understand where BW players are coming from right now. Blizzard has done the same thing to BW that it did to War2. The sequel people hoped would build on BW's success is instead a very different game with a simpler user-interface, a different feel to battles and balance in general, and an appeal to the less-skilled (or shall we say casual) gamer. As the money shifts to SC2, the players will either move to SC2 or start searching for a different game if there is no more money to keep the BW esports scene alive. My advice to BW players: keep your game alive as long as you can because once it's dead, nothing ever rarely fills the void that is left. Sure, you'll find games to have fun with, but it will never be as epic as BW was for you.
With all that said, I have been watching some BW lately because I completely skipped that part of the series due to my frustration with SC1 being so different from war2. I've been curious what makes BW and SC2 so different in the same way war2 and war3 were. I'm sure after watching hours of matches I'll eventually figure it out, but with as little time as I have to dedicate to gaming these days, it'd be nice to have a well-thought-out and unbiased comparison of the two games as to the good and bad in both of them. Too bad it is way too difficult to get some answers to the questions I have regarding BW because I have to wade through pages of a bunch of monkeys flinging poo at each other. It's a shame because I think I've seen more interest from Blizzard (even though they may fail to get it right more often than not and may take forever in getting to the obvious fix) in balancing the game based on professional influence than with any other game.
On November 01 2011 05:36 silverhand wrote: From a very old school RTS player, BW vs. SC2 reminds me of the old Warcraft2 vs SC debates. Having played warcraft2 at a high level, there were things about SC that frustrated me. Warcraft2 had three resources to manage (gold, wood, oil), same tech paths for each race, three unit types (land, air, sea), multiple resource options to start with (low, medium, and high), midgame casters differed and late game casters differed as well.
There were no rally points, no queued units, no control groups and maps could be wide open and still be balanced for both orcs or humans.
SC chose to go a completely different route as far as the strategy part of the game went. Early in Beta, balance was a mess. If it wasn't for the allure of B.Net integrating a ladder system into the game (war2 required you to report matches to a 3rd party website) and the hacking of war2 that was going on at that moment in time, most of the top war2 players would not have left to play SC. With the exception of a few of the early pros (Tillerman, Agent911, etc...) that stuck with SC due to the PGL using SC as the RTS of choice to try and catapult the esports scene to where it is today, most of the top war2 players left SC to go back to war2 simply because it lacked the elements of strategy and "skill" we were used to. We were able to go back to playing war2 because the hackers eventually turned to messing with SC shortly after its release.
SC killed war2. It was never the same after SC was released. Sure, we had fun playing it for the first year SC was around, but drifting support from websites that were catering to the SC crowd, cool graphics and a more user-friendly interface from SC resulted in one of two fates for war2 players: Find a new game to play or give in to SC. War2 fought death up until the release of BW, where even though Blizzard released a B.net version in an attempt to garner a few more $$$ out of the dying game, it still was not enough to extend its life-cycle. Those who did not play SC longed for War3 to come out so they could relive the battles of Orcs vs. Humans.
That dream was crushed when War3 was released as they eliminated key aspects of what made war2 as great as it was - Heroes added an element that placed too much power in a battle in the hands of a single unit. I see that same mistake being made to a lesser degree with SC2 (colossus, infestors, ghosts just some examples depending on matchups); the removal of naval battles was more blasphemous to war2 players than the omission of lurkers and the prevalence of maxed out deathball armies in SC2 is to BW players.
I gave War3 a chance and it just didn't do anything for me as a former war2 player. I know people that never played war2 and think war3 is the best RTS ever. I can respect that opinion because they look at the game through a different paradigm. I guess I can look at SC2 in the same way because I never really got that involved in BW.
SC2 is a lot of fun for me. It still does not give me the same experience that war2 did. Nothing will strike fear in your heart more than hearing bloodlust being cast on a group of ogres outside your expansion. Nothing was more fun than polymorphing an entire group of bloodlusted ogres before they could hit your base. And nothing was more hilarious than sending hasted, invisible peons to mine out your opponents expansion without him knowing.
With that said, I can completely understand where BW players are coming from right now. Blizzard has done the same thing to BW that it did to War2. The sequel people hoped would build on BW's success is instead a very different game with a simpler user-interface, a different feel to battles and balance in general, and an appeal to the less-skilled (or shall we say casual) gamer. As the money shifts to SC2, the players will either move to SC2 or start searching for a different game if there is no more money to keep the BW esports scene alive. My advice to BW players: keep your game alive as long as you can because once it's dead, nothing ever rarely fills the void that is left. Sure, you'll find games to have fun with, but it will never be as epic as BW was for you.
With all that said, I have been watching some BW lately because I completely skipped that part of the series due to my frustration with SC1 being so different from war2. I've been curious what makes BW and SC2 so different in the same way war2 and war3 were. I'm sure after watching hours of matches I'll eventually figure it out, but with as little time as I have to dedicate to gaming these days, it'd be nice to have a well-thought-out and unbiased comparison of the two games as to the good and bad in both of them. Too bad it is way too difficult to get some answers to the questions I have regarding BW because I have to wade through pages of a bunch of monkeys flinging poo at each other. It's a shame because I think I've seen more interest from Blizzard (even though they may fail to get it right more often than not and may take forever in getting to the obvious fix) in balancing the game based on professional influence than with any other game.
Here It's not really a comparison of the two but rather just a small compendium of what makes BW BW to us fans. I'm sure you can find many threads on TL of what makes SC2 great to its fans.
On November 01 2011 02:20 kainzero wrote: when BW fans start hacking SC2 b.net servers to crash during GSL finals, then it crosses the line. but right now? it's like watching two opposing sports teams's fans go at it.
You know that just might be what needs to be done to convince blizzard to add LAN. I'm just saying
On November 01 2011 00:10 konadora wrote: Before SC2, most moderation was self-done. People knew what to say and not to say, people knew where the boundaries were. But now, it has to be pointed out in every sensitive threads. With the influx of SC2 fans, it was inevitable, but surely, we all have some general consensus with regards to morals and e-social etiquette?
I think it will get better when PL starts and we can have some threads about whats going on in the BW scene, rather than the dooms day threads about how SC2 is absorbing anything that is related to BW.
On November 01 2011 02:35 mbr2321 wrote: timely. intelligent. well written (except "irregardless" is not a word)
I am glad to see someone trying to focus on the positives that the games bring to each other. It is always the case that people see differences far more than similarities.
I would just like to re-emphasis that irregardless is most definitely not a word
From a very old school RTS player, BW vs. SC2 reminds me of the old Warcraft2 vs SC debates. Having played warcraft2 at a high level, there were things about SC that frustrated me. Warcraft2 had three resources to manage (gold, wood, oil), same tech paths for each race, three unit types (land, air, sea), multiple resource options to start with (low, medium, and high), midgame casters differed and late game casters differed as well.
There were no rally points, no queued units, no control groups and maps could be wide open and still be balanced for both orcs or humans.
SC chose to go a completely different route as far as the strategy part of the game went. Early in Beta, balance was a mess. If it wasn't for the allure of B.Net integrating a ladder system into the game (war2 required you to report matches to a 3rd party website) and the hacking of war2 that was going on at that moment in time, most of the top war2 players would not have left to play SC. With the exception of a few of the early pros (Tillerman, Agent911, etc...) that stuck with SC due to the PGL using SC as the RTS of choice to try and catapult the esports scene to where it is today, most of the top war2 players left SC to go back to war2 simply because it lacked the elements of strategy and "skill" we were used to. We were able to go back to playing war2 because the hackers eventually turned to messing with SC shortly after its release.
SC killed war2. It was never the same after SC was released. Sure, we had fun playing it for the first year SC was around, but drifting support from websites that were catering to the SC crowd, cool graphics and a more user-friendly interface from SC resulted in one of two fates for war2 players: Find a new game to play or give in to SC. War2 fought death up until the release of BW, where even though Blizzard released a B.net version in an attempt to garner a few more $$$ out of the dying game, it still was not enough to extend its life-cycle. Those who did not play SC longed for War3 to come out so they could relive the battles of Orcs vs. Humans.
That dream was crushed when War3 was released as they eliminated key aspects of what made war2 as great as it was - Heroes added an element that placed too much power in a battle in the hands of a single unit. I see that same mistake being made to a lesser degree with SC2 (colossus, infestors, ghosts just some examples depending on matchups); the removal of naval battles was more blasphemous to war2 players than the omission of lurkers and the prevalence of maxed out deathball armies in SC2 is to BW players.
I gave War3 a chance and it just didn't do anything for me as a former war2 player. I know people that never played war2 and think war3 is the best RTS ever. I can respect that opinion because they look at the game through a different paradigm. I guess I can look at SC2 in the same way because I never really got that involved in BW.
SC2 is a lot of fun for me. It still does not give me the same experience that war2 did. Nothing will strike fear in your heart more than hearing bloodlust being cast on a group of ogres outside your expansion. Nothing was more fun than polymorphing an entire group of bloodlusted ogres before they could hit your base. And nothing was more hilarious than sending hasted, invisible peons to mine out your opponents expansion without him knowing.
With that said, I can completely understand where BW players are coming from right now. Blizzard has done the same thing to BW that it did to War2. The sequel people hoped would build on BW's success is instead a very different game with a simpler user-interface, a different feel to battles and balance in general, and an appeal to the less-skilled (or shall we say casual) gamer. As the money shifts to SC2, the players will either move to SC2 or start searching for a different game if there is no more money to keep the BW esports scene alive. My advice to BW players: keep your game alive as long as you can because once it's dead, nothing ever rarely fills the void that is left. Sure, you'll find games to have fun with, but it will never be as epic as BW was for you.
With all that said, I have been watching some BW lately because I completely skipped that part of the series due to my frustration with SC1 being so different from war2. I've been curious what makes BW and SC2 so different in the same way war2 and war3 were. I'm sure after watching hours of matches I'll eventually figure it out, but with as little time as I have to dedicate to gaming these days, it'd be nice to have a well-thought-out and unbiased comparison of the two games as to the good and bad in both of them. Too bad it is way too difficult to get some answers to the questions I have regarding BW because I have to wade through pages of a bunch of monkeys flinging poo at each other. It's a shame because I think I've seen more interest from Blizzard (even though they may fail to get it right more often than not and may take forever in getting to the obvious fix) in balancing the game based on professional influence than with any other game.
Wow, the ultimate RTS hipster. I didn't think it was possible.
At least now we know all of the BW users' complaints are invalid because SC killed War2 in the beginning as well rofl.
PS I fucking love macaroni and it's the best thing since sliced bread, what is up with all you spaghetti loving losers? That funk is too messy lol
Why don't we continue the sc2bw mod? I couldn't find the thread about it.
It would be cool if there are mods of both bw and warcraft 2 on sc2! It's just an idea, people could try to play a hardcore classic to challenge themselves, it's like having backward compatibility, keep a unified audience at the same time.
On November 01 2011 12:02 RavenLoud wrote: Hey guys not sure if this is off-topic.
Why don't we continue the sc2bw mod? I couldn't find the thread about it.
It would be cool if there are mods of both bw and warcraft 2 on sc2! It's just an idea, people could try to play a hardcore classic to challenge themselves, it's like having backward compatibility, keep a unified audience at the same time.
On November 01 2011 12:02 RavenLoud wrote: Hey guys not sure if this is off-topic.
Why don't we continue the sc2bw mod? I couldn't find the thread about it.
It would be cool if there are mods of both bw and warcraft 2 on sc2! It's just an idea, people could try to play a hardcore classic to challenge themselves, it's like having backward compatibility, keep a unified audience at the same time.
sc2bw isn't bw. The guy who made it did a good job but it's not possible to even get close to BW on the sc2 engine, it's just too different.
On November 01 2011 12:02 RavenLoud wrote: Hey guys not sure if this is off-topic.
Why don't we continue the sc2bw mod? I couldn't find the thread about it.
It would be cool if there are mods of both bw and warcraft 2 on sc2! It's just an idea, people could try to play a hardcore classic to challenge themselves, it's like having backward compatibility, keep a unified audience at the same time.
On November 01 2011 12:02 RavenLoud wrote: Hey guys not sure if this is off-topic.
Why don't we continue the sc2bw mod? I couldn't find the thread about it.
It would be cool if there are mods of both bw and warcraft 2 on sc2! It's just an idea, people could try to play a hardcore classic to challenge themselves, it's like having backward compatibility, keep a unified audience at the same time.
sc2bw isn't bw. The guy who made it did a good job but it's not possible to even get close to BW on the sc2 engine, it's just too different.
bu-but Blizzard said the engine could do anything!
Yeah I can see that, for example everything in BW is in a box shape while in SC2 it's in circles. However it can come pretty close, almost a remake.
This is an excellent blog, and I agree 100%. Basic manners and politeness in human interaction would go a loooooong way towards making TL a nicer, friendly place, whether you're debating whether BW is better than SC2, or just whether Kpop is better than Jpop. We're all in this together, all fans of ESPORTS, not warring factions fighting to the death for our own slice of virtual turf...and we better remember that.
As for me, I love BW, love SC2. My beef is with anyone who belittles the hard work, effort, and determination of the fans and players of ESPORTS, BW and SC2 alike, and wishes for their downfall and hurt.
EPT
Make love, not war! And TL is already so much better than the SK forums, rofl. Back in the day, I think every other thread was like a huge argument about whether the best player in War3 was Moon and Grubby. Got old so fucking fast, man. Kind of like SC2 vs. BW.
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