I find myself itching to discuss and share some content with the community today. I was thinking after playing a ladder game earlier this afternoon that one thing I find interesting is how spiteful people get over such ambiguous terms such as all-in and cheese...I cannot deny that I personally have built a bit of a reputation for being all-in for those that know me as a player. I don't really have any issues with that but it has lead to some amusing exchanges over the months on ladder. (some good ones and other comments shared below throughout this blog) I often wonder, whats the difference between blindly allining every game and actually playing smart and playing to win? In general most people can come to agreement on what the terms, allin, cheese and strategic play could mean on a broad level, but when you start taking a closer look I find people have vastly different opinions. I feel cheese and allins hurt the game from a spectator standpoint because it's simply more fun to watch a 45 minute macro game with huge armies being controlled perfectly vs some random 8 minute attack with all scvs pulled ending a game immediately. Nearly any professional player you ask will tell you cheese and allins are bad and will not help you improve at all as a player. I feel If you asked 10 people you might get 10 different answers as to what an all-in actually is. Which makes it kind of silly when somebody looks at a build and says "That's so all-in." All-In players aren't respected as much (nor should they be) because it's much easier to luckbox a win off a top tier player with a silly timing attack than it is to actually outplay them in a macro game.
IdrA isn't pleased with retarded cheese.
Some people will look at a build needing to do damage or your behind. Hence it could be coined "an all-in build" but what is the player doing the build really thinking? Is someone winning with blind luck? Are they actually all-ining? Are they responding to something that they've scouted or from past practice experience? I remember a broodwar game from years ago of Boxer vs someone (all I know is it was a TvT on bluestorm) where boxer proxy 2 rax and was going bio (unheard of in TvT broodwar, you NEVER went bio in that matchup) but had such an amazing followup plan and transitioned into a normal game extremely nicely which didn't make the build feel cheesy or allin at all. (Huge props if someone can find this game based off this information) I think something that's mentioned on liquipedia regarding allins is quite insightful.
The term all-in has its roots in Poker. A player who puts all of their money/chips into the pot on a single hand is going "all-in". Similarly in StarCraft, a player is considered all-in when he executes a strategy, usually a large attack that commits all their units, that has no planned follow-up. If the strategy fails he will typically tap out, concede defeat and the game will end.
simply having a follow up PLAN after the attack or "all-in" maneuver might make it not all-in? One very popular korean term for what foreigners blatantly call an all-in is "He used strategic play."(this could just be a translation thing as there isn't really a word for "All-In" the same way in korean?) Something you tend to see at high levels vs opponents who play each other regularly for example if MVP plays Nestea dozens of times and knows what his most preferred playstyle is, would he try to abuse it in any way? Would it be considered All-in or bad?
Players like RapDawg are quite content serving up 2,000 games of nothing but baneling busts with plenty of Sup Son on the side.
While in general allins are pretty awful for improving yourself as a player in general, they make for easy wins (especially as a terran player with mules/autorepair scvs). I think in order to be a more well rounded player mixing in All-Ins can be quite beneficial for nothing else other than to increase your depth as a player or to help when you might be tilting hardcore. At MLG Raleigh two of my favorite foreign terran players faced off. KawaiiRice vs Demuslim in championship winners bracket 1, kawaii went into the match up 2-0 since he beat Demuslim in the open bracket. Demuslim made a few adjustments playing these games which literally seemed to put Kawaii on full tilt. Kawaii was quite stubborn though and seemed to continue to try playing standard when it was clear he was mentally shot/being outplayed in every way. Was that the best decision? At what point to you mix it up? I think a big part of it depends on the player. Some people might not know this but there are top players who are much better at adapting or freestyling. TLO for example has amazing decision making and flexibility as a player in general, it really allows for him to do well in weirder situation games. A player like Major who relies more on mechanics, if the game falters off its usual track even at any point, he is more prone to making mistakes. Of course this is my personal opinion from observing games of both players. The casual viewer might not notice things like this but it's true. TLO might be more prone to using "Strategic play" than major why? because the game is more likely to get thrown off its usual course if you decide to push with a more risky build.
What is true skill? Being able to sit around and do nothing all game and win?
Is it harder for TLO to hide a proxy starport or Major to win a 45 minute macro game? Obviously playing for a macro game is harder in general and requires more skill. But I think a big part of the context of the situation is the players gameplan and mindset AROUND the build and not just the build itself. A player who proxys a starport hoping to win the game with his banshee will obviously be worse off than a TLO who proxys the starport in order to try and do damage but will clearly have a plan behind this play. That in my opinion is where the term All-In or cheese is really gray. Sure its cheesy to proxy any buildings. Was MMA vs MVP GSL finals last week cheesy for MMA to proxy 2 rax and a factory right outside of MVP's base? Of course it was cheesy but it was also smart becuase MMA knew there was a HIGH likely hood of MVP doing his favorite TvT build on a map as big as daybreak (gasless fast expand)
Who's "they"? The secret all-in committee?
One of the real negative tones people have in general of the Terran race in SC2 is it's the most allin race. I think Terran is the easiest race to win fluke games but the hardest to win standard. The macro mechanics of Zerg just automatically seem to make it a race ready for the late game. While Protoss maxed armies seem to be extremely cost efficient (especially in PvZ) Terran late game can be quite good with the right unit compositions and positioning but in general I think it's slightly harder getting to that point effectively.
Typically avilo isn't pleased if the game is over before the 45 minute mark. Something All-Ins and Cheese tend to do
There are also players who might never attack for an hour. Is this more fun to watch than a more aggressive all-in oriented player? Watching grass grow is about as interesting for some people. This is why some people tend to dislike TvT although since the blueflame nerf more players are back to going more bio or marine/tank strategies which I think are much more exiting than the blueflame drops and mass mech you were seeing near the end of patch 1.3.
And then on the extreme opposite side you have players like BitByBit who are literally the definition of cheese and all-in. I think I can speak for the majority that everyone hated BitByBit's games and run in the GSL. Is watching a 35 scv autorepair pull + marines that fun to watch 6 times in a row? I think not. Especially at a time in the development of sc2 where it seemed nearly unbeatable.
At the end of the day I think All-In's have a place in starcraft 2. I think in general they can be fun to watch a good player use and use effectively. The game is still evolving and I think most builds that seemed overpowered or imba started getting figured out or patched slightly. For example the 1-1-1 build was quite bad for a while but has mellowed out lately it seems...
(ALL Replays posted here were played on the North American ladder vs Grandmaster/High Masters players)
IdrA seems to know what cheese is, or does he? All-in? Cheese? Or neither? You decide. + Show Spoiler +
1rax FE into gasless 5rax marine push with a marauder switch + fast 3rd = All-in or Cheese? You decide. + Show Spoiler +
Same build as above. Is this All-In? Strategic? Dumb Luck? + Show Spoiler +
*Note about those two games, I really love this gasless 5rax build TvP (getting more popular in korea lately TvT/TvP?) because it leaves so many minerals to take a fast 3rd and continue with 5rax production as well as tech behind it. It's really safe against alot of protoss allins and you dont have to push with marines if you scout 3 or 4gate before expo or even 1gate expo into 3gate stalker which in my opinion is the best counter to this build.
Perfect tends to blame blizzard more than the player, this is totally up to the individual who is losing to said All-In.
1-1-1 with a significant number of scvs pulled is an All-In strategy? Cheese? Does faking an expansion make this more of a strategic play than an all-in? The attack must work though or the game is lost for the terran. Hence it's All-In and required no skill? + Show Spoiler +
Deezer become quite notorious early on in sc2 for all-ining and stream sniping/cheating.
At the end of the day I think everyone is going to have their own opinion on All-In vs Cheese vs Strategic play...it all has a place in the sc2 world and I think we should appreciate the depth it adds to the game. I also would like to thank my strategic play coach SadistX for allowing me to get to a point in my sc2 career where guys I don't even know on TL call me out for being a 1basing noob. :D
Have you ever played as toss against terran who brings a couple of SCV's and just fucking all-ins you? Trust me, it's a lot easier to terran all-in attacks like 1-1-1 than it is to defend it. Kind of like 4 gating, but thank god that's gone.
On October 30 2011 06:52 LuckyFool wrote: I remember a broodwar game from years ago of Boxer vs someone (all I know is it was a TvT on bluestorm) where boxer proxy 2 rax and was going bio (unheard of in TvT broodwar, you NEVER went bio in that matchup) but had such an amazing followup plan and transitioned into a normal game extremely nicely which didn't make the build feel cheesy or allin at all. (Huge props if someone can find this game based off this information)
On October 30 2011 07:24 hazelynut wrote: I AM THE TRUE BW FAN
jk lol but still i claim all bragging rights for discovering a video on youtube.
I spent so much time trying to delete his 4 page essay while trying to quote that one part I needed and U had to go and post the link before me t.t
edit: but yea i guess u were like me and couldn't forget that game either. As soon as I read the description of the game I knew exactly what game he was talking about. I can never forget the game becuz as luckyfool mentioned it was just one of the most strategically thought out games i ever seen in my life.
LuckyFool, 16:13:01: actually I should take one quali and just allin
LuckyFool, 16:13:06: practice allins
LuckyFool, 16:13:15: or at least allin in the top 4 when I get there
I am extremely honored to have been mentioned in a Luckyfool blog. I mentioned that he should practice more allins when BW was still the only game we have known, and he did reach C+ or something like that in a few days with cheeses and allins.
This probably proved useful considering how SC2 turned out in general (much more allin based and geared towards 1-2 base play, at least in the beginning stages of the metagame).
If i lose to a 6pool, i'll still say GG, because its my mistake for not scouting properly. (Only games i dont say GG is if i'm to frustrated by my own mistakes).
On October 30 2011 07:24 hazelynut wrote: I AM THE TRUE BW FAN
jk lol but still i claim all bragging rights for discovering a video on youtube.
I spent so much time trying to delete his 4 page essay while trying to quote that one part I needed and U had to go and post the link before me t.t
ROFL!!! <3
both of you are awesome.
and you both win btw since hazely is a shortened vid and britnoob's is the actual game. :D
tyty!
I don't play sc2, but this discussion does also make sense in bw, and that was a nice blog. Plus props for the allusion for what might be the best "strategical play" I have ever seen.
On October 30 2011 06:52 LuckyFool wrote: At the end of the day I think everyone is going to have their own opinion on All-In vs Cheese vs Strategic play...it all has a place in the sc2 world and I think we should appreciate the depth it adds to the game. I also would like to thank my strategic play coach SadistX for allowing me to get to a point in my sc2 career where guys I don't even know on TL call me out for being a 1basing noob. :D
It's funny because that guy who called you a "1 base noob" rarely does anything besides 2 base allins/"strategic plays".
i think most of them are just frustrated with their own lack of skills and talents when whining and bitching about all ins. Remember the thing between stork vs kwanro? someone process with real skills and confidence will lash out by saying he will never lose to kwanro again?
People have a misconception about what skills are in sc2, skills are all the things that we can do in this game to win. micro, macro, timing, strategy planing, meta-gaming, scouting... these are some of the skills, all are equally important.
people also don't know what are the talents that allow people to excel at this game, talents in this game is the ability to always make the right decision under stress and pressure, the more right decision the more talents!
That's why some people can be very skilled but not very talented, talent is the difference between flash and mvp, and this is how the big 3 maintain 70% win rate for years when almost everybody they play with are rough equal to them mechanically.
1-1-1 with a significant number of scvs pulled is an All-In strategy? Cheese? Does faking an expansion make this more of a strategic play than an all-in? The attack must work though or the game is lost for the terran. Hence it's All-In and required no skill?
Pulling a significant number of scvs does indeed make it an all-in yes.
after mlg providence I actually plan to practice bw for a couple weeks in order to play a grudge/show match vs caucasianasian(TL Staff/bw player) so you guys better be on the lookout for that !!
we're doing it a little after providence so I have time to actually practice some. I'm scared though...bw is so hard. T_T
On October 30 2011 09:47 LuckyFool wrote: after mlg providence I actually plan to practice bw for a couple weeks in order to play a grudge/show match vs caucasianasian(TL Staff/bw player) so you guys better be on the lookout for that !!
we're doing it a little after providence so I have time to actually practice some. I'm scared though...bw is so hard. T_T
I think this is partially why very hyped finals between two players who know each other well can be so disappointing. Think of all the JD vs Flash finals and how many of those have one trying to cheese the other. Theyre just playing each other on a mental level which is harder to appreciate for viewers.
Look at something like this. It is clearly an all-in by JD, but done in response to the 14 cc he scouted. Im curious what people think of this game.
Nice read. I like that you are complicating what has come to be a highly subjective, yet widely-used term.
Imo, people need a word to express that element in SCII that is exploitable...that thing that has little to do with skill. And here, you note that certain "all-ins" do have follow-up plans (hence, they're not all-in in a pure sense). And you also note the grey area where a player might be all-inning due to something he has scouted. In general, playing at a lowly diamond level, I tend to see my opponents practicing mindless all-ins. But I have no proof of this.
tl;dr I think there are various motivations and various levels of skill and planning that go into the various build and strats that people call "all-in." I don't think there is any resolution to this ambiguity; however, I don't think the frustrations will end.
At the end of the day, we all have been beaten by players who seem to lack skill--and there is something about SCII (be it easy mechanics, or difficulty of scouting) that allows for the less-skilled to exploit the more skilled for wins. Call it what you will. For now, we call it an "all-in."
On October 30 2011 15:02 alexlw92 wrote: whats the difference between, say, a "2 base push", "2 base timing attack" and a "2 base all in"?
a push is undefined really, everyone just throws the term around now for anything. Being a guy from BW, A 2 base push has always been a slow progression across the map towards your opponent (such as Tank/turret/mine pushing in TvP). But these days people seem to be using it mostly as a term that SF players call a poke. It's just an attack or fake attack that is used to keep the opponent on their toes or kill them if they skimped on units/defenses. 2 base timing and 2 base all in are pretty much synonymous imho, The minor difference arguable is that the all in is an uneducated attack such as 'the destiny build' in ZvZ. By uneducated, I mean that they go into the matchup with the mentality of doing the all in build regardless of what they scout or see the opponent do. And in fact, with the Destiny build, he actually advocated no need for scouting, and cited the build being super gay because its all ZvZ is and everyone was doin it.
A 2 base timing then would obviously be the same or similar build adapted to the opponents build's weakness to strike and kill them right on the timing when they are weakest.
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