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On November 01 2011 12:34 Kenpachi wrote:
I hope you didnt give out the keys yet :o!
I see so many people typing walls of text and im unable to impress you because i cant say much but im eager to play DotA and im super excited. i admire its diversity compared to LoL and the game looks so crisp and clean atm. I was never a support player though so :x
He's just going to randomly give away the key assuming your post doesn't suck which it doesn't, so don't worry!
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Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol).
Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is 
Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
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On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote:Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol). Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-.
Well, from that list:
Str:
Earthshaker = Behemoth
Sand King = Magmus
Sven = Hammerstorm
Tidehunter is similar to Kraken, but not a direct copy.
Agi:
Vengeful Spirit = Andromeda
Venomancer = Slyther
Int:
Windrunner is somewhat similar to Aluna, but not a direct copy.
Crystal Maiden = Glacius
Lich = Plague Raider
Lion = Witch Slayer
Witch doctor = Vodoo Jester with some small diferences
Enigma = Tempest
Lina = Pyromancer
Dazzle = Demented Shaman, with some diferences
Chen = Ophelia
Ancient Aparition is unlike anything in HoN
Enchantress as well has nothing similar in HoN
Carrying as a suport can be hilarious and effective, depending on the level you are playing at. It's definatelly fun to do from time to time.
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On November 01 2011 21:48 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote:Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol). Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-. Lina = Pyromancer
There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is.
Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor.
Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell
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On November 01 2011 23:01 Canas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 21:48 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote:Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol). Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-. Lina = Pyromancer There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is. Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell
Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles.
Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor?
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On November 01 2011 23:31 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:01 Canas wrote:On November 01 2011 21:48 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote:Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol). Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-. Lina = Pyromancer There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is. Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles. Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor?
Pyro is not a physical carry, she does do respecatable damage later on with items but nowhere near a carry. Slither's wards are a ton weaker, they give less vision and iirc are less spammable.
Also about the main post. One thing I really disagree with is behemoth being an easy hero. Sure you can play him by just throwing outa stun here and there and having nice long range. The hero is really quite bad aside from that and theres so much wasted potential. A good fissue is easily a fb and the delay on the majority of his skills make timing somewhat difficult at times. That and still being a good gank/roamer and getting a decently timed portal key etc is important.
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On November 01 2011 23:31 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:01 Canas wrote:On November 01 2011 21:48 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote:Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol). Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-. Lina = Pyromancer There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is. Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles. Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor?
Plague Riders ulti only ministuns on the first target, which Lichs ultimate does too.
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Cyclone stick's icon looks pretty cool, definitely very different from Eul's in DotA.
I think it's been mentioned a few times earlier, but buying extra healing items (salves, tangos) for your mid or side solo can be a very good choice, especially if you're doing a trilane. I suppose this is a bit more advanced and more often used in organized games, so maybe it doesn't have a place in this series of introductory blogs.
Well written, by the way. Very informative.
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On November 01 2011 23:47 Bumblebee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:31 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 23:01 Canas wrote:On November 01 2011 21:48 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote:Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol). Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-. Lina = Pyromancer There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is. Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles. Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor? Plague Riders ulti only ministuns on the first target, which Lichs ultimate does too.
Yeah, that was my mistake, I believe they still reworked his shield didn't they? Anyway, I didn't mean to be this off-topic, it was just suposed to be a list so people that started at HoN have an idea about how those heroes work. If you want to nitpick, one of the biggest diference I would see when switching from suport in HoN to suport in Dota is the attack animations. Pyromancer/Lina is probally the biggest example, followed by CM/Glacius, but a lot of the mentioned heroes feel a lot harder to lasthit/deny in Dota.
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I have another question for anyone who's played the beta. Is microing easier in DotA 2? I mean in War3 you're using that RTS game engine for hotkeys and things that help you micro your dominated units. Is there a similar hotkey system in DotA 2 or is it something different that makes it slightly easier to micro with chen?
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United States2822 Posts
Awesome guide, especially for those of us who like playing Intelligence/support heroes but have been away from the game for quite some time. I know that I, in particular, have had huge difficulty adjusting back to DotA-style mechanics after playing League of Legends for so long.
I just have to get used to the new icons for items and heroes. I still don't recognize the difference between the boots and stuff. :<
EDIT: Whoa, my 1500th post on the 150th post of this topic. Crazy. Also, hello Reaver icon.
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On November 01 2011 23:37 Nub4ever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:31 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 23:01 Canas wrote:On November 01 2011 21:48 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote:Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol). Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-. Lina = Pyromancer There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is. Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles. Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor? Pyro is not a physical carry, she does do respecatable damage later on with items but nowhere near a carry. Slither's wards are a ton weaker, they give less vision and iirc are less spammable.
It obviously depends on your team lineup, if your team's got a hero like madman or puppet master, you're clearly not going to run your pyro as the main carry of your team, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so, assuming both teams allow for it (vindicator for example shuts this down hard because you need the attack speed buff during team fights), but she can be run as the same kind of carry as for example a soulstealer (shadow fiend), which is more of a midgame/semi-carry, and she's quite flexible when played like that as well, you can have her solo a lane, or you can run a trilane with outrageously high kill potential (ie pyro/magmus/myrmidon).
Point is, she doesn't really have the same role in hon (though she is run as support on occasion) as she does in dota, while all other heroes fill the same role more or less.
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Are you planning on doing any hero guides? I just recently been doing noob inhouses with some LoL mates and many of the playdota guides are outdated.
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When I usually support i buy two wards 4 branches and 1-2 sets of tangos i think that is the most efficient for me because it allows me to be aggressive and deny while having the ability to sell branches if i need to pick something up since they have the highest sell ratio in the game.
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On November 02 2011 04:39 Spicy_Curry wrote:
When I usually support i buy two wards 4 branches and 1-2 sets of tangos i think that is the most efficient for me because it allows me to be aggressive and deny while having the ability to sell branches if i need to pick something up since they have the highest sell ratio in the game.
you shouldnt sell branches you should upgrade them into a magic wand
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Nice write up, I feel like among lower level players the importance of support heroes isn't fully understood... especially the need for courier and WARDS through out the game >.< I play support quite a bit, so I've grown pretty accustomed to being a ward whore.
I think it would be handy to mention more jobs that a support needs to fulfill, such as creep pulling, assistance in rune control, positioning in team battles, etc., but I suppose those are more specific aspects. A lot of people get tired of playing support but I find the intricacies to the job, and the satisfaction when you know that you saved basically your whole team (Dazzle? Abbadon?) quite rewarding.
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Anyone else still waiting for geomancer?
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Australia8532 Posts
On November 01 2011 23:47 Bumblebee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:31 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 23:01 Canas wrote:On November 01 2011 21:48 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote:Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol). Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-. Lina = Pyromancer There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is. Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles. Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor? Plague Riders ulti only ministuns on the first target, which Lichs ultimate does too.
I am not sure if the same dynamic exists in Dota but heroes like ES and Sand King usually transition into the teams initiator and are relied upon for a ton of damage because of their ults + blink dagger as the game goes on.
I understand your previous point on "matering" a hero verse simply playing the hero, but i would imagine this is pretty core to their role and would immediately shoot them into the hard category?
Any epic games recently? There must be a ton of pros in the beta so there has to be some awesome matchups going on?
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On November 02 2011 10:38 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:47 Bumblebee wrote:On November 01 2011 23:31 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 23:01 Canas wrote:On November 01 2011 21:48 SKC wrote:On November 01 2011 21:36 SenorChang wrote:Really nice write up. Never played the original Dota so this is helpful (although I played a decent amount of HoN - but can't distinguish which hero is similar lol). Understanding support is so crucial to a game, especially when people don't understand what babysitting the carry is Or try to be the carry as a support - seen it happen far too many times -_-. Lina = Pyromancer There are actually a few subtle differences between these two, because in hon, Pyromancer is mainly played as an intelligence carry because of how good fervor is. Wave does 30 more damage in hon which is always nice I guess, but fiery soul can't even compare to fervor. Fiery soul gives you a 60% attack speed and 6% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times, fervor gives you +40 cast speed, and it gives each of your attacks a 4 second 4 dps dot, which stacks, both of these being passive, as well as a 50% attack speed and 5% movement speed buff that stacks 3 times when you cast a spell Well, yeah, Plague Rider's ulti also ministuns and he has higher move speed, Andromeda has max stun duration on level one, I believe Glacius ultimate is less random, Slyther wards work slightly diferently, i believe Behemoth's ulti works the same way ES used to before the change, Hammerstorm cleave is bigger, etc. Most ports from Dota were actually buffed in HoN, so it's hard to find a hero that works 100% like the Dota counterpart. In my post, slightly diferences meant a reworked skill, like Vodoo Jester's heal, but the concept of the hero stayed the same. Adding every little change would be too much, and honestly most of them don't really matter, specially since we are talking about those heroes in suport roles. Is Pyromancer really played as a physical carry in competitive HoN because of fervor? Plague Riders ulti only ministuns on the first target, which Lichs ultimate does too. I am not sure if the same dynamic exists in Dota but heroes like ES and Sand King usually transition into the teams initiator and are relied upon for a ton of damage because of their ults + blink dagger as the game goes on. I understand your previous point on "matering" a hero verse simply playing the hero, but i would imagine this is pretty core to their role and would immediately shoot them into the hard category? Any epic games recently? There must be a ton of pros in the beta so there has to be some awesome matchups going on?
ESWC Grand Finals Na'Vi vs monkey game 1. Dendi's Pudge. Shows insane map awareness and game sense.
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I enjoy being a support hero at times, especially Lich. It is quite satisfying to bounce your ulti off the entire team and genocide them as a support hero.
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EPT
