..And we're back! I hope the past contest winners have enjoyed their access to the beta! For those of you who have enjoyed the introductionary blogs, I have great news for you. I have teamed myself up with flamewheel and we'll be spitting out a lot of blogs about DotA 2 and everything that comes with it. I know flamewheel is working on a long and deep guide for Antimage and Windrunner. That is the kind of content we'll be throwing at you guys from time to time. It could also be a little different and not specifically about one hero and it's purpose in the game. Like this.
Introduction: What is a Support? In the previous blog we talked about what kind of roles there is within a lineup. This time around we'll focus on trying to pin down what you should be doing as a support and how you should go about doing that. Your most important task throughout the game is to assist your teammates and make sure their game is going the way you want it to go. The lineup you're in could be focused towards pushing or ganking which oftentimes mean that you want your wards placed kind of offensively, so you gain control over their side of the map. If your team is more defensive and wants to get into the lategame after farming heavily for a long time, you have to make sure that you have as much vision on the map as possible, so that the farmers in your lineup won't get ganked time after time and make all the farming go to waste. No matter what the overall team composition, as a support it is your job to do a few main things, as will be detailed below.
One of the great things about playing support is that your hero is often versatile. These are the heroes I consider support heroes in the current pool.
Taking a quick glance at this list, we quickly realize that most of the heroes deemed 'support' are Intelligence-based. Intelligence heroes are primarily spellcasters and their power generally lies within their abilities, be it through strong auras, healing, nuking, or crowd control. Remember though, it is very important to understand that just because I call these heroes support doesn't mean that they can't be effective in other lineups with a different purpose. DotA 2 is a game where almost anything is possible under the right circumstances.
More importantly, there are different levels of supporting. Before we move into the rest of this blog, I am going to take a bit of time to explain the 1-5 system. It's quite simple: the 1-5 system is an assessment of who gets priority in farming on your team. I'll demonstrate first with an example.
Your team consists of Anti-Mage, Priestess of the Moon (Mirana), Ancient Apparition, Vengeful Spirit, and Crystal Maiden. In the beginning of the game, there are three lanes to use, which means there are three potential farmers. So just on a whim let's assign Ancient Apparition to the middle lane, team Priestess of the Moon and Vengeful Spirit up on the top lane, and send Anti-Mage and Crystal Maiden to bottom lane.
As your primary carry, Anti-Mage is your team's 1. His objective is to farm most of the game to own it up later, and if there's open farm accessible to him give it to him. He gets top priority over for earning gold over other heroes. Throughout early and midgame he will focus on farming.
Priestess of the Moon is your team's 2. She is a semi-carry and sometimes ganker that can become strong with levels and items. She gets second priority in farming. She will farm extensively early game, and supplement her midgame farming with occasional ganks.
Ancient Apparition is a powerful spellcaster that becomes much stronger with items. He will act as the farmer in his lane for the beginning of the game, making him the 3. After a while, he will leave the lane to go primarily gank.
So early on, the two remaining heroes, Vengeful Spirit and Crystal Maiden, as the 4 and 5 will have virtually no farm. They are going to support their farmers by buying wards, roaming the map, and ganking.
The 1-5 ranking system is not set in stone; it is relative. All it does is tell you, based on the team composition, who is getting priority in farm. We may be tempted to say that "since Vengeful Spirit and Crystal Maiden aren't getting farm, they're the only supports". This is not necessarily true! Ancient Apparition is a support, just one that becomes a lot stronger with some items. In most cases though, your team's 4 and 5 will be supports, and 3 may be as well. 4 and 5 act as more purely support, buying couriers, wards, and roaming the map. If 3 is a support, then it's usually a farmer who will become a dominating midgame presence with early farm.
Items Items is one of the core features in the game. It's important that you understand all the items and the heroes, both the one you are playing, but also the ones surrounding you.
Starting Items It's crucially important to have wards and a courier when you enter the laning phase in any team. This is the reason why two or three heroes spend some of their starting gold on buying a courier, a set of wards and maybe even upgrading the courier to a flying courier right away.
When you bought either the first set of wards or the courier, you will have 433 gold left. That amount of gold will be sufficient of giving you a little bit of stats and a lot of regen (which is key to sustain your stay in the lane early on). Buy two branches (2x 53g), two clarities (2x 50g), one healing salve (1x 100 gold) and a set of tango's (1x 90 gold). This way you should be set up to have a strong and good laning phase.
Option 1 x2
Option 2 x2
If you're playing a hero such as Lich that has an integrated mana-regen, I'd skip the clarities and go for more health regen. In this case probably another set of tango's (1x 90g) or save the money for your first bigger item/flying courier. Note also that these two options are generally for hard support heroes like Vengeful Spirit.
Core Items As soon as you've earned your first 163g, you will be able to afford upgrading the courier into a flying courier. This is an asset that should not be undervalued by anybody. By the time you have enough gold to upgrade the courier, your mid-hero should be very close or already have enough to buy his bottle. Having his bottle as soon as possible is very crucial to his presence in his lane and if he will be able to go after the runes/sustain his stay in the lane by having infinite regen. All supports should do this without hesitating!
Next up there's a few different routes, you can go. It depends on what hero you play and what situation you're in. But you should either be looking to get your Magic Stick (200g) or your Boots of Speed (500g) next up. What's important in this decision is first of all that you need to able to maintain your wards. You need to constantly have 1-2 wards up in the early game for the mid-hero to be able to go for runes and your team is less likely to get ganked. Also it's important to think about what is the purpose of your item. Are you playing a support that is ganking a lot or will you be able to kill your opponents in the lane a lot more if you have boots? Do they have boots and in order to survive do you need them? Do they have a hero that uses his spells a lot, so you'll gain a lot of regen by having a Magic Stick? Try think of it rationally what you should go first and what you will benefit the most from. It will come naturally with experience. But I will say it one more time: Wards need to be kept up at all times.
Aside from what we've just talked about. It is alpha omega in any lineup to carry a tp around all the time, so you're able to either gank or help teammates that are getting ganked, or should a tower be pushed and you're out of position. It is needed! If you don't have it and the other team communicates properly, you will end up suffering a lot.
Items you will have to buy 1 time
Items you will have to buy continously
Luxury Items These items are ones that will be useful on almost any support hero, but as a general rule, there's no way wards, couriers, counterwarding, dust or the core support items should be given up to get these items.
But as we already talked about, there's a ranking of heroes. And the 3 in your team often times don't really ward, but will instead get these luxury items and support through those.
And you all wonder why I've put the upgraded boots down here and it can be a bit controversial, but this is guide for new people and not people who understand the game on a deep level. Everything is situational and in certain situations some things might be needed over other things, etc. but that is not our concern right now. I've put the upgraded boots under luxury items because I think wards and/or flying courier should not be compromised in order to get this. Standard Boots of Speed is sufficient for a really long time in a game. If I should make a comparison to a support player, I would say Nova from FnaticMSI in Heroes of Newerth. He's absolutely amazing. That guy never dies even though he doesn't have any items.
Heroes Now that we've been through on how to play support, it's time to divide the heroes into different categories; difficult and secondary roles.
Crystal Maiden Difficulty: Easy (“4” / “5”) Role: Babysitting Notes: Another one of those who need absolutely zero farm but the gold you earn every second. Ward bitch!
Dazzle Difficulty: Easy (“4” / “5”) Role: Babysitting Notes: One of the best babysitters in the game; invulnerability, slow and a heal. Just amazing. No need for items either - some mana regen is a great asset though.
Earthshaker Difficulty: Easy (“3” / “4”) Role: Supporting, Roaming, Initiating Notes: Not a hardcore babysitter, but won't farm in most lanes. Have lots of mobility (i.e. roaming potential) from the very beginning. Must get a Blink Dagger before it's too late.
Lich Difficulty: Easy (“3” / “4” / “5”) Role: Babysitting, Ganking Notes: Very versatile. Can act as a babysitter, but is also one of the best solo's in the game. Works very well with Meka and Pipe if solo'ed. Not compromising wards or anything though.
Lion Difficulty: Easy (“3” / “4” / “5”) Role: Babysitting, Ganking Notes: With two disabels and a big ass nuke, this is one of the strongest supporters and he doesn't really need any items. Dagger is an asset thought and he can go mid too.
Sven Difficulty: Easy (“3” / “4”) Role: Supporting, Roaming, Initiating Notes: Can definitely be played as a pubstomp hard carry, but in competative gaming it's used as a support hero. Very strong without any real items but treads. Blink Dagger is a big asset too.
Tidehunter Difficulty: Easy (“3” / “4”) Role: Supporting, Ganking, Initiating Notes: More of a stationary hero in the very early phase of the game, but as the game progresses and depending on how it plays out, he has a decent ganking potential. Blink Dagger is a huge asset for this hero too.
Vengeful Spirit Difficulty: Easy (“4” / “5”) Role: Babysitting, Ganking Notes: She's one of the most hardcore supporters in the game. You literally dont need any items and can just support all game. Good ganking potential with stun and minus armor.
Lina Difficulty: Medium (“3” / “4”) Role: Supporting, Pushing, Ganking Notes: A little bit controversial to call support. It can work as a babysitter, but is definitely a stronger mid hero.
Sand King Difficulty: Medium (“3” / “4”) Role: Supporting, Roaming, Initiating Notes: Not really a hardcore babysitter either, but has as strong lane presence as ES and a lot of roaming potential. Must get a Blink Dagger too.
Venomancer Difficulty: Medium (“3” / “4”) Role: Supporting, Pushing, Ganking Notes: Besides being quite decent at supporting, it's a very strong solo heroes with great pushing and tanking ability in the mid-game (yeah, tanking items are needed on this hero; Vanguard, Pipe).
Windrunner Difficulty: Medium (“3” / “4”) Role: Support, Ganking Notes: A good solo and has a lot of escape mechanisms. Ideal to play against a dual or trilane without suffering all too much.
Witch Doctor Difficulty: Medium Role: Babysitting, Ganking ("4" / "5") Notes: One of the a bit more tricky heroes to play and skill than the others. Has stun, heal and a DOT spell. Definitely a strong ganker and a great babysitter. Items are an asset, but not needed.
Ancient Apparition Difficulty: Hard (“3” / “4”) Role: Supporting, Ganking Notes: Powerfull spells and a great mid-game ganker.
Chen Difficulty: Hard (“3”) Role: Supporting, Pushing, Ganking Notes: Jungling. Gives him the capability to get great farm without taking anything from the others. Building great pushing/teamfight items early like Arcane Boots and Meka is very strong.
Enchantress Difficulty: Hard (“3”) Role: Supporting, Ganking, Pushing, DPS Note: Jungling. Has an easy way of supporting early game and assists a lane greatly. Gets great damage with her ultimate.
Enigma Difficulty: Hard (“3”) Role: Supporting, Ganking, Pushing, Initiating Notes: Another jungler. Dagger is a need and is a great, great hero with some decent farm. But don't take the farm of your carries. Can also solo.
Some of the heroes have multiple numbers assigned to the priority to farm. It depends on what lineup they're in and what function they'll have within the lineup..
Interested in getting access to the DotA2 beta?
Over the past few days, I've been giving away some keys on my Twitter. Now it's time to do some on TL too. Anyone who replies - and don't just reply "Nice." or something (if such a comment wins, I will rechoose it) - to this thread will have a shot of winning a key. At some point after the release of the blog, I will look at the number of comments and then choose 2 numbers and those 2 will get a beta key.
Hm. Yeah, ES might be kind of medium to play correctly, maybe even hard. But I think it's very easy to understand the concept and utilize him at first. I think all heroes are hard to master.
I don't see how you can give any heroes an 'easy' difficulty. They aren't easy at all to play correctly. Sure, while you aren't farming and shit on them, there are a TON of other things you need to do or pay attention to.
On October 31 2011 22:22 drmaul wrote: I don't see how you can give any heroes an 'easy' difficulty. They aren't easy at all to play correctly. Sure, while you aren't farming and shit on them, there are a TON of other things you need to do or pay attention to.
There always is many things to do and no hero is easy to master. However the concepts of some heroes and what you have to do is definitely easier than others.
So far I havent played any DotA or DotA2 in my life, but I have played HoN and LoL, and many of the heroes are the same basic principle.
Even though I usually play a carry (just 'cause it's fun n_n), the times I do either pick or and given a support hero, I take that role very seriously.
- Wards are game changers. Have wards up in key choke points whilst the enemy team does not can change the tides of a battle. - Knowing which spell to cast on who, and when. Even though not every support is the same, a well timed/placed Heal, Fissure, or AoE slow spell, can contribute to a kill or succesful push. - For me the most important thing that comes with playing support, is letting the carry (if laned with) get his farm. I've played with plenty of 'support' heroes that were only in it for their own benefit, and failed miserably at that.
Nice read Bumblebee, I think many newbs to any DotA game will learn much from your blogs.
ES is harder than enigma and everything in easy and medium IMO.
As for warding it's a good idea to look up a basic ward map because buying wards is only 1/3 of the job at best, you have to know where and when to place them.
Thanks for these write up. After the announce of DotA2 and seeing how big the community was for it,I started playing LoL thinking it would help me understand it since I figured they were all the same. God was I wrong. These'll be my saying grace. <3
Gosh, you're so nice, thanks so much! Hope I am lucky, been trying all your give-aways without much luck so far, but regardless, you're very kind with these contests and give-aways!
These are ridiculously helpful to a complete noob like me, who has little to no experience in these types of games. Kind of makes me want to give these a shot again. The community made me want to stop playing the first time around in HoN, but with guides like this it seems much easier to understand core concepts.
Nice writing, playing support can seem easy to some people but its really hard to play correct like making huge stuns with ES blocking others and not dying and setup ganks etc.
I think we've all waited more than long enough for Valve to give us the beta. This blog just makes me want it more and more! I also love supporting in this game, it's much more fun than simply healbotting all day. It's a ridiculously complex task, but this guides (and others like it) really help new players IMO.
Thanks Bumblebee, and GL to all in the beta key =)
On October 31 2011 22:29 Felo wrote: Stupid and short question - is the Omniknight not in the game anymore? He was my favourite Pub-supporter
DotA2 has not gotten all the DotA heroes implemented yet. That's why he's not in, but he will be! Also Jakiro just got added. I didn't add him to this blog though.
I think Veno and Enigma are definitely listed as harder than they are and I agree strongly that ES is listed way too easy. I understand that you're rating them by concept aswell as execution, but I think that's probably not the best idea if your target audience is new players.
I guess it's too late but I really don't want to sound negative because this is a really nice guide. I don't know if it's in the cards but a basic warding tutorial would really complement it well.
Good guide, I agree to most of what's said in it. I think you should put more emphasis on branches for support heroes though, branches are INCREDIBLE and are well worth getting at least 3 of on a support hero (imo), since you shouldnt be farming and are probably going to keep them for a while. They cost 53 gold and give +1 to all stats, and compare that to for example an ultimate orb which gives +10 to all stats and costs 2100 gold, this means branches are nearly 4 times as cost effective. They're called GG branches for a reason!
Also I'd add Puck as a support hero if I were you, he's not really an early game support, like, say, a CM, but he's more like an AA, who can (and probably should) solo a lane very well and turn the farm and XP into ganks, and then turn into a support a bit later on in the game.
On October 31 2011 22:35 Lachrymose wrote: I think Veno and Enigma are definitely listed as harder than they are and I agree strongly that ES is listed way too easy. I understand that you're rating them by concept aswell as execution, but I think that's probably not the best idea if your target audience is new players.
I guess it's too late but I really don't want to sound negative because this is a really nice guide. I don't know if it's in the cards but a basic warding tutorial would really complement it well.
I think you might be right. But I think that any hero who has to control minions and/or is jungling is extremely difficult for a new player. Also jungling is in general not too easy if you are new to the game.
And yes, I tried to explain it a bit short in another comment and yeah, you're kind of right. A great ES is extremely hard to play and has a significant role. But it's an easy concept and there's only 1 way to get to learn these heroes. I'm mostly trying to get people not to play the hard heroes where they don't understand their spells and/or doesn't know how to use them. That was kind of my focus point for the difficulties.
The guide is great, though I'm not sure if it's directed towards new players, as the support is one of the most complex playstyles in DotA. One more thing, I wouldn't really include WR in this guide. Oh, and one more thing pick me for beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetaaaa aaaaaaarrrrghh! ^_^
On October 31 2011 22:38 Canas wrote: Good guide, I agree to most of what's said in it. I think you should put more emphasis on branches for support heroes though, branches are INCREDIBLE and are well worth getting at least 3 of on a support hero (imo), since you shouldnt be farming and are probably going to keep them for a while. They cost 53 gold and give +1 to all stats, and compare that to for example an ultimate orb which gives +10 to all stats and costs 2100 gold, this means branches are nearly 4 times as cost effective. They're called GG branches for a reason!
Also I'd add Puck as a support hero if I were you, he's not really an early game support, like, say, a CM, but he's more like an AA, who can (and probably should) solo a lane very well and turn the farm and XP into ganks, and then turn into a support a bit later on in the game.
Umm, yeah. Puck can be played a bit as Windrunner, but I think Puck is mainly a "2", but also can be played as "3". I specifically chose to take out any "2" heroes from competative play because you can kind of play most heroes in a lot of ways.
Tidehunter is an extremely strong, farmed tank in pubs (maybe even in competative play, but not used that way). Sven is one of the sickest pubstomp carries, etc. etc.
Nice write-up, I agree with basicly everything but ES being on the easy roster, all though his basics are very simple there are a lot of ways to utilize his skills, can't wait to get my hands on the beta and play some earthshaker<3
I think the issue is with earthshaker is not how hard he is to understand, but he is one of those heroes whose mistakes can actually be harmful to your team and he also gets much stronger with a dagger. Definatelly harder than something like CM or Lich. He and Enigma could probally be on Medium.
You could also put the names of the recomended items somewhere, since not everyone knows the new icons. Some of fairly obvious, but others not as much. I think it's not already there, but isn't Jango also gotten by supports as a luxury item?
I really like the support role. I don't quite have the skill to play a hard carry and farm enough to carry my team to victory, but I can use my spells properly.
But i kinda disagree with VS being easy for new player. Relatively short range and extremely difficult ulti to use in proper game in my opinion. Swap in the wrong person ( the opponent tidehunter or es or veno) and you can cost your team the game.
I personally think "easy support" as a hero that can't sabotage your team even if played badly. Helps especially if the spells are easy to land. So probably ES does not fit easy support. A bad fissure can ruin your own team. Veno is probably easier than most support i feel.Just press ult in teamfight and your job is done.
But that's not the point i guess as this is just a general guidelines. Thanks for writing this.
Nice guide, though I'm not sure if I agree with the difficulties and roles you've assigned to each hero. The best advice I would give to a newbie in DotA would be: talk to your team. Usually you'll have at least one person who is experienced enough to give you solid advice. I'm not sure, if you've written it in an earlier guide, but communication is one of the most important things to winning the game.
Awesome guide for people just getting into the game. Hopefully these get more attention.
For "Starting items", supports can also pool regeneration (Tangos, clarities, salves). Towards the carries or solo lanes. This lets carries like AM start off with an item build such as stout shield+quelling blade, which makes farming early much much easier. There's some other, smaller deviations such as smoke for a level one gank, or stacking clarities for a jungler like enigma.
Also, sometimes "luxury" items are actually core ones. CM/VS/Lich are fine with boots+wand all game, but for a hero like ES/SK, blink dagger is required for later teamfights.
I'm not so sure about giving heroes easy/medium/hard rankings either. What do you mean when you say a hero is easy? Easy to play well? Easy to not feed with? It's hard to play a clutch ES. It's hard to not feed with CM.
Well done basic guide for new players. I think that ES/SK/Enigma are all similiar difficulty. I would either put them all at medium or hard difficulty. The thing that this guide is missig most are screenshots with ward placement which is essential for support heroes.
I think we'll be talking about warding in another blog or linking to one of the best blogs about warding.
Yeah, Jango (Drum of Endurance in DotA2) should actually be there. That's a mistake.
I think hero difficulties can be discussed to death, but it has to be kept simple for newer players if you ask me and not feed them with two many options/things so they forget their context. As people get better and understand the game, they will realize that ES is not the easiest hero to play, but it's easy to get a hold of.
Also worth mentioning other items that are great to grab on Support like Medalion or Vlads. Also as someone mentioned you need Blink Dagger on SK and ES for them to truly shine.
On October 31 2011 22:51 Ognam wrote:I'm not so sure about giving heroes easy/medium/hard rankings either. What do you mean when you say a hero is easy? Easy to play well? Easy to not feed with? It's hard to play a clutch ES. It's hard to not feed with CM.
It's meant to be: I'm new to the game. I actually didn't play before. What heroes should I look to be playing and what should I probably wait a bit with. What hero concepts are fairly simple so I can use the spells in a decent manner and not just get bored or angry at the hard execution. I think ES and Sand King is two heroes where it kind of shows the difference of what I mean.
ES is a very hard hero to master and it'll take a lot of getting used to. But he's fairly simple and I think new players will have fun playing him because they can do what they're supposed to!
Sand King is fairly easy too, but understanding the Sand Storm with fadetime and the channeling with Dagger, etc. is definitely harder than ES. So while they're both hard heroes to master, the concept of ES is easier to understand and start with.
On October 31 2011 22:56 Ikuu wrote: Also worth mentioning other items that are great to grab on Support like Medalion or Vlads. Also as someone mentioned you need Blink Dagger on SK and ES for them to truly shine.
Yeah, if you look under Notes under the heroes, it's mentioned that you need a blink dagger on those already. :-)
Nice writeup, I like to see that I've been playing support properly over the past few weeks.
I'm a huge fan of Crystal Maiden and the Lich.
CM is easy to play, takes a bit to master, but with some communication with your lane partner, especially if they have a disable, it becomes quickly apparent how good of a support/babysitter this caster is.
Lich is good fun too; landing that deny every time for mana just feels evil; I love that ability and don't get me started on his ultimate, well placed it can decimate opponents.
I look forward to the forthcoming Ganker and Carry write-ups, assuming they are coming!
Thanks for the miniguide. I never played DotA other than casually but I've been watching some streams and commentaries lately. I've noticed that junging is not a given in every team comp. Why is it worth having five laners (including roamers and babysitters) rather than having at least one designated jungler every game as in LoL?
Awesome guide and im glad flamewheel will be writing some too!
Who needs support though? Everybody you just need 5 carries to pubstomp! jk. I think es is my favourite support to have in my team but ihate playing him
On October 31 2011 23:06 tyCe wrote: Thanks for the miniguide. I never played DotA other than casually but I've been watching some streams and commentaries lately. I've noticed that junging is not a given in every team comp. Why is it worth having five laners (including roamers and babysitters) rather than having at least one designated jungler every game as in LoL?
Because you may not have a hero that can jungle in your lineup, and the reason for not picking one could be one of several reasons, maybe you're planning on running a trilane, maybe the jungling hero doesn't fit into your lineup, maybe it doesn't work well with the strategy you're going to try to run, etc.
The most versatile support hero in that list is Dazzle imo. WIth the right items, he can become a carry hero or a support and carry if the team requires it.
I can do that in DotA but not sure if he is the same in DotA2 since the beta is still waiting for me.
Overall a very nice and short guide about some basics of playing a support hero.
Maybe a little more detailed stuff: -If you play a hardcore babysitter pick up some more healthpots instead of clarities. -Buy your Solomid hero an extra healing pot at the beginning (especially if you already know that he is up against a strong sololaner) -If you have the gold buy a TP for your carry, when he was killed or went back to heal.
Some Trilane basics: If you play trilane (Carry + 2 Supports) -Don't steal gold from your carry - ever, focus only on denying / harassing the enemy. -If your carry has an easy time stay out of his exp range. (go for a gank or creeppull) -Doublepull neutrals and get some farm/exp and even deny a chunk of exp from the enemy.
As some people already said I think Earthshaker is not an easy hero to play especially for beginners. Positioning with him is crucial and with a wrong placed fissure you can fuck up your team.
My favorite Supporthero by far is Dazzle because he's just awesome to play and you feel like a boss when you save someone with shallow grave. =D
Support is the most fun role to play on a good team, but can also be very frustrating when you get bad teammates since your abilities tend to not scale late game. If you're new to the game, it is the best way to learn since you'll have to develop a good sense of the game's flow, where you need to be, and how to correctly participate in the teamfights.
I'm looking forward to this. I am more-so looking forward to some of the out-of-the-box supports(/gankers), who don't see much play anymore. Sometimes playing pubs with them (Dark Seer I'm looking at you) is so enjoyable.
On October 31 2011 23:06 tyCe wrote: Thanks for the miniguide. I never played DotA other than casually but I've been watching some streams and commentaries lately. I've noticed that junging is not a given in every team comp. Why is it worth having five laners (including roamers and babysitters) rather than having at least one designated jungler every game as in LoL?
In LoL not utilizing the jungle spells a loss in competitive games. Jungling is becoming more common these days in DotA as well. A few months ago, the only junglers seen were Enigma, Chen, and Enchantress, with the first using Eidelons to farm and the latter two dominating creep. These days though, Lycanthrope, Furion, and even Storm Spirit can be found in the jungle. but you don't need to have a jungler in DotA. There are heroes in DotA such as Lich that are very capable of soloing a lane against multiple heroes, but for the most part being alone sucks. Sure, you don't have to share the experience... but that's assuming you can get close enough to witness enemy creeps dying. Assuming your team is playing with a carry, that means that if the carry is left alone he/she will be getting neither farm nor experience if the other team has more than one hero in the lane. The non-farming hero can simply walk in front of the creep wave and keep your carry at bay.
Having a defensive jungler on your team means a layer of protection and possibly ganks, but they can be shut down somewhat through wards. And that protection still only occurs when the jungler comes out. A Lycanthrope jungling in the forest next to your lane isn't going to come out to gank if things aren't going well for you--his priority is in farming. Enigma is going to work toward a Soul Ring/Blink Dagger (in most cases) and won't be spending too much time coming to assist you. Enchantress and Chen will come to gank, but they need to have the right creep.
Having a jungler as a protective measure is only protective when they are being proactive. In most situations, they aren't going to save you from being stunned/slowed/nuked to death unless they are very nearby.
Junglers make for decent roamers, but once again that's dependent on the creep. Very well-played Chens and Enchantresses can control the map through roaming, but they still will need a few levels and the right creep(s) to be able to gank effectively. Heroes like Earthshaker, Sven, and Vengeful Spirit need only one level in their stun to be able to effectively roam and gank, and can also ward while at it. Junglers want to maximize their time spent killing neutral creep, and won't really be going out of their way to ward.
Okay whoops I shouldn't be writing an essay on this. Basically junglers are good and are trending right now, but they're not necessary. Oftentimes carries will transition between farming the safe lane and their jungle come the midgame, and if your team is down a hero in a lane that lane can easily be lost. Junglers, for the most part, don't make for very effective roamers early on (Chen can when he gets two/three creeps but that takes level 5).
Hmm actually I feel like I said nothing overall but I have a lot of thoughts swirling in my head. Need to get back to writing hero blogs instead.
If would have loved if you would add some common Wardspots in several stages of the game, as well as adding the hint that counterwarding is a very essential tool if you are playing the "hardcore" support.
I did that as a HoN Tutorial/YT Movie and it had great resonance!
In case you don't have that much time, you could go ahead and talk about general warding placement, say:
if you want to push t2 bottom tower => TELL YOUR TEAM to follow you and try to ward the pillar (In both cases there is an awesome pillar to place a great ward on [if it's the same as in HoN]) Or when to ward which lanes, say the lane where your carry farms and so on and so on, i guess you get my point!
really interesting blog again, well presented as well !
I only played DotA for a year, but the importance of a support is really showing, if you play organized DotA. Playing a good as support is as difficult and important as playing a carry imo - in a different way.
But it's as much fun to see your mates crush thanks to your support as crushing opponents yourself when having support.
Hi Bumblebee. I play DotA 1 alot, and I would like to add some opinions on your blog.
Firstly, the priority farming is a correct concept. However it is important to note that you should not be flexible, and always let the higher priority hero farm. For example, in any game with ES, the ES would barely have any farm early on. But come mid game, it is important to help/give ES the space to farm up his Blink Dagger, because it increases his capabilities by so much. As such, 2 or 3 should give up space for ES to farm. In this case, you can see that ES priority has somewhat increased at that stage. It is also important to understand that some support heroes are actually able to carry later on if required.
Secondly, just as your hero might have low priority farming early on, but high priority farming later on, the opposite can happen. It really depends on your laning and drafting. For example, Lion can be played as a warder or pure support or roamer, but that is actually not his greatest role. Lion needs levels to be effective, which is why a support or trilane Lion is extremely rare and generally ineffective in DotA 1. Lion actually should be played as solo mid. As a solo mid, Lion is relatively higher levels than most heroes, with huge burst damage. This pretty much means a successful gank on any hero when at level 6. A solo mid Lion has very high priority farming, as he needs his dagger ASAP badly. HOWEVER, after he gets his dagger, his priority actually drops and he can become the main warder, gem or smoke buyer etc. This is as Dagger + basic items (Wand Boots TP maybe some HP items) are all Lion needs throughout the game. Dagger Lion is extremely scary ganker in early mid game, which is why the earlier you get the Dagger, the more effective you are (remember Lion has insane high burst damage. Impale + Finger + ally/allies = sure instant death).
Thirdly, I would like to comment on how a team should look like with the priority theory. A standard game tend to consist of 3 main heroes, with 2 supports. The 3 main heroes are on their separate lane. You have the solo mid hero (2), your main carry (1), and your 3rd solo (3). Your 2 supports are usually hanging out in the jungle between 1 and 2, hence they are threatening these 2 lanes. Similarly, the enemy is threatening your 2 and 3. As you can see, 3 is alone and not protected by supports. Hence 3 usually consist of heroes that can escape well, and do decently with levels alone and minimal farm. The main goal of 3 is to leech as much exp as possible and sneak as much creep kills as possible WITHOUT dying. Heroes like PotM and Windrunner comes to mind. Due to their lack of farm early on, later on they have priority 3 farming to catch up. Remember that they can perform decently with just levels alone, hence priority 3 is the norm. 1 as you have mentioned, is the main carry and hence needs the most farm. 2 needs farm to help give the team momentum in the game. Which leaves us to the supports. There are 2 kind of supports: Junglers and non Junglers. Junglers are usually 4, because they have access to farming in jungle As such, they can get their items up easily. 4 are usually also support heroes that might have their priority increased, because they tend to be supports that will have a huge increase in effectiveness with a certain item farmed (Dagger). 5 more or less will always remain at 5. Their chief source of gold is from ganks. CM VS are the best examples of 5.
I think you forgot to add Furion. He is anywhere from 2-4. If he is given a lane early on, he is usually played as 2 or 3. If he is supporting of jungling, he is 4. But he tends to be able to carry later on, and hence it is not uncommon for his priority to increase to 2-3.
Also, I would like to dispute Dazzle. Support is not his main role. He is 2-4. Dazzle as a babysitter usually only works for a specially drafted game based around his heals. Dazzle is a very powerful solo and ganker later on. He actually hits very hard, and can be played as a semi carry. Support Dazzle tend to be the old outdated way of playing him.
Yups. Sorry for the long post. Just wanna add my insights, because I think not many TL actually understands DotA 1, so it is from a player's perspective.
P.S. Could use a DotA 2 Beta Key as well. Otherwise, cheers from Singapore!
When im in a position where i have to play a support for my team, I love going wards first veno. You grab the one level of gale at level 1 for ganks, and can just roam and gank with it very easily. When mid game comes, when ever you feel that a tower will be pushed just set up the defences with your wards and it will give the opponents a very hard time. If you get to the point you farm an sceptre you end up having a very game changing ultimate, when in combo with one such as tidehunter it can literally decimate an entire team. In pubs this hero can also be played as a very strong semi carry, as his base attack can become something that is very strong in combination with his passive poison. The best part about this hero though, is in dota1 he has the same model as everyones favourite hydralisk! Even the dota2 equivalent you can see the resemblance!
cool and informative blog about supporting in both DotA and DotA2 ^^ I always enjoyed being a support/roamer myself. Making sure that the teams 1. carry had an easy time on lane farming up like a madman, as well as helping out both the other side lane and the mid lane for that nice level 6 ultimate kill with the mid hero.
Puppys roaming Earthshaker with a shit ton of clarities for that early gank with fissure would always make for some fun early games ^^
Interesting read. After the gamescom reveal and and especially after watching so many streams I now realize how boring League of Legends is and I lost the motivation to play it anymore. When I will get a Dota 2 key sometime I will definitely use your advices. Looking forward to you future blogs.
On October 31 2011 23:42 NDPoNyBoY wrote: When im in a position where i have to play a support for my team, I love going wards first veno. You grab the one level of gale at level 1 for ganks, and can just roam and gank with it very easily. When mid game comes, when ever you feel that a tower will be pushed just set up the defences with your wards and it will give the opponents a very hard time. If you get to the point you farm an sceptre you end up having a very game changing ultimate, when in combo with one such as tidehunter it can literally decimate an entire team. In pubs this hero can also be played as a very strong semi carry, as his base attack can become something that is very strong in combination with his passive poison. The best part about this hero though, is in dota1 he has the same model as everyones favourite hydralisk! Even the dota2 equivalent you can see the resemblance!
Wards first should be the way to play Veno, solo as support. It allows him to jungle/ancient later on, and contribute to (counter)pushes. Playing Veno as DPS early on is the wrong way imo. My build is usually Gale Sting Ward Ward Ward Ulti Ward.
I really like all the work you've been doing on TL for a section that's mostly just questions about the Beta and tournys, its really helpful, espec for those that haven't played. What's even better is the good pics in the guide, pics make it like 10x better.
Good luck to all for the key, @Bumblebee, who's your favorite support? I think SK is definitely one of the best with his stun/initiator, hide in sandstorm, and his ulti.
i've been a bit of a lurker on tl for a while now, but I suppose this is good incentive for a first post nice write up and interesting read, it's good to see another person's insight on support, people really need to realize that it's not as easy as some say it is.
@Bumblebee/anyone else who cares to comment. I played DotA a long time ago w/ my friend and we stomped some faces in -arem and -apem which i now realize are for nubs lol.
However, I played LoL for a while and enjoyed support and in ranked games you had people who would work on picking a good team comp. As i don't know what DotA 2's system is like my question is "Do they have something similar where you can communicate with your team?" I ask because I would enjoy picking support from day 1 even in unranked games to get the most time learning how to play one effectively. I'm drawn to the support role for liking to help but also because of some of the heroes that are pegged as support. AA, Lich, CM all have neat skill sets that appeal to me.
Also if I win your beta key I will be sure to practice up on my support skills and be the best supporter I can!
Alright, I just broke my accountless lurking for this one chance at a key.
Shame on me
On topic though, there's one thing I don't get - Why would enchantress be considered "hard" to play? Her heal gives her a way to make up for any heavy harassment, and none of her skills are all that pivotal on exact positioning (like Black Hole) or intricate timing/judgement (Holy Persuasion / Ice Blast). A player simply needs to know how to draw the line between lane harassment and risky overextension to stay safe, and get one or two proper wards to make sure jungling isn't dangerous.
On October 31 2011 23:54 LiamTheZerg wrote:Good luck to all for the key, @Bumblebee, who's your favorite support? I think SK is definitely one of the best with his stun/initiator, hide in sandstorm, and his ulti.
Hmm... I don't know really. Maybe Windrunner even though it's one of my bad heroes. Lich is also great fun.
Good read, but I don't think you should categorize the heroes based on difficulty, since it's completely subjective. Some might argue that heroes like ES are actually difficult to use, simply because he's a melee hero and getting proper stuns require some practice and experience, or you could end up hurting your teammates more than anything else, whereas a hero like Veno are relatively easy (at least from a beginner's standpoint) to use, simply because his skills are very straightforward and simple to use.
That's, of course, my own opinion. I'm not even sure what you're basing the difficulty of each hero on, but generally speaking, it's completely subjective and player-dependent. You could perhaps suggest some easy-to-use heroes for new players to try out (vengeful spirit and lion come to mind), but going so far as to categorize the "difficulty" of every support hero could end up pretty misleading.
On October 31 2011 23:56 traumaplay wrote: Alright, I just broke my accountless lurking for this one chance at a key.
Shame on me
On topic though, there's one thing I don't get - Why would enchantress be considered "hard" to play? Her heal gives her a way to make up for any heavy harassment, and none of her skills are all that pivotal on exact positioning (like Black Hole) or intricate timing/judgement (Holy Persuasion / Ice Blast). A player simply needs to know how to draw the line between lane harassment and risky overextension to stay safe, and get one or two proper wards to make sure jungling isn't dangerous.
Or am I missing something entirely here o_O
I kinda agree that Enchantress might be a bit easier. But I think many new people would do bad things to themselves and tame too many creeps and ruin their farm/experience a lot in the jungle.
Very nice breakdown of how to play a support hero and what to buy. I'm interested in DoTA 2 and I'm coming from LoL so having these types of guides that are easy to digest are great for a player like me.
I think this is a good general guideline. Without going off on specific tangents for specific heroes/roles, I think maybe mentioning creep stacking/pulling would be useful as well, as it allows you to dictate the flow of the lane, and potentially "power" a specific hero when they have a bfury or an aoe allowing them to cash in on the exp/gold quickly.
Great guide, only comment i have is i'd prolly have added a map with ward placements. As in, just a map showing the generally good places to ward, like outside rosh and so on.
On October 31 2011 23:56 traumaplay wrote: Alright, I just broke my accountless lurking for this one chance at a key.
Shame on me
On topic though, there's one thing I don't get - Why would enchantress be considered "hard" to play? Her heal gives her a way to make up for any heavy harassment, and none of her skills are all that pivotal on exact positioning (like Black Hole) or intricate timing/judgement (Holy Persuasion / Ice Blast). A player simply needs to know how to draw the line between lane harassment and risky overextension to stay safe, and get one or two proper wards to make sure jungling isn't dangerous.
Or am I missing something entirely here o_O
I kinda agree that Enchantress might be a bit easier. But I think many new people would do bad things to themselves and tame too many creeps and ruin their farm/experience a lot in the jungle.
And what the guy above me said too. :-)
Ahhh makes sense. Thanks for the enlightenment! :D
I wouldn't call ES an easy hero, maybe easy to play and incredibly hard to master as he is that versatile, personally I like playing Lich,VS and ES the most, not a fan of dazzle or tide or antything like that
Generally, OP has correct view on the level of difficulty of heroes. This blog was for the newbies I presume, and ES/CM are rather friendly. This is as all you need is to land your Nova Bite Fissure etc and you are done. You don't need the perfect fissure at low level games. You just need A fissure. However, at a higher level, these heroes are actually quite hard to play.
On topic though, there's one thing I don't get - Why would enchantress be considered "hard" to play? Her heal gives her a way to make up for any heavy harassment, and none of her skills are all that pivotal on exact positioning (like Black Hole) or intricate timing/judgement (Holy Persuasion / Ice Blast). A player simply needs to know how to draw the line between lane harassment and risky overextension to stay safe, and get one or two proper wards to make sure jungling isn't dangerous.
This is because Enchantress has very low HP. Furthermore, you would need greater micro to handle the creeps during ganks or pushes, while ensuring that your Enchant is using Impetus, and not out of position getting nuked/towered etc.
I briefly played the first defense of the ancients game, but i have played games such as League of Legends and Heroes of Newerth, and i have to say i really appreciate the role of support and how it gives DoTa an incredible dynamic that is different from many other games. The coordination required among team mates, and the correct use of a support requires great amounts of time (synergy developement, playing with the same people frequently), skill, and challenges a different skillset than a game such as starcraft. I, for one, play a support quite frequently and when playing with good friends who you have coordination with,it makes the difference.
Thanks for a great writeup, it has actually been hard finding decent guides for DotA2 as of yet (I suppose everyone with access to beta is playing non stop). This will be a good reference when choosing character.
I suppose I have decent knowledge on the LoL and HoN support heroes, but the DotA metagame for supporters has been hard to keep up with for the last couple of years.
On October 31 2011 23:06 tyCe wrote: Thanks for the miniguide. I never played DotA other than casually but I've been watching some streams and commentaries lately. I've noticed that junging is not a given in every team comp. Why is it worth having five laners (including roamers and babysitters) rather than having at least one designated jungler every game as in LoL?
Jungling is almost always slower than staying in a lane. Although some heroes farm nearly as effectively in the forest as they do in a lane, jungling is generally reserved for heroes that have a spell that deal particularly well with neutral creeps (Chen/Enchant/Enigma). By having a jungler, you're weakening your team's lane presence unless they have the ability to be very active in ganking from the forest(again, Chen/Enchant/Enigma).
Thanks for these blogs alot, ive been a big dota player, but quit about 1 year ago, im really looking forward to dota2 im preaty sure im gonna get back to it.
These blogs are awsome they help me get back into the mood of the game and to relearn everything much faster.
On November 01 2011 00:07 brachester wrote: why are there so many intelligence heroes?
Intelligence heroes don't scale well with items. Agility heroes get more damage, more attack speed, and more armor, whereas int heroes only gain damage and mana. The damage/stun/effects of spells have a hard cap once they are maxed out with 4 levels, so getting more items/levels doesn't change their power. Agility/Strength heroes generally have "steroid" spells, which increase attack speed/damage/cleave, and thus increase in power as your items increase.
In effect, intelligence heroes hit a hard cap on their damage output once their skills are maxed, whereas agility heroes hit the hard cap once their items are maxed, and it takes much much longer to max out on items than it does to max out on skill levels.
I'm loving your blogs about dota , and you are really cool for giving out beta keys, even if i never win one i think that is really awesome what you are doing (: On the topic of the blog: i personally love playing support and have fallen in love with both AA and Enigma since watching NaVi play them soo well (the Puppy black hole in ESWC was fucking amazing). Edit: You forgot Rhasta =]
Nice write-up. I generally think that support is an overlooked role in the MOBA genre. It's like in football when the guy who passes the ball to his teammate, who then goes ahead and scores, get no recognition. In my opinion support is the hardest role to fullfill right below the mid hero
Very good guide for "newer" players or players coming from League of Legends, I like how you also added in information on good starting items, core items and especially luxury items. I would however, like to note that I do disagree with some of your difficulty ratings for some of the heroes for example ES should be "Hard" in my opinion because some players would have difficulty from just picking him up to landing the correct Fissures to "zone" specific areas. Take the youtuber talesoflumin for example; now don't get me wrong I love the guy, he is funny and likes to enjoy the game regardless of the situation,(Example game but in this example game when he plays ES he uses Fissure for only the stun effect and not for the "zoning" effect. Venomancer as well I would disagree, instead of being a medium difficulty I'd rather see him as an easier hero such like CM. I find Vengeful Spirit sort of controversial because of her ult, it does take decision making and sometimes quick reactions to get the "best" swaps such as; getting the carry separated from group, saving your own carry etc. I would believe that it's better to see Vengeful Spirit in "medium" but then again these are my own opinions. But overall I find this a very good guide!
Edit: Holy check I didn't expect the video to pop up into the text. Sorry!
Man, I can't wait to play this game. I spent so many hours playing DotA and HoN, and LoL just doesn't feel the same, though all my friends play it >.<.
Certain heroes are definitely easy like CM and Lich, but the rest I just can't see how you can file under easy to play because they have such high potentials of execution. I also thought vengeful spirit was one of the harder supports to use when you started out because of the short auto attack range, and ganking is kind of demanding on newer players.
Mind naming the items . I don't recognise some of the new dota 2 pictures. Mainly the ones under boots, on the first set of pictures is that a salve? and on the 2nd set is that an Eul's?
I would class Enigma as an easy hero, all you really need to do late game is good get ultamites off and have enough farm for a BkB. Somewhat in the same boat as Tide tbh, they have the same job come late game...
Best support in the game tho is Windrunner hands down. So versatile, got a nice disable, finishing move and escape mechanism. Goes great with a Force staff and Mek :D.
I love supports its pretty much all I play (WR, CM, VS, Seer and Shadow Demon) :D, I like enabling a good team fight or setting up our carry to own.
Cannot wait for the damn Beta to go public .
Edit - Also no furion? He can be a support? But I guess its how you build him.
On November 01 2011 00:25 Itsmedudeman wrote: Certain heroes are definitely easy like CM and Lich, but the rest I just can't see how you can file under easy to play because they have such high potentials of execution. I also thought vengeful spirit was one of the harder supports to use when you started out because of the short auto attack range, and ganking is kind of demanding on newer players.
I don't think he means easy to play at a high level, just easy to get the hang of. I know VS was one of the easiest heroes for me to figure out, even if I wasn't good yet.
I definitely feel the most at home with supports though, I can't carry worth a crap, but I love enabling my carry and ganking.
On November 01 2011 00:26 Benjef wrote: Mind naming the items . I don't recognise some of the new dota 2 pictures. Mainly the ones under boots, on the first set of pictures is that a salve? and on the 2nd set is that an Eul's?
I would class Enigma as an easy hero, all you really need to do late game is good get ultamites off and have enough farm for a BkB. Somewhat in the same boat as Tide tbh, they have the same job come late game...
Best support in the game tho is Windrunner hands down. So versatile, got a nice disable, finishing move and escape mechanism. Goes great with a Force staff and Mek :D.
Cannot wait for the damn Beta to go public .
Edit - Also no furion? He can be a support? But I guess its how you build him.
Under boots is: Sentry/Observer wards, Dust of appearance, Smoke of Deceit, TP Scroll.
Under luxury items: Phase/Treads/Arcane boots, Magic wand, Basilus, Urn, Force Staff, Euls(I think? who buys this item LOL), Mek, Blink Dagger.
Edit: Just noticed, shouldn't BKB be in luxury items too?
If you're curious as to what the items are, right click them and copy the picture link. Then you can see it in the .png filename. I can't edit because I don't have html rights, so I'd need someone else to edit it for me.
Enjoyed the guide, I've been playing HoN on and off for a while now and found it very helpful. Would appreciate it if you would name the items in future posts, I don't actually recognise which ones they are.. Anyway, support I think is the hardest role for me to play so really appreciate it! Thanks for the posts and hopefully the key!
Im not yet used to those dota2 item icons..Support heroes have always been my favourite. Mainly in the form of str teambattle heroes(Crix, TC) or Int ganker/teambattle heroes(WR, WD, Enigma).
I love your blogs, makes me really excited for Dota 2. Even though I only play HoN and barely know which hero does what in Dota comparatively, I learn a lot of good abstract concepts from this.
On October 31 2011 22:22 drmaul wrote: I don't see how you can give any heroes an 'easy' difficulty. They aren't easy at all to play correctly. Sure, while you aren't farming and shit on them, there are a TON of other things you need to do or pay attention to.
There always is many things to do and no hero is easy to master. However the concepts of some heroes and what you have to do is definitely easier than others.
I dunno if you can really class things as easy to hard. Just seems a too simplistic way of doing it. Since all support heroes require similar map presence and understanding they will always be hard to master in a fundamental aspect.
Also maybe put something under salving your teammates. That's generally quite important if lanes are under fire.
i disagree with the nonstop warding done by one hero alone. you are useless later on and die like paper if you spend 2k on wards alone. that, combined with the usual flaming that comes along "omg no items noob", makes for a very unpleasant game experience.
however, after having read multiple "guides" over the years, basicly everyone advocates the "spend everything you have on wards", you must be either very skilled to not eat the first damage chunk of a beginning teamfight (and thus getting instagibbed), or very lucky (as some even go that far to tell you if you have more than boots after 30 mins ingame with maiden, you're doing it wrong).
hence: do split up the costs on multiple heroes, even let the carry buy a set. guess disagreeing doesnt make me look good for winning ay ? :p
On November 01 2011 00:46 AwfulPlayer wrote: i disagree with the nonstop warding done by one hero alone. you are useless later on and die like paper if you spend 2k on wards alone. that, combined with the usual flaming that comes along "omg no items noob", makes for a very unpleasant game experience.
however, after having read multiple "guides" over the years, basicly everyone advocates the "spend everything you have on wards", you must be either very skilled to not eat the first damage chunk of a beginning teamfight (and thus getting instagibbed), or very lucky (as some even go that far to tell you if you have more than boots after 30 mins ingame with maiden, you're doing it wrong).
hence: do split up the costs on multiple heroes, even let the carry buy a set. guess disagreeing doesnt make me look good for winning ay ? :p
Your carry should never be forced to buy wards. But yeah, you shouldn't spend every single cent on wards. It's more about finding a even balance between playing to win and playing for fun. It's usually not fun to be the wardbitch going 1-14 every game. But you're not going to win the game if you're playing CM farming in lane until you have BKB+Blink.
Nice read, although i would like to read a further explanation on why you consider AA a hard to play supporter. I would rather put him in the easy - mid section and mid only because you can do some nice skillshots with his ulti.
What do you think of Mirana as a support? Her leap would massively help with mobility to ward better and to get out of oh shit moments or deny runes or what have you, and her possible insanely long 4 second stun if you get lucky can be a silly strong help too.
On November 01 2011 01:01 Shalaiyn wrote: What do you think of Mirana as a support? Her leap would massively help with mobility to ward better and to get out of oh shit moments or deny runes or what have you, and her possible insanely long 4 second stun if you get lucky can be a silly strong help too.
She fills a similar role to Windrunner. Both are extremely versatile and can be played as semi-carries. They're both better at soloing an off-lane in my opinion though because of the strong escape moves/farming potential that lets them scrape out farm even against usually unfavorable laning situations (Trilanes, long lanes, etc). Mirana scales well into the lategame however, since she's agility and starfall lets her farm very well, so I don't think playing her as a dedicated support is the best idea.
On November 01 2011 00:46 AwfulPlayer wrote: i disagree with the nonstop warding done by one hero alone. you are useless later on and die like paper if you spend 2k on wards alone. that, combined with the usual flaming that comes along "omg no items noob", makes for a very unpleasant game experience.
however, after having read multiple "guides" over the years, basicly everyone advocates the "spend everything you have on wards", you must be either very skilled to not eat the first damage chunk of a beginning teamfight (and thus getting instagibbed), or very lucky (as some even go that far to tell you if you have more than boots after 30 mins ingame with maiden, you're doing it wrong).
hence: do split up the costs on multiple heroes, even let the carry buy a set. guess disagreeing doesnt make me look good for winning ay ? :p
Namely because you are terribly wrong. Splitting costs up when there's no need to. As for dying in a team fight, generally you should have enough HP to survive the general AoE (or some alternative means). There is no luck involved, players don't get special bonuses to heroes based on who's playing them. If you get focused down, so be it, but that death shouldn't be a free death.
Basically playing support is recognizing what you need to do to put your team in a winning position, they do all the things that lead up to a win without actually winning the game.
Tidehunter is a support? he always seemed so much stronger to me. then again i dont know much since i got sucked into Hon and i really want a chance to get to know the beta a bit more
On October 31 2011 23:16 Midas_ wrote: Overall a very nice and short guide about some basics of playing a support hero.
Maybe a little more detailed stuff: -If you play a hardcore babysitter pick up some more healthpots instead of clarities. -Buy your Solomid hero an extra healing pot at the beginning (especially if you already know that he is up against a strong sololaner) -If you have the gold buy a TP for your carry, when he was killed or went back to heal.
Some Trilane basics: If you play trilane (Carry + 2 Supports) -Don't steal gold from your carry - ever, focus only on denying / harassing the enemy. -If your carry has an easy time stay out of his exp range. (go for a gank or creeppull) -Doublepull neutrals and get some farm/exp and even deny a chunk of exp from the enemy.
As some people already said I think Earthshaker is not an easy hero to play especially for beginners. Positioning with him is crucial and with a wrong placed fissure you can fuck up your team.
My favorite Supporthero by far is Dazzle because he's just awesome to play and you feel like a boss when you save someone with shallow grave. =D
Some comments to this post related to trilane basics.
- Staying out of exp range from the carry is actually often a bad idea. Most hard carries are more dependant on farm and items than levels. Supports being underleveled would usually be a more critical problem than well farmed carries having 1 level less. Secondly, as it's during laning phase you would want at least a few of the first levels on your supports, so when the situation changes you're able to adapt. Both in relation to deciding to push the tower, being forced to go for a kill/keep enemy out of exp behind tower. (3 v 1 and lane pushes)
- Double (and single) pulling is a great thing, however it not just be done blindly as soon as possible. Im mainly talking with respect to trilaning safelane, where there is a number of things to consider. Is the lane pushing? Can the enemy be kept from exp? Do we have the level to kill him at tower? Is it worth pushing the tower, or letting him stay level 1? Double pulling is often used to deny entire creep waves, whereas single pulls are used to start pushes. Besides the obvious exp and gold gains of course. Just wanting to point out that there is more to the subject than what one might think.
In relation to the OP
I just want to mention a few aspects a support should do or at least consider. As with pretty much every aspect it's always dependant on the game.
1. Staying out of sight is a valuable skill toi have. This makes you 'miss', and lead to uncertainty on the opposing team, as well as helping you not being ganked. When hiding you need to consider if you are standing within reach to help you ally, if you could possibly be seen by a ward and such.
2. The minimap Look at it. All the time, just like SC. As support you are often in a position where the imediate situation doesn't aquire as much attention as it does to lasthit properly, or being on a solo lane. At least in team games with good communication (this is what I'm used to) it's not wrong to call misses from all the lanes, and recite who's missing, who should be carefull, and 'pinging' where the enemy are.
3. Runes Check the runes - sometimes (coordinate with your mid lane player). If the lane is passive and you feel the enemy won't be able to gain too much from you temporary absence. Don't do this blindly, and pay attention to if the enemy is checking the rune as well. Don't go to a rune with a level 3 CM if a lvl 6 enemy Lion is going as well.
4. Creep pulling As I mentioned briefly there is many purposes of this. Do it wisely (a lot of experience is required here). If you think if pulling/stacking pay attention to the time, and threathen the lane as long as possibly, without being too late to do your task. If you're hiding, of course, then it shouldn't be a problem to hit the timing.
Concerning item builds
As some have already mentioned there is a few other items that supports might consider going for. - Janggo (Drum of endurrance or w/e the Dota2 name is?) - Medallion - Vlads - Vanguard - Hood/planewalkers cloak - Bracers - Soulring (very situational) - Ghost scepter (situational) - Veil of discord
One of the points with many of the items supports usually get, is that they require no or few 'big' items, and can be made gradually. Getting a bracer for Drum gives you hp, etc. Often, supports would go for hp items with 'spare' gold, like Str-Treads, Bracers, Vanguard. Supports getting so beefy that they enemy carries can't 'just' kill them can have quite a huge impact on a game. In regard to the above, it's my personal experience that movespeed and items for positioning sometimes is preferable over general survival items. Position is always important, and so is getting around the map. The supports often dies when caught, independantly if they have 1400 hp or 1100. Getting away/staying out of range is sometimes more usefull. My standard build ('big' items) on CM is phaseboots and Drum, mainly for the movespeed. Inexperienced players should probably be carefull with neglecting HP items though.
Regarding wards and support-items (dust, smoke etc.)
Don't be affraid to ask the farming players to buy some of the items. YES, it is your main purpose, but no-boots after 20 min is not very desireable. Might be difficult to get though in a 'pub' or less organized game though, and is mainly for team games. Also, getting heroes with sufficient survivabilty to place certain wards sometimes is often smart as well. Like letting Furion/Natures Prophet TP behind enemy lines and put an offensive ward, or letting puck with dagger go 'deep' into the jungle rather than squishy CM or vengefull.
Starting items
I agree with your item builds fully- but say you're gonna roam mainly. More regen and less stats can sometimes be better. If you're certain you'll get a farming 3-lane vs a defensive solo (who won't get exp initially) buying a lot of regen is often a waste. Be carefull here though, as you don't want to enter a 3v3 laning situation with too little regeneration.
Ugh, I think that was it. Just what I got on my mind when I read through the blog and the comments
Great job with the blog.
EDIT: Gahh, feel like doing a thorough 3-lane guide, but I don't have the time at the moment, and I'm also a little out of touch with Dota2. Maybe someday x_x
On November 01 2011 00:46 AwfulPlayer wrote: i disagree with the nonstop warding done by one hero alone. you are useless later on and die like paper if you spend 2k on wards alone. that, combined with the usual flaming that comes along "omg no items noob", makes for a very unpleasant game experience.
however, after having read multiple "guides" over the years, basicly everyone advocates the "spend everything you have on wards", you must be either very skilled to not eat the first damage chunk of a beginning teamfight (and thus getting instagibbed), or very lucky (as some even go that far to tell you if you have more than boots after 30 mins ingame with maiden, you're doing it wrong).
hence: do split up the costs on multiple heroes, even let the carry buy a set. guess disagreeing doesnt make me look good for winning ay ? :p
Nope you shouldn't split cost. They should be bought by the 4 or 5. Actually, if you have just boots after 30mins with CM, you are doing it wrong, very wrong. A support always buys the wards, because they can perform very well with MINIMAL, and not ZERO items. Basically, all the 5 needs is Boots, Wand, TP early game. Later on, They should have at the very least a Bracer or 2 and maybe a Cloak. It is not uncommon to see them having Urn/Jango/Medallion/Basilus/Treads/PointBooster later on in a good game.
In pubs, nobody takes the initiative to buy wards. Sometimes when I carry, I buy wards just to guard myself.
Great read :D Altho I think you should've considered giving jungling heroes a bit more words. The difference between an Enigma in the jungle (maybe even offensive jungling) compared to a passive venge or CM that babysits all game is quite big. You did make it clear in the easy vs hard support heroes to play, but I thought it would be nice to describe it in more detail. Also would've liked a seperate chapter just on warding, but maybe the subject is so big it requires an entire blog post on its own :D
Yay!, Thanks for doing these giveaways for people like me who stalk every possible dota 2 beta key giveaway. I am very grateful and good luck everyone!.
another good read reminds me of the difference between public gaming and playing "real" games again. as for the last 2 or 3 years since leaving dota and heading to wow and after that hon/lol, ive missed the serious games as i cant find myself playing any competitive until early next year. always good to keep track of the moba games development, in all 3 of them. watching several streams in the evening gives good insight
I dont think that the Crystal maiden is that easy to play, Id put it somewhere up at the medium/high cattegory as it just fits there more. Ive seen several people fail with it...
On November 01 2011 02:40 Uesugi. wrote: I dont think that the Crystal maiden is that easy to play, Id put it somewhere up at the medium/high cattegory as it just fits there more. Ive seen several people fail with it...
You would have to be pretty bad to fail as CM... As long as you actually cast your frost bite to disable carries/channeling spells and nova on running enemies your good and level up brilliance aura fast...
But I guess where most people fail with CM is the low MS and the super squishyness. Most people over extend early game and get chased down super easy, well in pubs anyway. I like to rush bracerx2 on CM just to stay alive lol... Or grab a point booster if you get a nice farm run.
I have always felt like gank/initiate (like an ES, SK, Sven) is sort of its own category which differs from semi-carry/gank (Lina, Mirana). Like, Lina Veno and WR in this group of heroes is quite different than a VS Lion SK ES
Backpack : Curious as to why Enigma is listed as a hard support to play. Is it just because you have to know how to jungle?
I think he should be switched with ES. Correctly playing Earthshaker is much harder than with Enigma.
Enigma is one of the most difficult supports because of his ult. It's most of his utility (especially late game) and requires impeccable timing and situational awareness to use effectively. If you miss anyone who can disable you there's a good chance you just cost your team a fight.
ES is also pretty difficult, but is much more forgiving in that it takes an epic bad fissure to really hose your team. The cooldowns on ES's abilities are also much shorter, giving you more opportunities to help out.
Anyone who plays Chen gets my auto-respect if he does well. I know microing is ez due to SC2, but whenever I play him, I fumble and suck balls.
Both VS, Lich and Crystal Maiden are the easiest in the world because their intent or use in the game is straight-forward: pull creeps, deny/harass, ward hardcore.
On November 01 2011 04:00 Torte de Lini wrote: Anyone who plays Chen gets my auto-respect if he does well. I know microing is ez due to SC2, but whenever I play him, I fumble and suck balls.
Yeh, I was so impressed with Puppeh playing Chen. It was beautiful, I tried to play a game with Chen straight after the finals and failed so hard.
I actually have no idea why ES is listed as an easy hero either. Probably at least a medium for the awareness and skill needed to land a good fissure and echo.
If I'm playing ES or SK, when is it okay (if it is) to take farm from a hard carry? I always really want to get that blink dagger/portal key, but I'm always afraid of screwing up the late game because I took a kill or two. Is it usually best to just save up my assist gold? If I'm in a pub, I could just sneak in a KS during a teamfight, no?
Edit How convenient for me to make this post just before beerfury makes a post that provides some insight that I want lol.
It is very interesting that you mention the priority of farming, which is very important in the game. The importance of gold to different role surely reflect the payoff of the farm. However, I think support should actually have fair amount of farm instead of relying on the gold thats given out base on time. Look back the old LGD when the dominate chinese dota. It is not hard to find that even though their carries are given a lot of space for farming, but the supporters are also farmed. Not necessarily collect gold from creep or kills, but from pushing. Their strategy is gank and push, which supporter support only the early game and leave the lane when the carry gains advantages. Overall, both sides (carry and support) out farmed and out leveled the other team. That really makes LGD a legend. So I think support's job is not wait money to buy ward but do has a sense of farming to maintain high survivability.
Regarding your classification of the supporters, I would say I agree on some of it. For ES, which is my fav hero, I think dagger is not a need. Ofter ES player think dagger will helps them change the game, but it is not against stacked team now because it is hard to jump in and ult the whole team. With higher caution, ES could barely contribute to the teamfight with less survivability. Represent by EH.357, who a is very creative support player, he usually make bracer or vanguard when facing a tough team. It works out really well. With higher hp and defensive build, ES can finish a complete combo and maybe some extra stun to help out the team. ES's ult is deadly, but fissure is the skill which makes ES annoying and shine.
For the difficulties of the supporters, I don't think enigma should be classified difficult. Compare to other junglers, enigma is easy and can farm up fast. With chen and enchantress, they both need some level of micro which is hard for new players. But enigma is simple. Besides that, I saw someone mentions Furion as a supporter. Yes, he is a decent support because he can help out anytime anywhere. I also consider it to be hard to play support because it do require a lot of map awareness and mini map awareness. It also can farm up fast since he can jungle and push lanes. One mistake which many ignorant player made is they push 24/7 and leave carry no money and blame the teammates for losing. Keep in mind that furion's skill is not qualified for a hard carry therefore furion should only farm the free money: which means the money that the carry can't farm. He can helps out when the other team is pushing one lane but your team has no way to stop the push, furion with simple build may even out push the other team.
Sum it up, support is probably the hardest role or most complicated role in the game because they have multi task to do. They are usually the nice guy on your team who pays your delivery(couriers) and buy you free drink(health potion). So don't blame supporter too hard considering the level of skills that are required to be a pro support.
On November 01 2011 05:12 LoLAdriankat wrote: If I'm playing ES or SK, when is it okay (if it is) to take farm from a hard carry? I always really want to get that blink dagger/portal key, but I'm always afraid of screwing up the late game because I took a kill or two. Is it usually best to just save up my assist gold? If I'm in a pub, I could just sneak in a KS during a teamfight, no?
Basically only take farm when you're very close to dagger. Live off assist gold/ganks/random creeps until you're a few hundred off it, then ask to take a wave or two, hopefully when your carry is off jungling/healing/dead.
I never went competitive in DotA one, despite playing it causally for a year, because I was always infactuated with the hero Razer as a concept. I just really like the idea of a zippy hero without a escape mechanism that can be mended as the game develops into any role with the right items.
Have you played Razer yet? Does it feel the same as it was in Dota?
On November 01 2011 05:41 Primadog wrote: I never went competitive in DotA one, despite playing it causally for a year, because I was always infactuated with the hero Razer as a concept. I just really like the idea of a zippy hero without a escape mechanism that can be mended as the game develops into any role with the right items.
Have you played Razer yet? Does it feel the same as it was in Dota?
He whips you into place if that's what you want to know.
In any case, all heroes are about exactly the same as they were in DOTA1.
On November 01 2011 05:41 Primadog wrote: I never went competitive in DotA one, despite playing it causally for a year, because I was always infactuated with the hero Razer as a concept. I just really like the idea of a zippy hero without a escape mechanism that can be mended as the game develops into any role with the right items.
Have you played Razer yet? Does it feel the same as it was in Dota?
Depends if you're talking about the Razer before his major remake or after it. How long ago did you play DotA1?
On November 01 2011 04:00 Torte de Lini wrote: Anyone who plays Chen gets my auto-respect if he does well. I know microing is ez due to SC2, but whenever I play him, I fumble and suck balls.
Both VS, Lich and Crystal Maiden are the easiest in the world because their intent or use in the game is straight-forward: pull creeps, deny/harass, ward hardcore.
really simple :3 Lich especially!
Suddenly an amazing Meepo is played in competitive play and a black hole appears
On November 01 2011 04:00 Torte de Lini wrote: Anyone who plays Chen gets my auto-respect if he does well. I know microing is ez due to SC2, but whenever I play him, I fumble and suck balls.
i totally agree, playing Chen is a real challenge. its not only about moving the creeps and Chen simultaneously sometimes on very different parts of the map, its about using the creep skills to their full effect as well. I really like playing Chen, but it's really hard and I'm by no means a good Chen yet.
everytime i read chen somewhere i remember puppey saving pudges life at the internationals final :D awesome, puppey obviously being one of the best chen users out there
On November 01 2011 05:41 Primadog wrote: I never went competitive in DotA one, despite playing it causally for a year, because I was always infactuated with the hero Razer as a concept. I just really like the idea of a zippy hero without a escape mechanism that can be mended as the game develops into any role with the right items.
Have you played Razer yet? Does it feel the same as it was in Dota?
Depends if you're talking about the Razer before his major remake or after it. How long ago did you play DotA1?
I prefer the original, passive-driven version of Razer, but the new spammier one was acceptable as well.
As a person who played DotA for years, most of this guide doesn't come as a surprise to me. Nevertheless, I find it interesting that out of all champions, the support champions seem to have the strongest battle-turning ultimates (except Sven, maybe). Compared to the raw disruption that Enigma and Earthshaker's ultimates possess, it feels like the ultimates of some of the 'carry' champions are just underwhelming.
I guess this reflects the design that spells don't really scale and these support champions don't really scale well with items in general, and as a result need to have more powerful ultimates.
Thanks for the opportunity again Bumblebee. Love the added content with your blogs on Dota, especially for alot of the newer players that are sure to be attracted to this game. Always felt like those players who played SC2, especially somewhat competitively, and actively tried to get better, would naturally find a very similarly challenging, yet ultimately rewarding experience in a game like Dota.
Hopefully these articles help shed some light on alot of the fundamentals and details about the game, and also show more depth and nuance for those who are already familiar with alot of the basics. Supports are a key part of the game, and as many have said, are generally a great type of character for a newer player to adopt. They feel like they are helping the team, and playing an integral role, but without quite the pressure of a hard carry, knowing the whole game rests in large part due to you doing your job properly.
Thanks for the blog! Excited that i saw this even though i don't have twitter;
Another great read but seeing ES in the easy spoiler made me double take a little bit. Performing a useful stun with ES is a pretty hard feat for normal players. I mean messing up his block can hurt your team so so much. Furthermore, knowing when and how to ult is also a core skill that goes beyond the 'easy' category. He also requires a good sense of farm, because beyond being a support player, if the game goes late he needs a blink dagger and turns into your initiator.
Overall, a really good blog and i agree with your comments about wards being the absolute top priority. I feel a magic stick should be a pretty close second after boots; it's just so useful!
Edit: CMs ult just got a buff in HoN - is it the same mechanic in dota2?
CM's hard if you trilane, because you're responsible for using your 600 range along with your slow to do a ton of harassment while denying and taking the occasional creep kill. You can kill a level 4 creep with level 1 frostbite (except a furborg, which takes a few extra hits), while still running, which is nice for extra gold.
Chen, my biggest problem is always being in the right place at the right time to port allies back to base. Good supports have to tp immediately to other lanes in ganks. If you're late, you messed up and you're not a good support. Solos can be a bit more oblivious and focus on laning.
Perfect fissures are hard. Being a typical pub counterganker is much easier. Positioning perfectly with stunners is non-trivial and spells the difference between an unstoppable gank against a good player and a failure.
I hope you didnt give out the keys yet :o! I see so many people typing walls of text and im unable to impress you because i cant say much but im eager to play DotA and im super excited. i admire its diversity compared to LoL and the game looks so crisp and clean atm. I was never a support player though so :x
On November 01 2011 12:34 Kenpachi wrote: I hope you didnt give out the keys yet :o! I see so many people typing walls of text and im unable to impress you because i cant say much but im eager to play DotA and im super excited. i admire its diversity compared to LoL and the game looks so crisp and clean atm. I was never a support player though so :x
He's just going to randomly give away the key assuming your post doesn't suck which it doesn't, so don't worry!
Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote: Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
Well, from that list:
Str: Earthshaker = Behemoth Sand King = Magmus Sven = Hammerstorm Tidehunter is similar to Kraken, but not a direct copy.
Int: Windrunner is somewhat similar to Aluna, but not a direct copy. Crystal Maiden = Glacius Lich = Plague Raider Lion = Witch Slayer Witch doctor = Vodoo Jester with some small diferences Enigma = Tempest Lina = Pyromancer Dazzle = Demented Shaman, with some diferences Chen = Ophelia Ancient Aparition is unlike anything in HoN Enchantress as well has nothing similar in HoN
Carrying as a suport can be hilarious and effective, depending on the level you are playing at. It's definatelly fun to do from time to time.
On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote: Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
Lina = Pyromancer
There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is.
Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell
On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote: Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
Lina = Pyromancer
There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is.
Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell
Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles.
Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor?
On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote: Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
Lina = Pyromancer
There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is.
Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell
Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles.
Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor?
Pyro is not a physical carry, she does do respecatable damage later on with items but nowhere near a carry. Slither's wards are a ton weaker, they give less vision and iirc are less spammable.
Also about the main post. One thing I really disagree with is behemoth being an easy hero. Sure you can play him by just throwing outa stun here and there and having nice long range. The hero is really quite bad aside from that and theres so much wasted potential. A good fissue is easily a fb and the delay on the majority of his skills make timing somewhat difficult at times. That and still being a good gank/roamer and getting a decently timed portal key etc is important.
On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote: Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
Lina = Pyromancer
There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is.
Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell
Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles.
Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor?
Plague Riders ulti only ministuns on the first target, which Lichs ultimate does too.
Cyclone stick's icon looks pretty cool, definitely very different from Eul's in DotA.
I think it's been mentioned a few times earlier, but buying extra healing items (salves, tangos) for your mid or side solo can be a very good choice, especially if you're doing a trilane. I suppose this is a bit more advanced and more often used in organized games, so maybe it doesn't have a place in this series of introductory blogs.
On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote: Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
Lina = Pyromancer
There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is.
Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell
Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles.
Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor?
Plague Riders ulti only ministuns on the first target, which Lichs ultimate does too.
Yeah, that was my mistake, I believe they still reworked his shield didn't they? Anyway, I didn't mean to be this off-topic, it was just suposed to be a list so people that started at HoN have an idea about how those heroes work. If you want to nitpick, one of the biggest diference I would see when switching from suport in HoN to suport in Dota is the attack animations. Pyromancer/Lina is probally the biggest example, followed by CM/Glacius, but a lot of the mentioned heroes feel a lot harder to lasthit/deny in Dota.
I have another question for anyone who's played the beta. Is microing easier in DotA 2? I mean in War3 you're using that RTS game engine for hotkeys and things that help you micro your dominated units. Is there a similar hotkey system in DotA 2 or is it something different that makes it slightly easier to micro with chen?
Awesome guide, especially for those of us who like playing Intelligence/support heroes but have been away from the game for quite some time. I know that I, in particular, have had huge difficulty adjusting back to DotA-style mechanics after playing League of Legends for so long.
I just have to get used to the new icons for items and heroes. I still don't recognize the difference between the boots and stuff. :<
EDIT: Whoa, my 1500th post on the 150th post of this topic. Crazy. Also, hello Reaver icon.
On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote: Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
Lina = Pyromancer
There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is.
Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell
Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles.
Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor?
Pyro is not a physical carry, she does do respecatable damage later on with items but nowhere near a carry. Slither's wards are a ton weaker, they give less vision and iirc are less spammable.
It obviously depends on your team lineup, if your team's got a hero like madman or puppet master, you're clearly not going to run your pyro as the main carry of your team, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so, assuming both teams allow for it (vindicator for example shuts this down hard because you need the attack speed buff during team fights), but she can be run as the same kind of carry as for example a soulstealer (shadow fiend), which is more of a midgame/semi-carry, and she's quite flexible when played like that as well, you can have her solo a lane, or you can run a trilane with outrageously high kill potential (ie pyro/magmus/myrmidon).
Point is, she doesn't really have the same role in hon (though she is run as support on occasion) as she does in dota, while all other heroes fill the same role more or less.
When I usually support i buy two wards 4 branches and 1-2 sets of tangos i think that is the most efficient for me because it allows me to be aggressive and deny while having the ability to sell branches if i need to pick something up since they have the highest sell ratio in the game.
On November 02 2011 04:39 Spicy_Curry wrote: When I usually support i buy two wards 4 branches and 1-2 sets of tangos i think that is the most efficient for me because it allows me to be aggressive and deny while having the ability to sell branches if i need to pick something up since they have the highest sell ratio in the game.
you shouldnt sell branches you should upgrade them into a magic wand
Nice write up, I feel like among lower level players the importance of support heroes isn't fully understood... especially the need for courier and WARDS through out the game >.< I play support quite a bit, so I've grown pretty accustomed to being a ward whore.
I think it would be handy to mention more jobs that a support needs to fulfill, such as creep pulling, assistance in rune control, positioning in team battles, etc., but I suppose those are more specific aspects. A lot of people get tired of playing support but I find the intricacies to the job, and the satisfaction when you know that you saved basically your whole team (Dazzle? Abbadon?) quite rewarding.
On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote: Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
Lina = Pyromancer
There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is.
Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell
Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles.
Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor?
Plague Riders ulti only ministuns on the first target, which Lichs ultimate does too.
I am not sure if the same dynamic exists in Dota but heroes like ES and Sand King usually transition into the teams initiator and are relied upon for a ton of damage because of their ults + blink dagger as the game goes on.
I understand your previous point on "matering" a hero verse simply playing the hero, but i would imagine this is pretty core to their role and would immediately shoot them into the hard category?
Any epic games recently? There must be a ton of pros in the beta so there has to be some awesome matchups going on?
On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote: Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
Lina = Pyromancer
There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is.
Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell
Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles.
Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor?
Plague Riders ulti only ministuns on the first target, which Lichs ultimate does too.
I am not sure if the same dynamic exists in Dota but heroes like ES and Sand King usually transition into the teams initiator and are relied upon for a ton of damage because of their ults + blink dagger as the game goes on.
I understand your previous point on "matering" a hero verse simply playing the hero, but i would imagine this is pretty core to their role and would immediately shoot them into the hard category?
Any epic games recently? There must be a ton of pros in the beta so there has to be some awesome matchups going on?
ESWC Grand Finals Na'Vi vs monkey game 1. Dendi's Pudge. Shows insane map awareness and game sense.
I enjoy being a support hero at times, especially Lich. It is quite satisfying to bounce your ulti off the entire team and genocide them as a support hero.
On November 02 2011 11:26 Jacobine wrote: I enjoy being a support hero at times, especially Lich. It is quite satisfying to bounce your ulti off the entire team and genocide them as a support hero.
i've gotten a quad kill with VS' wave before. :D granted i was following up an ES ult, it was still awesome.
On November 02 2011 11:26 Jacobine wrote: I enjoy being a support hero at times, especially Lich. It is quite satisfying to bounce your ulti off the entire team and genocide them as a support hero.
What I find really awesome as lich is the positional effect your ult has in team fights. Any good team will instantly spread as soon as they see the plague ult causing a unique opportunity to pick off heroes and zone out carries with stuns.
Either that or your ult will do terrible terrible damage
I just got an email from Steam and had to submit some additional PC specs through a Steam Survey. It said additional beta keys would be rolling out in the next few weeks so I'm really crossing my fingers I get one!
On November 01 2011 05:41 Primadog wrote: I never went competitive in DotA one, despite playing it causally for a year, because I was always infactuated with the hero Razer as a concept. I just really like the idea of a zippy hero without a escape mechanism that can be mended as the game develops into any role with the right items.
Have you played Razer yet? Does it feel the same as it was in Dota?
Judging by recent videos, the attack animation looks a hell lot easier to work with 8D
Although the role of the support is greatest in the early and mid game, it might still be worth talking about their role as the game gets more drawn out. In particular, there are a bunch of nice support items they can build which really help in team engagements. For auras and aoe there is mekanism, jango, medallion, khadgars, vladimir and veil of discord. For general utility and enemy disable there is necronomicon, forcestaff, orchids, euls and guinsoo.
Is Gondar in the beta? Also I wonder if anyone actually ever plays him. He is my favorite hero, and when I was playing a lot of dota back in the day very few used him. At least I hope they give him a cool model in dota 2.
I disagree in this blog. Yeah you can say that some heroes are supportive, but in DotA as far as high levels goes, there are MANY ways to play a hero. Sand King is not the typical support just to point out an example. But this blog is good for players who wanna get into Dota 2 but as you get further you see that it is not the simple in terms of hero roles.
On November 03 2011 06:06 snuppe wrote: I disagree in this blog. Yeah you can say that some heroes are supportive, but in DotA as far as high levels goes, there are MANY ways to play a hero. Sand King is not the typical support just to point out an example. But this blog is good for players who wanna get into Dota 2 but as you get further you see that it is not the simple in terms of hero roles.
This is totally wrong. The higher you get, the less ways there are to play a hero, since people are playing closer and closer to optimal levels. Heroes have roles because that's what they're best at. You can't carry in a competitive game with Sand King, but at lower levels you could. Playing Sand King as anything besides ganking/support would be an automatic loss at higher levels of play.
Oh man this was good writen. I do really appreciate this and I think our community does as well after the comments I have read from this and your earlier blogs ofc.
In soul I am an support too and from an interview with NaVi they said the gameleader is best as a support, and I like to think of myself as a leader and always liking to help other people out and do the "boring" job which I found fun to do. Enigma is definitealy my favorite hero and I am quite good with him but I don't think he is that hard to play, maybe just me who have got a good feeling for it or something. Thanks for the guide though I appreciate all ur blogs and Flamewheels Anti-mage blog was pretty sick too and kick ass long.
Thanks, bumblebee for making the guide, it is nice for something quick and easy you can take a look a look at of any of the listed heroes and be like, ok this is what I have to do. Are you going to be doing Initiator hero guides, or just focusing on support?
On November 03 2011 06:06 snuppe wrote: I disagree in this blog. Yeah you can say that some heroes are supportive, but in DotA as far as high levels goes, there are MANY ways to play a hero. Sand King is not the typical support just to point out an example. But this blog is good for players who wanna get into Dota 2 but as you get further you see that it is not the simple in terms of hero roles.
This is totally wrong. The higher you get, the less ways there are to play a hero, since people are playing closer and closer to optimal levels. Heroes have roles because that's what they're best at. You can't carry in a competitive game with Sand King, but at lower levels you could. Playing Sand King as anything besides ganking/support would be an automatic loss at higher levels of play.
You are misunderstanding the point of what i'm saying. Ofcourse you play the heroes roles in high levels but! as you mention yourself Sand King can be played as ganker/support and for me that is two different things and that is what i don't like with blogs like this. The heroes are sat into categories but some can be played many various ways than others.
On October 31 2011 22:32 MaKfejA wrote: I think we've all waited more than long enough for Valve to give us the beta. This blog just makes me want it more and more! I also love supporting in this game, it's much more fun than simply healbotting all day. It's a ridiculously complex task, but this guides (and others like it) really help new players IMO.
Yeah I know how you feel. Used to play hon and feel in love with supporting (cuz my fps/ping was so bad, I couldn't carry for shit because of the lag, so I played support. Ended up getting pretty good at it, and so I now play support when I pub with my friends on Garena Dota. Fav hero is thrall, because he has a pretty high skill cap and has cool as shit spells. He's also pretty item independent, yet can still maximise effectiveness by So yeah, thats why I like support. Also Phoniex is fun as hell.
Crystal Maiden such a amazing hero for supporting all team.TideHunter/Enigma/ES/Dazzle/Ancient Apparition and SK pretty popular in pro scene.Sven is more like tank for me.Lich/Lion/Lina is pretty good,if you want to dominate game in first 10 minutes.Also i feel like you can play every role with Windrunner,pretty sick hero.Not sure about witch doctor,because i never liked this hero. Enchantress is like Enigma,if you know how to play NC/Support.
Where is Chen? This hero pretty popular to in pro scene for support.
I would like to try Vengeful Spirit,sadly no dota key for me >.<
Support has never been my strongest role, actually it's my weakest.
Playing Support is definitely a whole new game. You have to work with little money and sacrifice your own character progression in the game to help the team. A good Support definitely makes or breaks a team (pretty much like any other role, really) by having good presence of mind of knowing when to ward, when to lane, when to TP, and when to roam.
I'm not familiar with item pics in dota 2, but why arent luxuries including items such as janggo, medallion, mekansm? Those are items with cheap build up componenets, and give quite the boost when u complete it with decent stats for it's cost (not to mention the clutch difference during mid battle.
also, i never knew if comp play used this. if you already bought all this luxury/core stuff, what about buying healing items for ur carries/team. Is that against the rules? i thought that was allowed as long as players dont resell it back to fountain
Anyways, I played dota long long ago and was never aware of the concept of jungling till I started playing LoL. Currently getting ready to go back to dota, and I'm definitely interested in the jungling supports mentioned. Do you think you could do a guide on jungling basics or whatnot?
I know there is a big Warining to not bump this thread since it's two months old. But since the beginning of the dota 2 coverage from TL and now the thread "Welcome to beta" this will get active again. Thanks so much Bumblebee. I'm starting to play it and i feel that when u play a support ppl get less harsh on you. That's probably the class i will stick for a while so this thread is simple amazing. Combined with the wards positioning thread this is gonna be fun.
Do you think the skill sceilling for a support is less stressing than a carry or a semi-carry role? at least with the easy heroes you list in the section?
I think support is one of the hardest roles to play if you're playing competatively. Everything becomes different in public games, but it requires a different skill-set than the other roles but it's definitely not easier. Mechanically maybe a little bit as you don't have to lasthit, etc. but when you talk about decision making, map awareness and all that stuff it's definitely as hard if not harder.
Support is my favorite role. Games are won on the frail, item-less backs of support players. That being said you can only be as strong as your carries. If they don't get the farm they need or the levels and kills, you're probably just going to die alot.
So Basically in noob games it's hard to play a game-changing support since you are allways dependant in your carry. Hard life indeed. So much to learn still :D
On September 05 2012 05:52 Bumblebee wrote: I think support is one of the hardest roles to play if you're playing competatively. Everything becomes different in public games, but it requires a different skill-set than the other roles but it's definitely not easier. Mechanically maybe a little bit as you don't have to lasthit, etc. but when you talk about decision making, map awareness and all that stuff it's definitely as hard if not harder.
I think this has a lot to do with players not being able to practice support in a competitive place consistently. Most support players play carries/semi carries in pubs and it really does play differently from pub games where you need to be more aware and more sneaky around better players.
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So kind of you to give away these beta keys, this is awesome =)
jk. I think es is my favourite support to have in my team but ihate playing him
nice write up and interesting read, it's good to see another person's insight on support, people really need to realize that it's not as easy as some say it is.
